[Infiltrator or Lethality for Medicine Ops?]

As far as I know, the speed buff from Infiltrator only applies to stealth speed. You're probably not spending that much time in stealth as a healer.

[Lethality vs Concealment pvp ?]

Concealment will always beat lethality. Simple fact.

 

If they HS you then stunlock- absolutely. I've been taken down from full health to nothing in under five seconds by conceal Scoundrels in 50 WZ's (saying that, I'm not full champ-geared yet). If you catch them in the open and can kite them and keep those DOTs up, it's a different story. But yes, I've been running a lethality build and except against squishy healers it's extremely difficult to burst people down and we're just too squishy for a prolonged fight.

[Can you make Take Cover clear DoTs?]

Why should we get a free DOTs cleanse? We already have two- toxin scan and evasion. The only thing we can't clear is Force DOTs, and I think even those might be cleansed with evasion.

[Overload shot]

It's nice for bursting down weakened enemies as a lethality Op. I probably wouldn't use it for conceal or pure heals though. Its greatest advantage comes from the fact that it has no CD except global and is instant, so you can spam it as long as your energy holds whilst running circles around your opponent.

[suggestion on improving lethality]

I'd be happy with making overload shot share a cooldown with shiv and allowing it to proc our TA. Then we get to be the mid-range dps that we were always meant to be.

 

I agree completely with this. Overload shot is an ability that screams 'lethality' but it's very underused. They could work this into 'Cut Down' (tier 3) so that two points gives you a 100% to proc TA from overload shot (currently 'cut down' increases overload shot/carbine burst/cull damage by 6%).

[New Lethality changes- 29/03]

On the other hand, cleanse won't reduce the effectiveness of cull, which was probably the point.

 

That's a great point, actually. The DOTs, talented with Lethal Injectors and Lingering Toxins, give you what- 27 seconds to cull a DOT'ed target?

[! The New and Improved "Shadowstep" Bill for Concealment !]

Snipe looks good on paper but the fact is, it does ranged damage meaning it can be mitigated/deflected/blocked. At level 50, it would do 1k damage if you're lucky.

 

Explosive Probe is decent, but it requires you to crouch, use Probe, then attack the opponent, all while standing still.

 

At level 50, my blaster rifle does peanuts for damage since nearly all of it is mitigated. Its only real purpose is to stop caps or tag stealthers.

 

I use Frag Grenade and Explosive Probe not because they are good abilities, but because we have nothing better.

 

'Nothing better' is better than 'nothing', surely? I'm not saying that we should blindly accept whatever crumbs BW throws us, but pure melees don't have those options, right? I still haven't got an answer on what a mara can do if they're knocked into the pit and their leap is on CD, but I'm guessing very little. We can at least throw some ranged support into the mix. Don't forget corrosive dart too, which isn't a bad DOT even unspecced.

[New Lethality changes- 29/03]

The TA gen issue still sucks, but two points in medicine gives you a free TA for a two-second casting time.

 

If it is actually only 15% of damage- well, that's great for an extra little bit of DOT after the effect ends, but for cleansing it's worthless. Luckily people rarely cleanse Op DOT's.

[Concealment vs Our Cousins: The Assassins Post 1.2 Patch]

If you want to play an Assassin so badly, please do so. Don't come and QQ here because you aren't capable of getting the most out of the abilities available to Operatives.

 

Operatives are great fun and really effective in the right hands. If you're not finding that then maybe yours aren't.

 

This. Seriously, Gaucho, you spend so much time ************ about Ops I have absolutely no idea why you bother playing one. You've made it clear from other threads you have no idea how to play an Op effectively, so go and bother some other class forums.

[New Lethality changes- 29/03]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=3463266&postcount=11

 

Lingering Toxins is a new Tier 6 skill that reduces damage taken from periodic effects and gives Corrosive Dart and Corrosive Grenade a chance to apply a weaker version of the same effect when they end (even if they are cleansed). *UPDATED 3/29*

 

Vanish has been replaced by Escape Plan, which now additionally reduces the cooldown of Escape. *UPDATED 3/29*

 

Never used Escape Plan so can't comment on that change, but Lingering Toxins could be great depending on the chance it grants. I'm guessing it's a two-point skill since Vanish is being absorbed into Escape Plan, and it eliminates the issue of easily cleansable DOTs.

[! The New and Improved "Shadowstep" Bill for Concealment !]

why do operatives need to think outside the box?

 

I think this quote pretty much sums it up.

 

while everyone else plays inside the box. There is no reason why i should work extra hard to achieve the same results or near to everyone else is doing. The fact that everyone has a GAP CLOSER is reality except for operatives. Like I said.

 

I'm really confused why you bother playing an Op. Go and build yourself a nice grav-spam trooper; I think that would suit your mentality and preferred play-style much better.

[Lethality PVP need]

I don't like pure lethality since I think weakening blast isn't worth it and I like the survivability of heals. I run a heal-heavy hybrid: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MffMzhRRzcZZhrMkM.1

 

Lethality is awesome and I much prefer it to concealment. Especially with going up to surgical probe, I'm very tough to kill and those DOTs stack up. People almost NEVER remove them. Since I don't have cull I have no need to get up close, and I mostly apply DOTs and spam explosive probe>snipe whilst keeping heals up on nearby team members. If I get attacked I debilitate>shiv>DOTs and apply shield probe and KP. It's amazing how many people will chase you for the kill and find themselves unable to overcome your healing before your DOTs weaken them enough for some quick burst to finish them off.

 

I also like the cull build, but even if I run that I'll still take KP at least to keep my health up. People simply don't see us as a threat and don't pay attention to our DOTs because lethality OP's are so rare. They're also unprepared for cull burst-damage and overload-shot spamming (a totally underrated Op ability IMO). If more people go Lethality in the future people might wise up to our tricks, but as it is right now it's a great class.

 

A quick note on overload shot, which is indispensable for Lethality Ops- it's a little energy-heavy, but does considerable damage, has no CD except global and is instant. You can burst weakened enemies down really quickly, especially if they're chasing you and you've got sever tendon on them.

[! The New and Improved "Shadowstep" Bill for Concealment !]

half the things you listed requires you to STOP MOVING when you are a melee class and your target is getting away from you. They energy cost for them is really high leaving you resource-empty if you spam them too quick and leaving you open to any target to crush you.

 

As far as the Catwalk goes, for almost every melee class there is, if you get blown off, you can get back up or pull your target back to you, while operatives have to run back in slow motion.

 

Since you have never played one I will ignore your assumptions.

 

*Sigh* You need to read what's written instead of strawman-ranting, champ. I said that in a pinch we can throw some ranged damage on a target. Can you not think of any situations in which it might be useful to put ranged damage on a fleeing target you physically cannot reach? Like SWTORBurns said, you're pretty much doing it wrong if you never, ever need to think outside the box and can only function as a one-dimensional AB-HS whore. I imagine that playstyle is also boring as hell.

 

Also, that wasn't an assumption, it was a question, but ignore away since you're so hellbent on sticking to your narrow-minded viewpoint anyway.

 

 

According to TORhead, you also have to STOP MOVING To accomplish that. What makes you think someone is gonna stand there and let you fire at them from range when you are not even a range class ( concealment )

 

Catwalk. You blown off. Ball carrier down to 2k health and will score if you don't stop them. Seriously, are you so dense you can't even conceive of a situation where our ranged attacks, limited though they may be, give us an edge over pure melee classes who've blown their gap closers?

 

All the other classes can keep doing what they are meant to do without having to use silly methods to accomplish the goal of their advanced class. Yet you say it is "OK to be" broken for the concealment spec. I think YOU are doing everything wrong.

 

And this is why you need to L2P- for you, 'silly methods' are using everything at your disposal to take someone down, even it's not your principal method of doing so. Sometimes conditions are less than ideal and you have to adapt, but I guess you face off against Rep teams of sages who turn around, face the wall and wait for your HS.

 

If you compare it to WoW, which is what this game is modeled after. EVERY CLASS has a Gap Closer or utility to help a team mate. Even Ret Paladins.

 

Go and play WoW then? Seriously, if this game stresses you out so much, why not just quit?

[! The New and Improved "Shadowstep" Bill for Concealment !]

Do you have these on your bars as concealment l50? Let me get this straight: I use 4x12bars, I use a razer naga, I have every single thing keybound (and the CD on the bar on the left I cannot see because ops window is on top of it), but I would not have space for snipe and explosive probe. I don't even use the cover/crouch mechanic as conceal.

 

I'm 49 so I have, what, one more ability coming, and I have every single talent I have mapped, bound, and on a bar as well as stims/adrenals. Crouch also has its own bar.

 

The abilities you mentioned are completely useless since they don't do much damage. You would be dead before the opponent is half health.

 

Explosive probe and snipe do no damage? According to TORhead, explosive probe hits for 3k+ before crits for a geared level 50 and snipe hits for 2.7k-3k. From personal experience I can attest to the fact that they produce some pretty nice burst damage. If you never, EVER use them then I have to doubt how good you are at dealing with any situation that isn't a big fat juicy healer sitting behind the combat with an unprotected back.

[Suggestion: Make Backstab + Acid blade give a TA.]

Right now Shiv is the only source of TA (out of stealth) and sometimes it has to be used for stim boost making our dps mediocre

 

Doesn't lacerate re-proc TA if the target is poisoned and it's talented correctly?

[Something I'd Like to see...]

I think lethality is great for sustainable (but slow) DPS to your target. Those DOT's get really pesky after a while, and I've often gotten assassin medals a couple of seconds after I've been taken down. I would strongly recommend a heal-lethality hybrid though- at least as far as Kolto Probe. Weakening blast simply isn't worth it and heals give you much more survivability. I'm currently favouring a deep heal build that takes me all the way up to accomplished doctor- you can solo pretty much anyone if you shiv/SP-spam and keep your DOT's ticking on them.

 

Pure lethality definitely needs work, though. At the very least, the KP TA proc should be mirrored by poison ticks granting a % chance to proc TA.

[! The New and Improved "Shadowstep" Bill for Concealment !]

I've been playing Operative since release, both Medicine and Conceal. I have to say, this is the best idea I've seen yet.

 

Of course I want a shadow step, that we be just amazing for me as a healer, escape those pesky situations.

 

I do believe that a gap closer ability would be amazing, but it will too closely mirror all the other classes. I don't want that, I enjoy my unique playstyle. Increasing our midrange abilities (say give us 20m attacks) would make conceal Operatives everywhere happy, and at the same time retaining our unique class mechanics.

 

I am main spec healer. No, these mid range attacks will not increase my healing utility by any means (except to finish off the pesky melee attackers), but I do not think healing needs more utility. We are getting a major buff in 1.2 and I'm pretty content with it (PvP oriented, do not know or care of 1.2's PvE impact).

 

Can it not be said that we have a decent amount of mid- and long-range attacks? Explosive probe, snipe, corrosive dart, thermal grenade, carbine burst... these all do very respectable damage. Even if you get blown off a catwalk in HB, you can still put the hurt on your target- not as much as you could from close if you're a conceal Op, but (and correct me if I'm wrong since I've never played one) doesn't a marauder with his leap on CD have pretty much no options?

[Something I'd Like to see...]

I was a bit pushed for time before, so I'll reply in more depth now:

 

This is probably something everyone has thought of, or at least mused about, but the sustained DPS of Ops/Scound seems to be kinda terrible. For the last 2 months (I think) I've been playing as lethality, and I have to say that it a really good continuous dps spec.

 

However, as the tree dictates, it should be a mid-range spec, thus, not needing to be butt-tight to mob/boss/player.

 

With Cull and Weakening blast, it already feels like a good mid-range spec... until you require a TA...

 

Blasted TA's, and the only thing that grants you a TA is a killing blow, Hidden strike, or shiv...

 

Now... there is some failed logic in this, wouldn't you say? If it's a mid range spec, why do I need to run up to my target, stab him, only to move back? Logically, I'm going to stay close to the target now, so I can get the shiv's in much easier.

 

Agree entirely. The only other feasible way is putting two points in medicine to proc a TA from Kolto Injection, which a pure lethality build should NOT be forced to do.

 

This shouldn't be like that. Personally, I'd like to see, overload shot have a top-ish tier talent in Lethality a %chance to grant a TA and I think the tree should mirror the Healing tree and that poison crits ticks have a chance to grant a TA.

 

Yep- it seems a completely natural feature of the class to proc TA's from DOT's. Apparently not, though.

 

There have been other posts, talking about how the number of TA's we can keep is too low, and I agree as well. I think that, given our position to maintain a solid amount of energy-regen (in Lethality) with the upgraded stim boost, as well as the odd adrenaline probe, I think we Operatives should have 3-4, and again, maybe something that goes high tier in the tree.

 

Apparently medicine is getting the ability to talent an extra TA, but it's fourth- or fifth-tier (I forget) and thus is of no use to lethality ops. Why not put a mirror talent in lethality?

 

One other thing, sort've maybe would help PvP as lethality, is maybe a high tiered talent that makes your poisons more RESISTANT to being cleansed? So maybe the first one doesn't take it off, but the second one does? You know, maybe get a tick or two off before a sorc/sage eats your face with lightning/pebbles? Thoughts?

 

I don't think it's necessarily fair to have the ability to put an uncleansable DOT on other players *cough*sorcs*cough*, but aren't there only a few classes that can cleanse tech DOTs anyway? I'm not entirely sure on this, since I pretty much only play my Op.

 

[...]

 

 

As for weakening blast:

 

...causes the target to take 30% extra damage from the agent's next 10 poison effects. This lasts 15 seconds.

 

Does this mean each tick of corrosive grenade/corrosive dart, or does it mean the next ten initiations of the two? I presume the former, but it doesn't make it clear and, as I said, I've never taken weakening blast.

 

EDIT- something that I think might make weakening blast more useful in terms of utility would be dropping the extra damage from the Agent's DOTs and doing one of the following:

 

1) Grant all allies attacking that target an x% bonus to damage for 15 seconds.

 

2) Make all DOTs uncleansable for 15 seconds.

[Something I'd Like to see...]

It was something I was thinking about too- namely, the complete lack of TA generators for lethality. It's a shame, because I love the look of the build, but I've settled for going as high as the corrosive-grenade stim boost talents and sticking mostly in heals. I simply do not understand why the devs would think that shiv as the sole source of TA generation is acceptable for pure lethality builds.

[Lethality... Never talked about?]

I've been running this build recently (at level 47 at the moment):

 

I love it. I'm doing great healing and decent damage in any WZ, but especially in Voidstar where you get all those Reps clumped up at the doors.

 

As Kerbang mentioned earlier up, it's great fun kiting melee classes. I had the exact same situation with a marauder last night- he came after me and I stunned, hit probe shield and KP, snared, DOT'ed and kited. He chased the squishy Op for a good thirty seconds before he realised my dots had eaten through his health and I was still at more or less full, and it was too late for him to run. Easiest assassin medal I ever earned.

 

I haven't tried solo'ing a healer, but I imagine it would be very difficult. In most cases I throw DOTs out then stick to healing. I'm getting 100k+ damage and close to 200k healing in most WZ's now, which seems pretty respectable to me.

 

As for those last three points, they can be thrown in Imperial Brew for extra damage, or Accomplished Doctor for better healing crits. I'm gonna put them in AD for better healing, since I went to this build from a pure healing one and I miss my 3k+ heal crits.

[of all the things to take away...]

You're not understanding what Bioware is doing regarding this class. The laughing annoyed other players, so it was removed. THAT'S the impetus behind everything done to this class. Bioware weighs how much you annoy other players vs how likely you are to quit vs reroll if they nerf your class.

 

Operatives will continue to be nerfed until people stop complaining about us, which because this is a stealth class won't be for several more patches. They're concerned about people quitting after getting killed by you. To them, that's a bigger worry than you quitting because you're playing a class nobody really plays anymore. It's a numbers game.

 

That's just absurd, unsubstantiated conspiracy-theory talk. BW is new at this and might be making some poor choices balance-wise, perhaps (I play a healer and have no complaints), but to state that they're intentionally gimping a class to keep other classes happy is ridiculous.

[Level of Competition in PvP]

I think your post is pretty refreshing to see, Murdertrain, with all the negativity that's been flying around here recently. It's nice to see someone who is happy with their conceal/scrapper build, and for what it's worth, I'm healer spec and I got repeatedly destroyed the other day by a Rep scrapper who just ate through my health in about six seconds with enough stunlocks to ensure I wasn't getting any heals off before I bit it.

 

I've tried conceal spec only once or twice and hated it, but I'm really set in my ways as a healer and couldn't get a handle on the build.

 

I've got a couple of questions for you:

 

1) what opening rotation do you use?

 

2) do you find you're able to keep up when it comes to sustained DPS?

 

3) How's the build in PVE?

 

4) What are your tactics in PvP? Do you stick to fringe healers and injured soloers?

 

I'm tempted to give conceal a go again, but I'm a pretty good healer and I've sucked each and every time I've tried conceal out.

[1.2 just destroys operative for good]

Nerf stim boost?

 

How did stim boost get nerfed?

[Reader's Digest: 50 THINGS (your healer won't tell you)]

Gotta echo the hatred of tanks who think they can blithely Force-leap in when I'm still low on energy from the last fight, and then ***** when they die. I've met some INSANELY stupid tanks who just don't get how to protect their healer/wait for him to recover.

[Op healers 1.2]

It's a shame that they didn't do something with the pointless KI. Other than that, the changes look pretty good. I look forward to them hitting. Particularly pleased with the RN change.