This goes without saying. The last Hutball I played had 6 SI's on the opposing team. The one before that had one where there were 8 SI's between 2 teams and 5 Mara's. Also had one with 10 SI's in it earlier today. Decent changes listed in the OP. Personally, I would like to see more passing and less Leap or Grappling. My change proposal would be that if you Leaped or Grappled with the ball or ball carrier the ball would reset. Does nothing in regards to nerfing anything of an SI or Mara, just forces people to pass rather than easy mode with literally 3 buttons to score. Leap, Grapple, Grapple score. /puts on flame suite for the incoming "It's all we have", "We are nerfed enough in 1.2", "You and everyone thinking Grapple is game breaking or even powerful are terribad" arguments.

And the main complaint is that you guys have too much CC A N D Utility. But like I said, I'm done with this conversation. You guys clearly think that the grass is a lot greener on a none Sorc's end. So please, spare me the "well I do have grapple and can completely remove someone from taking damage, but so can the rest of my team so long as they kill other people, so now killing is a CC?" I never called it a CC by the way. You are still hung up on the other guy. But hey, again, say what you want. People and even yourself know that if there is a decent amount of CC with a decent amount of utility that something usually has to give considering the damage and healing output. But hey, to each their own. Im off.

Again, I play a pyro Merc BH. I listed what I have, how in the hell is that even remotely close to what you have? EDIT: Anyway, I'm done in this. People want abilities listed and then say, well those are just abilities. People say, well a Sorc topping damage meters while being second (100k+) in heals doesn't matter, but we all know that tying people up in WZ's matter especially when you are making them wait in the spawning area. You guys have it very, very good right now despite what you think. Compared to some classes you are beyond and to others not so much. But to down play what is in your utility box makes me shake my head. Have fun in La La land guys. I'm off to PVP.

If I am DPSing said Sorc and they get grappled to another level where I cannot hit them or even chase them how does that not affect me? Look, I get what you are saying, ya it's in a different class than a CC, however, don't down play it either. Completely removing someone from combat to another level is beyond useful and furthermore has won more matches than anything else in Hutball (probably an exaggeration, but none the less it has won a lot of games, it and it alone). So it helps a friendly, though does it mitigate damage? Nope. Does it lessen the damage? Nope. Does it in fact completely remove the ball carrier from being attacked? Yep. Does winning help the grappling Sorc? Yep. Not for or against you personally, but skewing the facts and/or downplaying an ability threw semantics isn't a good leg to stand on in a debate.

I am going to point out that if TM decimated ANYONE, they deserved it. Even a clicker can push W A S or D and move out of range or LOS of a TM. An electro dart is not enough time to nuke someone from a Tracer either. So, please, stow that "TM decimated people" BS. It decimated those that didn't know how to move and that is it. Not saying stacking debuffs into one ability is OK and that's not even the argument. I am just sick of hearing "OMG TM spammers are ruining everything with their one shotting people left and right", it's old, it's bulls*** and it needs to go away. Hell, I am pyro and I am sick of hearing about it.

I think what he was referring to, and I am pretty sure you are baiting him on this, is that grapple can and does completely remove a target from being damaged while everything else you listed only mitigates some damage. There is a difference especially when you are talking about a 3D environment that Hutball is. Just saying.

Lets play some poker.... I play a Pyro Merc, how about we start with I have concussion shot and electro dart, both on a 1 min CD and one breaks on any damage, oh and I can slow people for 2 seconds. I have a bubble that mitigates 25% damage for a few seconds on a long CD (spare me the heavy armor aka bubble plate heals bulls***). My only escape is 1 CD (determination) on a long CD as well. And I have 1 knockback in my spec. Not talking damage here as I can certainly go into that if you wish, but you won't like it. I call, whats in your hybrid hand?

No I know what shroud looks like. Hell, this happens even when I'm able to sneak up on him (as a BH). But like i said to appease the other guy, let's just chalk it up to him being the luckiest guy with the uber bestest timing in the whole worlds..... I've seen speed hackers get reported time and time again as well as people like the guy I mentioned and yet, no bans. So apparently BW is fine with it and I should be to, but to have the other guy tell me it was merely force shroud is a bit much. I know what I saw and see, I know what he can and can't do to prevent such CC's and I know how fast he should be able to move. Not directing that to you (Dire) moreso to the other guy that wants to believe in pixies and Santa Clause and that no one is hacking in this game and despite reporting, nothing is being done.

Nice response, typical, but nice.

That's what I am referring to, his leap. He grabs ball and leaps, then grapple grapple etc. Though, same can be said about the "mirror" classes/specs.

I play a pyro merc and um, stealth hasn't broken on people that are running away and stealthing for me. In case you don't know, pyro has dots....

You said the one bad thing right there. Watch as the incoming flock of "Yo, just spam tracer" fans come in. I mean apparently Arsenal was able to 1 shot everyone with no LOS issues with a tracer or two. lol On topic, ya it is pretty cheap that even when you have dots on them the stealth doesn't break and they simply run off.

This plus a Jugg's leap and sprint coupled with owning Mid are all that's needed to win Hutball. It's not skilled to use an ability you have whenever you want. Skilled would require timing. Getting 3 people that know what their rolls are and where to be, not so much. I know there are counters however, I am speaking from 3-4 people knowing what in the hell to do (not even a premade) going against a John Q pug match.

How many times and for how long can he use it? I've seen multiple people try to stun him over the coarse of a match, myself included and they never (literally) take. But hey, we will chalk it up to him being the luckiest guy in SW and say he has impeccable timing not to mention the speed.

Only class that I have found to stun me with a full resolve going is an Operative. On the flip side the only "person" I have found who completely ignores all stuns (seriously, I have yet to stun him or see him stunned) is a Jedi Shadow (name withheld), though he moves really really fast back and forth when he gets close to ya and can out run anyone, so /shrug. Ya, I reported, but um..... ya.

I love how people can over look the usefulness of leap (ya I threw a Jugg in there), grapple, grapple, sprint score (10-12 seconds) and have the GALL the sit there and complain about a turret and getting hit by said turret. lol Oh, I play a Pyro btw so spare me the "herp TM spammer" come back. Just saying the TM spamming complaint was even worse than the Sorc one. lol EDIT: I guess I should mention a good portion of my WZ's consist of mainly Inquisitors. Not over exaggerating. The last game I was in where it was Imp on Imp Hutball there were 10 Inq's in the match. I know this is a "random" thing in regards to who is queing etc, but sheesh.

Just ask any Sorc that is able to get 500k damage, 100k+ healing, top kills and medals in a WZ. They will all tell you that it doesn't matter because to play like that the Sorc needs to be playing poorly and disregard objectives. Meanwhile they sweep the fact of the Sorc rooting and killing people is actually helping their team with the objectives under the rug. Oh and if they don't say that, they will tell ya "meh, it's fine". Glad they set me straight on it.

But that's wrong didn't you know? You should be queing in a premade and win trading for the fastest most mathematically advantageous way to achieve gear. It was like the kill trading in Ilum, yup those guys deserve that Battlemaster Title too bad some of them are still in Century gear, but hey they lurned to math and tey deeserf to haz geer fastt. lol Sorry kinda had to though. These guys kill me when I hear them talk in OPS and whatnot.

Games been out 3 months. That's round about an arena season. The game is new, but ya, I know, we wanted it yesterday, no bugs (lmao love that complaint) and shiny, let alone new and custom to everyone's liking. No I got it, just won't ever understand it.

So losing out on Valor (yes I value valor) as well as enjoying the "PVP" aspect while trying to go after objectives, abiding the "STOP TRYING TO CAP SO WE CAN LOSE BROSEPH" mentality is "in my best interest"? Again, my best interest is how I decide to play is it not? The logic you portray is false. Everyone is different and people enjoy different things. People that tend to make posts like these only value winning or the end. Some people like myself value the journey more so. Apples and Oranges. Bottom line, let people do what they want. If you want to "help" people who don't understand that's one thing. Trying to sway people to your view point by belittling people (not saying you or the OP do this but I have seen others) is not "in my or others best interest. Also, put the shoe on the other foot. If I play along and do what you guys wanted isn't that wasting my time? How is your time more valuable than mine? It can go either way. Though I think if you que for a WZ you should plan on it taking the full amount of time rather than what's quickest.

Then leave and you and the OP can stop blaming everyone else for wrecking your game while they play theirs. Or is THAT much responsibility too much for the both of you to handle? What gives both of you the right to tell anyone how to play? I understand helping someone with objectives and encouraging to achieve those objects, but I will be damned if I am going to have some whinebag yell at me in chat while I PVP. You can enjoy your 2 medals from camping East. Ya I know we are going to lose, however I will grab a few more medals attempting to grab objectives and pass the time by faster. At least I will have "something" to show for losing the round.

Pretty much this. I leveled Arsenal and played Arsenal for about 2 months after 50, not quite 2 but close. I respeced Pyro last week and my jaw dropped. Your survivability will go down a bit seeing as you lose your 7% heal when venting heat (if speced) but I can solo people and even 2 depending on their gear. I'm in Champ gear btw almost to BM. But I found after "having' to be a turret to get my stacks up and even to keep my stacks, then switching to Pyro, I was immediately in love. Bummer thing is, I'll have to respec Arsenal for raiding. lol You will find though that if you do your rotation wrong in Pyro you can overheat rather quickly, or same as spamming nothing but TM. Trick is, do the proper rotation, nuke when appropriate and that coupled with a vent heat on occasion will give you no problems in a long PVP fight.

/puts finger to nose! BINGO Personally, not tryign to say I am all that, but the heat management is rather easy to do. I only overheat if I mean to. Both in Arse and Pyro Spec.

Did everyone complain this much then Blizzard did the same thing with Potions? I can't really remember, but if I recall correctly, they didn't. Why this is such a surprise and/or GAMEBREAKING is beyond me. A 4500 heal in PVP doesn't matter that much. It may, and I will repeat MAY get you to a goal line in a rare circumstance. It MAY get you enough health to kill that one guy before the other 2-3 finish you off. In PVE it helps the healers very little. 1-2 AOE heals and it makes that Medpack heal. Heck, 1 heal from me on my DPS merc would do that in a PVE environment or even PVP if I am stim popped. So again, what's so game breaking about this to most people? Not saying the guy I quoted stated that, but fish around the forums and see how many people are raging over this. It's ridiculous.

How'd they ruin things for BH's? I've read the patch notes and haven't seen any game breaking nerfs.