Do you think story is really what MMO players want?

[Baizak]

I do not agree with the OP at all. I do thank him for making this thread. Threads like these always bring out the venom spewing haters that instead of offering constructive feedback, they just say this game will fail it is a fact!!

 

So welcome to my ignore list. I am taking bets that even though so many of you are claiming you will not be here after the free month, that you actually will still be here. Which means you really like the game and are still playing it, or you just keep paying 15 dollars a month to troll the forums.

[Gunryu]

That's kind of the point mate, they're trying something new in fusing an apple and an orange to create an appange.

 

Many of today's gaming genres simply wouldn't exist if developers didn't try new things or to marry different concepts together that previously were considered "incompatible". Remember when it was commented that bringing in movie-like cutscenes and whatnot into games was a bad idea? Then remember the acclaim MGS received? And that game even had a clumsy script/plot (Kojima, enough said).

 

Some of the greatest games ever made were so great because they took a risk, tried something new rather than sticking with the safe tried and tested.

 

It will never appeal to everyone but I for one am glad people are still trying new things and as far as TOR is concerned I'm happy with the results so far.

 

That's well and good, but making it your ONLY thing to go on is BAD! The games that experiment also had other stuff to fall back on that was tried and true, look at when WoW started, it took ideas from EQ and polished them up and did other things, SWTOR is falling back on "But but we have voice acting!" and in the long run I feel it will bite them in the backside and hard.

[Myrmedus]

That's well and good, but making it your ONLY thing to go on is BAD! The games that experiment also had other stuff to fall back on that was tried and true, look at when WoW started, it took ideas from EQ and polished them up and did other things, SWTOR is falling back on "But but we have voice acting!" and in the long run I feel it will bite them in the backside and hard.

 

I think that's harsh, to be honest. This game has alot of other aspects besides the story but I just feel that many of them are being taken for granted because they're seen as "standard" these days: also, again I have to bring it back to the fact it's only 2 weeks old.

 

As an example, I way prefer the class dynamics in this game over many other MMOs. I love the fact that many of the classes are almost "multi-classes" in the abilities they have because it leads to a far more well-rounded and rewarding experience IMO.

 

But if we're talking about top-level endgame then that is something that has eluded every MMO in history on its release, I'm afraid - it also makes sense why: when an MMO is released 90% of the population won't reach endgame for awhile so they focus on the start to mid-game more since that is where the greatest demographic of players resides; in short, those who are already max level are in the minority.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Myrmedus

[C-Bee]

I rather enjoy playing through the story rather than going to kill 50x imp's, and 100x fire bears after that and maybe some 20x dragons to top it and possibly repeat that some 40 times to gain a level.

 

Simply adding story certainly wont make the game great since the content is still not dynamic (something that MMO genre has not seen) but it sure as hell is better than grinding mindlessly through levels and gear just to get more levels and gear.

 

Hats off to BW for having balls to try something different.

[Gunryu]

I think that's harsh, to be honest. This game has alot of other aspects besides the story but I just feel that many of them are being taken for granted because they're seen as "standard" these days: also, again I have to bring it back to the fact it's only 2 weeks old.

 

Which is why I said in a post I made a few days ago, I am giving this game 2 months past the free month to see who quickly they fix bugs etc, but at the same time I WILL come on these forums and say my piece whether it be good or bad, and people who can't accept the bad that has to be said by me and others are hurting a game they claim to love so much because it's only through feedback whether good or bad that improvements happen.

 

I rather enjoy playing through the story rather than going to kill 50x imp's, and 100x fire bears after that and maybe some 20x dragons to top it and possibly repeat that some 40 times to gain a level.

 

Simply adding story certainly wont make the game great since the content is still not dynamic (something that MMO genre has not seen) but it sure as hell is better than grinding mindlessly through levels and gear just to get more levels and gear.

 

Hats off to BW for having balls to try something different.[/Quote]

 

No instead you are battling through millions of droids, just because they offer voice acting and cut scenes doesn't make it less of a grind.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Gunryu

[Myrmedus]

Which is why I said in a post I made a few days ago, I am giving this game 2 months past the free month to see who quickly they fix bugs etc, but at the same time I WILL come on these forums and say my piece whether it be good or bad, and people who can't accept the bad that has to be said by me and others are hurting a game they claim to love so much because it's only through feedback whether good or bad that improvements happen.

 

I edited my post btw:

 

 

I think that's harsh, to be honest. This game has alot of other aspects besides the story but I just feel that many of them are being taken for granted because they're seen as "standard" these days: also, again I have to bring it back to the fact it's only 2 weeks old.

 

As an example, I way prefer the class dynamics in this game over many other MMOs. I love the fact that many of the classes are almost "multi-classes" in the abilities they have because it leads to a far more well-rounded and rewarding experience IMO.

 

But if we're talking about top-level endgame then that is something that has eluded every MMO in history on its release, I'm afraid - it also makes sense why: when an MMO is released 90% of the population won't reach endgame for awhile so they focus on the start to mid-game more since that is where the greatest demographic of players resides; in short, those who are already max level are in the minority.

 

_________________________________________________________________________

 

I also think there's a difference. Anyone who claims the game is flawless is a fanboy but I think you're criticizing the wrong things (or were).

 

The story is not the problem: in your eyes, bugs, UI, AH etc. are the problems so simply focus on them. And there's no issue with criticism as long as it's constructive (jesus, I sound like Ghostcrawler) but if it's not then it's just bashing.

 

I also think it's crazy that the AHs aren't linked, but I also remember WoW's AHs weren't linked for a damn long time too. I also think the UI needs some improvements, I think more customization is needed and I'm amazed the quest tracker pane doesn't seem to scale down with resolution (though BW have already said they're working on the UI). However, that doesn't make the game bad it just needs improvements.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Myrmedus

[Gatran]

(My main point out of all of this is that I don't think adding Story as a new pillar of the MMO is a smart move when trying to beat WoW in the MMO market)

 

I've been reading a lot of posts recently about what people think of this game but none directly discuss how the pillars of MMOs are being dealt with in TOR. This game is STORY DRIVEN, we've heard it numerous times now. I've heard many times In interviews the devs say they wanted story to be the new pillar in MMO and I don't think that this is a realistic prospect.

 

---> ESSAY ALERT <---

 

Think about what happens when you read a book. The story is interesting while your reading it and it can stay with you forever. You get a certain satisfaction out of knowing the parts of it. SW:TOR is saying to players 'Make your own story, live it out in your own way' This is a good idea, I myself find the idea of living an online life in the Star Wars universe to be exciting and thrilling. There is however a key problem I feel which is that this is an MMO. And what happens in all MMOs is that you reach this little brick wall called, the max level...

 

The problem with this idea of 'making your own story' is simply the restraints of the game itself. I find it very difficult to embrace this idea because I know that eventually I will run out of content or indeed just get bored with my character. Its also very difficult to live out a truly believable story in an MMO since the majority of time is spent killing defenceless animals or collecting random crap.

 

The original poll done on these forums indicated that the main things people looked for in MMOs were PvP or PvE. Anyone who has played an MMO before will surely realize that these two concepts are the foundation of the end game content. For SW:TOR these apparently weren't a problem. They made this game STORY DRIVEN despite the fact that only a tiny portion of MMO gamers would consider this even the slightest bit important. So why?

 

I feel as though this game simply lacks in certain areas and the only thing I can think to blame is there total emphasise on story. I have no doubt that this game will do well simply because there are plenty of people willing to put up with the quantity of story just to reach the end game. But what end game? Patching will surely add more content but with an old system ( eg. The Holy Trinity ) it will make it no different to WoW which has put a lot of focus into making its end game as fun as possible. BioWare needs to wake up and realize that this is something too important to just pretend isn't important and although the game may be story based, they do need to put end game in or the hardcore MMO players will just get up and leave.

 

On the topic of story I really don't like the way BioWare as implemented their vision of story. Just because I have a nice conversation with a quest giver doesn't mean that him telling me to kill 10 boars (or droids) will be any more fun. Are people really that stupid as to believe that STORY is going to make an MMO more fun in the end game. I look forward to new titles such as GW2 which promise to actually change end game for the better by directly tackling the problems people have with PVE and PVP.

 

This game feels more dull than WoW in the questing sense because adding in all this story actually increases the time that killing 10 boars would normally take. 'But thats just if you want to grind to max level', sure ill admit one thing I loved about WoW was that I could get to max level in no time by just grinding. That still doesn't change the fact that most MMO players are just like me, they want to get to that end game content as soon as they can and SW:TOR has tried to change that by introducing more stuff for you to do while you level up. This doesn't actually make the game experience any better in the sense that people still want to be max level as soon as they can, so I suppose much of this new content is in fact just pointless if people are just going to skip over it. I feel as though BioWare has actually harmed themselves by making story so important especially in the levelling part and I am not sure how they intend to carry this over into the end game.

 

To try and fix this many people may suggest that you re roll an alt, BioWare has tried to make it clear that making a new character is a whole new story and yet wont I be doing exactly the same quests? I find it hard to build this vision of a new character when so much of what I am doing is the same as what my main did previously. There is only 1 area to go and quest in for each level group, yes you could leave a location sooner or spend longer in another but you are not really living a new story except for of course your classes main one.

 

For an MMO which values story so highly it seems embarrassing that there is actually very little choice in how your story progresses. Oh I get to choose if i'm 'Light or Dark side', I do question the philosophical side of this game as can you really split life so plainly into just good deeds and evil ones. Yet the game gives you brownie points for taking one side which means players are either all evil or all good. Is there no middle ground? How can someone build a true story for themselves when the game pushes them to choose good over evil or vis versa. Yes you could just ignore the whole system but is it not outrageuous in the first place that they split moral choice so plainly?

 

To finish I would like to just discourage anyone from saying any obvious comments and that the single reason why I am posting this is to see if anyone in the community shares my concerns. BioWare has put their eggs in one basket on this game and I feel they have missed out some crucial parts of what makes MMOs successful.

 

(My main point out of all of this is that I don't think adding Story as a new pillar of the MMO is a smart move when trying to beat WoW in the MMO market)

 

First off let me say that SWTOR is not trying to beat WOW.... Their trying to make a quality game for all who would enjoy and mmo with story and not just the ****** story of WOW but with the amazing story of the Star Wars Universe so stop bugging everyone with what you have to say

[Myrmedus]

No instead you are battling through millions of droids, just because they offer voice acting and cut scenes doesn't make it less of a grind.

 

It does for people who can immerse themselves though, that's the point. I, like the guy you quoted, don't feel like I'm levelling, I don't feel like I'm grinding, I feel like I'm playing through a story-based RPG whenever I level and that makes a damn fine change from feeling like I'm a chinese farmer. There's still room for MMO aspects, I still group up, I still grind stuff (was grinding professions and datacrons today) but when it comes to levelling I 'play' I don't 'farm'.

 

It's a shame you don't get that level of immersion because it's great.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Myrmedus

[Gunryu]

I edited my post btw:

 

 

I think that's harsh, to be honest. This game has alot of other aspects besides the story but I just feel that many of them are being taken for granted because they're seen as "standard" these days: also, again I have to bring it back to the fact it's only 2 weeks old.

 

As an example, I way prefer the class dynamics in this game over many other MMOs. I love the fact that many of the classes are almost "multi-classes" in the abilities they have because it leads to a far more well-rounded and rewarding experience IMO.

 

But if we're talking about top-level endgame then that is something that has eluded every MMO in history on its release, I'm afraid - it also makes sense why: when an MMO is released 90% of the population won't reach endgame for awhile so they focus on the start to mid-game more since that is where the greatest demographic of players resides; in short, those who are already max level are in the minority.

 

Just so people don't think I am being a negative prat here are things I like about the game

 

- I love not having to farm LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE it, I hated farming

 

- Lightsabers c'mon it had to be said

 

- No flying mounts

 

- Class design is good

 

- Upgradeable gear so you can keep pieces if you like the look

 

- It's freaking STAR WARS!

 

It does for people who can immerse themselves though, that's the point. I don't feel like I'm levelling, I don't feel like I'm grinding, I feel like I playing through a story-based RPG and that makes a damn fine change from feeling like I'm a chinese farmer.

 

It's a shame you don't get that level of immersion because it's great.[/Quote]

 

I do, then I go out and realize I am killing even MORE droids, it's like if I had to kill nothing but Murlocs in WoW, it would get annoying after a while.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Gunryu

[Myrmedus]

I do, then I go out and realize I am killing even MORE droids, it's like if I had to kill nothing but Murlocs in WoW, it would get annoying after a while.

 

I can't comment since I don't see how you play, but I personally bounce between side and main story quests alternatively and it helps break up most feelings of repetition. Obviously, you will sometimes feel like you're grinding, I think it's impossible to avoid completely in an MMO, but there are methods to breaking it up as much as possible.

 

I have to admit I rarely if ever feel "the grind" with story-line quests it's only the side-quests that feel that way...but if I feel too "grinded out" from side-quests at some point I just do story-line stuff exclusively until I've had my fill.

 

Or if you've been playing for hours and it feels repetitive just stop!

Edited January 2, 2012 by Myrmedus

[Eshaye]

It does for people who can immerse themselves though, that's the point. I, like the guy you quoted, don't feel like I'm levelling, I don't feel like I'm grinding, I feel like I'm playing through a story-based RPG whenever I level and that makes a damn fine change from feeling like I'm a chinese farmer. There's still room for MMO aspects, I still group up, I still grind stuff (was grinding professions and datacrons today) but when it comes to levelling I 'play' I don't 'farm'.

 

It's a shame you don't get that level of immersion because it's great.

 

Exactly right, a grind is only a grind if it's a chore. Heck there's people who love to chop down monsters over and over again what many people consider grinding or farming. I love being carried along by the story with some fighting in between.

 

If you're enjoying yourself, you're not grinding no matter what you're doing. This game caters to story lovers and I for one am extremely grateful, it's about time.

[freakuancy]

 

I do, then I go out and realize I am killing even MORE droids, it's like if I had to kill nothing but Murlocs in WoW, it would get annoying after a while.

 

I will agree, the reliance on droids is a disappointing crutch. We need more faction action, especially in later flashpoint bosses. And how about some faction-restricted operations? I don't want my raid boss to be "a bigger droid". I want him to be a bad-assed Sith Lord.

[missy_phoenix]

Story is very important to some folks, like myself, who don't simply want to exercise the functionality of a game - BioWare made book on engaging story lines, voice talent, and immersive plots.

 

If this game doesn't work for you, if story isn't as important as, say, raid progression, then there are actually dozens of games out there that do cater to the "succession of hamster wheels" gameplay characteristic of current MMOs.

 

This.

 

I quit WoW because story became a thing of the past with the addition of integrated add ons. Too much emphasis was placed on end game and I burned out fast. I think it's great that Bioware made an MMORPG from Star Wars. If Star Wars hadn't captured my attention before, it certainly has now.

[Myrmedus]

I will agree, the reliance on droids is a disappointing crutch. We need more faction action, especially in later flashpoint bosses. And how about some faction-restricted operations? I don't want my raid boss to be "a bigger droid". I want him to be a bad-assed Sith Lord.

 

I must admit I would like to see more apprentices (Jedi or Sith) as regular enemies too...or even as strong enemies.

[Gunryu]

I will agree, the reliance on droids is a disappointing crutch. We need more faction action, especially in later flashpoint bosses. And how about some faction-restricted operations? I don't want my raid boss to be "a bigger droid". I want him to be a bad-assed Sith Lord.

 

Exactly! Star Wars was all about Jedi/Republic/Rebels/Whatever against The Empire/Sith/Whatever, sure there were droids but quite honestly it wasn't the be all end all of Star Wars, they were mostly there as helpers until Clone Wars.

[Myrmedus]

Exactly right, a grind is only a grind if it's a chore. Heck there's people who love to chop down monsters over and over again what many people consider grinding or farming. I love being carried along by the story with some fighting in between.

 

If you're enjoying yourself, you're not grinding no matter what you're doing. This game caters to story lovers and I for one am extremely grateful, it's about time.

 

I think this is a good post that I'd like to bring attention to aswell, especially the emboldened part. There have already been so many MMOs for the number- and mob-crunchers so it is about time that one was brought out that could appeal to those who enjoy story.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Myrmedus

[Myrmedus]

Exactly! Star Wars was all about Jedi/Republic/Rebels/Whatever against The Empire/Sith/Whatever, sure there were droids but quite honestly it wasn't the be all end all of Star Wars, they were mostly there as helpers until Clone Wars.

 

Yeah, I'll agree with that to an extent...though I think it's potentially an unfortunate crux from the setting of the story: the Treaty of Coruscant means it'd be hard to have hordes and hordes of the opposite faction on the fields of battle since it wouldn't make sense. Though one thing: I don't know what level you are but this does improve as you level up since as you progress through the story, the treaty begins to break thus more open-scale war begins to emerge.

 

It's a tough one...but I do agree there's too many droids perhaps, especially when they're not witty like HK-47.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Myrmedus

[Dystopic]

Story alone is not enough. But it is an integral part and is necessary.

[Eshaye]

Exactly! Star Wars was all about Jedi/Republic/Rebels/Whatever against The Empire/Sith/Whatever, sure there were droids but quite honestly it wasn't the be all end all of Star Wars, they were mostly there as helpers until Clone Wars.

 

I think we're getting lots of droids right now because we are at the beginning of the saga, stay tuned for baddass sith lords and jedi masters. XD

[Gunryu]

I think this is a good post that I'd like to bring attention to aswell, especially the emboldened part. There have already been so many MMOs for the number- and mob-crunchers so it is about time that one was brought out that could appeal to those who enjoy story.

 

 

OK I don't mind it having a story, heck I enjoy it, but at the same time

 

1) It doesn't need a cut scene for EVERYTHING it is flat out bloody annoying and makes it so I don't even want to roll an alt.

 

2) Again it needs to stop putting so much focus on droids, it's boring and redundant which takes away from story immersion (for me at least).

 

3) Story is great but it also shouldn't be the prime focus, good game play and (especially for an MMO) replayability should be.

[GalacticKegger]

This.

 

I quit WoW because story became a thing of the past with the addition of integrated add ons. Too much emphasis was placed on end game and I burned out fast. I think it's great that Bioware made an MMORPG from Star Wars. If Star Wars hadn't captured my attention before, it certainly has now.

I quit WoW because Blizzard's prime directive became herding its subs into end game as fast as they could to better position sales of their next expansions. WoW has become a loot pinata and has conditioned it's core sub base for it. Now they expect easy money and faceless progression in everything they do. Sad really... Edited January 2, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Myrmedus]

I think we're getting lots of droids right now because we are at the beginning of the saga, stay tuned for baddass sith lords and jedi masters. XD

 

Aye, exactly - but I can attest that you don't start to see this until you get up the levels a bit.

[Myrmedus]

OK I don't mind it having a story, heck I enjoy it, but at the same time

 

1) It doesn't need a cut scene for EVERYTHING it is flat out bloody annoying and makes it so I don't even want to roll an alt.

 

2) Again it needs to stop putting so much focus on droids, it's boring and redundant which takes away from story immersion (for me at least).

 

3) Story is great but it also shouldn't be the prime focus, good game play and (especially for an MMO) replayability should be.

 

1) I like cutscenes for everything but I DO think there should be an option to skip the ENTIRE cutscene for quests if you wish.

 

2) Check my previous 2 posts, it gets better as you get higher level and I included why that was from a plot/balance perspective.

 

3) I don't think there should be a prime focus to be honest, I think it's equal dibs story and gameplay. If you have good story and gameplay you don't even need to worry about replayability because that will just come naturally.

 

Replayability is also helped by the fact that if you roll an alt you get an entirely new story...oh, and each class has a fork in their story by the way, and after that choice you get two different possible stories. However, I do understand that the sidequest cutscenes might get annoying since they're obviously the same for each alt you roll on the same faction so they need to bring in a full cutscene skip. I believe they will, by the way, as they've already employed similar cutscene dynamics in ME3.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Myrmedus

[Lodril]

(My main point out of all of this is that I don't think adding Story as a new pillar of the MMO is a smart move when trying to beat WoW in the MMO market)

 

This strikes me as the central flaw of your argument. The goal of any project like this is not to beat the leader, but rather to make money. Presumably the leader makes the most money, but the goal is not to take the leader's money, but rather to find a market and make money from the players.

 

I have never been a WoW player... it never interested me. I've tried a few other MMOs, and have never hit the 'wall' of max level because I'd get bored, and sample another character, and then get bored and stop playing. By the time the free-to-play model rolled in, I was long since bored of the game.

 

My plan for this game has been to run through several of the story lines until gameplay becomes repetitive and I tire of it. The storyline has increased my interest in the game tremendously, since I now have an endpoint to drive me through the character progressions. Without it, my experience is that I'd just tire of mechanics and leave sooner.

 

If your goal with the game is to reach max level and then hurl your maxed out character repeatedly against other people's maxed out characters, or at some post-levelling electronic menace, then I suppose the presence of a storyline would be entirely superfluous. I submit to you that there are other types of players out here who do not find that vision appealing, and that perhaps the story content is targeted at us instead.

[PanthersSolo]

I disagree with the OP. This game made leveling so much fun. In WoW it was just a chore. Hell they should just let you start at max level in that game. I dont believe "most" MMO players just want to grind to max level. If that is true, its only because there was no other option before. If you didnt grind to max level, the game was boring as hell. I hated WoW when I first started, before I knew about end game and thought leveling was the entire game. It was boring. With this, I am seriously having a great time questing and leveling. And its all because of the story. Not just my class story, but side quests. It all feels so polished.