I want STORY AND SANDBOX

[CupieFoxtail]

Yeah, I'd like to go back 10 years or so too but that portal is closed to me. Perhaps as SWTOR grows, it will add some of the features that were most popular in other Star Wars games. However, seems they've got a bit of fixing to do first.

 

Wow, a reasonable response from someone who was somewhat disappointed in the game, but keeps his flaming to a minimum.

I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE.

Kudos to you, sir.

[Wrevan]

That would essentially require two games to be made. Stories must have a start, middle and end. If they didn't then they wouldn't make sense. Open world would require something like what Eldar Scrolls have done over the years where the storyline itself is very simple but the world is made elaborate.

 

TOR is released now and will continue to develop for the next 10 years. No doubt they will make the world more open now since we have already established a start, middle and end to the core storylines. The length is finished, so now the devs can focus on the breadth.

Read my last post, there's nothing keeping TOR from having new standalone planets that behave as a sandbox environment in themselves, and it'll make perfect sense - whereas games like WoW have to trash everything they have and start all over to fix their problems of a lonely sparsely-populated world.

[CupieFoxtail]

Read my last post, there's nothing keeping TOR from having new standalone planets that behave as a sandbox environment in themselves, and it'll make perfect sense - whereas games like WoW have to trash everything they have and start all over to fix their problems of a lonely sparsely-populated world.

 

They had a sandbox game like that

It was called Star Wars: Galaxies

It closed because it couldn't maintain enough subs

But you liked it, so lets just have the video game industry repeat its failures with the same exact IP's over and over again

[SWGVet]

Nice post, I actually agree with you OP.

[SWGVet]

They had a sandbox game like that

It was called Star Wars: Galaxies

It closed because it couldn't maintain enough subs

But you liked it, so lets just have the video game industry repeat its failures with the same exact IP's over and over again

 

It was a failure because they changed the game completely and remodeled it to be just like World of Warcraft. The game was a huge hit until they screwed it up and completely revamped the game more than four times in its time of launch. It wouldn't of been a failure if they had kept the game like it was when it launched.

[notebene]

I don't know if we'll ever get another decent sandbox MMO ever again...

 

I was reading something a few months back indicating this was on the radar for some development studios. I have no idea what sort of money is behind them, but I don't think the idea is 'dead', and we might see the pendulum swing.

 

I like both, and have room in my life for one of each. I just gotta find a good sand box. I was hoping FFXIV was going to go that way, and it started that way, though it had other glaring problems. Sadly, they 'listened to their customers' (or one set of customers was more convincing and louder than the others), and now they are going from "you can be whatever you want" classes to "i have to know you are a tank or healer so i can be alpha dog and organize my little game of war with you as my little chess piece" classes, and really pigeon holing a lot of the other game play (armoring system where you have to wear what is assigned to you, not whatever you want), so I moved on, hoping for another sand box.

 

Would it be awesome if someone could figure out how to make both at the same time? Oh yeah

 

Do I like this game for what it is? Yes. I hope they fix some things, but I like the game. I have a tendency to look at MMOs like a board game. If I like the game and the rules and it's fun, I play it. I don't send the makers of 'Sorry' a letter telling them I love their game, b/c I already beat 'Life' and it's new and refreshing, but I don't like their mechanics, so they should rebuild it to be like 'Life' please, so I can play a 'new' Life and be entertained, without having to play the old Life, which I beat, or your crappy mechanics in Sorry, but rather make you focus your money and resources on the board game I want.

 

NOTE! I just read that last paragraph, and this is 'not' an attack on you or saying that is what you are saying, it was more of a general statement for how I approach MMOs! I AGREE with you, it'd be awesome to have both. I hope someone makes that game. I would try it. If it were fun, I'd keep playing it.

 

Another 'reverse' example for me was Vanguard. I 'so' wanted to play that game. I loved the complex crafting, the big worlds, the little halfling starting town was awesome, the diplomacy system (or whatever it was called), but I couldn't handle the whole "Yeah! We're going back to the old days with corpse runs and needing a full group to do your first quest and coming over to your house IRL to hit you in the face if you fail to kill a 2nd level goblin!" mentality. So, I left, and didn't play ... very sadly.

 

But I didn't demand they not make that game and make my game. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

But I'm with you, it would have been cool. If SWG (pre-NGE) and this game were mashed together, that would have been awesome. I played original SWG for a few months. I stopped b/c it started feeling like a job, and that was 'all' on me, because that's how I played in the sand box, and rather (most sadly) change how I was playing, I just left. My loss.

[Claymaniac]

It was a failure because they changed the game completely and remodeled it to be just like World of Warcraft. The game was a huge hit until they screwed it up and completely revamped the game more than four times in its time of launch. It wouldn't of been a failure if they had kept the game like it was when it launched.

 

Actually the game wasn't really that big of a hit. They were bleeding subs and made the decision to change everything up to resemble WoW more, because they were losing players in droves to WoW.

 

Of course that ended up being even worse as it turned off many of the existing fans.

[DarkSentynel]

That would essentially require two games to be made. Stories must have a start, middle and end. If they didn't then they wouldn't make sense. Open world would require something like what Eldar Scrolls have done over the years where the storyline itself is very simple but the world is made elaborate.

 

TOR is released now and will continue to develop for the next 10 years. No doubt they will make the world more open now since we have already established a start, middle and end to the core storylines. The length is finished, so now the devs can focus on the breadth.

 

Yeah this is what I am optimistic for

[SnaggleFox]

If you're looking for a new sandbox MMO check out Archeage. Should be out in the west in maybe 2 years.

[oflow]

I don't understand, how is it not like World of Warcraft? I have been in areas that are bigger than any zone in WoW and just as wide open. What exactly are you looking for?

 

Seeing another player even on a full server the instanced zones are barren.

[CupieFoxtail]

It was a failure because they changed the game completely and remodeled it to be just like World of Warcraft. The game was a huge hit until they screwed it up and completely revamped the game more than four times in its time of launch. It wouldn't of been a failure if they had kept the game like it was when it launched.

 

SWG was not a huge hit

It was an adequate hit, and enough people liked it to keep it sustained

But sony online wanted more people. People were more attracted to a structured competitive MMO than a sandbox game, and subscription numbers between WoW and SWG.

The numbers that SWG managed to scrape together at its was what, 500k? BW has stated that that is how many they will need to turn a profit.

They want money. They want a LOT of money. So sorry if they decided to target the millions of people who joined the MMO scene since the release of WoW, but if you're waiting for them to turn their attention squarely to the 500k who enjoyed sandbox star wars, GL.

 

People play MMO's for structure. That's why WoW has 10million subs.

People play a little hybrid single player/multiplayer game called Minecraft for sandbox. It's leagues ahead of any garbage you'll manage to scrape together and stick in a box labelling it a "sandbox mmo". That's why Minecraft has 4 million sold

Edited January 1, 2012 by CupieFoxtail

[Claymaniac]

FFXIV is an interesting example. That started as a sandbox game and there was a huge outcry against it because it had "no content". You had big(although very repetitive) zones and you could be a crafter or a fighter or a gatherer exclusively if you want. You had the ability to make very hybrid classes and mix and match skills. You had Notorious Monsters out in the world that you fought as you ran into them for loot.

 

Of course, no one liked that and asked for quests that give exp, asked for more defined class roles, asked for instances for dungeon crawls and basically every feature that is common in theme park MMO's instead of sanbox MMO's. FFXIV tried to innovate with their bazaar system instead of an AH and that turned out to be a complete failure. They stopped charging subscriptions while they implemented many theme park features and only now feel comfortable enough to charge subs again .

 

To me FFXIV is a great example of how the majority of the people do not want sandbox MMO's. however, I'm willing to accept that the game itself was very poorly made which might be the bigger reason people gave up on it in droves.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Claymaniac

[Claymaniac]

Seeing another player even on a full server the instanced zones are barren.

 

Sure, I'm not a fan of the instancing either. Saying zones are barren is a bit of a hyperbole though, I see quite a few other people in instanced zones. Just not that many. I would love instancing to go away, however it doesn't make the worlds themselves any less Open World.

 

If I log on to WoW and run around the Barrens today, I could go an entire day without seeing anyone, simply cause everyone is higher level. Does that somehow transform an open world zone to a non open world zone?

[Blacktailstalker]

I don't see people yet crowding over the auction houses or pvp vendors in swtor, perhaps thats partly due to people new to this game and still leveling. But, I bet even after a few months when people get this game down, and they know exactly what they need in terms of gear and so on, you still won't be seeing people crowding up in the main cities doing nothing. As for the open world, I see lots of people in quest zones doing missions, this is good when you want to team up on the fly. The questing zones are huge, and also the game itself is huge, bigger than WoW! Woudn't want it any other way.

[SWGVet]

SWG was not a huge hit

It was an adequate hit, and enough people liked it to keep it sustained

But sony online wanted more people. People were more attracted to a structured competitive MMO than a sandbox game, and subscription numbers between WoW and SWG.

The numbers that SWG managed to scrape together at its was what, 500k? BW has stated that that is how many they will need to turn a profit.

They want money. They want a LOT of money. So sorry if they decided to target the millions of people who joined the MMO scene since the release of WoW, but if you're waiting for them to turn their attention squarely to the 500k who enjoyed sandbox star wars, GL.

 

People play MMO's for structure. That's why WoW has 10million subs.

People play a little hybrid single player/multiplayer game called Minecraft for sandbox. It's leagues ahead of any garbage you'll manage to scrape together and stick in a box labelling it a "sandbox mmo". That's why Minecraft has 4 million sold

 

What I mean is, in its day, five hundred thousand plus for an MMORPG was a huge success. These days its hardly nothing because MMORPG's have evolved more over the years. I'm just saying that in its day it was a success - none the less, even if people were leaving there were people joining. That's my opinion on it since I started playing it from release date.

[Sardoni]

I was reading something a few months back indicating this was on the radar for some development studios. I have no idea what sort of money is behind them, but I don't think the idea is 'dead', and we might see the pendulum swing.

 

I like both, and have room in my life for one of each. I just gotta find a good sand box. I was hoping FFXIV was going to go that way, and it started that way, though it had other glaring problems. Sadly, they 'listened to their customers' (or one set of customers was more convincing and louder than the others), and now they are going from "you can be whatever you want" classes to "i have to know you are a tank or healer so i can be alpha dog and organize my little game of war with you as my little chess piece" classes, and really pigeon holing a lot of the other game play (armoring system where you have to wear what is assigned to you, not whatever you want), so I moved on, hoping for another sand box.

 

Would it be awesome if someone could figure out how to make both at the same time? Oh yeah

 

Do I like this game for what it is? Yes. I hope they fix some things, but I like the game. I have a tendency to look at MMOs like a board game. If I like the game and the rules and it's fun, I play it. I don't send the makers of 'Sorry' a letter telling them I love their game, b/c I already beat 'Life' and it's new and refreshing, but I don't like their mechanics, so they should rebuild it to be like 'Life' please, so I can play a 'new' Life and be entertained, without having to play the old Life, which I beat, or your crappy mechanics in Sorry, but rather make you focus your money and resources on the board game I want.

 

NOTE! I just read that last paragraph, and this is 'not' an attack on you or saying that is what you are saying, it was more of a general statement for how I approach MMOs! I AGREE with you, it'd be awesome to have both. I hope someone makes that game. I would try it. If it were fun, I'd keep playing it.

 

Another 'reverse' example for me was Vanguard. I 'so' wanted to play that game. I loved the complex crafting, the big worlds, the little halfling starting town was awesome, the diplomacy system (or whatever it was called), but I couldn't handle the whole "Yeah! We're going back to the old days with corpse runs and needing a full group to do your first quest and coming over to your house IRL to hit you in the face if you fail to kill a 2nd level goblin!" mentality. So, I left, and didn't play ... very sadly.

 

But I didn't demand they not make that game and make my game. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

But I'm with you, it would have been cool. If SWG (pre-NGE) and this game were mashed together, that would have been awesome. I played original SWG for a few months. I stopped b/c it started feeling like a job, and that was 'all' on me, because that's how I played in the sand box, and rather (most sadly) change how I was playing, I just left. My loss.

I enjoy the story of TOR. I do. It was a great leveling experience. But then the story ends and I look at their... very... rushed implementation of... well.. I guess you could call it end game gear progression... not that it's very progressive seeing as how it's kinda random how you toss together the pieces for PVP... and PVE it's running hardmodes about... mmm 10 times to get one piece I think...

 

My only beef with this game is they should have stuck with what they were good at and patched in the other stuff later. Poorly implementing features wounds the reputation more than not having it.

[CupieFoxtail]

random how you toss together the pieces for PVP... and PVE it's running hardmodes about... mmm 10 times to get one piece I think...

 

Welcome to every MMO, where you do dungeons a long time and wait for gear

As for the PvP implementation, we'll see how it pans out, when the majority of people are actually level 50 and we have a level 50 wz bracket

[oflow]

Sure, I'm not a fan of the instancing either. Saying zones are barren is a bit of a hyperbole though, I see quite a few other people in instanced zones. Just not that many. I would love instancing to go away, however it doesn't make the worlds themselves any less Open World.

 

If I log on to WoW and run around the Barrens today, I could go an entire day without seeing anyone, simply cause everyone is higher level. Does that somehow transform an open world zone to a non open world zone?

 

Here we go with the wow comparison again. wow has nothing to do with it.

 

Its just strange to have to wait in a queue 30mins and see maybe 1 person in the area you are in. thats all i'm saying. seeing 1-2 ppl is what I would call barren its not hyperpole.

 

In normal mmos you bump into ppl do qsts, talk. In this the few ppl you do bump into you usually dont even talk to and you cant half the time anyway because the chat is bad and its easy to miss someone trying to say anything to you.

[Claymaniac]

Here we go with the wow comparison again. wow has nothing to do with it.

 

Its just strange to have to wait in a queue 30mins and see maybe 1 person in the area you are in. thats all i'm saying. seeing 1-2 ppl is what I would call barren its not hyperpole.

 

In normal mmos you bump into ppl do qsts, talk. In this the few ppl you do bump into you usually dont even talk to and you cant half the time anyway because the chat is bad and its easy to miss someone trying to say anything to you.

 

Nice strawman there, was just using WoW as an example, not comparing anything.

 

It is hyperbole cause 1-2 people is flat out wrong. Unless you are talking about lv40+ planets. I routinely see a good number of people running around in any zone, just not as many as you would expect after 20 minute queues. We both agree that sharding has to go. You still haven't explained how its single player though.

 

People not talking to you makes this game single player? You missed something said in chat, so this is single player? Do you read what you write?

 

Did I just do Cademimu 2 nights ago by myself? Weird.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Claymaniac

[oflow]

Nice strawman there, was just using WoW as an example, not comparing anything.

 

It is hyperbole cause 1-2 people is flat out wrong. Unless you are talking about lv40+ planets. I routinely see a good number of people running around in any zone, just not as many as you would expect after 20 minute queues. We both agree that sharding has to go. You still haven't explained how its single player though.

 

People not talking to you makes this game single player? You missed something said in chat, so this is single player? Do you read what you write?

 

Did I just do Cademimu 2 nights ago by myself? Weird.

 

I just played for an hour on Tattoine and saw 1 person. Its not 'flatout wrong'.

 

Just admit it sucks.

[ImperialSun]

I want to feel both the vastness and emptiness of the dune sea on tatooine, I want the long distances to be boring so much I need transport to traverse the planet. I want sandstorms, wildlife and krayt dragons.

 

I want little points of interest in the middle of nowhere waiting to be discovered, I want to explore!

 

I want to join a guild and go to war with another guild, I want to be able to arrange to meet the other guild any time and place and not play a multiplayer side game.

 

I want a real world economy that isnt perfectly balanced, I want space for players to create their own stories and content.

 

...I want Star Wars The Old Republic and Star Wars Galaxies...

 

...yes I'm that greedy, I want both awesome story telling and sky-high production values, but I also want to feel immersed into a living breathing world of player economies, vast spaces and yes sandbox elements.

 

Don't shoot me for saying what I want

 

Whilst I am having a blast playing SWTOR, the game your post describes is pure unadulterated gaming heaven imo.

 

SWG with SWTOR combined...mmmmmmm

Driz

[biere]

I don't understand, how is it not like World of Warcraft? I have been in areas that are bigger than any zone in WoW and just as wide open. What exactly are you looking for?

 

the answer is trolling.

[vortex_ro]

Honestly, I could care less about the vast majority of "sandbox" features

 

SWTOR would really have benefited from having a World, instead of such a boxed in, pre-determined path for everything, though

 

Dude I see you on every threat complaining like a prissy little school girl about anything and everything you can. Have you actually left the forums for long enough to actually play the game? Jesus man, If you daddy knew how whinny his kid was you'd get one upside the head.

[ImperialSun]

What I mean is, in its day, five hundred thousand plus for an MMORPG was a huge success. These days its hardly nothing because MMORPG's have evolved more over the years. I'm just saying that in its day it was a success - none the less, even if people were leaving there were people joining. That's my opinion on it since I started playing it from release date.

 

This...

 

Like the WoW babies keep saying, you cant compare 2004 to 2011.

 

In 2004 any MMORPG with 500k subs was quite successful. Not only that but SWG was not even a pure sandbox. The game world was absolutely teaming with quest givers, story arcs and themepark style zones too.

 

And lol @ people who spout that WoW has 10 mill subs.

 

How many active subs?

 

How many in the western world?

 

Driz

Edited January 1, 2012 by ImperialSun

[ImperialSun]

I just played for an hour on Tattoine and saw 1 person. Its not 'flatout wrong'.

 

Just admit it sucks.

 

I play every day and never have a gaming session where I DONT see loads of people going about their business like in any other MMORPG.

 

Just admit it you are a lame troll.

 

Driz

Edited January 1, 2012 by ImperialSun