Mercenary seems to be lacking compared to other classes?

[Elrias]

Also as arsenal merc if you actually talent yourself for pvp i counted at least 5 CC/snare/gap providing abilities so don't say we don't have them.

 

I'm pretty sure every poster in this thread knows what CC abilities we have. However, consider the problems these five abilities have:

 

- We have a long time stun with very high cooldown and long casting time. This skill also gives the target an enormous amount of health regeneration. Useful in PvE, very limited to no use in PvP.

- Unload is channeled and provides only a 2 sec snare.

- Rocket punch puhes the target back, but does not put a snare or knockdown on him... usually the target is able to close the gap is less than a second. It only helps in very specific situations, e.g. when you are on the upper platform in Hutball.

- Electro dart has a long cooldown. Also, while it does not have a cast time, it has a rather long animation time, and the 4 sec-stun is only applied at the end of the animation. Additionally, we often cannot use electro dart for defense because we urgently need it for offense, otherwise every opponent could easily break line-of-sight. Finally, electro dart is less effective that all similar abilities that other classes have.

- Finally, we have jet boost, which knocks back multiple targets and applies a very short snare. While it is a useful ability in principle, it can easily be countered by all other classes: All ranged classes don't have a problem with this skill at all, they can just keep shooting from their new position. Jedi Knights/Sith Warriors can often step back just a bit further and use force jump to close the gap instantly. Assassins/Shadows have force speed, which overrides the snare and also closes the gap almost instantly.

 

In sum, every other class in the game has both more and better CC than us.

 

The argument that a mercenary can simply out-damage an opponent in 1on1 by spaming the standard damage rotation is also fundamentally flawed: Yes, this works, but only if your opponent also simply spams his damage rotation at you. As soons as he uses crowd control or interrupts, you will definitely lose.

[Hilnarox]

You missed the point that he mentioned talented rocket punch. How about you check talent tree and count all those arsenal talents that add to chots snare effects or gaping efects?

All those who QQ that merc can't compete, how about you try harder and actually look at other shots. Yes, as a merc i can't compete against 2-3 enemies ganking me alone but 1 vs 1 I can't see why there has to be a problem for me to win that pvp duel. If i can't get away, i just load as fast as i can all my shots just to outdamage him. Yes, he can interrupt some shots but that's why you need to be aware of other options if that happens. There is only few moments when i die in pvp arenas, when enemy just gank me in group. I almost never die when i am 1 vs 1 against someone. Most of the time i outdamage him and they start to run away from me. There is however one problem, melee running around me. That's the problem of disposition against him and having abilities that needs to be cast over time not instant. That's when i just run away and shoot all my instant abilities and that's when i use heat venting to let me continue do damage because instant cast are real heat generators.

Also as arsenal merc if you actually talent yourself for pvp i counted at least 5 CC/snare/gap providing abilities so don't say we don't have them.

 

 

My friend.... You seem confused. U have 2snares, one frankly isn't real a snare because its a channel ability with a long cd and the Target is only slowed while u are using the move.... Pretty useless. Then ur aoe snare. But all these snares are way toooo short, my powertech pyro has a constant snare up always.

 

Lol rocket punch knockback is absolitly pathetic. It knocks the Target back 4m. Look on the range of meele moves.... It's 4m.

 

And if you are standing there and letting them hit u, they are definetly bad players. Except from rail shots ur instants do a pathetic amount of damage.

 

U don't have 5lol u sure u got a merc? You have 1cc, 1stun, 1real knock back, 2minor snares, ur snares should count as snares know to just lil movement impairig effects. You have nothing that other class can't counter, and every class does everything better then you.

[Brockxz]

I don't know how you play your merc, but when i know i will use rocket punch, i already start to back up, because you know, rocket punch still works at 4 m long range. So basically if you are good enough and know what you are doing, you can easily get at least 8 m gap or more by doing simple talented rocket punch. Or common use of such thing is running actually towards enemy and doing rocket punch from behind him by jumping and turning around and still backing up after that. The effect will be that he get punched away and will still run away from you if he didn't react soon enough.

Yes, i agree that other classes has a lot more CC and has a lot advantages over us but don't you think it is a lot satisfying when you still kill all those other classes.

You juist counted 5 CC effects by yourself and you tell me that i counted wrong I never said how large that impact is by using them but it still counts as a CC ability. And as i said, I feel underpowered only when i am ganked from all sides by a group but when enemies come 1 vs 1, i'm good. Yes, not alwways i win but there have never been moments i could say that i didn't have a chance against anyone who came at me. If I die on 1 vs 1, mostly it's because i messed up something (used some ability too soon, didn't used some protective measures and so on). How about we start to analyze first what we have been able to do with tools we have now and if we don't see any option to be competitive against some classes then we will have valid point to cry here and plea to bioware to give us something.

The only thing i really don 't like and would like to cry and a lot of us should cry about is responsiveness of a lot of abilities and so on. Most of the time i feel i still have an animations but enemy already have closed the gap I just made. That'really sucks because i have been playing a lot of other mmo's and when i played ranged classes kiting was one of the main tools i used to kill all melee enemies but it seems doesn't work like that here. It's sometimes painfull to watch cahnneled or cast abilities that says 1.5 cast but it is actually a lot longer because of broken animation and other things.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Brockxz

[Hilnarox]

I don't know how you play your merc, but when i know i will use rocket punch, i already start to back up, because you know, rocket punch still works at 4 m long range. So basically if you are good enough and know what you are doing, you can easily get at least 8 m gap or more by doing simple talented rocket punch. Or common use of such thing is running actually towards enemy and doing rocket punch from behind him by jumping and turning around and still backing up after that. The effect will be that he get punched away and will still run away from you if he didn't react soon enough.

Yes, i agree that other classes has a lot more CC and has a lot advantages over us but don't you think it is a lot satisfying when you still kill all those other classes.

You juist counted 5 CC effects by yourself and you tell me that i counted wrong I never said how large that impact is by using them but it still counts as a CC ability. And as i said, I feel underpowered only when i am ganked from all sides by a group but when enemies come 1 vs 1, i'm good. Yes, not alwways i win but there have never been moments i could say that i didn't have a chance against anyone who came at me. If I die on 1 vs 1, mostly it's because i messed up something (used some ability too soon, didn't used some protective measures and so on). How about we start to analyze first what we have been able to do with tools we have now and if we don't see any option to be competitive against some classes then we will have valid point to cry here and plea to bioware to give us something.

The only thing i really don 't like and would like to cry and a lot of us should cry about is responsiveness of a lot of abilities and so on. Most of the time i feel i still have an animations but enemy already have closed the gap I just made. That'really sucks because i have been playing a lot of other mmo's and when i played ranged classes kiting was one of the main tools i used to kill all melee enemies but it seems doesn't work like that here. It's sometimes painfull to watch cahnneled or cast abilities that says 1.5 cast but it is actually a lot longer because of broken animation and other things.[/Q8UOTE]

 

Do u no what a cc is ? I don't think you do.

 

That is the point, your not competitive compared too other classes because your lack of mobility compared to other classes similer to you. They are generally just much better all round

[Nesso]

Except from rail shots ur instants do a pathetic amount of damage. .

 

Umm? Except for HSM? Granted it takes 5 heat stacks for it to do 3.5k+ but honestly, it's pretty easy to stack up. A tracer + exp. dart + HSM combo with a rail shot finisher makes a huge dent on someone's HP pool. My point is, you can argue to me about utility, slow mobility, and survivability regarding mercs, but I REALLY have to call BS on Mercs lacking dmg.

[Gadrak]

you have to land 3 tracers before deployng HSM,and if it doesnt crit the damage is not that great,just a slighty more powerful TM,anyway we were talking about mobile dps something that just does not exist if you play mercenary,and pyro damage is just lackluster comapared to the powertech one

[Hilnarox]

Umm? Except for HSM? Granted it takes 5 heat stacks for it to do 3.5k+ but honestly, it's pretty easy to stack up. A tracer + exp. dart + HSM combo with a rail shot finisher makes a huge dent on someone's HP pool. My point is, you can argue to me about utility, slow mobility, and survivability regarding mercs, but I REALLY have to call BS on Mercs lacking dmg.

 

Never have I heard of a merc critting that high. Show me proof ill be convinced. Merc isn't known for there high crits.

[Gadrak]

hilnarox actually you can crit 3.5 with HSM but only with 5 Heat signatures on the target with level 50 epic gear

 

a sniper can do double of that damage with the same gear level tbh

[deanyo]

Yea exactly what Gadrak said, i mean i crit easy every time 4.8-5k with hsm with 1900+ aim and force adrenal though without the adrenal roughly 4.4k on average but obviously that isn't always static damage it's just an average. Agents however they can hit alot harder even with lesser gear, but still not complaining as merc still can rack out alot of damage especially spamming 3k tracers with 2 set bonus.

[SoNofHuD]

From lvl 30-49 I thought the same thing. Then I hit 50 and the amount of damage I'm doing is just crazy - and not just against the low lvl scrubs.

[Brockxz]

Hilnarox, yes I know what CC is. Crowd Control. I have played MMO since Ultima Online. Almost every major mmo i have played since then at least for 100+ hours so don't think that i don't know what i'm talking about. I have a lot of experience with a lot of mmo games and know what is what. Just that you don't want to try and find the ways how to overcome class disadvantages doesn't mean that Bioware needs to listen your cries here. AS i said, there will be a lot of class balancing patches but it is a lot too soon to think that it will be in near months. Yes, they most likely will break a lot of classes or will op some classes but that's the part of mmo. I just hope they won't stop support for the game as it happens for a lot of mmo games.

[Torkepl]

If your enemies are zombie enough to let You dish out dps from far - then You feel overpowered.

When some of melee start to focus you everything changes.

 

To WoW players - Merc BH remind pre WOTLK ele shaman (pre WOTLK - remember). When You dish dmg unfocused You deal crazy dmg and kill everything around. When focused You pretty much are dead. When peoples learn how to play and will always focus BH as primary targets (especialy melee guys) then u wont see those ''Merc is OP'' posts too much.

[Kunovega]

Umm? Except for HSM? Granted it takes 5 heat stacks for it to do 3.5k+ but honestly, it's pretty easy to stack up. A tracer + exp. dart + HSM combo with a rail shot finisher makes a huge dent on someone's HP pool. My point is, you can argue to me about utility, slow mobility, and survivability regarding mercs, but I REALLY have to call BS on Mercs lacking dmg.

 

You fail at reading comprehension

 

He said THE INSTANTS aside from rail shot are a pathetic amount of damage

 

The damage you just listed is a COMBO ROTATION not an INSTANT

 

Comprehend: A merc allowed to full on dps with a combo rotation puts out a ton of damage: yes. No one is argueing against this point.

 

Comprehend: The few instant casts (the things like rail shot that you know, hit instantly as soon as you push the button without requiring long cast or channel times) do comparably little (compared to other classes with lots of instant casts)

 

PVE mercs are fine, this conversation is for pvp.

 

Comprehend: PVP is not all about straight damage. PVP revolves on utility in relation to damage and in this regard: merc is downright awful.

 

Nothing a merc can do is better than any other classs in PVP. The only singular thing a merc is good for: damage is out classed or at least matched by several other classes while also bringing more utility to the fight than a merc.

[Nesso]

You fail at reading comprehension

 

He said THE INSTANTS aside from rail shot are a pathetic amount of damage

 

The damage you just listed is a COMBO ROTATION not an INSTANT

 

Well HSM is still an instant, so technically I'm correct. I still considered it was a combo dmg so that's why I made my caveat and pointed out that you needed 5 heat stacks for it to do big dmg. Even without heat stacks it does slightly more dmg than rail shot, and when you have both 5 stacks of rail and heat on target, HSM does significantly more dmg than rail. So yes, rail shot is not the hardest hitting instant that a merc has at his disposal, even w/o stacks.

 

As for the rest of your post, I already said you can argue about utility, mobility and survivabililty. I already pointed out in my post that I may concede those points.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Nesso

[AndrosX]

Well HSM is still an instant, so technically I'm correct, I still considered it was a combo dmg so that's why I made my caveat and pointed out that you needed 5 heat stacks for it to do big dmg. Even without heat stacks it does slightly more dmg than rail shot, and when you have both 5 stacks of rail and heat on target, HSM does significantly more dmg than rail. So yes, rail shot is not the hardest hitting instant that a merc has at his disposal, even w/o stacks.

 

As for the rest of your post, I already said you can argue about utility, mobility and survivabililty, I already pointed out in my post that I may concede those points.

 

And I think the point is just that: our damage does not justify the incredibly low amount of utility, mobility, survivability we have.

Just to be clear, as of now I do NOT think we should do more damage (we'll have to see when real parses from all combat classes come out), but I think the rest of our "arsenal" should be improved, both for Pyro and Arsenal specs (I don't know about bodyguard, never tried it).

If for some reason that shouldn't be possible, then the only solution would be to raise our damage or make some of our specials instacast, which would allow for more kiting/chasing without actually adding any new skills.

Though they would obviously have to make sure that our burst DPS doesn't raise so much that our targets die before they have time to react.

 

Again, that wouldn't be my preferred solution, I still think what we really need is survivability/mobility/CC, in oher words we need to stop being turrets.

[saido]

I enjoy my Merc but if I could do it again -- I'd go PT. No doubt.

 

It's tough at L10 to make a career choice without much experience with what the class offers. I'm ranged but I can't kite easily as a Merc. I guess in Wow-Speak this is a 'caster' -- 'root' and 'nuke'. I just don't have it in me to re-roll another BH to vary an AC.

 

Most fights go close quarter fairly quickly and I find things like flamethrower become useful at this point. It's like martial arts -- all fights go to the ground and if you can't control the ground you lose.

 

I've gone hybrid for survivability and versatility. Arsenal and Bodyguard. Though I may respec towards Pyro for some more mobility -- I read that incendiary missile and thermal detonator allow mobility. I've taken Biotech which may free-up the need for Bodyguard but the healing in the field helps a lot as Mako tends to pick a lot of unnecessary fights and I end-up letting her tank quite often =) Better her than me right.

 

DOTs also work well in warzones. I consider myself more of an OPVP'er but there's no OPVP really to speak of in SWTOR at this stage.

[Nesso]

And I think the point is just that: our damage does not justify the incredibly low amount of utility, mobility, survivability we have.

Just to be clear, as of now I do NOT think we should do more damage (we'll have to see when real parses from all combat classes come out), but I think the rest of our "arsenal" should be improved, both for Pyro and Arsenal specs (I don't know about bodyguard, never tried it).

If for some reason that shouldn't be possible, then the only solution would be to raise our damage or make some of our specials instacast, which would allow for more kiting/chasing without actually adding any new skills.

Though they would obviously have to make sure that our burst DPS doesn't raise so much that our targets die before they have time to react.

 

Again, that wouldn't be my preferred solution, I still think what we really need is survivability/mobility/CC, in oher words we need to stop being turrets.

 

Pretty much exactly how I feel about the issue.

[fest]

So...I have a question. Why are people saying one class or another is overpowered or underpowered based on their experiences below level 50? I just don't understand how people can be so idiotic. The game is obviously balanced around level 50, how can people not comprehend this?

[Gadrak]

better snares or a new CC is needed in order to make the class viable

 

or they can allow to the mercenary to cast while moving,like they did with ele shammy,to turn even for a limited time a stationary turret to a mobile turret,OR give ot us a jetpack leap to escape from melee units,(this one only for arsenal ofc)

 

more damage is just silly,mercenary damage is ok

[Hilnarox]

So...I have a question. Why are people saying one class or another is overpowered or underpowered based on their experiences below level 50? I just don't understand how people can be so idiotic. The game is obviously balanced around level 50, how can people not comprehend this?

 

Easy. If u have a class u will want to see what later talents or moves u can get at 50. But merc spent have any to increase its utility. So you think just because u will level and extra 10/15 levels somehow your going to get that utility? Even tho u don't get any moves to ur utility? ND other classes already out play u in every possible way but even tho u don't get a decent new moves, it will al be ok because u are 10/25 levels higher?

It's different if ur complaining and ur like level 12 but once u have expierienced play at like 30, u can guess that the thing ur lacking in, if its not getting more moves to help towards it, won't change much will it....

Funny thing is yesterday there was a full champion merc, and I said to him how is merc at 50, he said a pretty useless spec, he had just actually switched to pyro because he was hoping it would actually be viable for pvp. And I felt sorry for him because he said he may have to re-roll powertech and he put all that time into the merc..

 

 

You, my friend, are just confused

[Yabui]

better snares or a new CC is needed in order to make the class viable

 

or they can allow to the mercenary to cast while moving,like they did with ele shammy,to turn even for a limited time a stationary turret to a mobile turret,OR give ot us a jetpack leap to escape from melee units,(this one only for arsenal ofc)

 

more damage is just silly,mercenary damage is ok

 

Yes they really need to give us some sort of jet pack leap away, like the hunter's disengage in wow. The knockbacks are great, but if they have full resolve we are screwed. I played Sorc and they have that sprint thing which made it really fun to play, I just may switch for pvp to sorc.

[Elrias]

So...I have a question. Why are people saying one class or another is overpowered or underpowered based on their experiences below level 50? I just don't understand how people can be so idiotic.

 

I believe in this particular case, the criticizer you mention is really unjustified.

 

First, the majority of the people who have posted here do have level-50-experience.

 

Second, some people even have experience both as a mercenary and also as another class they have switched to because they were so dissatisfied with the mercenary in PvP. In this case, the old 'Learn to play'-argument does not really work, because it is difficult to explain why people are more successful with a lvl 33 sorcerer than with a lvl 50 mercenrary.

 

Third, even for the people who do not have lvl-50 mercenary-pvp-experience, it must be mentioned that the basic mercenary pvp-playstyle does not emerge with lvl 50; you get the basic abilities that your damage rotation is based on a lot earlier. Personally, I have played pvp as a mercenary from level 15 onwards. Playstyle really changed at lvl 20 thanks to tracer missile, and again at around 30 when I had received all upgrades for tracer missile and unload. From around 33 onwards, I did not feel any major changes in playstyle anymore. True, survivability increases to some extent (even though it remains relatively low compared with other classes), and the damage output still increases a bit thanks to heat-seeking missile, but the basic playstyle did not change anymore. Thus, i would say that even people who have only played the mercenary until lvl 30 or so can definitely say something reasonable about the class.

[Gadrak]

btw i HAVE a level 50 mercenary i own the FULL champion pvp gear,i can dish a lot of damage,and it's funny blowing lowies on WZ,but on the moment that a level 50 melee get the grasp on me im dead,maybe the only exception is the Gurdian/Juggernaut due to the low damage

 

Marauder:he will NEVER use the force leap to get on me,because a good marauder know sthat im going to use the aoe knockback to get him off me,he is going to trinket the stun,and without anymore defense on my advantage im dead,there is really anything that i can do unless getting chopped counts as a strategy,(and before someone comes here to say that i can combine power surge with concussion,well i cant,after 2 CCs,the resolve bar of the marauder is filled,and he will became immune to CC)

 

Assassin:considering that unless im very lucky to catch him with the stealth scan he will get the first shot on me,the aoe knockback is worthless as well,everytime i cast the jet boost on a good assasin he can easily come back on me by using the force sprint,and due to their ridicolous damage im going to die before landing the second tracer missile

 

Operative:he can kill me in a stun.........

 

powertech:almost our same damage,insanely better survivability impossible to get him off me due to the charge and the grapple

 

i managed to win some 1v1 fight but that's because im using pvp heals combined with the cybertech grenades,but that's it...

 

dont get me wrong our damage is very good,if i can complete the tracer HSM railshot unload combo i can kill almosty anyone,but finding a good player that will allow me to do so is another story...........

[renegadeimp]

btw i HAVE a level 50 mercenary i own the FULL champion pvp gear,i can dish a lot of damage,and it's funny blowing lowies on WZ,but on the moment that a level 50 melee get the grasp on me im dead,maybe the only exception is the Gurdian/Juggernaut due to the low damage

 

Marauder:he will NEVER use the force leap to get on me,because a good marauder know sthat im going to use the aoe knockback to get him off me,he is going to trinket the stun,and without anymore defense on my advantage im dead,there is really anything that i can do unless getting chopped counts as a strategy,(and before someone comes here to say that i can combine power surge with concussion,well i cant,after 2 CCs,the resolve bar of the marauder is filled,and he will became immune to CC)

 

Assassin:considering that unless im very lucky to catch him with the stealth scan he will get the first shot on me,the aoe knockback is worthless as well,everytime i cast the jet boost on a good assasin he can easily come back on me by using the force sprint,and due to their ridicolous damage im going to die before landing the second tracer missile

 

Operative:he can kill me in a stun.........

 

powertech:almost our same damage,insanely better survivability impossible to get him off me due to the charge and the grapple

 

i managed to win some 1v1 fight but that's because im using pvp heals combined with the cybertech grenades,but that's it...

 

dont get me wrong our damage is very good,if i can complete the tracer HSM railshot unload combo i can kill almosty anyone,but finding a good player that will allow me to do so is another story...........

 

Getting full champion gear doesnt prove anything. At all. You could still be terrible in pvp.

[Gadrak]

when i said level 50 with champion i was meaning that im well equipped and level 50,im not claiming to be good at pvp at all,im an average player tbqh,i just wanted to explain how the majority of my encounters vs close ranged classes are