Deception is memeworthy in wzs

[GeneralTiphis]

Have been playing awhile and while everything about deception clicks with me, I basically just die if anybody looks at me. I just feel in almost every objective based game I'm basically a liability. If I get the huttball it would be better if I immediately pass it as I die through all cd's in about 8ish secs and less if I get cc'd or am anything but 100% health.

[Alericus]

Your job is as end zone ball scorer , distraction and harrasment of the ball carrier in hutball. Sadly so many tanks want to duel and otherwise not be tanks its hard to not give the ball to the deception sin. Your strength isnt as a ball carrier that should be with those who can roll or survive the intnet but these days so many just want death match in every match you have to work with what you got. No easy solution.

[ABizarre]

You may have a wrong build or low gear. Deception is truly not an S tier in pvp, but its pretty descent even if we look only on dps without stealth activities. Yesterday I actually almost killed a pyrotech guy in 1v1 and most of the people thinks pyrotech is the best pvp dps

[GeneralTiphis]

21 hours ago, Alericus said:

Your job is as end zone ball scorer , distraction and harrasment of the ball carrier in hutball. Sadly so many tanks want to duel and otherwise not be tanks its hard to not give the ball to the deception sin. Your strength isnt as a ball carrier that should be with those who can roll or survive the intnet but these days so many just want death match in every match you have to work with what you got. No easy solution.

Sure but staying in melee for long in the open is brutal, I guess I'm just used to old school deception and conc op.

 

11 hours ago, ABizarre said:

You may have a wrong build or low gear. Deception is truly not an S tier in pvp, but its pretty descent even if we look only on dps without stealth activities. Yesterday I actually almost killed a pyrotech guy in 1v1 and most of the people thinks pyrotech is the best pvp dps

I'm ilvl 338 which while not the best is still respectable. I can duel just fine against most classes and los quite well against ranged when it's possible, but in the open, potentially being the target of more than 2 people, it's just basically instant death.

[GeneralTiphis]

Actually thinking about it we probably are the least evasive and least mobile class by a nice margin. Only real exception would be snipers except they are at least ranged so less susceptible to being kited. We have the least base damage reduction besides sorcs but they have plenty of abilities and passives with alot better uptime on defensives than sins do by a significant margin, and of course more mobility.

[ABizarre]

5 hours ago, GeneralTiphis said:

being the target of more than 2 people, it's just basically instant death.

Well, you're not suppose to fight against 2 ppl at once and force cloak is your best friend for this case. Fragility is a price for your stealth.

 

3 hours ago, GeneralTiphis said:

Actually thinking about it we probably are the least evasive and least mobile class.

You literally have teleport to ppl and ability to escape the battle at any moment.

[meddani]

sin dps have been hit the hardest in 7.0 with ability pruning , the class just feels incomplete

[GeneralTiphis]

6 hours ago, ABizarre said:

Well, you're not suppose to fight against 2 ppl at once and force cloak is your best friend for this case. Fragility is a price for your stealth.

 

You literally have teleport to ppl and ability to escape the battle at any moment.

Well to be fair stealth is of relatively niche utility. When they removed phase walk and removed baseline whirlwind it reduced stealth objective utility quite a bit. Granted the overall skill of most people in pvp has fallen quite a bit and so may not be as impactful as it once was.

And also every melee class has the ability to teleport to people and plenty with a shorter cooldown so not sure why that was your defense. Ours also isn't a root and interrupt like juggs and maras leap is. Roots simply used to be much less common and that's why we even have phantom stride now.

[ABizarre]

I think you just want sins to be a warriors with doudle-blade sabers. Without this "niche utility" (which is, actually, can give you a lot of benefits in each wz mode) and with "I wanna tank multiple people" abilities

[sithBracer]

2 hours ago, GeneralTiphis said:

Well to be fair stealth is of relatively niche utility. When they removed phase walk and removed baseline whirlwind it reduced stealth objective utility quite a bit. Granted the overall skill of most people in pvp has fallen quite a bit and so may not be as impactful as it once was.

And also every melee class has the ability to teleport to people and plenty with a shorter cooldown so not sure why that was your defense. Ours also isn't a root and interrupt like juggs and maras leap is. Roots simply used to be much less common and that's why we even have phantom stride now.

Just an observation, but if someone by their own admission can't beat a pyro PT with a deception sin, then they are clearly a person who should not be listened to or taken seriously, at all, ever.

You are pretty much correct, deception sins are pretty terrible in all manner of PvP except 4dps vs 4dps arenas in which case they are probably top 5. Once a tank or tank/heals is involved (and there is almost 1 tank in every warzones these days) sins are pretty much relegated to trash tier in any pvp. The problem is they have to blow everything on their opener, and once that is gone, they just become a taunt/low slash bot who can't do anything. And if a tank is around they just soak up your opener. Add to that, so many classes have god mode defenses these days that they can block your opener before you even finish it, and you aren't even allowed to delay it because of the shadowcraft timer. It's just not fit for anything other than meme videos where you walk around by yourself for 5 minutes searching for a terrible stray player to take out, or stand in the huttball endzone waiting for a pass but forcing your team to play one person down.

I honestly don't recommend playing this class at all unless you are just meme-ing with your friends, but if you really want, the correct way to play it is to always think of yourself as an assistant/finisher. You need to let the PT/jugg/sniper do all the work first and get someone down to a manageable hp and surprise them with your opener to finish them off before they run away or the healer can fix them up. It requires some patience and you need to pay attention to which DCDs your enemies used (you don't want to waste an opener on a god bubble that they were going to use anyway), but if you do it right it can help your team. Try to low slash the healers in the back and do some pressure on those in front while the PT and jugg run the show. I know it is going to be tempting to try to take a healer out if you see them standing alone. Don't do it, it's a trap, especially if its a merc healer. You will just waste your only burst phase and be stuck in the back lines for an easy kill and regroup for them.

Edited May 17 by sithBracer

[supertimtaf]

3 hours ago, meddani said:

sin dps have been hit the hardest in 7.0 with ability pruning , the class just feels incomplete

funniest thing I read today because if you think that this is due to ability pruning you're absolutely wrong.

Deception dps is low, for sure. It's not good in PvE, and not the best in warzone. I mean yeah you can just play a jugg and you'll do far better in general.
Sins do excel as soon as you can coordinate with another player to do things right. The ability to use CCs, swap target easily, still get a relatively okay sustained burst past your opener (granted you're not one of these players who run two cloak, blade of the elements is still best in that regard) makes them okay at followup in organized settings. They're still squishy as hell, and their burst is no-way as good as it was in 5.0 and before, for sure. The class will also excel in 1v1 against most opponents, provided they're not a sniper, but it requires considerable amounts of skill and knowledge of your opponent's class to be able to compete.

 

Point is, besides Spike and whirlwind, we lost *zero* offensive abilities with pruning. The main issue has been with the set bonuses/implant bonuses who were clearly made by someone who does not play Deception in the slightest. Death Knell was a terrible attempt at mimicking the previous set bonus, but the pre-nerf was absurdly bad because it didn't rely on Duplicity procs (capping it at one crit every ten seconds instead of just three instant crits). The post-nerf was even worse because it suddenly applied only one crit without compensating for the DPS loss anywhere (which begs the question, who at Broadsword thought that pre-nerf death knell was balanced, and who thought that post-nerf was balanced as well. And most importantly, do you need help with assassin's balancing because I'm rather sure that you need it).

Shadowcraft is the main culprit of Assassin's bad damage at the moment, as it forces you into that awkward spot of "you have six seconds of crit if you're in stealth". Just removing the "stealth" requirement (and maybe replacing it with a 1min cooldown) would help tremendously in making Deception better for PvE and PvP. In PvE because you'd have a more than okay burst every minute (once every two stride) and in PvP because you'd be dealing decent damage even without needing to open from stealth, which isn't a guarantee in warzones or arenas due to how taunts and combat in general works.

Point is, Deception was always a "know your opponent" type of class, the main issue right now is that broadsword is so afraid of making another death knell incident that they will not give the class anything good when it comes to legendary bonuses. Mostly because they *don't play the class so they don't know what to do with it.*

While I do miss spike, I doubt not having it is what makes me lose 2v1 though. The lack of decent crit multiplier and crit bonuses however...

Surely there is a middle ground regarding legendary bonuses. Maybe we should just work on one and send it to broadsword with the damage calculations, that way at least they wouldn't have the excuse of "our class balance team doesn't play the class sorry :((((("

[supertimtaf]

On 5/16/2024 at 1:30 AM, GeneralTiphis said:

Have been playing awhile and while everything about deception clicks with me, I basically just die if anybody looks at me. I just feel in almost every objective based game I'm basically a liability. If I get the huttball it would be better if I immediately pass it as I die through all cd's in about 8ish secs and less if I get cc'd or am anything but 100% health.

which server are you playing on ? If it's Malgus, maybe I can help you a bit, because while the class isn't great, I'm fairly sure that you're also not supposed to be a liability to your team if you know how to play it

[meddani]

32 minutes ago, supertimtaf said:

Point is, besides Spike and whirlwind, we lost *zero* offensive abilities with pruning.

Shadowcraft is the main culprit of Assassin's bad damage at the moment, as it forces you into that awkward spot of "you have six seconds of crit if you're in stealth". 

1. oh is that all? can't forget about how you have to specc into overload and that awesome maul spike which comes from weapon damage and can miss (happened more than enough)

2. atleast you're right there. one knockback or stun and your dmg is gone,

the class is below average now, every sniper/sorc/merc player that's a little bit skilled will pretty much own you.

[supertimtaf]

31 minutes ago, meddani said:

you have to specc into overload and that awesome maul spike

who in their right mind would open with that maul spike  This is one of the worse skill choice they added because it baits you into doing a bad move just for a too short cc that will instantly make your opponent use a defensive cooldown right after.

Overload with the root has much more versatile utility than a mere single use crowd control *that can miss*.

You'd want to open with Reaping slash from stealth with the guaranteed crit, followed by Discharge, recklessness into Maul for the extra crit multiplier+duplicity proc, then discharge again and one more reaping strike if your target didn't use a cooldown. If he did, fill with voltaic slash to build voltage and make the following reaping into a crit when the cooldown expired.
That's how you get a somewhat decent burst. Not by opening with an unprocced Maul from stealth :v

This isn't directed at you btw, just that i've seen way too many people open with that maul spike and they all sucked. So it's just better to take something else entirely and not make it seem like this thing is a good idea.

Edited May 17 by supertimtaf

[sithBracer]

26 minutes ago, supertimtaf said:

who in their right mind would open with that maul spike  This is one of the worse skill choice they added because it baits you into doing a bad move just for a too short cc that will instantly make your opponent use a defensive cooldown right after.

Overload with the root has much more versatile utility than a mere single use crowd control *that can miss*.

Actually opening with maul spike is a proper strategy for finishing off enemies who are trying to run away. Back in 7.0 solo ranked maul spike was the correct choice.

Also if you know what you are doing you can chain maul spike with a 5m+ low slash into a full reaping strike and he will still stay mezzed due to the glitch (feature?). This is a viable strategy against bad players to get them to waste a breaker, but it also forces even good players into a situation they prefer to not be in. It's also used as an interrupt. Deception was and still is top 5 in 4dps vs 4dps and proper use of maul spike is a power weapon.

 

26 minutes ago, supertimtaf said:

You'd want to open with Reaping slash from stealth with the guaranteed crit, followed by Discharge, recklessness into Maul for the extra crit multiplier+duplicity proc, then discharge again and one more reaping strike if your target didn't use a cooldown. If he did, fill with voltaic slash to build voltage and make the following reaping into a crit when the cooldown expired.

This is terrible advice. You do not open with reaping strike. You save it for the second or third hit to get the benefit of relic procs. Your reaping strike by default is your highest hitter and you also get an extra 20% crit bonus thanks to one of the talents. You need to put all your eggs in that basket and get that 90k+ crit to get your opponent low because you are not getting another one. Opening will maul spike in some cases is correct because not only does it sunder the opponent, it can be used as an interrupt and to stop them from running away from a teammate. 

If you think your opponent has tunnel vision or its a sorc with a flash bubble, then it would be better to open with discharge so you don't waste a recklessness discharge and you can get a little distance from your opponent to avoid the flash. Use reckless right after that to get another free discharge followed by a reaping strike/maul/discharge depending on your relic procs.

Also I see you are using the mutli-reaping strike talent. As one of the only sins who used it in solo ranked pre-nerf, I can promise you, it's trash now. The extra 20% is better in everything including PvE. I tested it many times. While the multi-reaping strike did get me the highest dummy parses, I always have a heart attack seeing my force drop so low and it is super clunky and not reliable.

 

Also using blade of elements? Seriously? No one who knows what they are doing uses it. You only use it to take a screenie of that one "big hit". If you want damage you use the awakened flame. I tested this myself many times. In the ideal situation on a full opener with awakened flame I get about 40-70k more damage than with blade and I don't have to risk myself getting hit by spamming lacerate out of stealth over and over.

Edited May 17 by sithBracer

[meddani]

42 minutes ago, supertimtaf said:

You'd want to open with Reaping slash. 

This isn't directed at you btw, just that i've seen way too many people open with that maul spike and they all sucked.

1. it's reaping strike 😛 and no it would be my 2nd or 3rd move. i'd still open with maul even without the spike because of the armor debuff and reaping strike will hit harder.

2. no worries, i was just highlighting the bad spike alternative lol

[supertimtaf]

7 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

5m+ low slash into a full reaping strike and he will still stay mezzed due to the glitch (feature?).

Feature yeah, else due to dsync the cc would be broken before it'd even land. One of the few things that still benefits us.

 

15 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

It's also used as an interrupt.

costly interrupt if you need to waste a cloak for this, if you ask me but that's situational and I get that.

 

16 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

Also I see you are using the mutli-reaping strike talent. As one of the only sins who used it in solo ranked pre-nerf, I can promise you, it's trash now. The extra 20% is better in everything including PvE. I tested it many times. While the multi-reaping strike did get me the highest dummy parses, I always have a heart attack seeing my force drop so low and it is super clunky and not reliable.

I find it better for longer fights personally, and I swap between both depending on what I play with or against. Keep in mind I sometimes like to swap out the recklessness on melee for the extra force regen too because you can actually deal more consistent damage against a tanky opponent like a jugg which is an endurance fight rather than a "burst fast" fight. It really depends the talent. Also, there seems to be some clunkyness with the way crit multiplier works with reaping atm, which is why I tend to avoid the 20% talent until I can know more about all of this. Basically, with blade of the elements and shadowcraft you're supposed to reach around 195% or more as a crit multiplier (at least with my current stats, may be even more if you ditch the accuracy) if you stack everything and it doesn't seem to work that way, still trying to figure out why.
 

21 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

Also using blade of elements? Seriously? No one who knows what they are doing uses it. You only use it to take a screenie of that one "big hit". If you want damage you use the awakened flame. I tested this myself many times. In the ideal situation on a full opener with awakened flame I get about 40-70k more damage than with blade and I don't have to risk myself getting hit by spamming lacerate over and over.

A matter of preference, I find blade more reliable with the setup I use because it gives consistent crits, rather than the mere 16k or lower dot you get from Awakened once you're past the opener. Again, I tend to find that my target will most likely still be alive once I finish my opener, so I don't bet all I have on it and prefer to give myself a more consistent high damage output through a longer fight. Your way works as well, but you're dealing considerably less damage past the initial "oompf" of the opener (which, no matter if it's yours or mine, will not kill a target).

Keep in mind that this is purely the ramblings of someone who's trying to understand why a theorized 100k hit is turning into a mere 60k even with armor debuffs on. My maths may be somewhat wrong, but I'm having way more success with this setup than with anything else I found over the internet. May be just a question of preference after all, who knows. Would still love to hit you in a duel at some point though, would prove quite the learning experience for myself at least

[supertimtaf]

2 minutes ago, meddani said:

reaping strike

damn me playing rep side with "vaulting slash" getting me all confused now 

[meddani]

35 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

 

Also using blade of elements? Seriously? No one who knows what they are doing uses it. You only use it to take a screenie of that one "big hit". If you want damage you use the awakened flame. 

we're talking about pvp, no one with two braincells uses awakened flame in warzones / arenas. blade of elements and the two cloak tactical is the best way to go.

awakened flame is a pve tactical .

[supertimtaf]

2 minutes ago, meddani said:

awakened flame is a pve tactical .

It depends, because with shadowcraft from stealth you can make the dot from awakened crit and that's a good thing from what I've heard. But it's kinda weird, and it's kinetic damage, not internal/elemental, meaning that it absolutely sucks against tanks, which is a shame.

[meddani]

2 minutes ago, supertimtaf said:

It depends, because with shadowcraft from stealth you can make the dot from awakened crit and that's a good thing from what I've heard. But it's kinda weird, and it's kinetic damage, not internal/elemental, meaning that it absolutely sucks against tanks, which is a shame.

tbf i never tried that because that dot doesn't hit hard in the first place lol

[supertimtaf]

4 minutes ago, meddani said:

tbf i never tried that because that dot doesn't hit hard in the first place lol

yeah, like I said, kinetic damage, so impacted by armor :'D Will not hit hard on targets with high armor but still brings a bit more dps than reaping with blade from what I've seen. Shame, I like the no-brain rotation :'D

[sithBracer]

6 minutes ago, supertimtaf said:

Keep in mind that this is purely the ramblings of someone who's trying to understand why a theorized 100k hit is turning into a mere 60k even with armor debuffs on. My maths may be somewhat wrong, but I'm having way more success with this setup than with anything else I found over the internet. May be just a question of preference after all, who knows. Would still love to hit you in a duel at some point though, would prove quite the learning experience for myself at least

We actually did the math and for the most part it is correct. The highest I did with blade of elements is 127k on a warzone dummy. So if combined with a red buff from warzones, a scoundrel 5% crit bonus, a sorc mastery bonus, a mara bloodthirst, you could reach close to 150k, which I heard has happened. Reaping strike does maybe 30k by default. so 200% of that is 90k, which is what I see pretty consistently when I use blade. With relic procs its in the 100ks, if you include the 20% bonus from voltaic slash and 20% bonus from talent that would be another 12-13k. Anyway, sure just DM me here and we can set something up. I'm on star forge.

[sithBracer]

35 minutes ago, supertimtaf said:

It depends, because with shadowcraft from stealth you can make the dot from awakened crit and that's a good thing from what I've heard. But it's kinda weird, and it's kinetic damage, not internal/elemental, meaning that it absolutely sucks against tanks, which is a shame.

Yes. Each dot will super crit for around 10k and if you can get the secondary ball lightning off it will also super crit. By opening with ball lighting from stealth you can also avoid sorc flash bubbles which are very annoying.

I tested this on a warzone dummy and in 5 GCDs with awakened flame I would get in the 370ks, while with blade I would get in the 320-330s. And once again when you factor in the fact that you have to be out of stealth spamming lacerate in order to take advantage of blade with shadowcraft, awakened flame is the clear winner. Anyone who tried both in warzones agreed with me every time.

As for tanks, well regardless deception is hot garbage when a tank is involved so it makes no difference which tactical you use.

As for long term fights, it doesn't make a difference overall (if you can survive that is) in terms of pure damage, but awakened flame is still better simply do to distance. With all the knockbacks and roots, you lose a lot of dps simply not being able to reach them.

Edited May 17 by sithBracer

[supertimtaf]

23 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

I'm on star forge.

we were on the verge of greatness for just a moment and you had to hit me with this
 

 

24 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

so 200% of that is 90k, which is what I see pretty consistently when I use blade.

I guess that something must be wrong with my stuff then because I have yet to see any of my blades go past the 60k mark, no matter how well the setup went. Which relic procs are you using ? Because I have the power/crit ones. I don't have the gold augments however, maybe that's where the missing things happen ? This is weird, I'll need to test it a bit more cause there's no way we should have a 30k difference when using the same setup. Except if you're using the 20% on reaping. But even that, 20% of 60k is *not* an extra 30k