When are we getting Vaylin/Vaylin's future

[Thenightvortex]

I'm really grateful for what the writing team did with Vaylin in Echoes of Oblivion as it adressed a lot of issues around her KOTET writing but they also gave a huge hint about her coming back in the body of Syl, she got a short appearance in a short story for 6.3, but after that, there hasn't been anything. I'd really love to see more of her in the story and I'm sure a sizeable portion of the fanbase feels the same way(otherwise I doubt she'd get brought back in the first place), and if anyone from the writing team is reading the forums, I hope you remember Vaylin and have plans for her. It would be great to see her in 8.0!

And as for my general thoughts on Vaylin's future, I think most people can agree that now that they(likely) brought her back, killing her off without giving a choice to spare her and potentially a romance option is stupid, as it was one of the major missed opportunities in KOT expansions. She could be a good dark side companion but given that they paired her up with Satele, it seems they're planning some sort of change arc for her(I don't want to use the term redemtpion since it might imply her becoming 100% good which doesn't suit her).

We have hints that Satele knows the truth about Syl's new identity and i think this relationship can make for an interesting narrative. Vaylin and Satele have some thematic parallels with other characters, Satele is a mother who gave away her son, Theron away and therefore strained his relationship with him. On the other hand, Vaylin is a child who was also given away by her mother and now deeply resents her for it. They are on the opposites side of this abandonment dynamic and perhaps them forging a bond can alter their outlook on those relationships? Satele is exactly the kind of person Vaylin needs, strong and empathetic, she can offer Vaylin guidance and handle whatever stunts she decides to pull, there's a lot of potential there.

What do people think about their future? How could it change depending on how player dealt with Senya, Arcann, and Theron? One thing I hope they don't do is make Vaylin recruitable only if you spare her family in KOTET, she's more than just an accesory to them and her arc shouldn't revolve around them. Not saying there can't be interactions if they're alive, but it shouldn't be the core of it. And one thing I really hope does happen is that Vaylin gets help and support that she really needs after all the trauma of her life.

[Whykara]

I think the Vaylin/Syl connection is just another narrative thread that will go absolutely nowhere. Would be cool though.

[Shayddow]

I really like when villains stay dead.

[BulbulusTheGreat]

shes dead.

[Thenightvortex]

On 2/26/2024 at 3:40 AM, Shayddow said:

I really like when villains stay dead.

It was a waste to kill her without an option in the first place, they could do much more with her.

On 2/26/2024 at 3:47 AM, BulbulusTheGreat said:

shes dead.

Unlikely, considering all the Syl hints.

[BulbulusTheGreat]

On 2/29/2024 at 11:52 PM, Thenightvortex said:

It was a waste to kill her without an option in the first place, they could do much more with her.

Unlikely, considering all the Syl hints.

100% im afraid, whatever redemption arc they planned they also diteched while rushing KOTET.

[Thenightvortex]

On 3/1/2024 at 11:18 PM, BulbulusTheGreat said:

100% im afraid, whatever redemption arc they planned they also diteched while rushing KOTET.

Agreed, I think both Arcann and Vaylin were supposed to be recruitable initially though perhaps they would be mutually exclusive, something like either you help Senya redeem Arcann and are forced to kill Vaylin, or help Vaylin kill both of them. The ending to the Eternal Throne saga was very rushed and while not entirely anticlimactic, it was a massive waste of opportunity. I know people are tired of old characters coming back, but at least it allows some glimpse into what could've been and in Vaylin's case, allow people who wanted her have her(in about 10 irl years I guess...Whenever they bring her into the story). Echoes in general has been an attempt to remake their vision of the finale with Revan, Meetra, Scourge, and all those other characters involved.

And it's not like the alternatives are some masterful story either. It's either rando mando gang wars or Malgus, yet another resurrected character.

[cosmicchar]

I usually prefer dead characters to stay dead, but Vaylin is an exception. She has a lot of unfinished business and I'd like to see more development for her. But I like the fact that we can't save her in KOTET. Unlike Arcann, Vaylin refuses every offer of mercy. Can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped. We have to kill her to stop her from killing everyone in her way. But as suggested during Echoes of Oblivion, she refused to let death stop her from finally being free, and resurrected herself as Syl. Hopefully this story point isn't abandoned. It makes her redemption (or not) arc different than Arcann's.

Also, I don't think I want her to be recruitable. Maybe a temporary companion instead. Her whole thing is about not answering to anybody anymore, after a lifetime of being caged, so it would be really weird if I could just randomly send her on a crew skill mission.

Anyone think Thexan might also come back? He also looks at Syl suspiciously during Echoes, right when Vaylin does.

[Thenightvortex]

15 hours ago, cosmicchar said:

I usually prefer dead characters to stay dead, but Vaylin is an exception. She has a lot of unfinished business and I'd like to see more development for her. But I like the fact that we can't save her in KOTET. Unlike Arcann, Vaylin refuses every offer of mercy. Can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped. We have to kill her to stop her from killing everyone in her way. But as suggested during Echoes of Oblivion, she refused to let death stop her from finally being free, and resurrected herself as Syl. Hopefully this story point isn't abandoned. It makes her redemption (or not) arc different than Arcann's.

Also, I don't think I want her to be recruitable. Maybe a temporary companion instead. Her whole thing is about not answering to anybody anymore, after a lifetime of being caged, so it would be really weird if I could just randomly send her on a crew skill mission.

Anyone think Thexan might also come back? He also looks at Syl suspiciously during Echoes, right when Vaylin does.

The problem with "refuses every offer of mercy" is that the offers themselves are very weak. Arcann refused those too until he was on the brink of death and had his mother pout out her heart before him. There are very few dialogue options that can even count as an attempt, and literally all of them are in chapters 3 and 4 aboard the Gravestone. Even then, you aren't allowed to call out Valkorion on her conditioning in front of her, which is fair, our character was probably in a state of shock and events were going way too quickly to process it immediately. But what about next encounters? In chapter 6 your characters uses conditioning and mocks her in front of the entire galaxy(literally forced by the game). They make no attempt to reason with her before, no option to try and reach out to her and only use the conditioning when necessary. You can offer her to surrender peacefully after that, but no one would accept that offer, evil or not.

Then chapter 8, after the player learn all she's been through on Nathema. An option to mention it and sympathize? To acknowledge her as a victim and try to convince her to fight Valkorion with you instead of treating her like a villain who needs redemption(which she is, but that isn't really how you get through to someone like her)? Nah, only lines like "Now I will make you suffer before you die" and "You can't be saved". Senya and Arcann are bad, too, in Chapter 6 it's implied that he knew about her conditioning and kept it from her, but he never has the gall to acknowledge it and either evades the question or lies depending on what Arcann you have there. In the fight in chapter 8 instead of finally admitting to it all he has is a self-righteous "We...Aren't afraid". Same for Senya. "My daughter is broken", "My daughter brought it on herself"? All those lines she says while her daughter is still alive and after she was ready to sacrifice everything for her son. Where is the apology, where is the begging for forgiveness? She does that in Echoes and Vaylin doesn't have a snarky comeback and doesn't talk back. She has a moment close to that on Arcann's flagship and Vaylin hesitates.

You can't help someone who doesn't want help, true, but you also can't say you tried when all of your attempts to reach out to a deeply damaged person amounted to "Oh well, if you stop what you're doing rn I won't kill you". I get that they had an intention for the story, but they executed it horribly and this is one of the major reasons I liked that they overturned it and gave Vaylin another chance. I agree with you that her arc should be different from Arcann's, and I think it wouldn't be a straight redemption arc, more like an evolution from a villain to an antihero. Would be a shame if they don't make her romanceable or a permanent comp but as long as she gets a good story, I'm fine with that.

[cosmicchar]

16 hours ago, Thenightvortex said:

The problem with "refuses every offer of mercy" is that the offers themselves are very weak. Arcann refused those too until he was on the brink of death and had his mother pout out her heart before him. There are very few dialogue options that can even count as an attempt, and literally all of them are in chapters 3 and 4 aboard the Gravestone. Even then, you aren't allowed to call out Valkorion on her conditioning in front of her, which is fair, our character was probably in a state of shock and events were going way too quickly to process it immediately. But what about next encounters? In chapter 6 your characters uses conditioning and mocks her in front of the entire galaxy(literally forced by the game). They make no attempt to reason with her before, no option to try and reach out to her and only use the conditioning when necessary. You can offer her to surrender peacefully after that, but no one would accept that offer, evil or not.

Then chapter 8, after the player learn all she's been through on Nathema. An option to mention it and sympathize? To acknowledge her as a victim and try to convince her to fight Valkorion with you instead of treating her like a villain who needs redemption(which she is, but that isn't really how you get through to someone like her)? Nah, only lines like "Now I will make you suffer before you die" and "You can't be saved". Senya and Arcann are bad, too, in Chapter 6 it's implied that he knew about her conditioning and kept it from her, but he never has the gall to acknowledge it and either evades the question or lies depending on what Arcann you have there. In the fight in chapter 8 instead of finally admitting to it all he has is a self-righteous "We...Aren't afraid". Same for Senya. "My daughter is broken", "My daughter brought it on herself"? All those lines she says while her daughter is still alive and after she was ready to sacrifice everything for her son. Where is the apology, where is the begging for forgiveness? She does that in Echoes and Vaylin doesn't have a snarky comeback and doesn't talk back. She has a moment close to that on Arcann's flagship and Vaylin hesitates.

You can't help someone who doesn't want help, true, but you also can't say you tried when all of your attempts to reach out to a deeply damaged person amounted to "Oh well, if you stop what you're doing rn I won't kill you". I get that they had an intention for the story, but they executed it horribly and this is one of the major reasons I liked that they overturned it and gave Vaylin another chance. I agree with you that her arc should be different from Arcann's, and I think it wouldn't be a straight redemption arc, more like an evolution from a villain to an antihero. Would be a shame if they don't make her romanceable or a permanent comp but as long as she gets a good story, I'm fine with that.

But there are options to sympathize with her. In KOTET Chapter 1: "I know the pain Valkorion must have inflicted on you, but killing him won't heal your scars." Vaylin loudly rejects your sympathy ("I have no scars!") and doesn't want you to acknowledge her as a victim. Arcann also extends sympathy in Chapter 6: "He made weapons of us both. Let me help you break free." Vaylin rejects that too, but I admit this is reasonable on her part because she's searching for a way to break her conditioning and he doesn't answer her. But I disagree on whether he knew everything and maliciously kept it from her. While it's true that he never went out of his way to help her (he never visited Vaylin on Nathema and only went there when Valkorion ordered him to), he likely didn’t know the exact details, since it’s very believable that Valkorion wouldn’t have shared such details with him. In any case, he can’t be expected to help her trauma, when he barely deals with his own. And their sibling relationship was always strained anyway, not the “be each other’s emotional support” type.

As her mother, Senya should be expected to help though, and I agree with you, her attempts in KOTET aren't as strong as they could've been (KOTFE Ch 16 and Echoes). Since they always meet in the heat of battle and there's no downtime for a sincere apology. But I wouldn't call her terrible for sacrificing everything for Arcann and not doing the same for Vaylin. Because before he’s healed, Arcann shows a small potential for redemption by pushing Vaylin back from killing Senya, and doesn’t contradict that potential later on. Vaylin hesitates, but then in KOTET goes right back to declaring how she’ll torture them all. With Vaylin, there's no potential for change to latch onto.

With every sympathetic dialogue option, it's the same amount of offers that are given to Arcann. He rejects them initially, but all his responses suggest he can be persuaded. Vaylin, on the other hand, violently rejects all offers and finds great pleasure in killing your character and her family, more than Arcann does. That doesn’t make her seem recruitable to me, like she would realize the error of her ways and fully join you as a companion. An anti-hero, sure, who will fight by your side sometimes but ultimately cares only for her own goals. Which is totally fine. Again, makes her different than Arcann. Her story has never been about atonement.

[Thenightvortex]

19 minutes ago, cosmicchar said:

But there are options to sympathize with her. In KOTET Chapter 1: "I know the pain Valkorion must have inflicted on you, but killing him won't heal your scars." Vaylin loudly rejects your sympathy ("I have no scars!") and doesn't want you to acknowledge her as a victim. Arcann also extends sympathy in Chapter 6: "He made weapons of us both. Let me help you break free." Vaylin rejects that too, but I admit this is reasonable on her part because she's searching for a way to break her conditioning and he doesn't answer her. But I disagree on whether he knew everything and maliciously kept it from her. While it's true that he never went out of his way to help her (he never visited Vaylin on Nathema and only went there when Valkorion ordered him to), he likely didn’t know the exact details, since it’s very believable that Valkorion wouldn’t have shared such details with him. In any case, he can’t be expected to help her trauma, when he barely deals with his own. And their sibling relationship was always strained anyway, not the “be each other’s emotional support” type.

The problem with chapter 1 line is that it immediately goes to "killing him won't heal your scars", and lecturing her on how she shouldn't want to kill someone who did all those horrible things to her isn't a good way to try and be sympathetic. It should've focused more on the fact that killing the character will not help defeat Valkorion(there is a line like that in chapter 3 and that's a better one). As for Arcann, I wouldn't have a problem with him if he indicated that betraying her in KOTFE wasn't an easy choice(not that he wouldn't have done it, just that it hurt to betray her) and that he regrets keeping details about her conditioning from her.

26 minutes ago, cosmicchar said:

 

As her mother, Senya should be expected to help though, and I agree with you, her attempts in KOTET aren't as strong as they could've been (KOTFE Ch 16 and Echoes). Since they always meet in the heat of battle and there's no downtime for a sincere apology. But I wouldn't call her terrible for sacrificing everything for Arcann and not doing the same for Vaylin. Because before he’s healed, Arcann shows a small potential for redemption by pushing Vaylin back from killing Senya, and doesn’t contradict that potential later on. Vaylin hesitates, but then in KOTET goes right back to declaring how she’ll torture them all. With Vaylin, there's no potential for change to latch onto.

There was a very clear moment of downtime, actually, the one where Vaylin says "Any last words..." before she attacks. This was the perfect opportunity for Senya to say the words that she did in Echoes. She would likely still reject them, but the attempt makes all the difference here. Vaylin showing hesitation should've been enough for Senya to continue trying to reach out. It would be harder than with Arcann and would require more effort, but out of all people in the galaxy, she's the one that's most obliged to try and help her whatever it takes, as she is part of the reason why she was locked away in the first place. Senya hearing Vaylin describing how she'll torture her is nothing compared to Vaylin actually going through such torture for a decade. Senya giving up on her daughter while she's still alive just doesn't sit right with me and honestly makes Senya downright irredeemable as a mother.

38 minutes ago, cosmicchar said:

With every sympathetic dialogue option, it's the same amount of offers that are given to Arcann. He rejects them initially, but all his responses suggest he can be persuaded. Vaylin, on the other hand, violently rejects all offers and finds great pleasure in killing your character and her family, more than Arcann does. That doesn’t make her seem recruitable to me, like she would realize the error of her ways and fully join you as a companion. An anti-hero, sure, who will fight by your side sometimes but ultimately cares only for her own goals. Which is totally fine. Again, makes her different than Arcann. Her story has never been about atonement.

There are some cut lines from chapter 8 where you can ask Vaylin to surrender and she says that Valkorion won't let her live if she does. There is also an uncut line in chapter 4 where your character says that they're willing to give themselves up if Vaylin spares their friends and her response is "we both know father won't let it happen". She's also far more reasonable with SCORPIO and seems to have forged some kind of friendship with her, she seems to tolerate her despite their disagreements and even admits that she's right on a couple of occasions, and she's far too angry and hurt when SCORPIO betrays her for it just to be an alliance of convenience(that is why I'm interested to see her relationship with Satele, a lot of potential there). She just hates her family and sees the Outlander as nothing more than Valkorion's new body, hence the dismissal of them. If there was a scene where the Outlander visibly resists Valk in front of her, this might cause some doubt in her mind and possibly read to a situation which is like with Arcann in KOTFE on Asylum, where he's willing to negotiate and Valkorion has to intervene personally to mess it up. She and Outlander can have a fresh start now that the Emperor isn't here to intervene, with or without Arcann and Senya alive.

That said, I like the anti-hero suggestion as well. There would be people who would complain if they don't make her a comp and romance but I personally wouldn't be one of them. I have fanfic for that :).

[Thenightvortex]

4 hours ago, cosmicchar said:

But I disagree on whether he knew everything and maliciously kept it from her.

Also on this part specifically, I don't think I addressed it in my post.

I don't think it was malicious per se, but I think it's implied that he knew about her code phrase, and that's due to the reaction he gives her in chapter 6. She asks him if he knew about the phrase, and if it's dark Arcann, he says "he never shared his secrets". If it's light Arcann, the response is, as you outlined, in your post, is to evade answering altogether. If he didn't know, then why not say so? He does so in the timeline where he dies. The Dark version doesn't have much of a moral code, so he casually lies to her, while the Light version isn't willing to lie but also doesn't have the courage to say it outright(which I think is perfectly understandable at that moment, if he admits it, she'd attack him immediately, but they could've addressed it in chapter 8 where he finally admits and apologizes). It's admittedly speculation on my part, but I can't see any other reasoning as to why they would give those specific reactions to both of his versions.

I don't think he kept it away with any malicious intent. On one side, he probably thought that Vaylin knowing the truth would make her feel enraged, inadequate, and maybe push her further towards chaos. On the other side, if one day she decides to challenge him, this can be the trick up his sleeve, and that's the only circumstance he'd use it in.

[erdanwright]

I think Vaylin is gonna return.  However, I hope that they kill her off again, and give her rest, this time for good, in a small update story a lot like Echoes of Oblivion.  Personally, I wish that if we fight her again, that she will either be destroyed for good by us or finally redeem herself, accept, peace, and become one with the Force.  Just my personal thoughts and hopes for Vaylin's future.

[Thenightvortex]

4 minutes ago, erdanwright said:

I think Vaylin is gonna return.  However, I hope that they kill her off again, and give her rest, this time for good, in a small update story a lot like Echoes of Oblivion.  Personally, I wish that if we fight her again, that she will either be destroyed for good by us or finally redeem herself, accept, peace, and become one with the Force.  Just my personal thoughts and hopes for Vaylin's future.

That should definitely be an option, but if they are bringing her back at all, then why deny the fans who wanted to have an option to keep her alive in some way?

[cosmicchar]

11 hours ago, Thenightvortex said:

Also on this part specifically, I don't think I addressed it in my post.

I don't think it was malicious per se, but I think it's implied that he knew about her code phrase, and that's due to the reaction he gives her in chapter 6. She asks him if he knew about the phrase, and if it's dark Arcann, he says "he never shared his secrets". If it's light Arcann, the response is, as you outlined, in your post, is to evade answering altogether. If he didn't know, then why not say so? He does so in the timeline where he dies. The Dark version doesn't have much of a moral code, so he casually lies to her, while the Light version isn't willing to lie but also doesn't have the courage to say it outright(which I think is perfectly understandable at that moment, if he admits it, she'd attack him immediately, but they could've addressed it in chapter 8 where he finally admits and apologizes). It's admittedly speculation on my part, but I can't see any other reasoning as to why they would give those specific reactions to both of his versions.

I don't think he kept it away with any malicious intent. On one side, he probably thought that Vaylin knowing the truth would make her feel enraged, inadequate, and maybe push her further towards chaos. On the other side, if one day she decides to challenge him, this can be the trick up his sleeve, and that's the only circumstance he'd use it in.

Interesting, we interpret his responses differently. I think both versions imply he does NOT know about the trigger phrase. In my previous post, when I said he doesn't answer her question, I meant he doesn't give the direct response that she wants: does he know and how to break it. She accuses him of keeping her away from the truth, believing he betrayed her. He answers indirectly because he wants to shift her focus back to Valkorion, their real enemy, either to help her find how to break it (light) or destroy Valkorion together (dark).

Dark Arcann: "He never shared his secrets." He resentfully says he doesn't know because Valkorion never shared those details. This isn't a lie. It's well established that Valkorion never thought Arcann was worthy of his affection/knowledge/power. So he definitely wouldn't have told Arcann the most crucial detail of Vaylin's conditioning.

Light Arcann: "Enough, Vaylin. I won't watch you destroy our home...He made weapons of us both. Let me help you break free." His focus is on stopping her destruction and extending sympathy.

[Thenightvortex]

2 hours ago, cosmicchar said:

Interesting, we interpret his responses differently. I think both versions imply he does NOT know about the trigger phrase. In my previous post, when I said he doesn't answer her question, I meant he doesn't give the direct response that she wants: does he know and how to break it. She accuses him of keeping her away from the truth, believing he betrayed her. He answers indirectly because he wants to shift her focus back to Valkorion, their real enemy, either to help her find how to break it (light) or destroy Valkorion together (dark).

Dark Arcann: "He never shared his secrets." He resentfully says he doesn't know because Valkorion never shared those details. This isn't a lie. It's well established that Valkorion never thought Arcann was worthy of his affection/knowledge/power. So he definitely wouldn't have told Arcann the most crucial detail of Vaylin's conditioning.

Light Arcann: "Enough, Vaylin. I won't watch you destroy our home...He made weapons of us both. Let me help you break free." His focus is on stopping her destruction and extending sympathy.

Hm, I can see that. The moment that makes me doubt is that he doesn't say "no" in the light version even though Vaylin's question was whether he knew about it. Surely he'd understand that trying to avoid the answer would only irritate her further? He could've said "I didn't know, but now that I do, I want to help you break free" or something along those lines.