Mass suiciders and you

[Darkestmonty]

39 minutes ago, Toraak said:

Then maybe that is what the weeklies need to be changed to. Earn 30-40 Medals in GSF.

it should be like that for all PvP dailies and weeklies. Instead the current win/lose system enables people to AFK and suicide instead of actually trying to win

Edited September 19, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Lord_Malganus]

56 minutes ago, Toraak said:

Then maybe that is what the weeklies need to be changed to. Earn 30-40 Medals in GSF.

This has also been suggested frequently for WZ Weeklies as well.

[Ramalina]

On 9/17/2023 at 10:28 AM, Darkestmonty said:

Not in a lot of games. Sadly some people only join to pad their dps scores, not to play objectives and win, some have no clue what they are doing because they are new and some only join to afk their way through dailies and weeklies. Your participation may mean nothing with certain teams and no amount of participation will effect the outcome if your team doesn't play objectives.

I think you're letting some of your Warzone/Arena gripes bleed over to GSF in ways that don't really apply much in observed behavior in GSF matches.

DPS isn't even an item on the scoreboard, it's only a tooltip popup if you mouse over the damage score, and I'd wager a sizable chunk of players in GSF matches aren't even aware that the popup exists.    DPS chasing also isn't really a thing in GSF the way it is in warzones.   Starfighter health pools are generally under 5k, and a lot of them are under 4 k, so you really have to work at it to do significant amounts of damage that aren't tactically relevant to the outcome of the match.  High DPS won't always win a match, but it's almost never useless.

 

Not playing objectives is also pretty rare in GSF.  Not playing them effectively is super common, but the static two red one green with most of both teams around the green type match is usually a symptom of too many people on the weaker team not knowing how to recognize an underdefended sat, not knowing how to effectively attack an underdefended sat, and not really having a good grasp of how close you actually have to be to turn a sat once it's been cleared.   They just realize that they can't manage taking a sat, so huddle under the friendly sat and try to stop a three cap.  They are playing objectives, they're just not much good at it.

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, Ramalina said:

I think you're letting some of your Warzone/Arena gripes bleed over to GSF in ways that don't really apply much in observed behavior in GSF matches.

DPS isn't even an item on the scoreboard, it's only a tooltip popup if you mouse over the damage score, and I'd wager a sizable chunk of players in GSF matches aren't even aware that the popup exists.    DPS chasing also isn't really a thing in GSF the way it is in warzones.   Starfighter health pools are generally under 5k, and a lot of them are under 4 k, so you really have to work at it to do significant amounts of damage that aren't tactically relevant to the outcome of the match.  High DPS won't always win a match, but it's almost never useless.

 

Not playing objectives is also pretty rare in GSF.  Not playing them effectively is super common, but the static two red one green with most of both teams around the green type match is usually a symptom of too many people on the weaker team not knowing how to recognize an underdefended sat, not knowing how to effectively attack an underdefended sat, and not really having a good grasp of how close you actually have to be to turn a sat once it's been cleared.   They just realize that they can't manage taking a sat, so huddle under the friendly sat and try to stop a three cap.  They are playing objectives, they're just not much good at it.

It is rare in GSF that people are not playing the objective?

When half your team is sitting on the one satellite you own, are they playing the objective?

When a few pilots ignore the satellite so they can fly around trying to pad their kill count, are they playing the objective?

When people are self destructing, are they playing the objective?

One of the biggest complaints about GSF are people who self destruct which to me does not seem like playing the objective.

But you are right, we are not padding our DPS in GSF, we are padding our kill count.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Ramalina]

21 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

When half your team is sitting on the one satellite you own, are they playing the objective?

Yes.  Not very effectively, but they are playing it.

21 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

When a few pilots ignore the satellite so they can fly around trying to pad their kill count, are they playing the objective?

If they're actually getting kills rather than just pew-pewing RFLs into empty space because they don't understand how aiming works in GSF, then yes, they probably are playing the objectives.  Especially in a strike or gunship going well off of the satellite when attacking can be the right thing to do.   Establishing yourself where your long range weapons like railgun, torpedoes, and HLCs can hit the enemy and they can't hit back, and distancing so that it's harder for enemies to exit the central region of your firing arc can significantly reduce time to kill on targets defending a sat.   So being 8 to 15 km away from a sat, isn't really a mistake, if you know what you're doing and are employing that distance effectively for gains.   Anyone who has enough of a kill count to be able to effectively pad it is almost certainly going to fall in  that group.   And if they can't then honestly it's not that much of a loss for them to be off a sat because the chance that they were doing anything useful in the first place is pretty low.   If they learn how to shoot, defend, and get kills by chasing other clueless noobs around the match, then eventually they'll be able to translate that to doing useful things on the sat, so it doesn't bother me all that much.

      You can also have cases where interdiction of enemy ships makes sense.  If you can find a competent or even a semi-competent bomber, it is much, much, much better to zip 20 or 30 km off the sat and kill them in transit than it is to wait for them to get forted up on the sat.  Once they're on the sat they're going to decimate your team's noobs, they're going to be much more time consuming to kill, and because weak players are generally very ineffective at dealing with bombers it pretty much forces good players on your team to drop what they're doing and go pry out bombers even if that's not really the best use of their time.    Even for non-bomber targets there can be benefits.  If you can kill enough enemies fast enough to keep 4 or 5 of them stuck on the respawn screen or shuttling from their cap ship, then your team effectively gets a 3 to 4 player advantage in numbers, and if the rest of your team can't turn that much of an advantage into a win, then victory probably wasn't in the cards anyway.

   So the summary on this one is, if they're good enough to effectively play objectives, then yes, odds are that they're playing objectives, and if they're not good enough then it's not really much of a detriment to your team.

21 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

When people are self destructing, are they playing the objective?

Very rarely.   Tensoring and suiciding is enough of a tactical strategy that it has it's own name, tensorcide.   The T3S is good enough now that you don't really need to do that because being stuck in a tensor scout for a whole match isn't really the handicap that it used to be, but tensor field is game changing enough and other ships are sufficiently more potent on offense, defense or utility, that in some cases tensorciding may give a team a slight advantage.   There are also people who when on the wrong side of a big map, low on resources, or recognizing the flow of the match has led their initial ship choice to be significantly inferior to another ship on their hangar bar, will choose to do a tactical SD so that they can respawn in a fresh and appropriate ship in the right place.

         That's different from chain SDs of course, but chain SDs aren't really about optimization for rewards anyway.   They're about childish spite and throwing a tantrum because the player who hasn't bothered to learn the needed skills for a skill sensitive game is doing poorly due to their lack of skill.   Incentive structures tend not to do a great job of curing immaturity.   The existing reward structure already biases rewards moderately strongly toward effective participation.   You get more stuff faster if you participate effectively.  As very much a former "srs bzns" type raider who optimizes gameplay almost reflexively, I assure you that going all out in every match in the long run is the most profitable pattern in GSF.   For the griefers it doesn't matter.  They don't want to optimize.   The want to spawn in, put their companion on auto-attack, and collect rewards.  It's resentment that this doesn't work in GSF that drives the bad behavior.   Making rewards take longer for non-participators is just going to mean the non-participators are queuing and not participating in more matches, as they SD through TDMs and park under the one green sat for Doms, until they collect enough defense medals and cycle through all four ship classes to get the objective.  Wins count double in the current structure.  If a 100% increase in rate of return isn't enough to motivate participation, then I'm very skeptical that a medal based structure that lends itself very easily to a "SD through all TDMs, and park a ship under a friendly sat the whole match for defense medals," is going to do any better.

[Darkestmonty]

You and I both know that when half a team is afking on one satellite waiting for the game to end they aren't playing the objective and pilots that chase enemies around ignoring captures and defense to pad their kill count are no more playing the objective than players on voidstar chasing enemies up to their spawn instead of guarding the door.

You can play semantics all you want but people in gsf can ignore objectives as easily as those in warzones.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Spikanor]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:13 AM, Toraak said:

Then maybe that is what the weeklies need to be changed to. Earn 30-40 Medals in GSF.

and if there chance the weeklies from compleeting the match to medals who is telling the suicide problem in GSF will be fix.

you also know good that the suicide problem and other problems in GSF and PVP has notting to do with the weeklies at all.

 

a option can be there lower the conquest rewards for the PVP and GSF weeklies the same thing there have done with the tech fragments can there also do with the conquest points.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Spikanor

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, Spikanor said:

and if there chance the weeklies from compleeting the match to medals who is telling the suicide problem in GSF will be fix.

you also know good that the suicide problem and other problems in GSF and PVP has notting to do with the weeklies at all.

 

a option can be there lower the conquest rewards for the PVP and GSF weeklies the same thing there have done with the tech fragments can there also do with the conquest points.

Dailies and weeklies is why a lot of people suicide in GSF, AFK on satellites and in Warzones. Team balance being completely one sided doesn't help the issue, but a lot of people are there only for dailies and weeklies due to tech frags.

If participation (earning medals) was the only way to complete dailies and weeklies we would have a lot less suiciders in GSF and AFKers in Warzones.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Lord_Malganus]

24 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

Dailies and weeklies is why a lot of people suicide in GSF, AFK on satellites and in Warzones. Team balance being completely one sided doesn't help the issue, but a lot of people are there only for dailies and weeklies due to tech frags.

If participation (earning medals) was the only way to complete dailies and weeklies we would have a lot less suiciders in GSF and AFKers in Warzones.

The Dev team designed Pvp daily's and weekly's to provide tech frag rewards to AFKers, both encouraging and supporting it.

Dev Team Motto: AFK is the Way!

Edited September 21, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[Spikanor]

48 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

but a lot of people are there only for dailies and weeklies due to tech frags.

there have lower the tech fragments rewards you get all from it so that most not be the main problem anymore to do it.

or there need to remove the tech fragments from the rewards compleet then if its still is the problem.

[Darkestmonty]

40 minutes ago, Spikanor said:

there have lower the tech fragments rewards you get all from it so that most not be the main problem anymore to do it.

or there need to remove the tech fragments from the rewards compleet then if its still is the problem.

PvP allows people to passively earn tech frags, finish dailies and weeklies, earn a lot of very easy conquest points, and finish Galactic Season and PvP Season goals.

An AFKer in Warzones or self destructor in GSF can spend very little to no effort helping their team and accomplish everything above at the same pace as the team mates on their team trying their best.

What's easier, AFKing in a warzone and self destructing every minute in GSF while watching Netflix or playing another game or actively paying attention to the PvP match, playing, and still losing the match and being rewarded the same as the AFKer or self destructor?

Edited September 21, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Spikanor]

Just now, Darkestmonty said:

PvP allows people to passively earn tech frags, finish dailies and weeklies, earn a lot of very easy conquest points, and finish Galactic Season and PvP Season goals.

A self destructor in GSF, an AFK in a Warzone can do nothing to help their team and accomplish everything above at the same pace as the team mates on their team trying their best.

then there are 2 solutions there need to do.

remove the tech fragments from the daily's and weekly's as reward and not add PVP/GSF objective's in the gelactic season's anymore.

[Darkestmonty]

4 minutes ago, Spikanor said:

then there are 2 solutions there need to do.

remove the tech fragments from the daily's and weekly's as reward and not add PVP/GSF objective's in the gelactic season's anymore.

or use a solution that already exists. Reward people based on medals earned. This system is already used in Galactic Season and PvP Season.

I'll be very blunt, without tech frags as a reward for either GSF or Warzones, I wouldn't waste my time on either and they are the most enjoyable part of the game for me.

Even with no tech frags people will still AFK and self destruct to earn conquest points, complete Galactic Season, and PvP season objectives.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Spikanor]

1 minute ago, Darkestmonty said:

or use a solution that already exists. Reward people based on medals earned. This system is already used in Galactic Season and PvP Season.

I'll be very blunt, without tech frags as a reward for either GSF or Warzones, I wouldn't waste my time on either and they are the most enjoyable part of the game for me.

then the problem is still not fix.

in the GSF players afk then still in the domination mode to get the defence medals so its not fixing the problem at all.

same go's for the PVP part when you have domination game mode's players also keep afken to get the defence medals there get.

and players leave then the other game mode's faster and you creat a new problem with that also.

[Darkestmonty]

2 minutes ago, Spikanor said:

then the problem is still not fix.

in the GSF players afk then still in the domination mode to get the defence medals so its not fixing the problem at all.

same go's for the PVP part when you have domination game mode's players also keep afken to get the defence medals there get.

and players leave then the other game mode's faster and you creat a new problem with that also.

if you can only advance your dailies and weeklies AND Galactic Season/PvP Season by earning medals, self destructors and AFKers will have a very hard time advancing anything because they won't earn medals (except for Warzones where team scores in huttball give everyone on the team a single medal).

[Ramalina]

6 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

if you can only advance your dailies and weeklies AND Galactic Season/PvP Season by earning medals, self destructors and AFKers will have a very hard time advancing anything because they won't earn medals (except for Warzones where team scores in huttball give everyone on the team a single medal).

Defense medals are by far the easiest medals to earn in GSF.  You find a green sat, park your ship under it and AFK.   As long as you're in range to get the defense medals the game counts you as participating, so you aren't even at risk for an AFK timeout auto-kick.   All you have to worry about is someone one the other team coming over and blowing up your ship.

 

That means that in a medals only reward structure, the toxic reward farming strat is: bail from the first TDM that pops because the queue timeout is probably quicker than waiting for the game to finish even if you SD as hard as possible.  Queue again, and if it's a Dom take a bomber, find a nook under a green sat, dump out all your mines and drones, strafe a bit to hide behind them, and then AFK while you farm a big stack of defense medals.  If it's a TDM serial SD as fast as possible because there will be no rewards without effort, so you need to end the match so you can get a Dom match.

 

Medals only reward structure is pretty much a recipe for turning every TDM in to a SD festival and every Dom into a camp the one green sat game.  Attempting to win and attempting to meaningfully participate go from being merely irrelevant to things to actively be avoided, if you're that kind of player.

 

The reward scheme that might turf out the SDers would be Ship requisition, Fleet requisition, XP, and nothing else.   No fleet coms, no gear, no currencies, no anything that is of any use whatsoever outside of GSF.  Nothing to bring people to GSF other than the inherent enjoyment of GSF.

 

That's the solution for all areas of play though.  Warzones, Areanas, FPs, Ops.  No loot for anything, just the intrinsic fun of playing the game.   Then we'll all just have to buy all our gear from Crafters, and they will be SOOOOOOO happy.  Win for everyone I guess.   Wouldn't hold my breath for it though.

[Darkestmonty]

20 hours ago, Ramalina said:

Defense medals are by far the easiest medals to earn in GSF.  You find a green sat, park your ship under it and AFK.   As long as you're in range to get the defense medals the game counts you as participating, so you aren't even at risk for an AFK timeout auto-kick.   All you have to worry about is someone one the other team coming over and blowing up your ship.

 

That means that in a medals only reward structure, the toxic reward farming strat is: bail from the first TDM that pops because the queue timeout is probably quicker than waiting for the game to finish even if you SD as hard as possible.  Queue again, and if it's a Dom take a bomber, find a nook under a green sat, dump out all your mines and drones, strafe a bit to hide behind them, and then AFK while you farm a big stack of defense medals.  If it's a TDM serial SD as fast as possible because there will be no rewards without effort, so you need to end the match so you can get a Dom match.

 

Medals only reward structure is pretty much a recipe for turning every TDM in to a SD festival and every Dom into a camp the one green sat game.  Attempting to win and attempting to meaningfully participate go from being merely irrelevant to things to actively be avoided, if you're that kind of player.

 

The reward scheme that might turf out the SDers would be Ship requisition, Fleet requisition, XP, and nothing else.   No fleet coms, no gear, no currencies, no anything that is of any use whatsoever outside of GSF.  Nothing to bring people to GSF other than the inherent enjoyment of GSF.

 

That's the solution for all areas of play though.  Warzones, Areanas, FPs, Ops.  No loot for anything, just the intrinsic fun of playing the game.   Then we'll all just have to buy all our gear from Crafters, and they will be SOOOOOOO happy.  Win for everyone I guess.   Wouldn't hold my breath for it though.

Medals for GSF need to be reworked like Huttball. Everyone on the team should gain a satellite capture medal and there needs to be more medals for attackers and damage dealers along with heals and missile resuppliers.

The devs have ignored GSF so long that medal earning possibilities are overly strict and preferential to satellite maps.

And maybe show medals again, not sure why they hid medals since we all know they still exist and for some reason don't seem to be an issue in Warzones.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Ramalina]

They didn't hide medals.   They broke the scoreboard UI.  The underlying code that tracks the objectives is still there, but the GSF scoreboard is just a modified version of the pre-7.0 warzone scoreboard, that the devs didn't have enough sense to fork into it's own independent module.   The result being that every time they do something to mess up or change warzone scoreboard functionality it also messes up the GSF scoreboard.   The cherry on top is that at this point they've lost so many devs that they don't even know how to fix what they've broken, so we're stuck with a broken GSF scoreboard.

As far as the medals spread goes, I think it's something like 19 or 20 possible medals in TDMs and 21 or 22 in Dom.   The biggest medal earning difference is that in Doms "park under green sat" is all you need to earn a modest stack, while in TDMs in order to earn any medals at all a modest amount of competent participation is required.   Mind you, a modest stack from parking under a sat is still only 20 to 25% of what you could earn, but it's more than the 0% you get for making no effort in a TDM.   Most skilled players I know of don't really see much of a difference in total medals earned between TDM games and Dom games.  There's not really a significant bias toward the Dom game mode.

 

I've solo captured enough satellites at this point to pretty strongly disagree with the premise that the whole team deserves sat capture credit when one sat is captured.   If you're not in capture range, in general you shouldn't get credit.

[Darkestmonty]

On 9/22/2023 at 9:49 PM, Ramalina said:

They didn't hide medals.   They broke the scoreboard UI.  The underlying code that tracks the objectives is still there, but the GSF scoreboard is just a modified version of the pre-7.0 warzone scoreboard, that the devs didn't have enough sense to fork into it's own independent module.   The result being that every time they do something to mess up or change warzone scoreboard functionality it also messes up the GSF scoreboard.   The cherry on top is that at this point they've lost so many devs that they don't even know how to fix what they've broken, so we're stuck with a broken GSF scoreboard.

As far as the medals spread goes, I think it's something like 19 or 20 possible medals in TDMs and 21 or 22 in Dom.   The biggest medal earning difference is that in Doms "park under green sat" is all you need to earn a modest stack, while in TDMs in order to earn any medals at all a modest amount of competent participation is required.   Mind you, a modest stack from parking under a sat is still only 20 to 25% of what you could earn, but it's more than the 0% you get for making no effort in a TDM.   Most skilled players I know of don't really see much of a difference in total medals earned between TDM games and Dom games.  There's not really a significant bias toward the Dom game mode.

 

I've solo captured enough satellites at this point to pretty strongly disagree with the premise that the whole team deserves sat capture credit when one sat is captured.   If you're not in capture range, in general you shouldn't get credit.

this whole time I thought they hid medals intentionally because they have left it that way for months now. TDM needs more medals to help lower skilled players because hitting a lot of veteran players can be next to impossible for someone that has never played GSF let alone flight sims.