Mass suiciders and you

[Stradlin]

Instead of waiting to see if Broadsword ever does something about these guys in terms of game mechanics, I figured a friendly reminder is in place. Blatant mass suiciding ruins the matches for everybody else. This type of griefing is prolly a cause for ban and counts as win trading. Back in 2019, BW opened a mail for reporting cheating and win trading in SWTOR pvp,   pvpReports@swtor.com   Tbh I've no clue if anyone still reads that mail.. communitysupport@swtor.com is another safe bet at least.  Report&record them and, importantly, inform the griefer you've done as much. I believe this is likely more effective in preventing mass self destruct than just sitting here, idly hoping BW changes mechanics.

If you encounter a mass suicider, here's my recommendation:

* Always play with Geforce Experience or some other video recording software ready to be fired up.

* You spot a pure bread mass suiciding win trading griefer pretty fast, like 1 minute in to a match. Once you do, begin recording the match, encourage everybody else to do the same. Inform win trader you'll upload his performance and proceed to mail the video link  to  every single relevant  Broadsword email you can find.  pvpReports@swtor.com and communitysupport@swtor.com   come  to mind. Be sure not to leave it as an idle promise,  actually do as much. It is super easy to upload videos to youtube. You can leave video unlisted so only people who get the link can find it. Leaving it unlisted also makes it handy to see if  it has gotten any views: did anybody on Broadsword actually bother to check it out.

* No need to really visually track the griefer..though getting few of his mad dashes from spawnpoint to capitalship hull or  asteroid would def make compelling footage. Endless red waterfall of " X has self destructed" messages plus the scoreboard in the end is a powerful combination to behold if anyone in Broadsword bothers to really check the video. 

* Be sure to also write an in-game customer support  ticket of the person. When you do /ignore playername it tells you his legacy. Include character name,  legacy name and encourage the GM  person reading it to check the griefers GSF stats. Namely total matches played and total deaths. If you can't record a video of  his actions, please be sure to do at least this much. If you did record a video, maybe write the customer support ticket only once you can include the video link there as well. 

* Mailing some random video   link with 0 context  won't do. GM tickets and mails alike, express yourself with some amount of clarity. What happened, who  did the griefing, how is it obvious they were griefing?

* Tbh I bet the most important bit in all of the above is informing the gfriefer immediately, right as you begin recording, that you are recording it, reporting it, and sending the video to Broadsword. Maybe some of them sometimes end up with " Hm, I  and/or my guild might actually be banned for this." type of a realization. Don't insult them, don't flame them, don't get stuck in some ridiculous trollish argument with them. Just let them know you do your best to send a video link of their in-game  actions to every single relevant Broadsword mail you can find.

Apparently, at least rumors suggest,  People HAVE eventually gotten banned over  mass suiciding in GSF  in past, just matter of gathering enough evidence, so don't just be a victim of the griefer, do your part in shooting the griefer from GSF sky for good. One video by you likely won't  get the griefer banned. Your video followed by somebody else doing the same next week, plus few tickets written by others here and there? Maybe it'll  eventually work.

I've only ever done this whole video bit once,  seen pure mass suiciders only 3-4 times over last six months or so. I assume I've been very  lucky. Then again, I play very little and as a result  fly very little nowadays.Plus apparently, the most prominent one did finally get banned like a year back.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Stradlin

[Saeten]

You are entirely correct on lazy leeching suiciders.  They can cost you a match or worse.  But, if a TDM is 100% going wrong (like 1min in 20:1 and you are losing, there is no point in trying anymore and you are better off just suiciding to make the match end faster. It's just like doing /stuck in an arena when the other side is overpowered.  This can put you in a better position mentally to continue to play.  Also, I don't give the satisfaction to the winning side by giving them more kills.

[philwil]

@Saeten

Yeah, thats just bad sportsmanship.  Thats being a not too good player at all.  Possibly stop queueing and screwing up matches if you are going to self destruct.

  Other than by mistake of course.  But intentional self destruction at any time isnt good practice.

Its even more funny when people self destruct in a DOM.  Because they have to do it 1000 times.

Just think.  YOU and people with your mentality are the reason people group.

Txs in advance.

[Saeten]

1 hour ago, philwil said:

@Saeten

Yeah, thats just bad sportsmanship.  Thats being a not too good player at all.  Possibly stop queueing and screwing up matches if you are going to self destruct.

 

Just think.  YOU and people with your mentality are the reason people group.

Txs in advance.

Wow. Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are sorely mistaken. Not bad sportmanship at all. It's the nature of the game. You must be one of those sweaty try-hards that can't read.  I stated that if a TDM match is going so badly, that it's easier to just self-destruct and make the match end faster. This is the way. There is no need to give up anything to the other side and the time is better spent not wasting on just flying into a mass group and getting killed. Why give them the benefit of roflstomping? There is no benefit to me. It's not bad sportmanship if your side is losing so badly that it's not worth the time or effort to even waste your sanity on flying for the match anymore.  Anyways, good luck in your endeavours and thx in advance for appreciating my sentiment.

[DakhathKilrathi]

hey just throwing this out there if you guys were looking for someone to report someone in this thread is admitting that they throw games on purpose 

[sharpenedstick]

Yeah. The problem is premades are almost as bad as suicides. So if that guy is using suicide to get out of premade games faster, that's arguably the only defensible use. Ideally, premades are kicked to their own queue (which as we all know will never pop) and suiciders get banned. Until then, we just have to suffer.

Edited August 2, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[philwil]

4 hours ago, Saeten said:

Wow. Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are sorely mistaken. Not bad sportmanship at all. It's the nature of the game. You must be one of those sweaty try-hards that can't read.  I stated that if a TDM match is going so badly, that it's easier to just self-destruct and make the match end faster. This is the way. There is no need to give up anything to the other side and the time is better spent not wasting on just flying into a mass group and getting killed. Why give them the benefit of roflstomping? There is no benefit to me. It's not bad sportmanship if your side is losing so badly that it's not worth the time or effort to even waste your sanity on flying for the match anymore.  Anyways, good luck in your endeavours and thx in advance for appreciating my sentiment.

As I stated, any intentional self destructing is bad.  No matter how you look at it.

And, as you say, im a "try hard" because yes, i like to win.  I do the best i can.  Someone who gives up like you turn my stomach.  Doing what you say you do, you will never get better at gsf.  Not to mention, other players think you are not great either too.

Intentionally self destructing to end a match faster is in fact, re portable.  If people wanted to go that route.  Which could mean banning for  a few days to weeks.

You must be new.  

We arent.

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, philwil said:

As I stated, any intentional self destructing is bad.  No matter how you look at it.

And, as you say, im a "try hard" because yes, i like to win.  I do the best i can.  Someone who gives up like you turn my stomach.  Doing what you say you do, you will never get better at gsf.  Not to mention, other players think you are not great either too.

Intentionally self destructing to end a match faster is in fact, re portable.  If people wanted to go that route.  Which could mean banning for  a few days to weeks.

You must be new.  

We arent.

I have been in games where I get 5-6 kills, finally die, then look at the scoreboard and notice it is 6 to 30. Some how I managed to get all my teams kills and in that time span they were able to get zero kills but die 30 times.

That game is a wipe, there is no amount of "try hard" to win. The game is over.

Although I did run into one guy like you. He said he was 0 and 40, then he got his team to change tactics and they went 50 to 40 and won. I don't know, something about his story sounded made up but I can't put my finger on it.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[philwil]

I can say as a guy who has lost 50-17, and having 16 of those kills, or even im a match we lost 50-48, and I had 35, I dont give up.  

If i get discouraged, i just dont fly.  I dont self destruct other than by accident.

losing 40 to nothing and coming back to win 50-40 isnt a thing.

If its a losing match, like you feel you cant win it, use the time to get better.

Self destructing on purpose is a losers mentality.

This will be my last post here.  It makes my skin crawl.

[ValeriyaBlue]

11 hours ago, Saeten said:

You are entirely correct on lazy leeching suiciders.  They can cost you a match or worse.  But, if a TDM is 100% going wrong (like 1min in 20:1 and you are losing, there is no point in trying anymore and you are better off just suiciding to make the match end faster. It's just like doing /stuck in an arena when the other side is overpowered.  This can put you in a better position mentally to continue to play.  Also, I don't give the satisfaction to the winning side by giving them more kills.

Yeah, this is very bad sportsmanship, and is extremely dishonorable imo. Even some really good or really bad starts to a match can have the tables turned, and by SDing you are robbing not only yourself but everyone else on your team of a chance for a glorious turnabout. 

And trust me, I’ve had some really bad teams. Unwinnable matchups. Like this:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1109126927471616100/1136534462876876830/image0.jpg
 

And what did I do? I fought to the last breath, even when it became clear that victory was impossible. Because if I was going to lose, I was going down fighting, even if it meant going 1v8 against their entire team. 
 

Throwing the match brings the utmost shame and dishonor upon you, and I hope that you will reconsider doing so in the future. 

[Darkestmonty]

On 8/3/2023 at 1:48 AM, ValeriyaBlue said:

Yeah, this is very bad sportsmanship, and is extremely dishonorable imo. Even some really good or really bad starts to a match can have the tables turned, and by SDing you are robbing not only yourself but everyone else on your team of a chance for a glorious turnabout. 

And trust me, I’ve had some really bad teams. Unwinnable matchups. Like this:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1109126927471616100/1136534462876876830/image0.jpg
 

And what did I do? I fought to the last breath, even when it became clear that victory was impossible. Because if I was going to lose, I was going down fighting, even if it meant going 1v8 against their entire team. 
 

Throwing the match brings the utmost shame and dishonor upon you, and I hope that you will reconsider doing so in the future. 

There are games where you know your team can not win. Since there is no bonus for doing well, why try? Dishonor means nothing in a video game that was created with grinding as the focus for content.

If we had a bonus for being the top players on our team, maybe people would try more. If we had a bonus for each kill, maybe people would try more. If dailies and weeklies were based on medals earned instead of win/loss, maybe people would try more.

SWTOR is a grind, since skill does not matter in a losing game, there is very little reason to put in effort.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Stradlin]

9 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

There are games where you know your team can not win. Since there is no bonus for doing well, why try? Dishonor means nothing in a video game that was created with grinding as the focus for content.

 

Waters get pretty muddy real fast here. Like..take somebody who was not in that match. GL explaining them how YOUR 7 self destructs were somehow  constructive and righteous, and totally unlike those of a nasty troll, who did like  18 of them. Sure, it was unwinnable match, sure you just " making a hopeless game end fatser" , it all makes sense for you, om some subjective, personal sense. But..yeah, muddy waters and bad sportsmanship. Maybe there were people in your team who would have liked to try and  win this unwinnable game. Or see if they can make it a 25-50 or something at least.

 - - - -

 

Further reasoning re: my totally patented Record&Report© method!

 

BW/Broadsword  has taken exploits, griefing and win trading in pvp seriously in past. At least seriously enough to open a specific email account just for pvp griefing and exploits in mind.  Nobody here knows how rarely they act on this stuff. It is reasonable to assume they prolly do act on it sometimes.  Brazen, exploiting win trader knows stuff he does is possibly actionable. He doesn't really know how often Broadsword acts on this stuff either. He doesn't like hearing you are recording and reporting him. Upon hearing you are busy putting them through the patented  Record&Report©  -method, it is reasonable to assume that.....

A)... Some of the exploiters, foolishly or otherwise,  believe they are fine. You see, they figure only nasty griefing get ppl in trouble. They are doing righteous, justified griefing instead  and therefore, are surely fine! 

B) ...Some of the exploiters rightly realize they might have every  reason to worry for their account. They don't want warnings or bans, so maybe they stop.

C).... Some of the exploiters  are bored with the game and are burning things down on their way out, they truly don't care either way.

 

It is group B that matters. Player who is reporting and recording an exploiter has no idea what his report does. Neither does the exploiter -  That's the beauty of it. Not knowing whether Broadsword acts on their griefing prolly makes some of them  stop griefing,once they realize they've frustrated enough people to earn them some reports. Once they realize they might end up having bad rep or angry yellow "hmmm...." text next to their names on some Broadsword rapsheets, they might stop griefing. Again, for this method to work it is vital to inform the griefer you are doing this. Don't flame them, don't argue with them, don't insult them, just let them know.Promise to report them and do as you promised them.

 

Do this to a brazen exploitger/win trader today  and there is a small change he stops today. Instead, focus on hoping Broadsword one day comes up with game mechanic based solution and well, I promise it achieves nothing relevant today, at least.

 

Recording your gameplay isn't difficult, anyone with Nvidia  card prolly has Geforce experience, it  has some very good recording methods behind a simple hotkey. Shadowplay is great too.Im not sure how futile it is to campaign for record and report! instead of just reporting them. I believe the,,,human element involved can matter a great deal. Seeing is believing. Watching the endless waterfall of X has self festructed messages, and seeing scoreboard in the end can..leave BW person looking into it with an impression.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Stradlin

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, Stradlin said:

Waters get pretty muddy real fast here. Like..take somebody who was not in that match. GL explaining them how YOUR 7 self destructs were somehow  constructive and righteous, and totally unlike those of a nasty troll, who did like  18 of them. Sure, it was unwinnable match, sure you just " making a hopeless game end fatser" , it all makes sense for you, om some subjective, personal sense. But..yeah, muddy waters and bad sportsmanship. Maybe there were people in your team who would have liked to try and  win this unwinnable game. Or see if they can make it a 25-50 or something at least.

 - - - -

 

Further reasoning re: my totally patented Record&Report© method!

 

BW/Broadsword  has taken exploits, griefing and win trading in pvp seriously in past. At least seriously enough to open a specific email account just for pvp griefing and exploits in mind.  Nobody here knows how rarely they act on this stuff. It is reasonable to assume they prolly do act on it sometimes.  Brazen, exploiting win trader knows stuff he does is possibly actionable. He doesn't really know how often Broadsword acts on this stuff either. He doesn't like hearing you are recording and reporting him. Upon hearing you are busy putting them through the patented  Record&Report©  -method, it is reasonable to assume that.....

A)... Some of the exploiters, foolishly or otherwise,  believe they are fine. You see, they figure only nasty griefing get ppl in trouble. They are doing righteous, justified griefing instead  and therefore, are surely fine! 

B) ...Some of the exploiters rightly realize they might have every  reason to worry for their account. They don't want warnings or bans, so maybe they stop.

C).... Some of the exploiters  are bored with the game and are burning things down on their way out, they truly don't care either way.

 

It is group B that matters. Player who is reporting and recording an exploiter has no idea what his report does. Neither does the exploiter -  That's the beauty of it. Not knowing whether Broadsword acts on their griefing prolly makes some of them  stop griefing,once they realize they've frustrated enough people to earn them some reports. Once they realize they might end up having bad rep or angry yellow "hmmm...." text next to their names on some Broadsword rapsheets, they might stop griefing. Again, for this method to work it is vital to inform the griefer you are doing this. Don't flame them, don't argue with them, don't insult them, just let them know.Promise to report them and do as you promised them.

 

Do this to a brazen exploitger/win trader today  and there is a small change he stops today. Instead, focus on hoping Broadsword one day comes up with game mechanic based solution and well, I promise it achieves nothing relevant today, at least.

 

Recording your gameplay isn't difficult, anyone with Nvidia  card prolly has Geforce experience, it  has some very good recording methods behind a simple hotkey. Shadowplay is great too.Im not sure how futile it is to campaign for record and report! instead of just reporting them. I believe the,,,human element involved can matter a great deal. Seeing is believing. Watching the endless waterfall of X has self festructed messages, and seeing scoreboard in the end can..leave BW person looking into it with an impression.

 

 

I've been in games where I enter, get 5 kills or so, die, then look up at the score and notice 5 to 20. I'm the only person on my team who has gotten any kills and everyone else had died 4 times as much.

I'm decent, better than average, but I'm not going to be able to compensate for a team that unbalanced. I'm also going to stop trying.

[Stradlin]

4 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I've been in games where I enter, get 5 kills or so, die, then look up at the score and notice 5 to 20. I'm the only person on my team who has gotten any kills and everyone else had died 4 times as much.

I'm decent, better than average, but I'm not going to be able to compensate for a team that unbalanced. I'm also going to stop trying.

Well, then you stop trying in a situation where match isn't even half  over  and difference in score is just 15. Not that  uncommon to see a game like that turn. Ofc, it prolly won't. To stop trying is different to ruining it from all else by mass suiciding as a protest.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Stradlin

[Darkestmonty]

3 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

Well, then you stop trying in a situation where match isn't even half  over  and difference in score is just 15. Not that  uncommon to see a game like that turn. Ofc, it prolly won't. To stop trying is different to ruining it from all else by mass suiciding as a protest.

if my team can't get a single kill without me and dies 20 times trying... the game is over. The max kills I have gotten in a single game is 23, never been able to break that. I'm not suddenly going to get 30-50 kills before my team dies another 30 times.

[Ramalina]

On 8/4/2023 at 4:30 AM, Darkestmonty said:

There are games where you know your team can not win. Since there is no bonus for doing well, why try? Dishonor means nothing in a video game that was created with grinding as the focus for content.

If we had a bonus for being the top players on our team, maybe people would try more. If we had a bonus for each kill, maybe people would try more. If dailies and weeklies were based on medals earned instead of win/loss, maybe people would try more.

SWTOR is a grind, since skill does not matter in a losing game, there is very little reason to put in effort.

Experience and requisition rewards tie directly to individual performance.   If you are still leveling GSF ship upgrades or character level there can be on the order of a 4x times difference in how profitable a game is if you keep fighting vs. just giving up.   Losing in those cases actually doesn't make that much of a difference in rewards, but not making an effort will absolutely tank them.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Ramalina

[Darkestmonty]

48 minutes ago, Ramalina said:

Experience and requisition rewards tie directly to individual performance.   If you are still leveling GSF ship upgrades or character level there can be on the order of a 4x times difference in how profitable a game is if you keep fighting vs. just giving up.   Losing in those cases actually doesn't make that much of a difference in rewards, but not making an effort will absolutely tank them.

for GSF if you do enough dailies and weeklies you will get so many fleet comms you can buy ship requisition from the vender and fully unlock every ship component.

In Warzones you gain the same reward for the daily and weekly whether you are the top performer on a losing team or AFKed the whole match. The only difference is people who play will earn more medals which doesn't matter except when doing a PvP/Galactic Season weekly, and even then you can still AFK your way to completion because of the way medals are awarded team wide.

If you want some people to participate we need to eliminate the win/loss mentality and start rewarding participation.

[DakhathKilrathi]

2 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

If you want some people to participate we need to eliminate the win/loss mentality and start rewarding participation.

Meaningful participation increases the chance that your team wins fyi.

[sharpenedstick]

There is no excusing the suiciding. They are griefing and should be punished.

However, from a systemic point of view, this kind of behavior should be expected so long as the match creation system continues to produce bad games at a high rate. Not only do premades need to be put into their own queue (inb4 "make your own premade" and "ZOMG FIX PREMADE NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADE!!!11!1!!!11!!), but also Biosword needs to improve the metrics the game uses to create teams. Far too many games are lopsided, and this is fixable.

Edited September 17, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[Darkestmonty]

On 9/16/2023 at 5:59 PM, DakhathKilrathi said:

Meaningful participation increases the chance that your team wins fyi.

Not in a lot of games. Sadly some people only join to pad their dps scores, not to play objectives and win, some have no clue what they are doing because they are new and some only join to afk their way through dailies and weeklies. Your participation may mean nothing with certain teams and no amount of participation will effect the outcome if your team doesn't play objectives.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Darkestmonty]

20 hours ago, sharpenedstick said:

There is no excusing the suiciding. They are griefing and should be punished.

However, from a systemic point of view, this kind of behavior should be expected so long as the match creation system continues to produce bad games at a high rate. Not only do premades need to be put into their own queue (inb4 "make your own premade" and "ZOMG FIX PREMADE NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADE!!!11!1!!!11!!), but also Biosword needs to improve the metrics the game uses to create teams. Far too many games are lopsided, and this is fixable.

I'm going to disagree here.

I've been in games where I look up and see 5 kills for my team and nearly 30 plus kills for the opponents team... and I got 4 of those kills. There is absolutely no chance of my team winning and dragging it out is pointless considering the dailies and weekly only care about a win or loss.

[Toraak]

On 9/17/2023 at 7:17 PM, Darkestmonty said:

I'm going to disagree here.

I've been in games where I look up and see 5 kills for my team and nearly 30 plus kills for the opponents team... and I got 4 of those kills. There is absolutely no chance of my team winning and dragging it out is pointless considering the dailies and weekly only care about a win or loss.

It's poor sportsmanshipy to SD even in those matches. SD'ers should be punished by Broadsword for ruining the games for those that actually want to try.

[Darkestmonty]

5 minutes ago, Toraak said:

It's poor sportsmanshipy to SD even in those matches. SD'ers should be punished by Broadsword for ruining the games for those that actually want to try.

weeklies don't care about sportsmanship or they would award points for medals earned instead of only counting win/loss

[Lord_Malganus]

5 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

weeklies don't care about sportsmanship or they would award points for medals earned instead of only counting win/loss

Exactly.

[Toraak]

6 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

weeklies don't care about sportsmanship or they would award points for medals earned instead of only counting win/loss

Then maybe that is what the weeklies need to be changed to. Earn 30-40 Medals in GSF.