Well, I already hate 7.3...

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

3 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

This sort of debates can go on indefinitely.  IN short we are not looking at an isolated incident but rather a HISTORY of nearly mind numbing brick wall after brick wall.

Yeah, I see what you mean.

3 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

As for the overall economic outlook (credits in SWTOR)...  IMO things are improving. 

Even before these latest changes made to address the in game economy prices were already going down.

I remember when Gold augs were going for 1.2 billion each and there was none being sold on the GTN. Now you can find them on the GTN, last time I checked (a few weeks ago) they were down to about 800 million. (depending on type).

I also can see that the RPMs and OEMs are getting noticably lower. They were selling at like 120 million about 2 and half months ago, give or take, now they're down to about 80-90 million.

Even deco prices have been getting lower.

So something was already effecting the enonomy and lowering prices. Quite honestly though, I don't have a clue what caused it.

3 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

YES some additional changes will and MUST take place to get the inflation cycle under control.  How much longer do we have before the other shoe drops with moving SWTOR forward (to whatever that may be) ???  I wish I could answer that.  I simply have no idea  (And aside from one or two inside of the team ... I doubt that anyone else does either)

There are so many different strategies I have seen peeps suggest on the forums on how to 'fix' the economy. Someone says it will work, and someone says it won't work.

I really don't have a clue about what would fix the in game economy and I'm not even going to pretend that I have an adequate understanding of economics to offer suggestions.

Bioware is trying something new now and whether or not that will work, I'm just gonna sit back and watch and see. Sounds like it may be able to do something, but whether it works or it doesn't work or works but only to a degree and more needs to be done, it's worth trying.

But if the forums are any indication, seems like an inordinate amount of players in this game just happen to be economists in real life.

I don't have a clue about this stuff, both IRL and in-game.

As my raid group use to say about me with regard to the game - I just hit stuff.

What say me and you have no idea together!

Edited June 15, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[OlBuzzard]

2 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Yeah, I see what you mean.

Even before these latest changes made to address the in game economy prices were already going down.

I remember when Gold augs were going for 1.2 billion each and there was none being sold on the GTN. Now you can find them on the GTN, last time I checked (a few weeks ago) they were down to about 800 million. (depending on type).

I also can see that the RPMs and OEMs are getting noticably lower. They were selling at like 120 million about 2 and half months ago, give or take, now they're down to about 80-90 million.

Even deco prices have been getting lower.

So something was already effecting the enonomy and lowering prices. Quite honestly though, I don't have a clue what caused it.

There are so many different strategies I have seen peeps suggest on the forums on how to 'fix' the economy. Someone says it will work, and someone says it won't work.

I really don't have a clue about what would fix the in game economy and I'm not even going to pretend that I have an adequate understanding of economics to offer suggestions.

Bioware is trying something new now and whether or not that will work, I'm just gonna sit back and watch and see. Sounds like it may be able to do something, but whether it works or it doesn't work or works but only to a degree and more needs to be done, it's worth trying.

But if the forums are any indication, seems like an inordinate amount of players in this game just happen to be economists in real life.

I don't have a clue about this stuff, both IRL and in-game.

As my raid group use to say about me with regard to the game - I just hit stuff.

Look at it like this ... You're honest in your evaluation.  A lot of folks just want to log in and play the game.  Nothing wrong with that.  The economy did get out of hand.  AND (quite frankly) economists IRL will sit and bicker over stuff all day long (until they push their plan/program through).  That means finding a solution that everyone would agree with 100% is unlikely.  That applies to me as much as anyone.  No I don't agree with every single step thus far.  BUT on the other hand nothing has been done so dramatically wrong that it warrants throwing a temper tantrum over.

I am a retired purchasing director.  Nothing more!  I know enough to understand cause and effect (and where to start looking).  As for the mechanics of the game and how the developers choose to address the various issues is entirely up to them.  As long as the main causation is addressed (IMO that's credit sellers) that is a major step in the right direction.   And now there are steps being taken to address other issues as well.

Just to be clear (for anyone else reading this particular response) ... No I don't think that the changes that are in place will be the last one.  Yes I do believe that more changes will come.  YES... if the team discovers that something is not working with part of the new changes... then stop and fix it.   

Change can be good!

 

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

6 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

Look at it like this ... You're honest in your evaluation.  A lot of folks just want to log in and play the game.  Nothing wrong with that.  The economy did get out of hand.  AND (quite frankly) economists IRL will sit and bicker over stuff all day long (until they push their plan/program through).  That means finding a solution that everyone would agree with 100% is unlikely.  That applies to me as much as anyone.  No I don't agree with every single step thus far.  BUT on the other hand nothing has been done so dramatically wrong that it warrants throwing a temper tantrum over.

I am a retired purchasing director.  Nothing more!  I know enough to understand cause and effect (and where to start looking).  As for the mechanics of the game and how the developers choose to address the various issues is entirely up to them.  As long as the main causation is addressed (IMO that's credit sellers) that is a major step in the right direction.   And now there are steps being taken to address other issues as well.

Just to be clear (for anyone else reading this particular response) ... No I don't think that the changes that are in place will be the last one.  Yes I do believe that more changes will come.  YES... if the team discovers that something is not working with part of the new changes... then stop and fix it.   

Change can be good!

You understand this stuff, have a background in a related field, so your ideas and notions are a lot more realistic than say someone like me. So I'm definately open to listening to what you have to say on it and effect my opinions on it.

I think your right and more will have to be done, this probably won't solve the whole problem.

Another thing that you said, which I think it probably one of most important things that people should take to heart is that it doesn't matter what they do, some people will be against the idea and some people will be for the idea.

You're never gonna please everyone, and you're never gonna get everyone to agree on 'whats best'.

Bioware's trying something. Time will tell how good or bad an idea it is.

[OlBuzzard]

1 minute ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

You understand this stuff, have a background in a related field, so your ideas and notions are a lot more realistic than say someone like me. So I'm definately open to listening to what you have to say on it and effect my opinions on it.

I think your right and more will have to be done, this probably won't solve the whole problem.

Another thing that you said, which I think it probably one of most important things that people should take to heart is that it doesn't matter what they do, some people will be against the idea and some people will be for the idea.

You're never gonna please everyone, and you're never gonna get everyone to agree on 'whats best'.

Bioware's trying something. Time will tell how good or bad an idea it is.

Pretty much right on as far as B/W and time analysis goes  (You're more correct than you think).  Even some of the things they have in place may need a few tweaks along the way.  They shouldn't take it harshly because of that.  Heck .. there's a few national level eco-eggheads that need to wake up a smell the coffee!  Sooo why not cut the team a break now that they ARE ACTUALLY doing something!

Good grief!! 

BTW .. I think sometimes people mistake my calmer demeanor when discussing stuff as some sort of sign of weakness...  Bad idea!

There are several things of late that have concerned me!  I have responded in kind.  I may not sound like much ... but this old man keeps his word!  (Yeah .. I know doesn't mean that much these days).

BTW...  chin up!  As long as people keep their heads and keep discussing things we can fix just about anything (if someone would just let us).

 

[DWho]

50 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

I also can see that the RPMs and OEMs are getting noticably lower. They were selling at like 120 million about 2 and half months ago, give or take, now they're down to about 80-90 million.

In my opinion, the biggest cause for this drop is that people are swimming in Tech Fragments now that we are a year plus into 7.0 and it's gearing system resulting in lots of people looking to cash in on their frags (OEM, RPM, and Legendary embers for example).

Some additional cause for the drops in Cartel Market items is likely that people are nearing then end of Galactic Seasons and hitting the levels where CCs are given out (CCs were back-loaded this season with most of them only becoming available at the higher levels). This both increases the supply of potential Cartel Market items and makes them less in demand because more people can use their GS CCs to buy them instead of having to pay boatloads of credits for them.

The third impact is likely that Bioware went after credit sellers and removed a bunch of creds/accounts/"mules" from the game that way. With the credit sellers supplies of creds disrupted, there are fewer opportunities for players to buy credits at low prices. Keeping the credit sellers from restocking should be a focus and the 30 day limit on accessing the guild bank will slow them down while they try to replace lost "mules" and rebuild Guild Banks storing their credits.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 hour ago, DWho said:

In my opinion, the biggest cause for this drop is that people are swimming in Tech Fragments now that we are a year plus into 7.0 and it's gearing system resulting in lots of people looking to cash in on their frags (OEM, RPM, and Legendary embers for example).

Some additional cause for the drops in Cartel Market items is likely that people are nearing then end of Galactic Seasons and hitting the levels where CCs are given out (CCs were back-loaded this season with most of them only becoming available at the higher levels). This both increases the supply of potential Cartel Market items and makes them less in demand because more people can use their GS CCs to buy them instead of having to pay boatloads of credits for them.

The third impact is likely that Bioware went after credit sellers and removed a bunch of creds/accounts/"mules" from the game that way. With the credit sellers supplies of creds disrupted, there are fewer opportunities for players to buy credits at low prices. Keeping the credit sellers from restocking should be a focus and the 30 day limit on accessing the guild bank will slow them down while they try to replace lost "mules" and rebuild Guild Banks storing their credits.

I think you probably nailed it. Everything you said really does make a great deal of sense.

Once you're all geared out and you have no more need for tech frags for character improvement, what else is there really to spend tech frags on? (I know there is a adaptive gear vendor that has stuff for tech frags, but its very expensive and they're just shells).  A lot of peeps probably figure, 'let me use those frags to make some creds'.

Galactic Seasons gives you about 1600 CCs, maybe 2000, I'm not sure, but around that, so yup, there's a bunch of free CCs to get some stuff with and spare you 100's of millions credits.

I've been seeing lots of credit sellers spamming on Fleet again (On Star Forge - Not sure about the other servers.), but there was a lull for a while, so you're probably right about that too.

They're never gonna try hard to get rid of credit sellers. There's too much money in it. For Bioware too. All those credit sellers need subscriber accounts to ply their trade, and a lot of them.

Doesn't really matter if Bioware bans some accounts, they're just gonna make new accounts anyways, and Bioware knows that. So what they did with the credit sellers was a token gesture I think, and that's why they're back and Bioware I'm sure knew that and was counting on that.

I don't expect Bioware to do much about credit sellers in the long run, and I really don't even blame them for that. It's a business and businesses exist to make money, and credit sellers make Bioware a lot of many in throw away subscriber accounts.

I think that's why you find credit/gold sellers on most MMOs. (Well, least most of the ones I've played. DDO, LOTRO, STO, EVE Online, etc.)

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

2 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

BTW .. I think sometimes people mistake my calmer demeanor when discussing stuff as some sort of sign of weakness...  Bad idea!

I am most certainly not one of them. You're a gentleman, and weak isn't a word I would associate with you. You call it like you see it and you stand your ground. It's why I always read your posts when I come across them and why I like interacting with you.  You're not gonna give me (or anyone else) some fluff response, your gonna give me your honest opinion.  Plus you see the bigger picture and don't only take what you like and what you think is important into account.

We may disagree sometimes, but it's never adversarial.

I've mentioned this before, whereas I sometimes can have 'knee jerk reactions' in the form of responses, you seem to be a voice of reason very often. Sometimes you get me to rethink a position. - Old Wise Man on the Mountain. 🧙‍♂️

Anyone who thinks your weak is an idiot.

2 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

There are several things of late that have concerned me!  I have responded in kind.  I may not sound like much ... but this old man keeps his word!  (Yeah .. I know doesn't mean that much these days).

A man's word is all he has in this world. It's what a man is made of. If he doesn't have his word, what the hell else does he got? If you ask me, it means a lot.

You're good peoples, Old man. (respectfully.)

Edited June 15, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[OlBuzzard]

Let me explain a couple of things (very briefly).  As it is quite apparent that some quickly forget (or more than likely) only want to hear what they want to hear.

** I have not changed my mind about the direction that this game is headed in.  My sub runs out at or about Aug 1.  If things continue as they are ... I'm done.  It's just that simple.
** I'm not giving anyone any slack.  I have ran out of patience with a continued standard operating procedure of empty and abandoned promises that yield even less in the long run.
** This is not something new that I have just started posting.
** My disappointment runs MUCH, MUCH, deeper than just a few billion credits.  Frankly I know enough about RL finance ...  saving money (credits or CC in this case) to more than just survive!  I did that for a living taking care of a mom-and-pop operation that was able to compete on a national level.  If anyone wants to make credits LEGITIMATELY ...  it's as easy as pie.
** If spelling this out is not satisfactory to ANYONE...  frankly ... get over yourself  (Yeah ..  I cleaned THAT up a lot too).

I'll make my own decisions my own way ...  and at the end of the day know that I've done it the best I can.  If that works for ya .. fine.  If not ...  (again) get over it!!

As for the development team .. they're big enough to speak for and take care of themselves.  BUT they apparently learned a few lessons along life's way that some have YET to begin to comprehend!  It is unlikely that anything else I have to offer in ANY from of communication would ever be found acceptable.

Deal with it!!!!!!!

[Ardrossan]

Well, I'm in complete agreement with all that^, and may I say that it's great that this player was able to clarify his earlier comments--which seemed to suggest a different interpretation-- and acknowledge that the problem is not players criticizing the devs, it is the devs themselves and the changes that affect quality of life in the game. I couldn't have said it better, thank you. 

5 hours ago, DWho said:

In my opinion, the biggest cause for this drop is that people are swimming in Tech Fragments now that we are a year plus into 7.0 and it's gearing system resulting in lots of people looking to cash in on their frags (OEM, RPM, and Legendary embers for example).

Players may also be hoarding the OEM/RPM/embers while they wait for bioware to put limits on the ability to get them. That's my plan, I stopped selling them as well as the fleet framework parts as soon as I saw the major dip in prices. I can't say I'm swimming in tech frags though, I've been trying to outfit my alts with at least one of every legendary implant and it adds up. I might just be bad at finding good places to farm tech frags lol.

[Balameb]

10 hours ago, Ardrossan said:

Players may also be hoarding the OEM/RPM/embers while they wait for bioware to put limits on the ability to get them. That's my plan, I stopped selling them as well as the fleet framework parts as soon as I saw the major dip in prices.

IMO, hoarding too much RPM/OEM as those may not be the best in the medium/long run. Reason be that they are tied to their utility and availability. If you have two OEM/RPM and don't plan to craft with them, better sell and purchase a cartel pack (value exchange rounded to Star Forge market).

In most scenarios i can think, were those mats could increase their value, then the cartel packs would increase proportionaly as well.

The only scenario were they could get a value increase beyond the increase of packs would be if they are kept being very useful while being more scarse. Usually is the other way around, OEM/RPMs were really hard to get at first, BW started adding sources, then making them even cheaper.

And scenarios were their value is sink even more are potentialy more plausible: More availability, less demand (we are seeing it right now) or New crafting meta, it would be better for this to happen sooner rather than later.

Then encriptions/frameworks are a better choice to keep, those are more static in their supply/demand and it would be rare for BW to change how that system work.

Of course, having a mix of valuables is always the best. Credits/Packs/Encs/Mats. Mats is optional, but i keep lots of them (except OEM/RPM) because i do craft, i perfectly know that if BW anounces grade 12 their value will sink.

[VonDooomm]

I unsubbed and quit playing for almost a year after Legacy of the Sith.  There was the buggy Ruins of Nul flashpoint.  There was a herd of force users on the planet and no one “sensed” the datacron.  Sahar picks up the datacron and happily skips away without anyone noticing.  REALLY??  We had waited a year for new content and this was all there was.

I played a little when Ruhnuk came out.  Shae Vizsla is useless.  You save her life and all she does is yell at you. 

I resubbed for the Galactic Season.  The rewards were meh. 

Now 7.3 only took one day to finish.  Voss is my least favorite planet.  The Voss as usual won’t tell you what they know and they act self-righteous as usual.  I liked the character interactions at the start of 7.3, but the rest was meh.  So 7.3 was a lot of busywork with very little plot.  If there is a payoff at the end of this story, it doesn’t look like we’ll see it any time soon. Did Bioware suck all the money out of this game before they had to hand it off?  I unsubbed again.

[TX_Angel]

On 6/13/2023 at 6:41 PM, Mubark said:

So that's a total of 91,200,000 tax....

8% is WAY TOO HIGH!

And that's only involving payouts. Not even doing anything on the GTN.

Wait until he finds out how much tax he pays on his REAL income in REAL life.