The Issue with Tacticals in this game.

[NOFORKNKNIFE]

Hello,

 

This is my first major post trying to help the Developers actually structure the game in a way that will actually promote unique gameplay and try to keep the classes feeling like they have an identity. I have actually quit the game since 7.0 launched as i feel the direction the game is taking no longer will cater for players that are interested in high-end gameplay.

 

My Issue with the game in the recent years has been with the very poor design of tacticals, I feel that they had little to no imagination behind them. It resulted in a lot of burst classes just getting a dot, Random abilities getting heals and other poor design choices that in my opinion made it feel like the developers didn't have a much of an idea about the classes in general.

 

I've tried to create a spreadsheet giving tactical ideas however they are made in mind to remove all of the current tacticals and replace with what I have. As they are not close to similar in terms of balance as each of mine are to create significant gameplay changes and to amplify specific areas of the Kit of the class trying to make specific choices fun and best in scenarios and terrible in others.

 

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/139-GJ4DbCPl9WAkhXizP7kvZACrRQQl7OhzKdwFiU10

 

I am looking for help with the Spreadsheet as my class knowledge can be limited for a few of my least played, If anyone is willing to throw about ideas my discord is : William#8623

 

If you want to debate about the balance or think a tactical is far too strong you can speak to me on my discord also : William#8623

 

Thank you.

Will (William#8623)

2x Top 3 Marauder / NiM raider / 6.0 World 3 vs 3 Tournament Winner

[Ardrossan]

It seems like you put a lot of work into it. I read a couple of the classes and they look interesting. I think probably balance would be an issue, overpowered tacticals. They would work better for a SP game.

 

It's extremely unlikely that they will change the tacticals at all since they have already had to do so once, much less that they will completely change them to this. The trend from the last change was that big impact tacticals were phased out in favor of ones with much smaller effects. but you never know.

[SteveTheCynic]

I am looking for help with the Spreadsheet as my class knowledge can be limited for a few of my least played, If anyone is willing to throw about ideas my discord is : William#8623

 

If you want to debate about the balance or think a tactical is far too strong you can speak to me on my discord also : William#8623

Probably best to keep the discussion out here where everyone can easily see it, including BioWare staffers.

[NOFORKNKNIFE]

I see about the debate, in fact I don't think the tacticals I have created will be the best in all scenarios, which is what I'd consider overpowered. But for help with the spreadsheet i thought I wouldn't mind help snowballing ideas as I'd like to fill the spreadsheet when I can.

 

I also think that the low impact tactical we have currently do more damage to class identity then any form of good. I tried to avoid tactical that grant specific dps increases so that it could be balanced around the tree instead of the tacticals. As with anything there are alot of tweaks to be made.

Edited July 23, 2022 by NOFORKNKNIFE

[AdjeYo]

I get what you're going for, and some more flavourful tacticals would be nice, but some of these are very, very overpowered. From the Juggernaut ones:

Sheer Pain: Just absolutely ridiculous due to the way how damage reduction is calculated additively in this game. If we assume a DR of 40% in current gear (which is lowballing it somewhat, but that would make the tactical less ridiculous) this tactical shoots you up to 80%. So you go from taking 60% of each hit to 20% a two thirds reduction in all damage taken! That is essentially having a 100% shield chance with 66.7% absorb rate. Would make Juggernaut instantly the best tank for any content by a mile and a half.

Even if we switch it from damage reduction to reduced damage taken, the benefits still very far outweigh the negative. To balance it you'd have to take it down to reducing all damage taken by 15%, possibly even less. Also it gives you no reason to use gear with shield or absorb, further incentivising the use of DPS gear on tanks.

 

Unstoppable Force: Just completely wild in PvP. A 3 second group stun, with a cd of 35s is already very, very strong (like carbonize with the increased duration utility and a lower cooldown). And the more you hit with it the lower the CD? Absolutely broken, pretty unsalvageable. Possibly balanced if you stun the first target hit for 2.5 seconds without the CD reduction, still very strong.

 

Side note a lot of "spec specific" tacticals don't actually apply to anything discipline related. If you want flavourful tacticals, tie them in to discipline specific abilities and talents.

Edited July 26, 2022 by AdjeYo

[NOFORKNKNIFE]

I get what you're going for, and some more flavourful tacticals would be nice, but some of these are very, very overpowered. From the Juggernaut ones:

Sheer Pain: Just absolutely ridiculous due to the way how damage reduction is calculated additively in this game. If we assume a DR of 40% in current gear (which is lowballing it somewhat, but that would make the tactical less ridiculous) this tactical shoots you up to 80%. So you go from taking 60% of each hit to 20% a two thirds reduction in all damage taken! That is essentially having a 100% shield chance with 66.7% absorb rate. Would make Juggernaut instantly the best tank for any content by a mile and a half.

Even if we switch it from damage reduction to reduced damage taken, the benefits still very far outweigh the negative. To balance it you'd have to take it down to reducing all damage taken by 15%, possibly even less. Also it gives you no reason to use gear with shield or absorb, further incentivising the use of DPS gear on tanks.

 

Unstoppable Force: Just completely wild in PvP. A 3 second group stun, with a cd of 35s is already very, very strong (like carbonize with the increased duration utility and a lower cooldown). And the more you hit with it the lower the CD? Absolutely broken, pretty unsalvageable. Possibly balanced if you stun the first target hit for 2.5 seconds without the CD reduction, still very strong.

 

Side note a lot of "spec specific" tacticals don't actually apply to anything discipline related. If you want flavourful tacticals, tie them in to discipline specific abilities and talents.

 

DR is not calculated additively, It's mixed in the game.

For example

 

Cloak of Pain is Additive

Old School Revitalizers From 6.0 was Multiplicative.

 

For immortal "Sheer Pain" Was specified as a Multiplicative DR gain as is the norm for tanks in this game. And DR currently for tank is around 50% if i remember correctly. Also I wanted it to be a reason to run a Generator over a Shield also. I lowered it to 30% Since thinking it was a little strong.

 

"Unstoppable Force" Is Very strong as i wanted it to be, You're giving up on taking extremely viable defensive tacticals and personal dps increase to provide that stun. I think the trade off should be fine. I however thought Maddash was a 45s CD for Juggs so i've changed that to a 25s Ratelimit.

 

 

Please note that these tacticals are all strong if you put them in the game as it stands. But one can not be put in alone. As i mentioned they're designed as a batch. Counters in other classes and such.

 

The reason i avoided buffing Discipline Specific things as a norm was due to the fact i wanted to add flavour in the base as it already has discipline effected passives and abilities.

 

Also there is Tacticals for all Classes (Tabs at the bottom), If you have time i'd like feedback on them.

Edited July 26, 2022 by NOFORKNKNIFE

[AdjeYo]

DR is not calculated additively, It's mixed in the game.

For example

 

Cloak of Pain is Additive

Old School Revitalizers From 6.0 was Multiplicative.

It's not, DR is always additive. Revitalizers didn't increase DR, they reduced damage taken, very, very different. It's the difference between Energy Shield and Overcharge saber (DR, therefore additive) versus Invincible (reduces damage taken, therefore mutliplicative).

 

For immortal "Sheer Pain" Was specified as a Multiplicative DR gain as is the norm for tanks in this game. And DR currently for tank is around 50% if i remember correctly. Also I wanted it to be a reason to run a Generator over a Shield also. I lowered it to 30% Since thinking it was a little strong.

 

Even if multiplicative (in which case the wording is incorrect), it's still incredibly broken. Anyone would take a 100% chance to shield 30% of all damage, especially if it includes unshieldable damage. Additionally making it very easy to slot dps gear without losing much survivability is the exact opposite of what the devs have been trying to do (making tanks not run dps gear).

 

"Unstoppable Force" Is Very strong as i wanted it to be, You're giving up on taking extremely viable defensive tacticals and personal dps increase to provide that stun. I think the trade off should be fine. I however thought Maddash was a 45s CD for Juggs so i've changed that to a 25s Ratelimit.

 

 

Please note that these tacticals are all strong if you put them in the game as it stands. But one can not be put in alone. As i mentioned they're designed as a batch. Counters in other classes and such.

 

The reason i avoided buffing Discipline Specific things as a norm was due to the fact i wanted to add flavour in the base as it already has discipline effected passives and abilities.

 

Also there is Tacticals for all Classes (Tabs at the bottom), If you have time i'd like feedback on them.

 

I skimmed a bunch of them, but since I mostly play Juggernaut that's where I focussed on. Looking at the options you've included for the other tanks, nothing comes even close to Sheer Pain in an operations context at least.

For instance on Sin I might consider Risky Ward (I'd have to play with it to see if the health loss is worth it), but honestly I'd rather keep my two cloaks.

PT right now doesn't really have a good tanking tactical, but even with these new ones I struggle to find a really good one for pve. Maybe Should Have Ran for the damage? Probably not as good as current dps increasing tacticals you can run. Beskar Armour seems interesting, but the 10% DR drop (taking ~20% more damage) is a major putoff. And the 40% damage loss might impact some of the tighter dps checks.

 

Overall the options are certainly very creative, but they tend to feel a bit too gimmicky/situational. Like the Sins "Shelter With Me" seems kinda fun, but you give up the core functionality of the ability (pulling enemies) to something which can sometimes be useful, and sometimes a very good way to kill your entire team. And PTs Hostage Taker could have some use if you're being tunneled in pvp, but if you're not you're just taking yourself out of the picture for 4 seconds as well everytime you want to pull someone.

Edited July 26, 2022 by AdjeYo

[KumbayaGOD]

Hello,

 

This is my first major post trying to help the Developers actually structure the game in a way that will actually promote unique gameplay and try to keep the classes feeling like they have an identity. I have actually quit the game since 7.0 launched as i feel the direction the game is taking no longer will cater for players that are interested in high-end gameplay.

 

My Issue with the game in the recent years has been with the very poor design of tacticals, I feel that they had little to no imagination behind them. It resulted in a lot of burst classes just getting a dot, Random abilities getting heals and other poor design choices that in my opinion made it feel like the developers didn't have a much of an idea about the classes in general.

 

I've tried to create a spreadsheet giving tactical ideas however they are made in mind to remove all of the current tacticals and replace with what I have. As they are not close to similar in terms of balance as each of mine are to create significant gameplay changes and to amplify specific areas of the Kit of the class trying to make specific choices fun and best in scenarios and terrible in others.

 

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/139-GJ4DbCPl9WAkhXizP7kvZACrRQQl7OhzKdwFiU10

 

I am looking for help with the Spreadsheet as my class knowledge can be limited for a few of my least played, If anyone is willing to throw about ideas my discord is : William#8623

 

If you want to debate about the balance or think a tactical is far too strong you can speak to me on my discord also : William#8623

 

Thank you.

Will (William#8623)

2x Top 3 Marauder / NiM raider / 6.0 World 3 vs 3 Tournament Winner

 

you have alot time in your hands putting this , go out work out a little but yes good work

[NOFORKNKNIFE]

you have alot time in your hands putting this , go out work out a little but yes good work

 

Thanks for the concern. I work out 5 times a week and have a full time job this was just a hobby of mine since i have some free time.

[NOFORKNKNIFE]

It's not, DR is always additive. Revitalizers didn't increase DR, they reduced damage taken, very, very different. It's the difference between Energy Shield and Overcharge saber (DR, therefore additive) versus Invincible (reduces damage taken, therefore mutliplicative).

 

Even if multiplicative (in which case the wording is incorrect), it's still incredibly broken. Anyone would take a 100% chance to shield 30% of all damage, especially if it includes unshieldable damage. Additionally making it very easy to slot dps gear without losing much survivability is the exact opposite of what the devs have been trying to do (making tanks not run dps gear).

 

 

I skimmed a bunch of them, but since I mostly play Juggernaut that's where I focussed on. Looking at the options you've included for the other tanks, nothing comes even close to Sheer Pain in an operations context at least.

For instance on Sin I might consider Risky Ward (I'd have to play with it to see if the health loss is worth it), but honestly I'd rather keep my two cloaks.

PT right now doesn't really have a good tanking tactical, but even with these new ones I struggle to find a really good one for pve. Maybe Should Have Ran for the damage? Probably not as good as current dps increasing tacticals you can run. Beskar Armour seems interesting, but the 10% DR drop (taking ~20% more damage) is a major putoff. And the 40% damage loss might impact some of the tighter dps checks.

 

Overall the options are certainly very creative, but they tend to feel a bit too gimmicky/situational. Like the Sins "Shelter With Me" seems kinda fun, but you give up the core functionality of the ability (pulling enemies) to something which can sometimes be useful, and sometimes a very good way to kill your entire team. And PTs Hostage Taker could have some use if you're being tunneled in pvp, but if you're not you're just taking yourself out of the picture for 4 seconds as well everytime you want to pull someone.

 

Probably just an issue with wording, However the 20% reduced damage taken wording was used in both revitializers and CoP and both were 20%, one additive and one multi. I guess i should have wrote Damage taken. So maybe i should specify reduced damage taken instead of Damage reduction then specify whether it's multi or additive. As long as I get through what message i want to. I also tweaked that tactical again so please read it again

 

I'm working on filling the tanks, I have defensive tacticals to work in for both Tank Sin and Tank PT but i struggle to work them into the kit. Also i removed two cloaks so it wouldn't exist as i think it's very boring.

 

I purposefully made them gimmicky and Situational as i want there to be a reason to change for boss fights or certain matchups in pvp.

 

Thank you for continuing to get back to me. if you have ideas about the tanks or any of the spare slots let me know

Thanks,

Will

Edited July 27, 2022 by NOFORKNKNIFE

[septru]

Thank you.

Will (William#8623)

2x Top 3 Marauder / NiM raider / 6.0 World 3 vs 3 Tournament Winner

 

Nice sig will

Edited July 27, 2022 by septru

[NOFORKNKNIFE]

Nice sig will

 

Needed to put it somewhere ;P.