How do the changes look in terms of pvp?

[velvet_illusionZ]

you are 100% correct! please keep posting whats wrong to make the defs listen to us and make changes to even the playing field. pvp and esp. ranked is in a horrable state right now-(same 4-5 specs every game is all you see) and will be even worse if they continue with their misguided "balancing" in 7.0

[ecstazypop]

From all the updates on the pts with the information we have right now, I would break it down like this

 

 

TOP 5 DPS

Madness

Marksman (They really didn't get touched while every class got weaker)

PT AP

Concealment

Lighting

Hmm.

As a madness main, I'll hunt down and kill like a dog every meme madness sorc ❤️

[DougTheNoob]

The Operative change would be a solid idea, but honestly I think the biggest problem with them is having top tier burst, top tier control, and top tier utility (reflect, healing, immunity). The easiest fix for Operatives would be to make them choose either burst or control, but not both at the same time.

 

Ex: If they go top tier burst path they can't have double hard stun on a 30 second cooldown.

 

Similarly, the easiest fix for Immortal Juggs would have been to cut 1/3rd to 1/2 of their damage output. Increase the threat generation on their attacks so they can still function in PvE. Even with Grit Teeth their survivability wasn't really a problem. Their survivability, control, AND high burst potential is the problem. With the Grit teeth changes Juggs with no skill are still going to play Immortal because they're sick of dying. They just won't guard anyone anymore.

 

Bioware could lower the damage of tanks even further, but reward people for playing them by introducing new tank related mechanics. Something off the top of my head: When a tank attacks an enemy it has a similar effect to "taunting" an enemy. Reduces the damage that person does to anyone else but the tank up to 'x' percentage. Or, puts a small shield on their allies for each attack the tank lands on an enemy up to some arbitrary stacking number.

 

Reward players for playing a tank by allowing them to influence / control the battlefield through cc and damage mitigation. Tie mitigation increases to their attacks to keep them engaged in the game. The better you play "multitask" the more influential a tank you are. They don't need to hit like Rage Juggs in the process.

 

As for Mandalorian Fervor that's a pretty good idea for an ability that fits with the class thematically. I would even go so far as to say that's what I would expect from a level 80 ability. However, it's a skill that would work in the live version of the game and not the PTS version of the game. For the PTS version of SWTOR you'd have to ditch the health buff, and the damage boost % would end up being so low you most likely wouldn't notice it before you died anyway. Ranged DPS is already difficult to deal with and over represented in PvP. Increasing ranged burst makes melee a chore. Increasing it even further makes melee unplayable.

 

Juggs and Marauders got destroyed in 7.0 without a meaningful damage boost in sight. The last thing Mercs need is an increase in damage while already maintaining a solid survivability and mobility advantage.

 

Remember, the devs aren't heavy handed when they make adjustments to non force using classes. They'd end up giving mercs access to Mandalorian Fervor and make them lose some passive utility that no one ever used anyway in exchange.

 

If melee had more damage mitigation tools or higher baseline DR i'd say the skill would be a great addition, but i'm pretty sure that's the opposite of what Bioware wants 7.0 to do to the game.

I agree with everything in this post. But lets keep in mind the suggestion of mercs getting more dps is related to them losing a dcd. If they dont lose any dcd,theres no need to improve their dps,as its a balanced class as it is. But ppl need to stop complaining about mercs dcds and start to learn how to counter em which is pretty damn easy. Mercs do way less dmg than snipers and sorcs, so they need their dcds in order to be playable,cos thats what makes em a good class.

[ralphieceaser]

If they dont lose any dcd,theres no need to improve their dps,as its a balanced class as it is. But ppl need to stop complaining about mercs dcds and start to learn how to counter em which is pretty damn easy. Mercs do way less dmg than snipers and sorcs, so they need their dcds in order to be playable,cos thats what makes em a good class.

 

Why are you pretending mercs barely do any damage, swtor is a pretty high lethality game, they have enough burst and damage to kill someone in those huge windows of godmode.

And they still have 3 healthbars with those godmode dcds unlike many other classes because even if you counter them, they still get to a lot more damage to you while you tickle with aoe or they just heal themselves back to full if you try to run and reset, and by the time you might be winning again and they carefully rotate through their other dcds their first dcd is up again so dont pretend as if mercs are fine while everyone knows it

 

Merc players man, they truly believe they are balanced when other classes have nowhere near that much more damage to balance with their lack of godlike merc dcds xD

[DougTheNoob]

Why are you pretending mercs barely do any damage, swtor is a pretty high lethality game, they have enough burst and damage to kill someone in those huge windows of godmode.

And they still have 3 healthbars with those godmode dcds unlike many other classes because even if you counter them, they still get to a lot more damage to you while you tickle with aoe or they just heal themselves back to full if you try to run and reset, and by the time you might be winning again and they carefully rotate through their other dcds their first dcd is up again so dont pretend as if mercs are fine while everyone knows it

 

Merc players man, they truly believe they are balanced when other classes have nowhere near that much more damage to balance with their lack of godlike merc dcds xD

 

Never said they have bad dmg.They just arent that bursty as some other classes,and thats why they need the dcds. Its a playstyle.Every game I played till today has classes that relies on its survivability,as mercs in swtor.But tell me a class with less dmg than mercs. I mean,I can name a few specs with less dmg such as madness. But mercs are far from being a top tier dps.

 

Again,if u think they have 3 health bars,u just dont know how to play pvp(which is the case of most of ppl complainin about mercs). Both reflect and the shield only works against direct dmg,so as long as u dont brainlessly hit em with ur bursts, they wont heal a single bit. U can easily kill a merc with the combo stun+dot+aoe,and sabe ur burst moves for when the shield runs out. Its not hard. I do that alot with my sniper,sin,jugg or any other class I play,even with my merc. The only dcd that heals mercs no matter what happens is kolto overload,which has a big cd,and is a good one but far from god mode as u stated. You want mercs to lose dcds,which is the department they are good at,but keep em as a second tier dps? How is it balancing a class?Sounds more like u want to gutter a class u dont know how to play against. The only class/spec that has EVERYTHING top tier is concealment operative,imo.And so they are the only ones that deserves a true nerf.

 

And again,I really dont mind losing a dcd on my merc. Most of the times I dont even use more than 1 or 2 in a fight against a weaker enemy. But if they take one of merc's dcds,they'll have to give it more dps or utility to compensate.

Edited November 15, 2021 by DougTheNoob

[Dyne-]

I agree with everything in this post. But lets keep in mind the suggestion of mercs getting more dps is related to them losing a dcd. If they dont lose any dcd,theres no need to improve their dps,as its a balanced class as it is. But ppl need to stop complaining about mercs dcds and start to learn how to counter em which is pretty damn easy. Mercs do way less dmg than snipers and sorcs, so they need their dcds in order to be playable,cos thats what makes em a good class.

 

Very true yes. I understand his rationale for the suggestion. I simply wanted to emphasize that Bioware needs to be extremely careful with damage buffs given the fact that most classes are losing survivability; especially with ranged DPS. It doesn't take more than an extra 10-20% damage from rDPS to make the game unplayable for mDPS.

 

I also wanted to point out that the idea of "we lost 'x' defensive, so we must gain 'x' amount of damage" was not applied to Juggernauts and Marauders. I agree that if a spec is pruned they should get something in return, but there were zero **ucks given by the dev team when Juggernauts and Marauders were destroyed without any compensation.

 

I also agree that DPS Merc is almost as well balanced as DPS Juggernaut on the live version of SWTOR. Mercs parse within a few hundred damage of DPS Jugg, making their damage mid tier. They maintain an edge in survivability due to the duration of hydraulic overrides, and the effectiveness of responsive safeguards. The fact that it blocks melee, ranged, force, tech, AND lasts 6 seconds is a bit much. It would be balanced if it reduced incoming damage by a fixed percentage (ex: 80%) as opposed to outright negation of ALL single target damage types. Regardless it works on live because Merc DPS can be interrupted, and classes are largely equipped to deal with Mercs.

 

I think the majority of people (myself included) who were discussing the state of Mercs on the PTS were taken aback by the fact that they are allowed to spec into all of their DCDs while retaining double rocket out, knockbacks, a stun, and electronet.

 

That's a pretty massive imbalance of power in PvP given the extent of the pruning other classes endured. Hopefully this imbalance is corrected by bringing the other classes up to Merc level.

[velvet_illusionZ]

Never said they have bad dmg.They just arent that bursty as some other classes,and thats why they need the dcds. Its a playstyle.Every game I played till today has classes that relies on its survivability,as mercs in swtor.But tell me a class with less dmg than mercs. I mean,I can name a few specs with less dmg such as madness. But mercs are far from being a top tier dps.

 

Again,if u think they have 3 health bars,u just dont know how to play pvp(which is the case of most of ppl complainin about mercs). Both reflect and the shield only works against direct dmg,so as long as u dont brainlessly hit em with ur bursts, they wont heal a single bit. U can easily kill a merc with the combo stun+dot+aoe,and sabe ur burst moves for when the shield runs out. Its not hard. I do that alot with my sniper,sin,jugg or any other class I play,even with my merc. The only dcd that heals mercs no matter what happens is kolto overload,which has a big cd,and is a good one but far from god mode as u stated. You want mercs to lose dcds,which is the department they are good at,but keep em as a second tier dps? How is it balancing a class?Sounds more like u want to gutter a class u dont know how to play against. The only class/spec that has EVERYTHING top tier is concealment operative,imo.And so they are the only ones that deserves a true nerf.

 

And again,I really dont mind losing a dcd on my merc. Most of the times I dont even use more than 1 or 2 in a fight against a weaker enemy. But if they take one of merc's dcds,they'll have to give it more dps or utility to compensate.

 

mercs got too much survivabilty no matter what! on top of their dcds-they are ranged (a perma dcd on its own as most classes need to be in 4 m range to do anything against them), got an escape with 2 charges, a pushback, perma slows build in their rota, e-net, self heals on top of their dcds, heavy armor etc ppp...we don't need to talk about merc getting their damage buffed, we need to talk about mercs getting brought down to earth even more than they did...on top of everything listet above, mercs loose less than any other class in 7.0...most overbuffed class in the game still, except conc ops of course....

[velvet_illusionZ]

Very true yes. I understand his rationale for the suggestion. I simply wanted to emphasize that Bioware needs to be extremely careful with damage buffs given the fact that most classes are losing survivability; especially with ranged DPS. It doesn't take more than an extra 10-20% damage from rDPS to make the game unplayable for mDPS.

 

I also wanted to point out that the idea of "we lost 'x' defensive, so we must gain 'x' amount of damage" was not applied to Juggernauts and Marauders. I agree that if a spec is pruned they should get something in return, but there were zero **ucks given by the dev team when Juggernauts and Marauders were destroyed without any compensation.

 

I also agree that DPS Merc is almost as well balanced as DPS Juggernaut on the live version of SWTOR. Mercs parse within a few hundred damage of DPS Jugg, making their damage mid tier. They maintain an edge in survivability due to the duration of hydraulic overrides, and the effectiveness of responsive safeguards. The fact that it blocks melee, ranged, force, tech, AND lasts 6 seconds is a bit much. It would be balanced if it reduced incoming damage by a fixed percentage (ex: 80%) as opposed to outright negation of ALL single target damage types. Regardless it works on live because Merc DPS can be interrupted, and classes are largely equipped to deal with Mercs.

 

I think the majority of people (myself included) who were discussing the state of Mercs on the PTS were taken aback by the fact that they are allowed to spec into all of their DCDs while retaining double rocket out, knockbacks, a stun, and electronet.

 

That's a pretty massive imbalance of power in PvP given the extent of the pruning other classes endured. Hopefully this imbalance is corrected by bringing the other classes up to Merc level.

 

again 100% correct!

[Floplag]

Why are you pretending mercs barely do any damage, swtor is a pretty high lethality game, they have enough burst and damage to kill someone in those huge windows of godmode.

And they still have 3 healthbars with those godmode dcds unlike many other classes because even if you counter them, they still get to a lot more damage to you while you tickle with aoe or they just heal themselves back to full if you try to run and reset, and by the time you might be winning again and they carefully rotate through their other dcds their first dcd is up again so dont pretend as if mercs are fine while everyone knows it

 

Merc players man, they truly believe they are balanced when other classes have nowhere near that much more damage to balance with their lack of godlike merc dcds xD

 

Literally no one has ever said that.

But weve already seen what happens when you take away our DCDs, remember a few seasons back when we were literally free kills?

There are a number of clases with much higher issues than worrying about killing Mercs, yet this obsession remains generally from those who cant be bothered to learn how to counter play it.

[NogueiraA]

As for mercs, they are in a rough spot. Their damage is lacking comparatively to other ranged classes, but I don't think it would be justice to say "strip a dcd and give damage". Maybe something like a new passive that can be chosen at level 80. Something like boosting kolto (proposed) "Maldolorian Fervor" , Channel the Spirit of Mandalore upon dropping below 30% max health, purging all negative effects granting x% increased health and damage for 'x'seconds. All bonuses lost upon expiry.

 

Idk what do you guys think?

 

Mercs have very good damage but they are strictly single target, that's why you don't see mercs doing top damage.

To fix mercenaries is pretty simple.

1 - Remove the healing from Relfect and the blue shield. Literally no other class has that, it's too much, 3 HP bars is too much.

2 - Make Mercs choose between Reflect or blue shield.

Keep hydraulic overrides baseline.

Add a 5 minutes protection against Electro Net.

[Floplag]

Mercs have very good damage but they are strictly single target, that's why you don't see mercs doing top damage.

To fix mercenaries is pretty simple.

1 - Remove the healing from Relfect and the blue shield. Literally no other class has that, it's too much, 3 HP bars is too much.

2 - Make Mercs choose between Reflect or blue shield.

Keep hydraulic overrides baseline.

Add a 5 minutes protection against Electro Net.

 

so by "fix" you mean put us back to free kills and make us play how you want us to... got it, a totally fair and balanced approach, lol

[ralphieceaser]

Again,if u think they have 3 health bars,u just dont know how to play pvp(which is the case of most of ppl complainin about mercs). Both reflect and the shield only works against direct dmg,so as long as u dont brainlessly hit em with ur bursts, they wont heal a single bit.

It is like you refuse to read what other people type and keep talking about this as if it is some rare knowledge that few know and supports your argument, reread my original post if you think I didnt know that.

 

And i ll repeat myself, godmode dcds that dont allow people to damage you other than with some weak dots and aoes(Few classes have strong aoes/dots that do decent damage to even consider them a danger to the merc) means they are godmode dcds because at that time the merc is free to just burst their opponents down that cant do anything to attack them so you have 3 choices

1-Stun them, enjoying wasting all your stuns on a single defensive, giving them full cc immunity while they have 2 more dcds and you probably needed your stuns for a more vital moment.

2-Aoe/Dot them, Great you can do 20% damage while they can do full damage on you or heal themselves with self heals

3-Run away/Los them or change target, enjoy seeing them heal to full with their own self heals while you cant unless your class has its own selfheals, oh and btw the merc still have 2 remaining bars to go with their next 2 dcds that if rotated carefully, they are just gonna have the first one be ready again by the time the 3rd health bar is removed

 

And no, this was never about 1v1s, you keep talking as if everyone is gonna just keep attacking the merc, the truth is that some attacks will hit the shield when activated before everyone responds meaning they still get heals out of it even in good teams unless you predict the literal moment they press the shield, and if you are going to argue that the merc dcds are balanced if everyone could just predict when used in a pvp environment and stop attacking early I will laugh, plus the fact that it doesnt change much cuz the 3 problems above still exist.

 

Nobody has issues with bad mercs, the only issue is with mercs who know their class and how to carefully and timely rotate their dcds with good useage of their own utility, escapes and heals to cause enough delay for the original ones to be up by the time you went through their 3 dcds.

 

Mercs have decent damage, godlike dcds, self heals, net and decent escapes. Now maybe if they had trash damage I would understand but that would mean they are more closer to tanks than dps, the class is clearly a dps class with godmode dcds. I would suggest the removal of self heals but the issues would still be there the moment a healer is involved instead of 4 dps v 4dps.

What someone suggested is best, either remove the healing component from shields or make mercs choose between reflect and blue shield, bringing them down to 2 dcds instead of 3 might be enough, and no they dont need more damage, they need nerfs because they are overpowered

[ralphieceaser]

Mercs parse within a few hundred damage of DPS Jugg, making their damage mid tier..

 

Just a note here but how a class parses is not really relevant in terms of pvp, parsing on a dummy means little because it implies an environment where a class gets to freecast, that is not the case in pve and it is absolutely not the case in pvp.

 

In pvp it is a lot more about taking advantage of strong burst and heartseeker missiles have always been quite a bursty ability, in pvp it is also about how susceptible your burst windows are to interference like stuns, interrupts, having to run due to taking too much damage etc and even here mercs have an advantage their their dps rotation is quite simple and easy without needing too much set up, plus the fact when they activate their dcds they often can get to freecast since nobody is gonna keep attacking them or waste their stuns and give them full resolve bar.

 

But in general, my point is you cant use pve parsing as relevant data in pvp since it is a very different game mode where having huge dps while freecasting can be quite irrelevant, especially if the high dps comes in form of sustained damage rather than burst windows.

[Dyne-]

Just a note here but how a class parses is not really relevant in terms of pvp, parsing on a dummy means little because it implies an environment where a class gets to freecast, that is not the case in pve and it is absolutely not the case in pvp.

 

In pvp it is a lot more about taking advantage of strong burst and heartseeker missiles have always been quite a bursty ability, in pvp it is also about how susceptible your burst windows are to interference like stuns, interrupts, having to run due to taking too much damage etc and even here mercs have an advantage their their dps rotation is quite simple and easy without needing too much set up, plus the fact when they activate their dcds they often can get to freecast since nobody is gonna keep attacking them or waste their stuns and give them full resolve bar.

 

But in general, my point is you cant use pve parsing as relevant data in pvp since it is a very different game mode where having huge dps while freecasting can be quite irrelevant, especially if the high dps comes in form of sustained damage rather than burst windows.

 

I appreciate the breakdown, but 99% of my playtime is spent in PvP in this game. I fully understand the intricacies that come along with it.

 

While I agree with your take that Merc DCDs are slightly overtuned, it's disingenuous of you to speak of the class as though they're gods in PvP. If we're going to have a discussion about class balance and what should happen it's essential that our scrutiny come from a place of honesty. That's why I mentioned Merc damage being solidly mid tier, because it is. A large part of Merc's DPS rotation can be interrupted, and if you're anything like me you'll interrupt tracer missile, blazing bolts, and whatever else can be.

 

You'll choke, push, Mad Dash, or Reflect other parts of a Mercs DPS rotation to absolutely obliterate them. If they E-Net you we have a few tools to catch up. It isn't difficult to do even if they know what they're doing. Not to mention we can LOS them.

 

With the frequency that I walk through Mercs, I can't in good conscience try and sell the idea that they're completely broken on the live version of SWTOR. Slightly overtuned, yes, which I mentioned in my post. Do we as melee players have to try harder than Mercs, Ops, and Snipers? Absolutely.

 

Anyone who PvPs understands that the environment isn't static, but how a class parses is indicative of their damage potential in a fight under ideal circumstances (which absolutely applies to a freecasting Merc) which is why I mentioned it. I thought this was obvious. A simple translation: On their best day a Merc couldn't hope to 100-0 you like a Sniper, Sorc, Operative, AP PT, etc. It just isn't in their kit to do so. Not to mention their rotation is telegraphed.

 

Mind you I fundamentally disagree with Bioware's balancing methods. They've adjusted the damage output of all classes without accounting for time on target and the inherent advantage of a class being ranged. That and essentially giving Mercs Divine Shield is one of many reasons why the class ended up being OP in 5.xx.

 

I explicitly stated in my post that you quoted what I think should happen to Responsive Safeguards in order to address the "god mode" nature of the DCD.

 

Potential 7.0 Issues with Merc:

Complete negation of all incoming single target damage still.

Multiple electronets back to back on the same target is still a thing.

Double rocket out baseline when movement is purged from the majority of classes in 7.0. (all classes should maintain their equivalent to rocket out baseline.)

Built in slows in their DPS rotation, from 30 meters away.

Multiple forms of CC and knockback baseline while others have had theirs purged.

The ability to spec all of their 6.xx DCDs while no other class in the game can in 7.0.

 

This is why I've been saying Bioware needs to bring other classes up to Merc, Operative, and Sniper level in 7.0. 3 of the 4 classes that needed significant adjustment basically skated through pruning.

 

While I understand your frustration with Mercs, they really aren't the worst offenders in the game. Ops and Snipers are most likely going to be the most OP come 7.0. I'll give Mercs 3rd place at the moment.

[DougTheNoob]

Mercs have very good damage but they are strictly single target, that's why you don't see mercs doing top damage.

To fix mercenaries is pretty simple.

1 - Remove the healing from Relfect and the blue shield. Literally no other class has that, it's too much, 3 HP bars is too much.

2 - Make Mercs choose between Reflect or blue shield.

Keep hydraulic overrides baseline.

Add a 5 minutes protection against Electro Net.

 

You basicaly want to destroy the class lol. The only thing I agree with is that net needs to trigger the cc bar, as it works like a cc. Thats what devs should be working on,but they wont, dunno why.

Mercs have second tier dmg,and lose to almost every other class/spec when it comes purely to dmg.

So basicaly u want us to have a shield that mitigates only 25% of dmg taken(energy shield) but no healing from it,or the reflect(responsive safeguard),but with no healing. And I assume u think we would be fine to stay as mid tier dps ,right? So u want us to have mid tier survivability AND mid tier dps? Great,next. lol

Edited November 16, 2021 by DougTheNoob

[DougTheNoob]

I appreciate the breakdown, but 99% of my playtime is spent in PvP in this game. I fully understand the intricacies that come along with it.

 

While I agree with your take that Merc DCDs are slightly overtuned, it's disingenuous of you to speak of the class as though they're gods in PvP. If we're going to have a discussion about class balance and what should happen it's essential that our scrutiny come from a place of honesty. That's why I mentioned Merc damage being solidly mid tier, because it is. A large part of Merc's DPS rotation can be interrupted, and if you're anything like me you'll interrupt tracer missile, blazing bolts, and whatever else can be.

 

You'll choke, push, Mad Dash, or Reflect other parts of a Mercs DPS rotation to absolutely obliterate them. If they E-Net you we have a few tools to catch up. It isn't difficult to do even if they know what they're doing. Not to mention we can LOS them.

 

With the frequency that I walk through Mercs, I can't in good conscience try and sell the idea that they're completely broken on the live version of SWTOR. Slightly overtuned, yes, which I mentioned in my post. Do we as melee players have to try harder than Mercs, Ops, and Snipers? Absolutely.

 

Anyone who PvPs understands that the environment isn't static, but how a class parses is indicative of their damage potential in a fight under ideal circumstances (which absolutely applies to a freecasting Merc) which is why I mentioned it. I thought this was obvious. A simple translation: On their best day a Merc couldn't hope to 100-0 you like a Sniper, Sorc, Operative, AP PT, etc. It just isn't in their kit to do so. Not to mention their rotation is telegraphed.

 

Mind you I fundamentally disagree with Bioware's balancing methods. They've adjusted the damage output of all classes without accounting for time on target and the inherent advantage of a class being ranged. That and essentially giving Mercs Divine Shield is one of many reasons why the class ended up being OP in 5.xx.

 

I explicitly stated in my post that you quoted what I think should happen to Responsive Safeguards in order to address the "god mode" nature of the DCD.

 

Potential 7.0 Issues with Merc:

Complete negation of all incoming single target damage still.

Multiple electronets back to back on the same target is still a thing.

Double rocket out baseline when movement is purged from the majority of classes in 7.0. (all classes should maintain their equivalent to rocket out baseline.)

Built in slows in their DPS rotation, from 30 meters away.

Multiple forms of CC and knockback baseline while others have had theirs purged.

The ability to spec all of their 6.xx DCDs while no other class in the game can in 7.0.

 

This is why I've been saying Bioware needs to bring other classes up to Merc, Operative, and Sniper level in 7.0. 3 of the 4 classes that needed significant adjustment basically skated through pruning.

 

While I understand your frustration with Mercs, they really aren't the worst offenders in the game. Ops and Snipers are most likely going to be the most OP come 7.0. I'll give Mercs 3rd place at the moment.

 

I agree about the net issue. It was always a problem,and they still wont do a thing about it. Net should trigger the cc immunity bar the same way as stuns does.

I also agree that classes shouldnt lose their mobility and ability get far from a fight(the way it is now on pts, is just way easier to get globaled). We losing hydraulic,which goin to make it a bit harder for us to use our rocket out anytime we want,as it cant be used while rooted. So thats a thing. And thats goin to make it easier for ppl to global mercs/aoe em while they use relfect or energy shield, as they wont be able to walk away if rooted,unless theu use the breaker, but that would be too risky. We also lost the passive dcd that gave us 30% less dmg taken from aoe, and while stunned. So thats goin to be the way to kill mercs faster next patch.It really got easier to kill mercs now. But ppl still want to nerf mercs even more... they just want an easy target with ok dmg cos they are too lazy to learn how to actualy counter play its dcds.

Edited November 16, 2021 by DougTheNoob

[TrixxieTriss]

I agree about the net issue. It was always a problem,and they still wont do a thing about it. Net should trigger the cc immunity bar the same way as stuns does.

I also agree that classes shouldnt lose their mobility and ability get far from a fight(the way it is now on pts, is just way easier to get globaled). We losing hydraulic,which goin to make it a bit harder for us to use our rocket out anytime we want,as it cant be used while rooted. So thats a thing. And thats goin to make it easier for ppl to global mercs/aoe em while they use relfect or energy shield, as they wont be able to walk away if rooted,unless theu use the breaker, but that would be too risky. We also lost the passive dcd that gave us 30% less dmg taken from aoe, and while stunned. So thats goin to be the way to kill mercs next patch. But ppl still want to nerf mercs even more... they just want an easy target with ok dmg cos they are too lazy to learn how to actualy counter play its dcds.

 

You are completely missing the point the other posters are making. No one in their right mind is say they want mercs to be an easy kill.

The point people are making is mercs have kept 99% or all their survivability in 7.0. While other classes, specifically Juggs and to a lesser extent maras, have lost a great deal and had no compensation to make up for it.

Mercs have had the least amount of changes to them compared to the other classes who weren’t even in the 6.x meta like Juggs, who have been nerfed into the ground.

All anyone wants is some bloody balance to these changes. If BioWare are going to destroy Juggs into the ground, then the other classes, especially mercs and operatives, who were already near top meta classes, shouldn’t have kept 99% of their DCDs and damage output.

Ideally, BioWare shouldn’t have pruned most of the classes like they did or not as harshly. Then Mercs would not look like they will be god like in 7.0. I personally never had an issue vs single mercs in pvp on my Jugg, Mara or Assassin. But 7.0 is going to be a sh** show.

Some of the suggestions in this thread to nerf mercs are too much. But there are some other really good idea that de-tune them enough to bring them more in line with changes to other classes.

Sadly, even if the good changes were made, Mercs, operatives, madness Sorcs and maybe snipers will be the DPS meta in 7.0. Closely followed by PTs & Lightning Sorcs. The poor Juggs, Maras and Assassins are going to be relegated to the scrap heap meta, ie, all the Force wielding melee classes will be crap.

Edited November 16, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[DougTheNoob]

You are completely missing the point the other posters are making. No one in their right mind is say they want mercs to be an easy kill.

The point people are making is mercs have kept 99% or all their survivability in 7.0. While other classes, specifically Juggs and to a lesser extent maras, have lost a great deal and had no compensation to make up for it.

Mercs have had the least amount of changes to them compared to the other classes who weren’t even in the 6.x meta like Juggs, who have been nerfed into the ground.

All anyone wants is some bloody balance to these changes. If BioWare are going to destroy Juggs into the ground, then the other classes, especially mercs and operatives, who were already near top meta classes, shouldn’t have kept 99% of their DCDs and damage output.

Ideally, BioWare shouldn’t have pruned most of the classes like they did or not as harshly. Then Mercs would not look like they will be god like in 7.0. I personally never had an issue vs single mercs in pvp on my Jugg, Mara or Assassin. But 7.0 is going to be a sh** show.

Some of the suggestions in this thread to nerf mercs are too much. But there are some other really good idea that de-tune them enough to bring them more in line with changes to other classes.

Sadly, even if the good changes were made, Mercs, operatives, madness Sorcs and maybe snipers will be the DPS meta in 7.0. Closely followed by PTs & Lightning Sorcs. The poor Juggs, Maras and Assassins are going to be relegated to the scrap heap meta, ie, all the Force wielding melee classes will be crap.

 

Well,I agree that juggs were destroyed.And some of changes need to be undone. But ppl should fight to make em realize that,and not to take mercs down,just bcos another class got screwed. But when u say merc kept 99% of their survivability is just not true. We lost mobility with hydraulic which is directly Linked to survivability,since now its going to be easier to global mercs and force em to use their dcds faster. "Ah,but mercs still have rocket out with 2 charges". Yes,but it cant be used while rooted,as I said. If u take that,and add the fact that we lost our only passive dcd that covered our greatest weak spot,which is the lack of defense against aoe and dot. It wont be hard to root mercs and hit em hard. The bad mercs,which are the majority of them,will die much easier than they do now. The good ones probably wont die that easily. But that happens with the good ones playing any class.

With that being said,I really dont like what they doing to some other classes either,like mara and juggs.Tho immortal juggs deserved a nerf,they nerfed em the dumbest way possible changing grit teeth. They should have kept it like it was,and change their dmg,since tanks shouldnt be able to do so much dmg as a skank jugg do now. Pretty sure theyll change it again,if ppl keep complaining,and they should.

And concealment operative is in a completely diff lvl. They get immunity every 6 sec if not rooted,and root em isnt that simple since they have so many tools to get rid of it. Mercs dont have immunity,apart from direct dmg with reflect,which can only be used every 2 mins. Comparing the 2 classes survivability,or even put em in the same group is not accurate.Operatives can only be hurted in a 6 sec window,but still get to heal emselves,while mercs only get healed if ppl keep hitting em brainlessly while their shields are up and still can be hurted by any dmg that isnt direct,and stunned.Plus concealment ops have top tier dmg,while mercs have mid tier.Mercs are far from being meta,tho its a good class.But I know u are just saying that ,in ur opinion, they were the ones that got the less amount of changes. Which is true. Them and snipers. But snipers and mercs were balanced classes imo,while operative deserved a small nerf in the concealment spec.The only issue was the merc's net not triggering any sort of immunity,which allows multiple nets in a single target. Thats what they need to change.

Edited November 16, 2021 by DougTheNoob

[TrixxieTriss]

Well,I agree that juggs were destroyed.And some of changes need to be undone. But ppl should fight to make em realize that,and not to take mercs down,just bcos another class got screwed. But when u say merc kept 99% of their survivability is just not true. We lost mobility with hydraulic which is directly Linked to survivability,since now its going to be easier to global mercs and force em to use their dcds faster. "Ah,but mercs still have rocket out with 2 charges". Yes,but it cant be used while rooted,as I said. If u take that,and add the fact that we lost our only passive dcd that covered our greatest weak spot,which is the lack of defense against aoe and dot. It wont be hard to root mercs and hit em hard. The bad mercs,which are the majority of them,will die much easier than they do now. The good ones probably wont die that easily. But that happens with the good ones playing any class.

With that being said,I really dont like what they doing to some other classes either,like mara and juggs.Tho immortal juggs deserved a nerf,they nerfed em the dumbest way possible changing grit teeth. They should have kept it like it was,and change their dmg,since tanks shouldnt be able to do so much dmg as a skank jugg do now. Pretty sure theyll change it again,if ppl keep complaining,and they should.

And concealment operative is in a completely diff lvl. They get immunity every 6 sec if not rooted,and root em isnt that simple since they have so many tools to get rid of it. Mercs dont have immunity,apart from direct dmg with reflect,which can only be used every 2 mins. Comparing the 2 classes survivability,or even put em in the same group is not accurate.Operatives can only be hurted in a 6 sec window,but still get to heal emselves,while mercs only get healed if ppl keep hitting em brainlessly while their shields are up and still can be hurted by any dmg that isnt direct,and stunned.Plus concealment ops have top tier dmg,while mercs have mid tier.Mercs are far from being meta,tho its a good class.But I know u are just saying that ,in ur opinion, they were the ones that got the less amount of changes. Which is true. Them and snipers. But snipers and mercs were balanced classes imo,while operative deserved a small nerf in the concealment spec.The only issue was the merc's net not triggering any sort of immunity,which allows multiple nets in a single target. Thats what they need to change.

 

So if I understand, what your trying to say is you think Mercs were nerfed too much already and were perfectly balanced before?

[CheesyEZ]

This is why I've been saying Bioware needs to bring other classes up to Merc, Operative, and Sniper.

 

no. just no.

 

ppl will piss and moan whenever you take something away, but the fact of the matter is that most classes have too many "toys." I'm not at all opposed to peeling away some of this stuff you list. but the movement abilities, immunities, and dcds have gotten out of control, imo. many of the tacticals left me scratching my head like..."why would you do that?"

 

ppl whine about stun so BW doles out immunity utility perks. ranged is having trouble getting separation from melee/interrupts, so they get teleports, rocket out, and reduced punt cds. melee then whine and get more cc immunity and reflects.

 

it's rare that BW just tunes something down like merc burst. more often, it's just stacking one dcd on top of another. stop doing that ****.

Edited November 16, 2021 by CheesyEZ

[DougTheNoob]

So if I understand, what your trying to say is you think Mercs were nerfed too much already and were perfectly balanced before?

 

Indeed they were one of the balanced classes imo. Top tier survivability ,but mid tier dmg,control and mobility. The only thing I've always said that needed a nerf was the net,which imo need to trigger immunity to stun bar. For the next patch,we got nerfed in mobility and control,so if we lose a dcd, its goin be an unplayable class.

I agree that some classes/specs were way too nerfed,such as dps juggs and all mara specs. I hope they change some things back and even consider to buff maras and rage juggs. But that dosent mean they need to destroy mercs too.

I also dont mind to lose a dcd on my merc,if I get more dps and the mobility back as it was. But u cant just ask for em to strip away a dcd on a class based on that playstyle, without giving anything in return.

Edited November 17, 2021 by DougTheNoob

[Dyne-]

no. just no.

 

ppl will piss and moan whenever you take something away, but the fact of the matter is that most classes have too many "toys." I'm not at all opposed to peeling away some of this stuff you list. but the movement abilities, immunities, and dcds have gotten out of control, imo. many of the tacticals left me scratching my head like..."why would you do that?"

 

ppl whine about stun so BW doles out immunity utility perks. ranged is having trouble getting separation from melee/interrupts, so they get teleports, rocket out, and reduced punt cds. melee then whine and get more cc immunity and reflects.

 

it's rare that BW just tunes something down like merc burst. more often, it's just stacking one dcd on top of another. stop doing that ****.

 

All due respect I don't think I know a single person that plays this game that thinks it would be cool if their character could do less.

 

At this stage in the game I don't see Bioware going back to prune classes in a manner that would be satisfying to you. Outside of Juggernaut / Marauder the devs seem to have gotten more conservative in their approach to class modification. I fully expect what's on the PTS to be incredibly close to if not the final product.

 

I'm not asking them to create new DCDs. I'm asking them to modify what's already there and balance the game in a manner that allows melee to have a place in it. My preference would be modify damage output, baseline DR, DCD defensive percentages, the ABC tree, etc.

 

Not really sure where you got the idea that I want them to add additional skills to the game.

.

..

...

 

Then again I do have room for another row and a half of hotkeys if they change their mind lol.

[velvet_illusionZ]

indeed- they became more moderate to the wrong classes as usual. they let the nerf hammer down on classes which needed buffs not nerfs and let the cheese classes (conc ops/mercs) get away nearly unscathered.

Regardless what they may be doing to other classes these cheese classes needed the treatment juggs got in the badest way....off course mercs keep defending their classes thinking they are balanced which is juast not true-they are broken as **** and will be even more broken in 7.0 considering the treatment other classes got.there is no valid second opinion on that...

[CheesyEZ]

All due respect I don't think I know a single person that plays this game that thinks it would be cool if their character could do less.

ppl will piss and moan whenever you take something away, but the fact of the matter is that most classes have too many "toys."

 

giving players what they say or think they want and giving them what they (or the game!) needs are rarely the same thing, especially in regards to balance.

 

every kid cries when mommy or daddy takes away their toys. it's human nature. we are inherently selfish. however, a bad parent gives his child more/better toys b/c the child whines and complains that her friend across the street has a better bicycle (?<insert toy>) than she does. even if the neighbor does have a better bike, buying the kid the best <whatever toy> on the street just pours fuel on the fire.

 

and I find the parent-child relationship to be an apt metaphor for the Developers of a game and its players. if only mom and dad had a better parenting approach than turning on Disney+ and sticking their children in front of the TV all day.

[Dyne-]

 

every kid cries when mommy or daddy takes away their toys. it's human nature. we are inherently selfish. however, a bad parent gives his child more/better toys b/c the child whines and complains that her friend across the street has a better bicycle (?<insert toy>) than she does. even if the neighbor does have a better bike, buying the kid the best <whatever toy> on the street just pours fuel on the fire.

 

and I find the parent-child relationship to be an apt metaphor for the Developers of a game and its players. if only mom and dad had a better parenting approach than turning on Disney+ and sticking their children in front of the TV all day.

 

This is one of the most asinine comments I've ever read.

 

This:

is not going to convince anyone that "the developers know best." Luckily for us they're cognizant of the fact that they're fully capable of making mistakes, hence the request for feedback and the subsequent discussion.

 

 

giving players what they say or think they want and giving them what they (or the game!) needs are rarely the same thing, especially in regards to balance.

 

 

This is about the only thing you typed in your post that has the potential to be relevant to the discussion at hand, and there's a lot that could be said on the matter considering the intertwined nature of wants vs needs. However, given your dismissive nature in the face of overwhelming opposition to your sentiment I'd venture to say it's a conversation you're ill equipped to have.

 

Personally, I'd love to hear your suggestion on what the game should lose or how far you believe the game should regress; if you're done playing psychotherapist on the forums that is.

 

If it isn't worth your time then hey, we can agree to disagree.