Combat Styles Discussion

[Soljin]

Yeah that's the thing. At some point a player needs to accept that this is as good as it gets. I mean, I do still try to give criticism in the hopes that at least a little of it gets picked up, but after that I also just accept it. However, with 5.0 they went too far for me and I stopped playing for a couple of years. So there's that. I came back a few months before 6.0 and it's been ok since but I am bored again with the game. So I spend more time on the forum than in game lol.

 

Still I'll wait for 7.0 to come out and see the new content. If it's quick and then it's back to the same old boring stuff, then I'll take an extended break again. It's just that the extended breaks get longer and longer.

 

The lack of care...well look at what they did with their own IP Mass Effect. Andromeda was a bad launch and after patching it up it was a fairly good game, but nowhere near as good as the preceding trilogy. So you'd think they would go all out to salvage it and make it better, but no...they just patched it up and dropped it like a bomb. No dlc's or anything. That's where I saw the lack of care already.

 

And the legendary edition of the original trilogy sold more copies than EA had expected. That tells me that they need to look at their older games and look at those for inspiration instead of the "market trends". I mean Diablo 2 is coming out soon with their remastered version. Not sure if those sales are going to be as great as expected because of the scandals at Blizzard that came out recently, but D2 is still regarded as the best of the series.

 

Game companies just need to stop trying to "innovate" beyond what made them successful in the first place. If you discovered the wheel why would you try to make a square one. It doesn't roll.

 

But EA should've done things differently when the game sunk soon after release. They should've said, ok, this didn't go well but it's SW so we're going to invest more into to make it work. Square Enix did that with FFXIV, but EA failed to do it with SWTOR. However, that doesn't make BW blameless in the matter. The resources that they did get to assign to it have been grossly misused. A lot of "innovative" thinking was just downright unnecessary and it backfired on them many times. You'd think they'd learn from those mistakes but BW has had the tendency to put on blinders and they love to spend way too much time in pre-production rather than actually building their games.

 

And then they have the arrogance coming with it based on their old successes that they then hate because players love them and they want more of it. But they wanted to do something different, something new, something better. Well, that was Anthem and it sunk like a mother.

 

That's what pisses me off more than anything. They had 3 studios. One in Edmonton, one in Austin and one in Montreal. They basically put that studio in Montreal together with new people and shoved off ME: Andromeda to them and left them to their own devices cause Edmonton was tired of doing ME so they could fully focus on Anthem.

 

Well Anthem became BW's biggest failure and embarrassment, but they still won't admit that. They really need to get in their heads that they are dependent on their customers. They need to make what customers love or they will forever lose their goodwill and they've used up a lot of that.

 

The next two games that will come out over the next few years will be telling for me. DA4 and the next ME game. I'm not convinced they'll do a good job at them and that's because they messed up majorly with the last few games and the Frostbite engine hasn't been good for their games either. The interface and menu structure is terrible in all of those games. DA:I was the first one I believe. It's a pretty good game but again the interface and menu structure is terrible in there. DA:O had a better one. And don't get me started on the Anthem one. Even in ME:Andromeda the crafting menu was horrible, like it was made by an intern with a bad attitude. Anyways you get my point.

 

TLDR; So yeah, to make it short BW has had a problem with taking care of their games, even their own IPs in recent years and I'm not so sure if that'll change in the future.

 

Can't say I disagree with any of this post...I do think innovation can often be good but i agree its definitely not always necessary and should never over write an already loved system.

 

I am of the opinion that negative feedback is necessary but as we have seen recently mass exodus/ loss of money is the only thing that really forces fast changes (Blizzard). I'm not planning on leaving SWToR because I already left a long time ago...I come back for a month or two when I want to play the original stories or PvP for a bit and then I'm out for the rest of the year...

 

Feedback in SWToR beta did nothing, early post launch feedback eventually resulted in some positive changes but only after the game lost massive players...

 

Current models of business seem to be based off of reaching larger disposable audiences and "whales" rather than trying to keep a loyal player base and so we have the current gaming climate... Until people stop "settling" we will continue to experience less than stellar games.

 

I am just a Star Wars fan that wants to play a really good Star Wars RPG... I would be perfectly happy if SWToR became that game, it just leaves a lot to be desired as it is.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Soljin

[OlBuzzard]

It does make sense

Cool !!

[/two thumbs up]

 

Now, I may have given you the impression that everything they did was bad, but that's not the case. However, there is the matter of how they implemented it still.

 

That's kind of where we agree (and sometimes disagree) .. with KotFE / ET for example.

I like the stories (some of it better than vanilla) .. but that does not by any means I liked what they did over all. There were SEVERAL issues that I absolutely hated when that was first released (and was glad to see the gearing system gone ... only to go from the pan to the fire !! )

 

So ... yeah you are right . Believe it or not we both agree. Just on a somewhat different application of that same justification. ( I hope that makes sense as well ... might be a bit confused. I'm not doing that well this morning verbalizing in a proper context.)

 

Mind you I do distinguish from the game at launch and what came after. Class stories and Interactive companions were there from the start. The starting point is the baseline, but what you do next is supposedly based on learnings and that is where it goes wrong a lot. And for class stories and interactive companions what came after was bad news. So what makes SWTOR unique, they abandoned.

Agreed ... the roots of SWTOR has been abandoned .. not added to. IMO the 10th anniversary was an opportunity to at least begin to move the game in a more positive direction. That too seems to have been rejected as a bad idea.

 

Now what they also did wrong with the continued story line is that they based it around one class: the Jedi Knight as of 4.0 and that was just a bad fit for other classes. Now 2.0 is not part of the main story but 3.0 still made sense to a much larger extent for all classes and I wish they would've at least kept going that way.

 

IMO .. I do wish there was at least a certain "flavor" to separate the classes just a bit. A Smuggler (even a light side version) would not always make choices the same way that a JK or Sith would ... and certainly not for the same line of reasoning.

 

Strongholds was a new addition and a successful one but how it was implemented leaves a lot to be desired and I gave up on it, because boredom has set in. That's saying a lot because I spent MANY hours in there when the rest of the game was boring me. But the inflexibility and trickle release of new decorations ESPECIALLY in game, just makes me do the same 3-4 themes in all of them. They really need to make some fundamental changes like making generic items in many colors and for the love of anything please let us get a SH that isn't orange inside. Coruscant, Nar Shaddaa, Alderaan , Rishi are orange at least on the inside. In fact I still hope for a Hoth one because it'll be white and then I can decide the color scheme. So yeah.

 

Agreed ...The same stuff (usually ruins of sorts) does not work that well in the new penthouses that were just released. There have been a few items released out there but most of those only on the CM. A few more appropriate drops in game would be better.

I'm hoping for that space station on the outer rim .. free of bugs with a unique view of space (this one takes an above average understanding of 3-D artistry to make it happen and IMO .. BW has the personnel to make it happen. The work done on Onderon proves it.)

 

Well, that is a matter of opinion. I really hated the gear system of 5.0 and also of 6.0 because of different reasons. Neither was an improvement for me in any way. It was just a matter of giving in to a demographic of people that were jealous of the raiders over gear that they didn't even need for the content they were doing.

 

Well .. that's just it. some of us aren't playing the game just to watch 5 minutes (or less) of cinematic cut scenes then collect 306 gear. I ran dozens upon dozens and when necessary dozens more of FP's / Heroics ...etc in order to get to where we are at. BUT for the FIRST TIME IN NEARLY 10 YEARS I have strong enough gear that I can run those areas and do so with a degree of successful expectation (provided I'm not blindly running said areas and make a genuine effort to actually PLAY !).

 

Well for me the current state of Hollywood is that they're leaning on successes of the past and do something different, mostly exaggeratedly woke. So for example there were already 2 versions of Charlie's Angels but a third came out because even the second one wasn't woke enough. There is great irony in this approach if you think about it. To use the name of something they consider wrong to garner success. But it doesn't work for them. Movie after movie fails. The second Ghost Busters movie was, well, a bust. But more to the point, they can't write an original story for **** anymore it seems. Why? Because it's all about risk management so they can maximize profit.

 

The entertainment industry as a whole suffers from this btw. Whether it's music, movies, games, whatever... it's all become institutionalized. The rules that need to be followed to be successful before you put whatever it is to the public are more important than the content. They took the content for granted and started creating more and more ****. Now, luckily we still get good stuff but only occasionally. And the fact that older games remastered are so successful is a testament to that. And the movies? Yep, there is a big market for remasters of old movies on DVD, Blu ray and 4K. Music? Vinyl is in again and albums get remastered as well.

Just saying that companies need to remember what their roots are and get back to that.

 

Aint it the truth !!!

 

edit: If we didn't disagree on at least SOMETHING ... I'd have to call 911 due to a heart attack !!

:D:D

Edited August 15, 2021 by OlBuzzard

[Darth-Obvious]

I am of the opinion that negative feedback is necessary but as we have seen recently mass exodus/ loss of money is the only thing that really forces fast changes (Blizzard).

 

The problem there is that SWTOR doesn't have Blizzard's numbers.

 

See the double edge sword of SWTOR's situation is that if it has some mass exodus or loss of money the game most likely dies. They don't have any reason to dump more money into something that's not doing well.

 

It's like when people complain about licensed anime games saying "If people stopped buying the constantly crappy games they make with the licenses then that would force them to make good games." when the reality of the situation is more like they'd stop making licensed anime games or you'd only see them on mobile or whatever.

 

Feedback in SWToR beta did nothing

 

- Ability to kill companions

- Ability to mod all weapons & armor

- The General title from the Jedi Knight storyline

 

All things that changed or were removed as a result of feedback during the beta.

 

Current models of business seem to be based off of reaching larger disposable audiences and "whales" rather than trying to keep a loyal player base and so we have the current gaming climate...

 

That's because the "forever game" that people dream or hope MMO's to be is and basically always has been a fantasy and unfortunately many developers weren't looking far enough ahead to the future or completely miscalculated things.

 

At the end of the day there are inherent problems with things like MMOs that have no solution such as the rotating door of a playerbase, content droughts, etc.

 

Until people stop "settling" we will continue to experience less than stellar games.

 

This is not true.

 

There's a better chance that you'll have less games not better ones.

 

I am just a Star Wars fan that wants to play a really good Star Wars RPG... I would be perfectly happy if SWToR became that game, it just leaves a lot to be desired as it is.

 

MMOs are not the place to find really good RPGs. They have to make too many concessions in order to be an MMO in order to do so.

 

SWTOR would never be able to achieve what a let's say Bethesda style RPG can/could achieve with the SW license because at the end of the day it's an MMO and not a single player RPG and as such has to have various MMO hooks or concessions to it that are going lessen or worsen the experience no matter what.

[Soljin]

The problem there is that SWTOR doesn't have Blizzard's numbers.

 

See the double edge sword of SWTOR's situation is that if it has some mass exodus or loss of money the game most likely dies. They don't have any reason to dump more money into something that's not doing well.

 

It's like when people complain about licensed anime games saying "If people stopped buying the constantly crappy games they make with the licenses then that would force them to make good games." when the reality of the situation is more like they'd stop making licensed anime games or you'd only see them on mobile or whatever.

 

 

 

 

That's because the "forever game" that people dream or hope MMO's to be is and basically always has been a fantasy and unfortunately many developers weren't looking far enough ahead to the future or completely miscalculated things.

 

At the end of the day there are inherent problems with things like MMOs that have no solution such as the rotating door of a playerbase, content droughts, etc.

 

 

 

This is not true.

 

There's a better chance that you'll have less games not better ones.

 

 

 

MMOs are not the place to find really good RPGs. They have to make too many concessions in order to be an MMO in order to do so.

 

SWTOR would never be able to achieve what a let's say Bethesda style RPG can/could achieve with the SW license because at the end of the day it's an MMO and not a single player RPG and as such has to have various MMO hooks or concessions to it that are going lessen or worsen the experience no matter what.

 

Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion man...

Edited August 15, 2021 by Soljin

[Darth-Obvious]

Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion man...

 

SWTOR doesn't have Blizzard's numbers is my opinion?

 

You also cut out the part about how feedback during the beta did nothing. You know, that thing you were just flat out wrong about and are trying to avoid having to acknowledge that fact

[Soljin]

SWTOR doesn't have Blizzard's numbers is my opinion?

 

You also cut out the part about how feedback during the beta did nothing. You know, that thing you were just flat out wrong about and are trying to avoid having to acknowledge that fact

 

I'm sure it's down there somewhere, let me take another look...

[Darth-Obvious]

I'm sure it's down there somewhere, let me take another look...

 

No, it's not, and you just continue to be wrong.

 

https://imgur.com/znepjBf

[Soljin]

No, it's not, and you just continue to be wrong.

 

https://imgur.com/znepjBf

 

 

This is a very complicated case, Man. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you's. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man.

[Darth-Obvious]

This is a very complicated case, Man. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you's. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man.

 

And I know you're just continuing to reply at this point to have the last or to make yourself feel better or both.

 

You think or believe that by jokifying it all you can deflect attention away from the negative aspects of yourself and play it all off like it's not that serious or doesn't matter or that you're somehow aloof in all of it despite spending so much time previously treating it seriously.

[Soljin]

And I know you're just continuing to reply at this point to have the last or to make yourself feel better or both.

 

You think or believe that by jokifying it all you can deflect attention away from the negative aspects of yourself and play it all off like it's not that serious or doesn't matter or that you're somehow aloof in all of it despite spending so much time previously treating it seriously.

 

Man! could you change the channel?... Come on, man. I had a rough night and I hate the Eagles, man!

[Ardrossan]

No, not at all. It was quite nice and easy to put an even bigger spotlight or focus on the ridiculous claims/statements you're making. All you're doing there is helping me out and not yourself.

 

Yeah, it's not a claim OR a statement actually, it's literally just a request: I want the devs to acknowledge, on the forum, that they aren't being given funding to spend on this game.

 

And it's a minor request because I really don't GAF either way. I just don't like armchair experts assuming that's the reason like they assume all kinds of motives for dev behavior that is based on nothing but supposition.

 

Have you stopped to think that all you do is get into pointless arguments with people on the forum, and that if you did refrain from being needlessly confrontational, you might notice that there's very little, in fact, to disagree about? No? How about that your obsessive need to "win" arguments is pathetically transparent?

 

Check yourself my dude.

[Darth-Obvious]

Yeah, it's not a claim OR a statement actually, it's literally just a request: I want the devs to acknowledge, on the forum, that they aren't being given funding to spend on this game.

 

And why to they "have" or "need" to do that on the forum(s) as opposed to a video or text interview?

 

It's also not something they're ever going to admit on the forums and you know that too which makes it all even more ridiculous.

 

And it's a minor request

 

It's not a minor request. Them doing what you're asking for would have major implications and cause all sorts of issues internally and on a PR level.

 

because I really don't GAF either way.

 

If that were true you wouldn't keep posting about it.

 

I just don't like armchair experts assuming that's the reason like they assume all kinds of motives for dev behavior that is based on nothing but supposition.

 

Right because there's no information out there to show or say otherwise right? It's not like there are former employees who have talked about the game and it's problems/issues or anything like that right? But none of that stuff counts right because it's not stated specifically on the forums.

 

Information gets out there in a variety of ways and it can and does get repeated by people but it doesn't mean those people are playing arm-chair developer all the time. You just want to ignore those people or claim they're playing arm-chair developer when they tell you or explain why you're not getting what you want but funny how when it's something that validates you or your views/assumptions you're completely fine with it. I wonder why that is?

 

Have you stopped to think that all you do is get into pointless arguments with people on the forum, and that if you did refrain from being needlessly confrontational, you might notice that there's very little, in fact, to disagree about? No? How about that your obsessive need to "win" arguments is pathetically transparent?

 

Check yourself my dude.

 

Maybe take a look in the mirror first hypocrite. What is it that you think you're doing by continuing to argue with me?

Edited August 15, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

[Darth-Obvious]

Man! could you change the channel?... Come on, man. I had a rough night and I hate the Eagles, man!

 

.....................

 

I think at this point our conversation has reached a point of stale and it keeps swerving off the road towards a conversation that I take no pleasure or insight from...so you win, enjoy.

 

[Ardrossan]

Maybe take a look in the mirror first hypocrite. What is it that you think you're doing by continuing to argue with me?

 

That's some incredible mental gymnastics that you can call other people hypocrites for continuing to respond to you. "I'm not the problem, everyone else is for talking to me!!":rak_03:

 

The debate club is strong in you...but not in a way that would actually be rational, you're just spitting out jargon like "claim" and "hypocrite" at random.

[Darth-Obvious]

That's some incredible mental gymnastics that you can call other people hypocrites for continuing to respond to you. "I'm not the problem, everyone else is for talking to me!!":rak_03:

 

No, you're being a hypocrite for a multitude of reasons not just because you're responding to me.

 

The debate club is strong in you...but not in a way that would actually be rational, you're just spitting out jargon like "claim" and "hypocrite" at random.

 

Not really.....

 

This forum repeats this assumption like it's a fact despite that no one from BW has ever confirmed it.

 

You don't know that for a fact yet you're stating like it is a fact but you complain about people stating assumption as fact even though that's something you've done yourself. THAT is something that makes you a hypocrite.

 

What mental gymnastics will you spout to explain how you're wrong and not a hypocrite I wonder?

Edited August 15, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

[Soljin]

And I know you're just continuing to reply at this point to have the last or to make yourself feel better or both.

 

You think or believe that by jokifying it all you can deflect attention away from the negative aspects of yourself and play it all off like it's not that serious or doesn't matter or that you're somehow aloof in all of it despite spending so much time previously treating it seriously.

 

..........................

[Darth-Obvious]

..........................

 

 

I think at this point our conversation has reached a point of stale and it keeps swerving off the road towards a conversation that I take no pleasure or insight from...so you win, enjoy.

 

[Soljin]

 

 

 

 

[Tsillah]

That's some incredible mental gymnastics that you can call other people hypocrites for continuing to respond to you. "I'm not the problem, everyone else is for talking to me!!":rak_03:

 

The debate club is strong in you...but not in a way that would actually be rational, you're just spitting out jargon like "claim" and "hypocrite" at random.

I think, cause that's how it sounds to me, that Sojin at some point called the discussion pointless with Darth-Obvious and then kept responding to them. That's a bit inconsistent.

 

Sojin should've been wiser and not responded to Darth-Obvious after Sojin's conclusion that their exchange wasn't productive anymore, cause it really isn't. And our comments probably aren't productive either but hey, it keeps the thread on the front page and just maybe that's what Sojin is after...but hey, that's just me making a wild assumption.

[Soljin]

I think, cause that's how it sounds to me, that Sojin at some point called the discussion pointless with Darth-Obvious and then kept responding to them. That's a bit inconsistent.

 

Sojin should've been wiser and not responded to Darth-Obvious after Sojin's conclusion that their exchange wasn't productive anymore, cause it really isn't. And our comments probably aren't productive either but hey, it keeps the thread on the front page and just maybe that's what Sojin is after...but hey, that's just me making a wild assumption.

 

To be clear I responded to one of your posts (post saying it was an unproductive trade) and not directly to Darth-Obvious. At that point the other poster refusing to let it drop picked apart my response to you...and that did prompt a response from me.

 

Was it unwise to respond at all...I suppose it was. That said I will not stop posting because someone has taken to railing every post I throw up. It's an unfortunate practice that often happens when the point of posts is to "win" rather than to trade ideas and develop view points and theories in a collaborative fashion.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Soljin

[Nihaelis]

 

The Dude abides.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Nihaelis

[Tsillah]

To be clear I responded to one of your posts (post saying it was an unproductive trade) and not directly to Darth-Obvious. At that point the other poster refusing to let it drop picked apart my response to you...and that did prompt a response from me.

No you didn't, you did reply to Darth-Obvious directly. I checked. It's post #56 in this thread where you responded as such.

 

Was it unwise to respond at all...I suppose it was. That said I will not stop posting because someone has taken to railing every post I throw up. It's an unfortunate practice that often happens when the point of posts is to "win" rather than to trade ideas and develop view points and theories in a collaborative fashion.

To me it's a knee-jerk reaction and as such they control you because they can rile you up on command. It's better to not "win" a discussion on the internet than fall for that trap. I know, I fell for it many times in the past.

[Darth-Obvious]

Was it unwise to respond at all...I suppose it was. That said I will not stop posting because someone has taken to railing every post I throw up. It's an unfortunate practice that often happens when the point of posts is to "win" rather than to trade ideas and develop view points and theories in a collaborative fashion.

 

No, by saying that you're being a hypocrite because you yourself refuse to try and carry on the conversation in any other fashion than what validates yourself.

 

I actually want to have a discussion/conversation, ie "Hey that doesn't work for these reasons but what are some other or different ways to get that objective?" but then people like you don't actually want to have a discussion and say things like "Well I shouldn't need to come up with or discuss other alternatives. That's not on me. Bioware should just do the thing I say." which all just circles back to you not actually wanting to have a discussion but instead want to put your thoughts out there and have them validated.

 

When that doesn't happen though or people explain why you can't have or get everything exactly the way you want it then you begin to have an attitude about it instead of actually trying to discuss it.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

[Darth-Obvious]

GW2 is a great game and your post is spot on... SWToR should by all accounts be a better game than it is...The resources just are not there and that is a management problem.

 

EA layoff the sports cars and put some money back in the SWToR budget...

 

Honestly if they went F2P and started dropping mini paid expansions every 3 months with real content I would buy them... But as it is I feel like SWToR is a dead game they throw a bone to occasionally just to keep the whales around...

 

Man I really wish people would stop playing arm-chair developer making all these assumptions and instead let Bioware and EA officially comment on these things

[Soljin]

No you didn't, you did reply to Darth-Obvious directly. I checked. It's post #56 in this thread where you responded as such.

 

To me it's a knee-jerk reaction and as such they control you because they can rile you up on command. It's better to not "win" a discussion on the internet than fall for that trap. I know, I fell for it many times in the past.

 

Once again let me clarify...I did not respond directly to D.O. post commenting that the conversation had grown stale, I responded to one of your posts at number 63. I appreciate the attempts to "win" I even appreciate the attempts for you to defend your second account or friend or what ever..It doesn't change that your both kinda post stalking at this point. IF you both stop bringing me up and replying I will gladly do the same... so Later!

Edited August 16, 2021 by Soljin