PTS thoughts from closed beta founder. The Great Nerfening upon us

[captainbladejk]

I already posted in the general thread asking for feedback, but I'm going to expand on my thoughts here a bit, and touch on items I didn't touch on over there in as great of detail. For my background really quickly, I am a founder in this game and have been here since the closed beta of this game. While I've invested more into certain classes and specs than others, I have played every class and spec. I also am a modder for older games and have designed many a map and mission for older games. Some of my maps used to be EA recommended for Timesplitters Future Perfect for weeks at a time. I have also branched out into other modern games. While I may not be a AAA studio dev, I know how to create content and items for games. Because of this background I also help devs of another game to track down bugs and report them for fixing. I have seen every patch, every change made to this game, most of them good, some of them not so good. When I left WoW after years of play, this was one of the games I found a community in. This will be a bit long as there's alot to unpack here.

 

For years this game has been my golden standard of what a story telling MMO should be. I was excited when i first heard about the expansion, but after seeing what's on PTS I no longer look forward to the expac and I am in fact dreading it. Until yesterday I saw no need to comment on the state of the game as it was mostly positive for me and folks said what I would want to anyways. However after seeing the PTS, I am legitimately angry.

 

Aside from my shadow/assasin tank being my main style of play, the Guardian has been my second most played class going all the way back to beta. What I saw on the PTS is little more than a cheap incomplete imitation of what is on the live servers now and quite frankly is an insult to players. The thing calling itself a "Guardian" on the PTS is NOT a true Jedi Guardian like exists on the live servers. Half of the abilities are missing and the toon has an incomplete toolkit. If I were asked to tank with what was on the PTS I would refuse, because it would be like asking me to rebuild an entire car engine in 5 minutes with a single sized, rusted out wrench that's going to break the first time I use it. Or the other example I used over in the other place, it's like someone stealing my wallet with $100 and my social security card in it, offering to give me back $10 or my social security card, then pretending they've done me a favor. Yet I'm still out my wallet, my social security card and $90, or I'm out $100 and my wallet.

 

As it sits right now on my Defense Guardian, and my Vigilance DPS Guardian (I have multiples of each class), I use every single ability in their toolkit and in their books. I may not use every ability in every fight, but those abilities still get used. As one example I may not use Awe on every single fight like a PVP person might use, but the ability does see use. I also generally don't have that many situations to take advantage of Guardian Leap, but it does get used. This does not make those abilities bad, nor does it automatically mean those abilities should be removed. Speaking in terms of my tank to keep this part more concise, Warding Strike, Guardian Slash, Blade Barrage, Saber Reflect, Challenging Call, Taunt, Force Kick, Strike, Slash, Force Sweep, Force Leap, Force Stasis, Guardian Leap, Riposte, Awe, Cyclone Slash, Blade Storm, Blade Blitz, Hilt Bash, Saber Ward, Freezing Force, Warding call, Resolute, Combat Focus, Enure, Force Push, Focused Defense, Saber Throw, and Dispatch, all get used at some point or another. Every single one of those abilities are abilities that provide value to the toolkit of my tank and are part of what he is.

 

These abilities are not difficult to understand if folks take a little bit of time to read each ability and what they do. For that matter there are many guides out there to help people, and folks like myself who do not mind helping people out who want to learn and grow with the game. I have spent many hours training folks in my guild, and even random folks who have asked for help in zone. Something that needs to be understood is that folks like myself and others, along with Bioware can put all the information in the world out there for people, but it means nothing if they're not willing to read it or listen. Bioware can lower the skill bar all the way to the floor of the basement level of hades itself, and there would still be people who can't do it. I was there when World of Warcraft tried to "prune unused abilities" years ago, and they ended up removing too many abilities. As one example, Arcane mages only had a 2 button rotation for a short amount of time. In Shadowlands they actually had to bring back the largest chunk of those abilities they had removed.

 

To keep the numbers simple, let's assume hypothetically I only had 10 abilities. If you steal 5 of those abilities, and offer to give 2 of them back to me out of my choice of the 5, that's not a choice, but an illusion of choice as you've still stolen 3 abilities from me. I should not have to pick between abilities I've had baseline since launch in most cases, and some passive ability. Stealing abilities and offering to give only some of them back to me is NOT choice, but is a slap in the face and in my book a lazy approach to class development. If you want me to consider giving up certain abilities, then give me alternatives worth considering. As one example, let's take the ability Cyclone Slash. This lets us spin our saber around and smack enemies within range. If you wanted me to give up that ability for something new, give me an ability worth considering as a replacement. Otherwise I'm a firm believer in the saying "if it aint broke don't fix it."

 

Despite what some people may say, this isn't about "not wanting to learn a new rotation" or similar baseless arguments, but about not wanting half my toolkit stolen from me, then given back to me as though it's something new and they're doing me a favor. In reality, all it's doing is nerfing my toon and robbing me of abilities to meet certain challenges. At this point I may as well be a glorified NPC doing an auto-attack swing. A Guardian is supposed to feel like a "Guardian of peace and justice" as described by Obi-Wan. What's on the PTS right now is like Uncle Owen stealing Anakin's lightsaber, then being asked to fight Valkorian in his prime of power. It's not going to end well. The "Guardians" on PTS are a cruel joke compared to what's on live. The Guardians on live feel like a powerful protector, the PTS does not.

 

In order to have character depth and make them feel like they're doing more than just auto-attacking, they need to have a healthy amount of abilities. That doesn't mean you need a book of abilities the size of War and Peace, but you need enough abilities that they don't feel like a one trick pony and that they have more than 5 abilities to adapt to the environment around them. if I wanted to play a game like Diablo that only has maybe 5 powers, I would go play Diablo. Nothing against the folks that enjoy that sort of thing, but I play SWTOR in part because it's not Diablo and it's not WoW. It has it's own story, own unique classes, and there's a healthy amount of abilities to each character. Nothing is forcing people to keep abilities on their bars they don't use. They choose to do that of their own accord. I may barely touch a certain ability, but the other guy playing the same thing in PVP or different kinds of content may use that ability as his bread and butter. Not everyone is going to like every ability in the toolkit, and not everyone is going to play the same kinds of content, which is why a class needs a healthy toolkit of abilities to appeal to different types of content. Simply hitting the same 2 attacks over and over is not fun for me, and I venture not fun for alot of others based off feedback i've been seeing. Otherwise I'm just standing there swinging a wet noddle the entire time doing nothing.

 

There was one ability I did not name in that list of abilities I use. While I Force Clarity and the other abilities that came in 6.0, they didn't bring very much to the table that wasn't already there. If an ability could be removed without very much issue, it would be those abilities and replaced with something better. You do NOT need to bring out new abilities every single expac for it to be exciting. Give me some good story content and some good gear pieces to choose from that lets me customize my character. An example of the one good thing from this expansion I'm seeing potentially, allowing us to use different weapon types. That is an example of something new and potentially exciting if done correctly. However doing it incorrectly is expecting me to give up half my abilities just to be able to use a weapon I like. A Jedi Guardian using the "dark side" variants of abilities is also not that big of a deal either, as it's basically a guardian using the Juggernaut visuals.

 

An example of a choice done well is presenting me with 3 abilities to help maintain my Force level on my Lightning Sorcerer. Do I want passive A which grants an upfront reduction in cost of abilities, Do I want passive B that caps the debuff from Consuming Darkness at 3 stacks instead of 4, or do I want passive C that refunds me a small amount of force for each tick of my DoT abilities? Depending on how one gears their Lightning Sorc, all 3 could be valid choices. Now expand that out to the Guardians and Juggernauts and all the other classes. If I can think of 3 abilities like that off the top of my head, certainly you guys can think of more.

 

On live the Guardian feels like a well oiled machine that can deliver extra power when needed. The Guardian on PTS feels like a broken down engine that can't move faster than the speed of smell. For years this game has been my golden standard of what a game should be, but what I saw on PTS is an outright insult to long time players and new players alike that is FAR FAR below the standard of what a Bioware game should be. It makes me angry because I know you guys can do better than this. It makes me angry because this feels like absolutely zero thought was put into this and it no longer feels like SWTOR, but a flavor of the month type of game that will be dead in a month. It makes me angry because I have enjoyed this game since launch and have maintained a subscription for years, encouraging others to do the same, and this feels like someone spitting in my face in return. I would like to keep enjoying this game for many more years to come, but if this absolutely subpar product on PTS is allowed to hit the live servers, I see my time in this game and the characters I have alot of time and memories with, all coming to an end. I am no longer excited for this expansion, but in fact I'm dreading it. The subpar product on PTS needs to be scrapped and the team needs to go back to the drawing board as this is an insult to what made SWTOR unique. What I see on the PTS robs Guardians of their uniqueness, as well as robs players of uniqueness that made this game what it is, and set it apart from other games for so long. It makes me angry that new players will not get to experience the same kind of quality content and gameplay that I did over the years, but instead would receive a subpar imitation that could never capture that SWTOR experience.

 

Stealing half our toolkits and then trying to give 2-3 abilities back to us is not choice. It's a false choice that has no legitimate purpose. There is no legitimate reason for removing half of our toolkits and abilities we've had since launch. You don't get uniqueness by removing everything unique and giving it away to everything in game. I don't want to see this game make the same mistake that WoW made and is continuing to suffer from. I mained a Death Knight tank on that game for years after having returned in Wrath of the Lich King. I played up until Draenor when they completely gutted the Death Knight class and others. I came to SWTOR to get away from foolishness and subpar development like that, and it's absolutely enraging that I'm potentially seeing it happen here. You guys severely dropped the ball and missed the mark on this on and need to go back to the drawing board. If you can't figure out how to improve the classes without touching the abilities, then leave it alone. When I play a Guardian, I want to feel like a guardian of peace and justice as Obi-Wan described, not this pitiful excuse of a character on PTS.

 

I realize this is alot of stuff to get through, but honestly you should work on enhancing what's already there and making it better, not removing half of the ability book. That's like a thief stealing only half the stuff in my house then pretending hid did me a favor. It's insulting and infuriating what I see on the PTS. Bioware, you guys dropped the ball big time and this is NOT the direction this game needs to go in. Stealing half my abilities then trying to give only a few back to me as "choice" isn't going to make me excited for an expansion, it's only going to make me want to stop playing the game. You guys can do ALOT better than this, and it's infuriating to me that this is what you seem to think of your playerbase that has kept your lights on all these years. I hope you make some changes for the better and you end up blowing my mind as you've done several times before. Right now, this is not mind blowing, this is an insult.

[Wolvel]

Same boat as you, was eager for 7.0 and the ability to change specs with saved toolbars and gear. Now I am scared of what this could do to the combat and feel of my favorite game.

[MordredSJT]

I echo the sentiment that there seems to be a lack of thought and imagination in what they have chosen to present to us. Consolidate some abilities, sure. Roll the utilities into passives you select on level up, ugh...ok I guess if you want to. Add new passives that can switch up your gameplay style by adding aoe or other effects to abilities, great. Taking away things that aid my mobility in crucial moments, my damage mitigation, and the only potential I have for a self cleanse...and make me choose which one I want? No thanks. You just gimped what my character is capable of doing.

 

Now, could I tank without those things? Absolutely. And what is on pts right now, against trash mobs, felt tanky enough. It wasn't the end of the world in that regard. However, do you have any idea how many times I've only stayed alive running a pug flashpoint (especially the more difficult ones) because I could blade blitz over somewhere quickly, or self cleanse because the healer doesn't know they needed to do that for me (or doesn't even know what it is in the first place). If I have a group that knows their roles and works together well, I might not need these things. How often does that really happen in group finder though?

Edited July 11, 2021 by MordredSJT

[Nathan_Hanefort]

I agree on every single word of OP. I stated it ij several topics.

[mike_carton]

Nice, well-written post, OP.

[arunav]

Sadly, after reading your post, I don't think EA/BW is aiming to retain players who are like you, in carrying out their business plan for SWTOR.

 

Most players aren't subscribers like us that play PVE at level cap, in addition to leveling characters or whatever else people may enjoy, like PVP or GSF or crafting.

 

They casually level, and, more importantly to BW, buy CM items, perhaps impulsively. Making a leveling experience that's easy to understand, even stupid-easy, may now be a priority, as is getting those players to buy the CM items we already have or unlocked, alongside anything new that is available for sale. This also applies to leveraging existing content for the same ends.

 

Players who subscribe, play endgame content, and care enough to post on PTS forums are dispensible. BW already got most of what we have to spend, if compared to what a new influx of casual players can provide, like potentially many of those that came with the Steam launch, for example.

 

If game development for SWTOR robustly focused on the experience at level cap by adding new playable content for all game modes, priorities would be different, and I doubt we'd be seeing the reworking of combat that's occurring. There would simply be no need for it, unlike, say, at the end of 2.x, when skill trees needed to go to avoid all sorts of hybrid builds that made decent class balance difficult, if not impossible, going forward.

 

But that's not the business model SWTOR follows, and development priorities differ as a consequence.

 

I hope the current advanced class disciplines don't end up feeling like a shell of what they currently are once 7.0 goes live. Like Galactic Command, a past debacle, major changes are probably essentially final by the time they make it to the PTS, with only nuances in the systems to tinker with. If the current simplifiation process goes forward, you'll have a choice to make on whether to quit or not, like all subscribers that have played SWTOR in a manner that actually utilizes the class abilities available to players, or those that just prefer having options or varied animations to use while leveling casually.

 

10 years was a good run, if BW decides to take the game, and its business, in a different direction. It's unfortunate for players that have been here since the beginning like you, but, again, we're not a population that matters much for revenue.

Edited July 12, 2021 by arunav

[captainbladejk]

Sadly, after reading your post, I don't think EA/BW is aiming to retain players who are like you, in carrying out their business plan for SWTOR.

 

Most players aren't subscribers like us that play PVE at level cap, in addition to leveling characters or whatever else people may enjoy, like PVP or GSF or crafting.

 

They casually level, and, more importantly to BW, buy CM items, perhaps impulsively. Making a leveling experience that's easy to understand, even stupid-easy, may now be a priority, as is getting those players to buy the CM items we already have or unlocked, alongside anything new that is available for sale. This also applies to leveraging existing content for the same ends.

 

Players who subscribe, play endgame content, and care enough to post on PTS forums are dispensible. BW already got most of what we have to spend, if compared to what a new influx of casual players can provide, like many of those that came with the Steam launch, for example.

 

If game development for SWTOR robustly focused on the experience at level cap by adding new playable content for all game modes, priorities would be different, and I doubt we'd be seeing the reworking of combat that's occurring. There would simply be no need for it, unlike, say, at the end of 2.x, when skill trees needed to go to avoid all sorts of hybrid builds that made decent class balance difficult, if not impossible, going forward.

 

But that's not the business model SWTOR follows, and development priorities differ as a consequence.

 

I hope the current advanced class disciplines don't end up feeling like a shell of what they currently are once 7.0 goes live. Like Galactic Command, a past debacle, major changes are probably essentially final by the time they make it to the PTS, with only nuances in the systems to tinker with. If the current simplifiation process goes forward, you'll have a choice to make on whether to quit or not, like all subscribers that have played SWTOR in a manner that actually utilizes the class abilities available to players, or those that just prefer having options or varied animations to use while leveling casually.

 

10 years was a good run, if BW decides to take the game, and its business, in a different direction. It's unfortunate for players that have been here since the beginning like you, but, again, we're not a population that matters much for revenue.

You make some pretty bold assumptions about my spending habits with this game. I get what you're trying to say but if they want to keep the game going and the lights on, they better reverse course. Aside from my monthly sub, I do in fact buy cartel market items. Sometimes to use for myself, sometimes to sell in game, sometimes to give to a friend. The big thing is it's the subscribers that pay the bills, not the casuals who may spend $20 once on a particular outfit they like. In 2 months of just paying my $15 monthly sub, I have paid 1.5 times what that casual player will pay for the course of their time in the game. Anything else I buy from cartel market is gravy to them.

 

In today's day and age, there is zero excuse for people not to be able to find some kind of information to teach them what they want to know with this game, or not finding someone in game willing to help. I don't expect a new person to get it right away, but if my guildmate who has schizophrenia and a load of other health issues can learn this game and play it, there is little to no excuse for the rest of them. Folks are only as helpless in this game as they choose to be. WoW's subs and numbers have tanked hard and continue to tank because of their decisions. There's already zero valid need to do what they're doing. No one is forcing the people who find certain abilities useless to keep using those abilities.

[cblodgett]

I consider myself an extremely casual player. I play this game for a month or two , but I subscribe when I do. Then let it rest for 6 months of more at a time. I rotate games I play regularly, I have ADHD so need different things to do in different games. Nothing in any of the MMOs I have ever play has ever kept my attention for very long. I spend money in cash shops in different games on a whim because I see something shiny and new. So I can tell you strait up that even their "target audience" with these changes are going to be extremely pissed off, because I know I am! I watched as another Star Wars game destroyed itself doing this exact same thing. Ability/class pruning, and dumbing down the game to the point that the games entire identity was no longer the amazing sandbox of choices, but a small set of cookie cutter class that lacked both form and function.

 

That game was Star Wars Galaxies, and the changes I speak of were the first "Combat Upgrade". Which totally negated and alienated more than half of that games population. That game had players who did nothing but craft, or dance and play music in cantina, but the combat upgrade took all that away and made anything player crafter totally useless because items no longer had to be repaired or replaced. Looted gear became the go-to and was 100x better than anything a player could make. This made the entire crafting side of the game entirely pointless. They lost hundreds of thousands of subs when that happened. And when that didn't work out as planed, they dumped the New Game Experience on a game population that screamed for the devs to take a step back and return to the drawing board. The NGE was the killing stroke for that game, players were jumping a sinking ship at this point and there was no saving it.

 

The Devs here are walking that exact same perilous path, and I am begging them to take a step back and rethink what they are doing here, before I have to watch history repeat itself, and watch another amazing Star Wars game destroy itself.

 

Heck even my forum signature here is a reference to SWG, because I loved that game, that was my character name and the server I played on....which is something I miss dearly.

Edited July 12, 2021 by cblodgett

[Kaizersan]

The problem is you are acting like this is the final pts build instead of the bare bones build that it actually is and it's clear by all the missing abilities that are listed on the forums so instead of acting like it's the end of the game wait till the actual last pts build to make a judgement about the system and remember they have roughly 6 months which is plenty of time to fix the system.

I already posted in the general thread asking for feedback, but I'm going to expand on my thoughts here a bit, and touch on items I didn't touch on over there in as great of detail. For my background really quickly, I am a founder in this game and have been here since the closed beta of this game. While I've invested more into certain classes and specs than others, I have played every class and spec. I also am a modder for older games and have designed many a map and mission for older games. Some of my maps used to be EA recommended for Timesplitters Future Perfect for weeks at a time. I have also branched out into other modern games. While I may not be a AAA studio dev, I know how to create content and items for games. Because of this background I also help devs of another game to track down bugs and report them for fixing. I have seen every patch, every change made to this game, most of them good, some of them not so good. When I left WoW after years of play, this was one of the games I found a community in. This will be a bit long as there's alot to unpack here.

 

For years this game has been my golden standard of what a story telling MMO should be. I was excited when i first heard about the expansion, but after seeing what's on PTS I no longer look forward to the expac and I am in fact dreading it. Until yesterday I saw no need to comment on the state of the game as it was mostly positive for me and folks said what I would want to anyways. However after seeing the PTS, I am legitimately angry.

 

Aside from my shadow/assasin tank being my main style of play, the Guardian has been my second most played class going all the way back to beta. What I saw on the PTS is little more than a cheap incomplete imitation of what is on the live servers now and quite frankly is an insult to players. The thing calling itself a "Guardian" on the PTS is NOT a true Jedi Guardian like exists on the live servers. Half of the abilities are missing and the toon has an incomplete toolkit. If I were asked to tank with what was on the PTS I would refuse, because it would be like asking me to rebuild an entire car engine in 5 minutes with a single sized, rusted out wrench that's going to break the first time I use it. Or the other example I used over in the other place, it's like someone stealing my wallet with $100 and my social security card in it, offering to give me back $10 or my social security card, then pretending they've done me a favor. Yet I'm still out my wallet, my social security card and $90, or I'm out $100 and my wallet.

 

As it sits right now on my Defense Guardian, and my Vigilance DPS Guardian (I have multiples of each class), I use every single ability in their toolkit and in their books. I may not use every ability in every fight, but those abilities still get used. As one example I may not use Awe on every single fight like a PVP person might use, but the ability does see use. I also generally don't have that many situations to take advantage of Guardian Leap, but it does get used. This does not make those abilities bad, nor does it automatically mean those abilities should be removed. Speaking in terms of my tank to keep this part more concise, Warding Strike, Guardian Slash, Blade Barrage, Saber Reflect, Challenging Call, Taunt, Force Kick, Strike, Slash, Force Sweep, Force Leap, Force Stasis, Guardian Leap, Riposte, Awe, Cyclone Slash, Blade Storm, Blade Blitz, Hilt Bash, Saber Ward, Freezing Force, Warding call, Resolute, Combat Focus, Enure, Force Push, Focused Defense, Saber Throw, and Dispatch, all get used at some point or another. Every single one of those abilities are abilities that provide value to the toolkit of my tank and are part of what he is.

 

These abilities are not difficult to understand if folks take a little bit of time to read each ability and what they do. For that matter there are many guides out there to help people, and folks like myself who do not mind helping people out who want to learn and grow with the game. I have spent many hours training folks in my guild, and even random folks who have asked for help in zone. Something that needs to be understood is that folks like myself and others, along with Bioware can put all the information in the world out there for people, but it means nothing if they're not willing to read it or listen. Bioware can lower the skill bar all the way to the floor of the basement level of hades itself, and there would still be people who can't do it. I was there when World of Warcraft tried to "prune unused abilities" years ago, and they ended up removing too many abilities. As one example, Arcane mages only had a 2 button rotation for a short amount of time. In Shadowlands they actually had to bring back the largest chunk of those abilities they had removed.

 

To keep the numbers simple, let's assume hypothetically I only had 10 abilities. If you steal 5 of those abilities, and offer to give 2 of them back to me out of my choice of the 5, that's not a choice, but an illusion of choice as you've still stolen 3 abilities from me. I should not have to pick between abilities I've had baseline since launch in most cases, and some passive ability. Stealing abilities and offering to give only some of them back to me is NOT choice, but is a slap in the face and in my book a lazy approach to class development. If you want me to consider giving up certain abilities, then give me alternatives worth considering. As one example, let's take the ability Cyclone Slash. This lets us spin our saber around and smack enemies within range. If you wanted me to give up that ability for something new, give me an ability worth considering as a replacement. Otherwise I'm a firm believer in the saying "if it aint broke don't fix it."

 

Despite what some people may say, this isn't about "not wanting to learn a new rotation" or similar baseless arguments, but about not wanting half my toolkit stolen from me, then given back to me as though it's something new and they're doing me a favor. In reality, all it's doing is nerfing my toon and robbing me of abilities to meet certain challenges. At this point I may as well be a glorified NPC doing an auto-attack swing. A Guardian is supposed to feel like a "Guardian of peace and justice" as described by Obi-Wan. What's on the PTS right now is like Uncle Owen stealing Anakin's lightsaber, then being asked to fight Valkorian in his prime of power. It's not going to end well. The "Guardians" on PTS are a cruel joke compared to what's on live. The Guardians on live feel like a powerful protector, the PTS does not.

 

In order to have character depth and make them feel like they're doing more than just auto-attacking, they need to have a healthy amount of abilities. That doesn't mean you need a book of abilities the size of War and Peace, but you need enough abilities that they don't feel like a one trick pony and that they have more than 5 abilities to adapt to the environment around them. if I wanted to play a game like Diablo that only has maybe 5 powers, I would go play Diablo. Nothing against the folks that enjoy that sort of thing, but I play SWTOR in part because it's not Diablo and it's not WoW. It has it's own story, own unique classes, and there's a healthy amount of abilities to each character. Nothing is forcing people to keep abilities on their bars they don't use. They choose to do that of their own accord. I may barely touch a certain ability, but the other guy playing the same thing in PVP or different kinds of content may use that ability as his bread and butter. Not everyone is going to like every ability in the toolkit, and not everyone is going to play the same kinds of content, which is why a class needs a healthy toolkit of abilities to appeal to different types of content. Simply hitting the same 2 attacks over and over is not fun for me, and I venture not fun for alot of others based off feedback i've been seeing. Otherwise I'm just standing there swinging a wet noddle the entire time doing nothing.

 

There was one ability I did not name in that list of abilities I use. While I Force Clarity and the other abilities that came in 6.0, they didn't bring very much to the table that wasn't already there. If an ability could be removed without very much issue, it would be those abilities and replaced with something better. You do NOT need to bring out new abilities every single expac for it to be exciting. Give me some good story content and some good gear pieces to choose from that lets me customize my character. An example of the one good thing from this expansion I'm seeing potentially, allowing us to use different weapon types. That is an example of something new and potentially exciting if done correctly. However doing it incorrectly is expecting me to give up half my abilities just to be able to use a weapon I like. A Jedi Guardian using the "dark side" variants of abilities is also not that big of a deal either, as it's basically a guardian using the Juggernaut visuals.

 

An example of a choice done well is presenting me with 3 abilities to help maintain my Force level on my Lightning Sorcerer. Do I want passive A which grants an upfront reduction in cost of abilities, Do I want passive B that caps the debuff from Consuming Darkness at 3 stacks instead of 4, or do I want passive C that refunds me a small amount of force for each tick of my DoT abilities? Depending on how one gears their Lightning Sorc, all 3 could be valid choices. Now expand that out to the Guardians and Juggernauts and all the other classes. If I can think of 3 abilities like that off the top of my head, certainly you guys can think of more.

 

On live the Guardian feels like a well oiled machine that can deliver extra power when needed. The Guardian on PTS feels like a broken down engine that can't move faster than the speed of smell. For years this game has been my golden standard of what a game should be, but what I saw on PTS is an outright insult to long time players and new players alike that is FAR FAR below the standard of what a Bioware game should be. It makes me angry because I know you guys can do better than this. It makes me angry because this feels like absolutely zero thought was put into this and it no longer feels like SWTOR, but a flavor of the month type of game that will be dead in a month. It makes me angry because I have enjoyed this game since launch and have maintained a subscription for years, encouraging others to do the same, and this feels like someone spitting in my face in return. I would like to keep enjoying this game for many more years to come, but if this absolutely subpar product on PTS is allowed to hit the live servers, I see my time in this game and the characters I have alot of time and memories with, all coming to an end. I am no longer excited for this expansion, but in fact I'm dreading it. The subpar product on PTS needs to be scrapped and the team needs to go back to the drawing board as this is an insult to what made SWTOR unique. What I see on the PTS robs Guardians of their uniqueness, as well as robs players of uniqueness that made this game what it is, and set it apart from other games for so long. It makes me angry that new players will not get to experience the same kind of quality content and gameplay that I did over the years, but instead would receive a subpar imitation that could never capture that SWTOR experience.

 

Stealing half our toolkits and then trying to give 2-3 abilities back to us is not choice. It's a false choice that has no legitimate purpose. There is no legitimate reason for removing half of our toolkits and abilities we've had since launch. You don't get uniqueness by removing everything unique and giving it away to everything in game. I don't want to see this game make the same mistake that WoW made and is continuing to suffer from. I mained a Death Knight tank on that game for years after having returned in Wrath of the Lich King. I played up until Draenor when they completely gutted the Death Knight class and others. I came to SWTOR to get away from foolishness and subpar development like that, and it's absolutely enraging that I'm potentially seeing it happen here. You guys severely dropped the ball and missed the mark on this on and need to go back to the drawing board. If you can't figure out how to improve the classes without touching the abilities, then leave it alone. When I play a Guardian, I want to feel like a guardian of peace and justice as Obi-Wan described, not this pitiful excuse of a character on PTS.

 

I realize this is alot of stuff to get through, but honestly you should work on enhancing what's already there and making it better, not removing half of the ability book. That's like a thief stealing only half the stuff in my house then pretending hid did me a favor. It's insulting and infuriating what I see on the PTS. Bioware, you guys dropped the ball big time and this is NOT the direction this game needs to go in. Stealing half my abilities then trying to give only a few back to me as "choice" isn't going to make me excited for an expansion, it's only going to make me want to stop playing the game. You guys can do ALOT better than this, and it's infuriating to me that this is what you seem to think of your playerbase that has kept your lights on all these years. I hope you make some changes for the better and you end up blowing my mind as you've done several times before. Right now, this is not mind blowing, this is an insult.

[Wolvel]

I mean remember the uproar about galactic command? Didnt get changed at all despite the criticism

[Kaizersan]

Are you smoking crack galactic command changed a lot after it was released based on people complaining.

I mean remember the uproar about galactic command? Didnt get changed at all despite the criticism

[DsevenO]

I'm curious if this dumbing down of the game is a move toward mobile. It's the only explanation I can come up with for the absolute gutting of the classes. This is pokemon with lightsabers. What the game needed was an enhancement/retooling of existing abilities. If you want to cut fat, remove the mostly crap abilities you added in 6.0 and remove accuracy rating from the game.

[Kaizersan]

No because that would cost EA money they don't want to spend on a 10 year old MMO.

I'm curious if this dumbing down of the game is a move toward mobile. It's the only explanation I can come up with for the absolute gutting of the classes. This is pokemon with lightsabers. What the game needed was an enhancement/retooling of existing abilities. If you want to cut fat, remove the mostly crap abilities you added in 6.0 and remove accuracy rating from the game.

[captainbladejk]

The problem is you are acting like this is the final pts build instead of the bare bones build that it actually is and it's clear by all the missing abilities that are listed on the forums so instead of acting like it's the end of the game wait till the actual last pts build to make a judgement about the system and remember they have roughly 6 months which is plenty of time to fix the system.

 

I'll tell you the same thing I told the other guy who used that same bogus argument. We do NOT need to know every single one and zero of the build to see this is a dumpster fire. If we wait until the last second to speak up and say anything at all, then the damage will surely have been done. They need to be made to see how bad this is and how subpar it is. As I said prior, WoW did this same exact thing which is one of the reasons why I don't play that game anymore. The last thing I want to see is SWTOR doing the same foolish mistake that WoW did. If they're going to fix the system and listen to feedback they need to start now by scrapping this abomination and starting over.

[Kaizersan]

Thats the problem is that your projecting your own fears and assuming that because WoW did it that it's going to happen again instead of you know waiting till you actually have all the information to make a informed opinion.

I'll tell you the same thing I told the other guy who used that same bogus argument. We do NOT need to know every single one and zero of the build to see this is a dumpster fire. If we wait until the last second to speak up and say anything at all, then the damage will surely have been done. They need to be made to see how bad this is and how subpar it is. As I said prior, WoW did this same exact thing which is one of the reasons why I don't play that game anymore. The last thing I want to see is SWTOR doing the same foolish mistake that WoW did. If they're going to fix the system and listen to feedback they need to start now by scrapping this abomination and starting over.

[captainbladejk]

Thats the problem is that your projecting your own fears and assuming that because WoW did it that it's going to happen again instead of you know waiting till you actually have all the information to make a informed opinion.

You guys need to seriously come up with some new arguments because "you're just projecting" and "we need to wait until we have all the information" are not valid arguments. They're nothing but emotional appeals with no substance that offer nothing in rebuttal to anything said.

 

Second, trying the exact same thing twice and expecting a different result is the literal definition of insanity. If World of Warcraft, which is a much bigger game and a larger playerbase couldn't make The Great Nerfening work, what makes you think it's going to be any different here? If they release new info or the complete PTS build and it turns out I was wrong, then I'll gladly admit I jumped the gun, and honestly that's what I hope happens. However until that happens, my opinion is informed by the data we have available. Again you don't need to see every single one or zero of a code to know if something they're doing is bad. They offered this as a preview of what was to come, meaning we're going to see more of this exact thing if they don't reverse course. If this is a preview, it's not that far of a stretch to know they've done the same things with other classes.

 

You also need to understand that myself and others have already been through this sort of thing in WoW and elsewhere. We saw how it completely changed those games for the negative, which is why we're speaking up now so the uniqueness of SWTOR isn't lost on some flavor of the month idea that'll cause a mass exodus from the game. I want my guardian to feel like a guardian of peace and justice as described by Obi-Wan, not some cheap mobile game imitation that only uses 5 buttons like a bad Diablo ripoff. They asked for feedback and I am giving them feedback. You're certainly free to disagree with my feedback, but disagreement doesn't make my feedback any less valid, nor does it make your feedback more valid.

[Kaizersan]

If you think saying we need to wait till we have all the information before making rational criticism isn't a valid argument then you likely make a lot of poor uninformed choices in life because no good ever came from jumping the gun.

You guys need to seriously come up with some new arguments because "you're just projecting" and "we need to wait until we have all the information" are not valid arguments. They're nothing but emotional appeals with no substance that offer nothing in rebuttal to anything said.

 

Second, trying the exact same thing twice and expecting a different result is the literal definition of insanity. If World of Warcraft, which is a much bigger game and a larger playerbase couldn't make The Great Nerfening work, what makes you think it's going to be any different here? If they release new info or the complete PTS build and it turns out I was wrong, then I'll gladly admit I jumped the gun, and honestly that's what I hope happens. However until that happens, my opinion is informed by the data we have available. Again you don't need to see every single one or zero of a code to know if something they're doing is bad. They offered this as a preview of what was to come, meaning we're going to see more of this exact thing if they don't reverse course. If this is a preview, it's not that far of a stretch to know they've done the same things with other classes.

 

You also need to understand that myself and others have already been through this sort of thing in WoW and elsewhere. We saw how it completely changed those games for the negative, which is why we're speaking up now so the uniqueness of SWTOR isn't lost on some flavor of the month idea that'll cause a mass exodus from the game. I want my guardian to feel like a guardian of peace and justice as described by Obi-Wan, not some cheap mobile game imitation that only uses 5 buttons like a bad Diablo ripoff. They asked for feedback and I am giving them feedback. You're certainly free to disagree with my feedback, but disagreement doesn't make my feedback any less valid, nor does it make your feedback more valid.

[captainbladejk]

If you think saying we need to wait till we have all the information before making rational criticism isn't a valid argument then you likely make a lot of poor uninformed choices in life because no good ever came from jumping the gun.

They stated they wanted us to test the Guardian first to get a feel of what was to come. Meaning that they have changes like this planned for all classes and all specs. This means I don't need to see those other classes to know it will be bad since they're all getting the same treatment. That's called an informed inference. Meaning based on information we have available, all classes would receive the same Great Nerfening if this is allowed to continue. If you hire a contractor to do work on your house, and they do a completely terrible job by destroying your living room, it's a safe bet they destroyed other rooms.

 

Saying "you need to wait until we know everything" is not a valid criticism in this instance because we know this is going to happen to all classes based on information they gave us. We may not know every single ability they're removing for every single class, but the fact remains it shouldn't be happening at all. Aside from the very small minority here on this forum in the last while I have no seen a single person complain about ability bloat. What I have however seen is people saying this is totally unnecessary and will harm the game as a whole. The Guardian was just the first preview of what they have planned which is why folks are speaking up now. If folks don't speak up now, there will not be enough time for them to reverse course to meet the release date, meaning we'll have to wait who knows how long for them to realize they screwed up and fix their mistakes. Again we know this is planned for other classes based on statements they have made. So there is no "we don't have all the information" since Bioware gave us the information to start with.

[SirCaldric]

If you think saying we need to wait till we have all the information before making rational criticism isn't a valid argument then you likely make a lot of poor uninformed choices in life because no good ever came from jumping the gun.

 

Just give up, my man. Some of these people will not even think about trying to see things another way. Trust me, I've tried as well.

 

You'll save yourself a lot of frustration and sanity just by letting them do whatever they want.

[captainbladejk]

Just give up, my man. Some of these people will not even think about trying to see things another way. Trust me, I've tried as well.

 

You'll save yourself a lot of frustration and sanity just by letting them do whatever they want.

Have you ever thought about using legitimate arguments and not emotion based appeals, that maybe folks would then be willing to dialogue with you? I've seen several of you trying to say how we're overreacting or similar. Yet not a single one of you has tried debating why you think this is a good idea. Not a single one of you has offered solutions to anything. The only things you've done is try to bash people for saying what's on the PTS is a bad idea.

[Kaizersan]

Have you ever thought about using legitimate arguments and not emotion based appeals, that maybe folks would then be willing to dialogue with you? I've seen several of you trying to say how we're overreacting or similar. Yet not a single one of you has tried debating why you think this is a good idea. Not a single one of you has offered solutions to anything. The only things you've done is try to bash people for saying what's on the PTS is a bad idea.

 

that's because most of us rational people are waiting for a more complete system to be put on the pts before making judgements

[SirCaldric]

Have you ever thought about using legitimate arguments and not emotion based appeals, that maybe folks would then be willing to dialogue with you? I've seen several of you trying to say how we're overreacting or similar. Yet not a single one of you has tried debating why you think this is a good idea. Not a single one of you has offered solutions to anything. The only things you've done is try to bash people for saying what's on the PTS is a bad idea.

 

You know, it's rather fascinating that you, in my other thread, wrote long emotional "essays" on your own experiences from the past and how they affect your appeals to the developers here but want to for some reason call out "emotion based appeals" from other people. You called me a hypocrite and that I had no idea what I was talking about. I repeatedly told you I don't think this would be a good idea if it does indeed go the way you all fear it will.

 

Go read my post again if it pleases you, friend. You can see that you try to call me out for "spinning" this even though that is what you're doing right now, in this post. The only thing I've bashed you for is how you're incapable of looking outside the box you've put yourself in, refusing to see any other perspective than "this is ability pruning we're all doomed", even though in reality we really don't know what's going on with this, and I repeat myself yet again, disaster of a testing phase.

 

Combat Styles COULD BE a good idea if they were to present it as they vaguely explained it on their stream, but as of yet we have not seen any of that and as such I'm not going to draw any conclusions from this unexpectedly poor test. I literally have no material to debate with, be it for or against.

 

This is exactly why I made a whole thread about calming down, geez.

 

EDIT: Actually thinking about it, this post definitely makes me a hypocrite. I just told someone not to bother with people who refuse to try to see this any other way, and yet here I am. Welp.

Edited July 14, 2021 by SirCaldric