MrTijger Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Still fending off the ignorant trolls even in 90th page of the 3rd thread. Your patience far exceeds my own, good sir. Ah yes, any disagreement must be met with insult. Well done and reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 You're getting off point. You're countering my reply by talking about subjective unproven 'facts' such as how "This will kill the game" and "many more will quit thank this thread leads to believe" etc. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the very basic notion of using the popularity of this thread as an affirmative argument through some measure of rough % of players extrapolated from % posting here. You are going in little circles using unsubstantiated opinion to back up your statement which you pass off as fact, and you did it condescendingly I might add. I'll break down what I'm saying: 1. You say that you believe that this issue will lead to the death of the game if unfixed <-- Unsubstantiated opinion (can't see the future) 2. You support your point or counter detractors of your point by saying that in fact this thread IS representative of the overall mood of the game population when I am saying that the nature of complaints means that a disproportionate % will be represented by those who are unhappy rather than happy. <-- Challenged as untrue by my point and others 3. You counter 2. by saying that it doesn't really matter because 1. is true and will kill the game no matter how you choose to perceive the thread's representation of the overall population <-- Circular logic that is again opinion and impossible to substantiate You cannot say in any definitive way that this will kill the game. Its YOURS and others' opinions that this is a game killing fact, if unfixed. For sure those who post here who say its terminal for them will likely quit, but that does not prove anything as nobody can see the future, nobody knows for sure. Ultimately I'm only contesting your argument that this thread is an affirmative representation of the community's feelings when its just not possible to gather any empirical data from it. You can only be sure what those who are unhappy who post feel. You cannot prove any measure of overall wider % of unhappiness over it. Logic suggests that in fact you should underestimate conservatively the overall feeling based on this thread AT THIS MOMENT. Its too early to measure accurately the feeling on this, you can't really gather any factual statistics until you get to a point when you can count active subs and cancellations AFTER the free 30 days as many who will quit will keep their cards active just to run out their already purchased time. I don't disagree with anything you said really, lets see what happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtype_sw Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) You're getting off point. You're countering my reply by talking about subjective unproven 'facts' such as how "This will kill the game" and "many more will quit thank this thread leads to believe" etc. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the very basic notion of using the popularity of this thread as an affirmative argument through some measure of rough % of players extrapolated from % posting here. You are going in little circles using unsubstantiated opinion to back up your statement which you pass off as fact, and you did it condescendingly I might add. I'll break down what I'm saying: 1. You say that you believe that this issue will lead to the death of the game if unfixed <-- Unsubstantiated opinion (can't see the future) 2. You support your point or counter detractors of your point by saying that in fact this thread IS representative of the overall mood of the game population when I am saying that the nature of complaints means that a disproportionate % will be represented by those who are unhappy rather than happy. <-- Challenged as untrue by my point and others 3. You counter 2. by saying that it doesn't really matter because 1. is true and will kill the game no matter how you choose to perceive the thread's representation of the overall population <-- Circular logic that is again opinion and impossible to substantiate You cannot say in any definitive way that this will kill the game. Its YOURS and others' opinions that this is a game killing fact, if unfixed. For sure those who post here who say its terminal for them will likely quit, but that does not prove anything as nobody can see the future, nobody knows for sure. Ultimately I'm only contesting your argument that this thread is an affirmative representation of the community's feelings when its just not possible to gather any empirical data from it. You can only be sure what those who are unhappy who post feel. You cannot prove any measure of overall wider % of unhappiness over it. Logic suggests that in fact you should underestimate conservatively the overall feeling based on this thread AT THIS MOMENT. Its too early to measure accurately the feeling on this, you can't really gather any factual statistics until you get to a point when you can count active subs and cancellations AFTER the free 30 days as many who will quit will keep their cards active just to run out their already purchased time. Ah, another poster who would rather spend their time conjuring up elaborate posts aimed at nitpicking the linguistic fallacies of the OP, in a futile attempt to demonstrate their argumentative skills. Haven't you seen the videos as well as read up on the complaints? Why would you NOT want to advocate a thread that is aimed to making this game better? Honestly some people I swear... Edited January 2, 2012 by jtype_sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumahawk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Ive read what a very small few are calling an "ability-delay" or lack of responsiveness in combat. I've tried to recreate the issue and can't. Im not sure there is any ability-dalay whatsoever; however there may be a "learn-to-play" issue. So I go to buy a new car and after I drive it off the lot, I realize that the wheels are being held on by plastic lug nuts. I can barely keep the thing on the road on the way back to the dealership, as the wheels are now wobbling and the steering wheel is shaking wildly in my hands. I pull up and demand to see the owner about this issue--it's unsafe and goes against established industry manufacturing standards and norms. I am told to sit and wait in the showroom and that management is busy and can't speak to me right now. My dream car, that I saved up for 4 years to purchase, turns out to be rife with construction and design flaws. Sure, the leather seats are well sewn, and the radio has kick-*** sound, but it doesn't serve its primary function: to get me from one point to another. As I sit in the showroom, I am approached by a young customer who just got back from taking the same vehicle for a test drive. He tells me that he plans on buying the car and can't wait to drive it around town to show off to his friends. When I begin to warn him of the underlying issues surrounding the car, he interrupts me and says, "yeah, I know...the same thing happened to the one I was driving". I ask him why he would buy such a dangerous vehicle that may not get him to and from school after a week, and he says "dude, when the front right wheel pops off on the interstate, the feeling is intense--you just have to learn to control it and enjoy the ride. After all, regular cars are boring and don't take any skill." I'm sorry, but the UI is malfunctioning and for most of us, it ruins the primary function of the software--to play a game. I'm getting so tired of people pulling the "learn to play" card to justify poorly implemented game mechanics. There isn't a right or wrong here. It's broken, unless you can point to the section in the Tutorials or manual that states that spamming an attack repeatedly and having it loop an animation while not attacking (or healing) is a feature implemented to simulate the rigors of space opera combat. Take your fan-dance and just give me a solid UI. Edited January 2, 2012 by Traumahawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXShagnastyXx Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I'm gonna go ahead and sign off on this post. I waited to reach lvl 30 for a more solid opinion on the subject but I am in 100% agreement. The ability lag IS there whether anyone wants to believe it or not. All available resources need to be immediately brought in to fix this issue or the game will most likely fail. Forget balancing and quest bugs at the moment, fix this issue immediately or it will cost this company big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahlin Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I just read through the OP, and whoever that "pro" gamer was is talking out of his rear end. The issue really isn't as pronounced as he makes out, and all of the "omgtheyrippedoffwow" comments he makes just goes to show how little he knows about what he's talking about. I'd challenge him to talk to some of our guys about the game with any degree of weight behind his words. He seems intent on slating it to no end, including gross exaggerations of the problems at hand. Poor form, sir. It's actually worse than he made out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTijger Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) .................................................................................. YOU STILL NEED PROOF???? Dear god sir, Have you not read the OP? AT ALL? Have you not read 3 Threads worth of this discussed? Pick your proof... how is this "opinion" anymore?! This is no more opinion that the Theory of Evolution is. I say to you MrTijger (lol), there is NO MISSING LINK, there is a line of links clearly visible... more coming all the time. There cannot be a "Crocoduck" that is not how it works, you are not understanding the subject enough to make these claims. Try reading with comprehension and then try to reply like an adult? Also, any theory also provides a way to disprove it, please be so kind as to provide that? On the OP, I dont experienxe the issue myself but nowhere do I deny that you might btw. Edited January 2, 2012 by MrTijger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajjw Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 So I go to buy a new car and after I drive it off the lot, I realize that the wheels are being held on by plastic lug nuts. I can barely keep the thing on the road on the way back to the dealership, as the wheels are now wobbling and the steering wheel is shaking wildly in my hands. I pull up and demand to see the owner about this issue--it's unsafe and goes against established industry manufacturing standards and norms. I am told to sit and wait in the showroom and that management is busy and can't speak to me right now. My dream car, that I saved up for 4 years to purchase, turns out to be rife with construction and design flaws. Sure, the leather seats are well sewn, and the radio has kick-*** sound, but it doesn't serve its primary function: to get me from one point to another. As I sit in the showroom, I am approached by a young customer who just got back from taking the same vehicle for a test drive. He tells me that he plans on buying the car and can't wait to drive it around town to show off to his friends. When I begin to warn him of the underlying issues surrounding the car, he interrupts me and says, "yeah, I know...the same thing happened to the one I was driving". I ask him why he would buy such a dangerous vehicle that may not get him to and from school after a week, and he says "dude, when the front right wheel pops off on the interstate, the feeling is intense--you just have to learn to control it and enjoy the ride. After all, regular cars are boring and don't take any skill." I'm sorry, but the UI is malfunctioning and for most of us, it ruins the primary function of the software--to play a game. I'm getting so tired of people pulling the "learn to play" card to justify poorly implemented game mechanics. There isn't a right or wrong here. It's broken, unless you can point to the section in the Tutorials or manual that states that spamming an attack repeatedly and having it loop an animation while not attacking (or healing) is a feature implemented to simulate the rigors of space opera combat. Take your fan-dance and just give me a solid UI. Possibly the best analogy brought up in the threads so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Haven't you seen the videos as well as read up on the complaints? Why would you NOT want to advocate a thread that is aimed to making this game better? Honestly some people I swear... Hes nitpicking a little on truth-claims and such. No problem there he has a point, how do "I Know that this will break the game"? I suppose I could write a thesis and analysis of the failure of all the past games related to this issue at hand. This would have "some" convincing attributes but in the end, that is what this thread is anyways. In any case, he is arguing strictly formatting and presentation, not the actual subject... which is fine. I am not the greatest at presenting my claims and arguments. I am far too passionate with the subject at hand to really "watch what I say" in this regard. Many faults can be picked out from my presentation, I don't believe many faults can be found with the issue discussed though (Which is all that matters). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtype_sw Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Hes nitpicking a little on truth-claims and such. No problem there he has a point, how do "I Know that this will break the game"? I suppose I could write a thesis and analysis of the failure of all the past games related to this issue at hand. This would have "some" convincing attributes but in the end, that is what this thread is anyways. In any case, he is arguing strictly formatting and presentation, not the actual subject... which is fine. I am not the greatest at presenting my claims and arguments. I am far too passionate with the subject at hand to really "watch what I say" in this regard. Many faults can be picked out from my presentation, I don't believe many faults can be found with the issue discussed though (Which is all that matters). Yet another poster who would rather spend their time conjuring up elaborate posts aimed at nitpicking the linguistic fallacies of the OP, in a futile attempt to demonstrate their argumentative skills. Save that for Logical Theory 101, not here. *rolls eyes Edited January 2, 2012 by jtype_sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Funk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Haven't you seen the videos as well as read up on the complaints? Why would you NOT want to advocate a thread that is aimed to making this game better? Honestly some people I swear... You mean that I should get on board with the spirit behind the thread if I agree with the merits of the argument and NOT disagree with people who I feel are making inaccurate statements? Your mindset says if you believe in a politician you help him steal the election cause it'll turn out better anyway. No my point was in direct reply to the person whom I was quoting. As I said I was not contesting the merits of whether it was a problem or not. I was arguing that his 'logic' was not in fact correct as he represented it and I felt that his condescending delivery of it deserved a carefully argued rebuke. As for my view on the issue I don't know if its a real problem. I have no sense myself that it is when I play but that doesn't mean that it isn't. I can't know how many feel its like this, I never played WoW so I have no frame of reference for judging it other than to basically accept the arguments of those who are already obviously biased in favour of it. Simply I don't have the MMO experience to be able to throw in with a broader argument about the quality or health of this game in relation to this issue. All I can do is judge my own enjoyment and feeling about the gameplay and so far its not been an issue for me at all. I'm staying on the fence here and only replying to those who I feel are doing the thread a disservice through poor argument or arrogance. @Xcore Glad we can respect each other after that exchange. Edited January 2, 2012 by P-Funk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indelible Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Yes it is, that pronounced... you simply aren't on his level of perceiving the environment and game world to be qualified to judge it to that degree. How can you be so dense? Your reaction time is Double (at least) of his, your APM is less than half of his... who are you to even make such a "horrendously" obnoxious claim. Show some respect and come back to earth... your APM is too low, your Reaction Time is too High. Accept it, improve if you care... enjoy other aspects (Story etc.) if you don't. But don't be so ignorant to discount the views of someone far advanced in this matter... The irony of your point here should not be lost on someone as advanced as you seem to be. At no point have I said you were WRONG. What I have said, very carefully, is that the problem you make out is a gross inflation of the problem that exists. I'm entirely open to the idea that I may be missing something, however through my own experience as well as the experience of my guild mates (some of which are former members of guilds such as Method, Apathy, Third Realm Alliance, etc (including myself) as well as former World Champion FPS players) the problem ISN'T as pronounced as you make out and the detrimental impact it is having on the player base ISN'T as "doom and gloom" as you peddle. We've discussed it endlessly in person, on TS, on our forums, and we emphatically disagree with your exaggerations. You may continue prostrating now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Try reading with comprehension and then try to reply like an adult? Also, any theory also provides a way to disprove it, please be so kind as to provide that? On the OP, I dont experienxe the issue myself but nowhere do I deny that you might btw. The term "Theory" has two different definitions, which "Theory" are you arguing about? If you want to "disprove" the "Theory of Evolution" its actually quite simple... however, it has not been done. It involves finding fossils in strata's that should not be found there etc. A bunny in the Cretaceous will disprove it very fast... Please leave the thread, enjoy your game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Funk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Many faults can be picked out from my presentation, I don't believe many faults can be found with the issue discussed though (Which is all that matters). I'm being a kind of de facto moderator in my reply really. I'm just saying 'what you're saying isn't really as true, I believe, as you are making it out to be'. The merits of what you're arguing I'm still undecided on so I'm reading this thread with interest to see if I can come to any conclusion. I just am a bit anal about keeping discussion intelligent since it does nobody any good to do it wrong since we're trying to convince people either way. So argue on friend. I'll just be watching and reading and maybe tapping people on the shoulder to say 'that isn't exactly fair is it?'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Funk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Yet another poster who would rather spend their time conjuring up elaborate posts aimed at nitpicking the linguistic fallacies of the OP, in a futile attempt to demonstrate their argumentative skills. Save that for Logical Theory 101, not here. *rolls eyes Yes, because when the issue is apparently this serious, why should anybody bother being logical? Lets just yell really loudly and mock anybody who doesn't agree with us and then we can hopefully win the day through sheer argumentative brutality. Seriously, you should go work for the GOP with that attitude. I'm being respectful in my disagreement and you want to take me down for that? You might as well have said "Save the civilized discussion for the real world, this is the internet, you're supposed to troll your way to victory". To quote yourself: Some people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTijger Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) The term "Theory" has two different definitions, which "Theory" are you arguing about? If you want to "disprove" the "Theory of Evolution" its actually quite simple... however, it has not been done. It involves finding fossils in strata's that should not be found there etc. A bunny in the Cretaceous will disprove it very fast... Please leave the thread, enjoy your game. Yeah...that attitude you can save for a place where you have an actual say, not here. PS: how is that proof coming along? Do try to read my original question again and answer it this time? Edited January 2, 2012 by MrTijger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 You mean that I should get on board with the spirit behind the thread if I agree with the merits of the argument and NOT disagree with people who I feel are making inaccurate statements? Your mindset says if you believe in a politician you help him steal the election cause it'll turn out better anyway. No my point was in direct reply to the person whom I was quoting. As I said I was not contesting the merits of whether it was a problem or not. I was arguing that his 'logic' was not in fact correct as he represented it and I felt that his condescending delivery of it deserved a carefully argued rebuke. As for my view on the issue I don't know if its a real problem. I have no sense myself that it is when I play but that doesn't mean that it isn't. I can't know how many feel its like this, I never played WoW so I have no frame of reference for judging it other than to basically accept the arguments of those who are already obviously biased in favour of it. Simply I don't have the MMO experience to be able to throw in with a broader argument about the quality or health of this game in relation to this issue. All I can do is judge my own enjoyment and feeling about the gameplay and so far its not been an issue for me at all. I'm staying on the fence here and only replying to those who I feel are doing the thread a disservice through poor argument or arrogance. @Xcore Glad we can respect each other after that exchange. Again, I have nothing to contest or argue about with you. You have my respect and you are right with your first response to me in regards of the statistical facts etc. I should add that those are really not what concerns me and discussing this would surely be interesting but derail this thread and an important issue. Again, I am in no disagreement. I apologize if I come off strong at times, it is merely driven by frustration and passion but I fully realize that I can be very condescending. This is likely due to my now low tolerance to this subject as well as naturally sarcastic nature. Truly though, thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtype_sw Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Yes, because when the issue is apparently this serious, why should anybody bother being logical? Lets just yell really loudly and mock anybody who doesn't agree with us and then we can hopefully win the day through sheer argumentative brutality. Seriously, you should go work for the GOP with that attitude. I'm being respectful in my disagreement and you want to take me down for that? You might as well have said "Save the civilized discussion for the real world, this is the internet, you're supposed to troll your way to victory". To quote yourself: Some people... I'm not going to spend my time writing an essay in addressing all of your points, whether they be valid or not. But unlike what you claim, the OP and those supporting him are hardly "trolling their way to victory" in regards to this issue. Please don't downplay their contributions which in my opinion, may very well save the future of this game that you and others like you, enjoy. Edited January 2, 2012 by jtype_sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeetofox Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The term "Theory" has two different definitions, which "Theory" are you arguing about? If you want to "disprove" the "Theory of Evolution" its actually quite simple... however, it has not been done. It involves finding fossils in strata's that should not be found there etc. A bunny in the Cretaceous will disprove it very fast... Please leave the thread, enjoy your game. Did you just say that finding a bunny fossil in the Cretaceous is easy? Because that's what it seems like you're trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indelible Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I'm being a kind of de facto moderator in my reply really. I'm just saying 'what you're saying isn't really as true, I believe, as you are making it out to be'. The merits of what you're arguing I'm still undecided on so I'm reading this thread with interest to see if I can come to any conclusion. I just am a bit anal about keeping discussion intelligent since it does nobody any good to do it wrong since we're trying to convince people either way. So argue on friend. I'll just be watching and reading and maybe tapping people on the shoulder to say 'that isn't exactly fair is it?'. The merits of what he's arguing are perfectly valid. I cannot argue with the sentiment. I would not; there is a problem, and it needs resolving. He has, however, (and as I will keep pointing out) exaggerated and inflated the problem, whether due to the passion he feels or whether due to some other purpose he feels he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtype_sw Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) The merits of what he's arguing are perfectly valid. I cannot argue with the sentiment. I would not; there is a problem, and it needs resolving. He has, however, (and as I will keep pointing out) exaggerated and inflated the problem, whether due to the passion he feels or whether due to some other purpose he feels he has. I suspect it's most likely due to the passion that he (as well as many of us) have towards the game and our wanting to see it a success. I understand your need to act as a makeshift moderator in a pursuit of maintaining the integrity of this thread, but you guys are seriously nitpicking, and this isn't a court. Cut him a break. Edited January 2, 2012 by jtype_sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olzmo Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) The term "Theory" has two different definitions, which "Theory" are you arguing about? If you want to "disprove" the "Theory of Evolution" its actually quite simple... however, it has not been done. It involves finding fossils in strata's that should not be found there etc. A bunny in the Cretaceous will disprove it very fast... Please leave the thread, enjoy your game. Explicit off-topic: have you read a book by Richard Dawkins? Edited January 2, 2012 by Olzmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indelible Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I suspect it's most likely due to the passion that he (as well as many of us) have towards the game and our wanting to see it a success. Cut him a break. Sadly, and regardless of his intent, it is still - in my opinion and based on my own observation - a degree of misrepresentation. I do not and will never accept that misrepresenting the facts on the ground is a valid way to inspire change "for the better". I would rather the objective problem be put forward in a clear and concise way than have the details flagrantly and flamboyantly dramatised for the purposes of notice. So no, I won't cut him a break but only because I fear the way he's going about the agenda at hand, one that I think every reasonably intelligent person in this thread agrees on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumahawk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 A simple test: Player has decided to use Retaliation against a boss because it triggers an increase in defensive abilities. In some cases this split second decision can mean the difference between a wipe or victory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbFgyeRFbdo&context=C3d50270ADOEgsToPDskJYu1y-3uG_uWyCstMK7nMz Is this working as intended? If no, then there is a fundamental issue at play here and no one can argue it wouldn't affect game play or functionality. It even seems that it's causing the NPC to stop taking action (possibly exploitable). It's not just a skill or player latency issue. It happens all of the time to me on both Operative when healing, and Juggernaut when attacking. Why is there a debate as to the merits of the complaint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 The irony of your point here should not be lost on someone as advanced as you seem to be. At no point have I said you were WRONG. What I have said, very carefully, is that the problem you make out is a gross inflation of the problem that exists. I'm entirely open to the idea that I may be missing something, however through my own experience as well as the experience of my guild mates (some of which are former members of guilds such as Method, Apathy, Third Realm Alliance, etc (including myself) as well as former World Champion FPS players) the problem ISN'T as pronounced as you make out and the detrimental impact it is having on the player base ISN'T as "doom and gloom" as you peddle. We've discussed it endlessly in person, on TS, on our forums, and we emphatically disagree with your exaggerations. You may continue prostrating now. Ok, if you disagree with the exaggeration or the formatting/wording/presentation... that is fine and I have absolutely no care for that. All that matters is that this "objective" problem gets resolved... I "personally" believe this to be a heavy enough problem, so much so that I don't see anything as exaggeration. This issue in my view is the reason Rift/LotRO and any other Post-WoW MMO didn't achieve their full potential and successes. Furthermore I believe this to be the #1 reason why WoW is at the point that it is. In this case, I don't see it as an exaggeration... So, as long as you recognize the issue, I am perfectly fine with you. If you believe that there is "no issue" or that "only some have it and you do not" then we are at a point of disagreement to which no parallel can be drawn. You might as well declare yourself "Israel" at which point I'll be forced to be "Iran". Please don't force that on me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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