Can't use Inf-Shadow effectively

[DarthMarcin]

I'm currently at level 20 and had no problem with soloing elites and 2+ heroics. But now I'm on Taris and I met those bloodthirsty ragkhouls wandering in packs with smaller ones and I can't beat them. I start to think I picked wrong class...

[Morrtin]

Are you able to beet on group? Or is this already a problem for you? If you can defeat one group then make sure that you wait until your debuff runs out. This debuff lowers your armor as far as i can remember.

[Kitru]

Infiltration is not the best tree for soloing because it is the squishiest of the 3 trees and requires the use of a tank pet to get the most out of everything. It is generally considered to be the best tree for PvP, however.

 

My questions for you would be what exactly your spec looks like at the moment, what gear you've got on your companion, and what exactly you are attempting to do with your rotation?

 

Your spec should look like this at the moment. Misdirection is of questionable value to me since the bonus to move speed doesn't stack with Sprint and additional levels of stealth aren't that valuable when you get Blackout. At a later time, keep in mind Vigor is largely worthless because it only provides 10 additional Force for any specific fight which amounts to 1.2 seconds of "free" regen, even over a fight lasting 3 minutes. Definitely not a worthwhile expenditure.

 

Qyzen, which is the companion you should be using, should be decked out largely in the gear that quests make available to him. He should be covered head to toe and armed with gear that has Aim and Defense on it. If you have given him anything with Strength, you are doing him a disservice. Aim is his primary stat: it augments his Tech *and* Melee abilities while Str only augments his Melee.

 

At your current level, your rotation should be quite simple if you follow the Shadow Golden Rule: don't use any of your attacks except for Double Strike or Force Breach unless it comes from a talent or you have a talent that explicitly tells you to use it *and then only use it in the given manner*. At your level, this means that you should be opening with Force Breach, spamming Double Strike until Find Weakness procs, at which point you use Shadow Strike, and then resume Double Striking until Force Breach is off of CD or you get another Find Weakness proc. If you are using Shadow Strike without Find Weakness, you're using up way too much Force to do only marginally more damage than Double Strike, which is a bad thing because it means you'll have to use Saber Strike more often since you'll spend so much time out of Force.

 

As you get higher in level, you'll get more talents that let you use more abilities while following the Shadowy Rule of Shadows. Circling Shadows is the nearest and what I recommend spending your next 2 skill points on. Half price Projects are *amazing*, though remember to only use it when you have 2 stacks of Circling Shadows (i.e. just used Double Strike twice). Clairvoyant Strike functionally replaces Double Strike when you hit 40. Rejoice in the awesomeness.

 

When following The Rule, please realize that it only applies to the attacks you use all the time (e.g. don't come with their own significant limitations on use like long CDs or hp requirements). Spinning Strike, Tumult, Force Stun, and many of your other abilities aren't covered by it because you should be able to adjudicate proper use of those abilities on your own as directed by the very tenets of the power in question.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Kitru

[TheCynic]

I have to disagree slightly with Kitru, at that level with those groups I found it VERY useful to still use Force Wave, firstly it gets them off of you and secondly as you gain a few levels force wave will kill off a few of the smaller ones.

 

Everything else is DEAD on, make sure Mr. Lizard has some good equipment, on Taris you can buy him a new weapon, make sure you have some good equipment. You should have left Corusscant with new pants for you and Lizzy from the commendation vendor.

 

Sneak in for the force regen then breech and double strike till things die, if find weakness procs get behind a mob and shove your saber through his back.

 

And yes watch that debuff on BOTH you and Mr. Lizard, it means some down time but its that or downtime due to getting killed.

[Zuraki]

In terms of the comments about Misdirection and Blackout:

 

I have to say, those 3 points are amazing once you get into the mid to late 20s and beyond. I never use blackout in stealth, since once specced its greater for longer fights to recover force if you ever get starved, which tends to happen when soloing Gold star mobs.

 

Also, no matter what type of mobs they are, I use Mind Maze (sap) on the strongest in any group. It helps a lot, just make sure to turn Qyzen's AOE abilites off of auto.

 

Once you get your companion from Nar Shadaa, they will get a seduce ability that makes most of my fights one on one in PVE. Sap one, he mezz's another, I kill the third, or third and fourth. I don't think it's slowed me down one bit, and my downtime is very very low.

[TheCynic]

.....

 

Also, no matter what type of mobs they are, I use Mind Maze (sap) on the strongest in any group......

 

THIS!

 

I had never played a class with CC before(that worked) and had ignored Mind Maze until I got to Nar Shaddarr and got my butt kicked every 3 steps to the point where I logged off and watched SeaQuest.

 

When I logged back in I looked over everything and started to use Mind Maze on EVERY fight, now its the second thing I press before engaging, the 1st being stealth.

 

Even on groups of all weak/std mobs I do it, cause hey why not

[Thompsons]

In terms of the comments about Misdirection and Blackout:

 

.... Also, no matter what type of mobs they are, I use Mind Maze (sap) on the strongest in any group. It helps a lot, just make sure to turn Qyzen's AOE abilites off of auto.

 

True, but remember that Force Wave can awaken the target, too. So you can find yourself in a situation where you are surrounded by weak enemies where force wave would really help, but can't without a penalty.

[Zuraki]

Honestly, the only time I use Force Wave now is in PVP, and that is a lot too. I like having two forms of CC on two targets and just focusing one down at a time. No downtime.

[Thompsons]

Honestly, the only time I use Force Wave now is in PVP, and that is a lot too. I like having two forms of CC on two targets and just focusing one down at a time. No downtime.

 

Fair enough, Zuraki, but the OP's question was about soloing. Sounds like your advice is to not use force wave in soloing. That's fine, but needed to be said.

[Zuraki]

Well, I mean its fine if you don't want to use CC, but if you're sapping and using Theran's mezz, aoe is just silly. And its a good habit to get into once the Flashpoints get harder and you have to CC mobs. Using a large AOE ability will break it and cause a wipe. Its great in the beginning, but its a good habit to have if you are looking to do Flashpoints past level 25.

[Thompsons]

Well, I mean its fine if you don't want to use CC, but if you're sapping and using Theran's mezz, aoe is just silly. And its a good habit to get into once the Flashpoints get harder and you have to CC mobs. Using a large AOE ability will break it and cause a wipe. Its great in the beginning, but its a good habit to have if you are looking to do Flashpoints past level 25.

 

Agreed, and particularly relevant to the OP. Wave won't help the poster beat those swarms when there's a big enemy in there too, but Mind Maze will.

[PulseXXX]

I know exactly the mobs your talking about, and I had your same problem. Couple things;

 

- My companion was under geared

- I was in Shadow Technique

 

I was able to kill the mob without gearing my companion up, but following that encounter I made sure to fully equip my companion...haven't had too many issues since then.

 

In order to kill the mob, I had to go into Combat Technique for the extra survivability and the extra aggro. I started by sending in my companion, then started attacking the mob from behind. As my companion started to drop below 50, I eventually gained aggro and was able to soak up some damage. Companion eventually taunted and aggro was off me...basically I was able to pass aggro back and forth so that both characters were dpsing as much as possible

[Kediec]

Currently a lvl 23 Shadow on Taris - Infiltration spec and i'm not having any difficulty on there at all .

 

Now i use the ship companion :- C2-N2 , which isn't your normal run of the mill questing pal i must admit .

How-ever , his healing ( while not fantastic ) , is plentiful enough to keep me in the 50% health mark against those groups you mention . Just make sure he has equipment to increase his survivability , and set him in healing stance ( 5% increase to healing , 25% decrease in healing cast times , 25% reduction in healing threat generation ) .

 

Most of the time i don't even bother using Mind Maze .

 

I've been using C2-N2 exclusively since i got him on all my missions simply for his healing .

 

[edit] Forgot to add , that i also use Combat Technique for those type of encounters .

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kediec

[asifakbarali]

to kill rakghouls.

 

1. use qyzen

2. jump in mid of five and use Force Wave

3. kill the weakest first.

4. after force wave use double strike / or use project to stun.

5. gg

 

i dont dont last hit any mob. i let qyzen have that honor. (or m lazy)

 

one more great easy tip.

 

let qyzen tank everything, lose his hp. die. let him take the brunt. see that u only dps.

that is because.

if qyzen has low hp and you dont want to waste your time. just dismiss him and and resummon him. fully healed brand new and "buffed" qyzen in front of you for reuse.

 

i have no downtime, i use shadow technique. ss and project after teh buff. force breach. also for silver mobs and up use the Force potency. it affects Force Breach. project and Telek.

 

i always start with stealth, but i open with ss, that can itself kill a rakghoul sometimes

after all this mind maze is overkill

 

and use this for level

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_consular/shadow/#::e4fe3f2e3fe5f3dfef2ef15ef14

Edited December 31, 2011 by asifakbarali

[DarthMarcin]

Thank you for all your hints and advices. I'll try them all. I know already that one of my mistakes was giving Qyzen strength based equipment instead of aim based.

I also started to pay more attention to find weakness buff and using Shadow strike only when it is effective.

[Neodeity]

I would have to agree with most everyone on this forum. I do have one tip for your companion. If you PvP a lot, as much as I do, you will cap at 1000 warzone credits very often. I decided that instead of capping or wasting them on consumables, I decked out Qyzen with the best gear I could find. Of course, once you get around 25-27 you will start to find better gear. However, seeing as you are still around 20, this will help you dramatically as they make some stellar aim gear at the PvP vendor.

[DarthMarcin]

I also started to pay more attention to find weakness buff and using Shadow strike only when it is effective.

 

With new Qyzen's equpmnent and careful use of buffed strikes Infiltrator became more fun. I still have trouble with bigger groups so I'm starting to think maybe Inf is not my playstyle and I should ty Kinetic instead. Is kinetic effective around lvl 22 or maybe I should wait a couple of levels with respec?

Im not playing pvp, I have no chance with all those lvl50

[RobNightfall]

One trick I've found useful is to PvE with combat technique up and shield generator equipped even though I'm infiltration specced. Your damage is lessened but your survivability increases.

[DarthMarcin]

This is bulid I'm going to try with my Kinetc Shadow.

[Kitru]

This is bulid I'm going to try with my Kinetc Shadow.

 

The loss of Slow Time for Force in Balance is really going to hurt you, and only a single point in Harnessed Shadows isn't going to really help you all that often. Since PA only has a chance to proc on any Double Strike use, you're compounding your woes by making it very likely to lose Harnessed Shadows stacks before you every get up to 3 (which is where the talent actually becomes useful). Similarly, Force in Balance, on its own, is not that devastating. The real reason to go with the Kin/Bal hybrid is for Force Strike and the ability to make exceptional use of Mind Crush as a tank. You'll also want Mind Over Matter, as opposed to Nerve Wracking since, if you didn't know, Spinning Kick only lasts 2 seconds (and neither of the given abilities work at all on boss entities that are immune to stuns and incapacitate effects) and 3% additional damage for that short of a duration is functionally worthless. The additional 2 seconds of Force/Tech immunity, however, is *incredibly* useful.

 

If you insist on going the Kin/Bal hybrid path (it's not going to be the *optimal* tank spec since the self healing from Balance are more than outweighed by the decreasing in incoming damage from Slow Time), I would use this spec tweaked in the ways I recommended.

[Timberley]

Ah Kitru, making the Jedi Shadow forum a really useful place to be. I've lost count of the number of times I've read threads here and found one of your replies has helped immensely.

 

I've picked an Infiltration specced Shadow as well, and I do wonder if I'm suffering because of something I'm doing wrong.

 

Currently, I'm a Level 26 on Tatooine, trying to do the Czerka quest (recover the records). All goes well until I have to take on the 3 guys at the end in the abandoned base. Without fail I end up getting destroyed by them. Currently I'm running with Theran as the companion in this instance, so would it be advisable to switch to Qyzen for the encounter? Also, I spend most of my time in Force Technique, as for some reason the tier including Shadow Technique hasn't unlocked. Would it be better to switch to Combat Technique? Also, is Force Stun broken by damage, i.e. if I hit someone with a Breach, then a Stun, then start smacking them with Double Strike, does it break the stun and allow the enemy to resume smacking me?

 

At the moment, my tree looks like this: TORHead Link.

 

Mostly I Breach someone, Stun them, Double Strike a few times, Shadow Strike (if I see Find Weakness on the bar), Breach again (if it's gone off the enemy's bar), and generally Double Strike them a lot, with occasional Projects. If I see them activating an ability I do try and get in with a Mind Snap, but sometimes I find it doesn't go off (but then I do find that I sometimes get a disconnect between me hitting a keybind and the ability going off - even without cooldowns to get in the way).

 

Tim

 

P.S. I am a bit new to MMOs, so half the jargon I'm picking up as I go along, so I don't use a lot of it. (I didn't know what a proc was until last week!)

[Malleable]

The loss of Slow Time for Force in Balance is really going to hurt you, ... Similarly, Force in Balance, on its own, is not that devastating.

 

Hmmm. I was thinking of losing Slow Time for FIB myself. Baseline FIB should be doing twice what Slow Time does (for three targets). I can see that the healing from FIB wont be that great compared to damage reduction of ST, but ST is still only 5% - which seems miniscule to me.

 

And the loss of Harnessed Shadows is only for long fights, right? Since you have a cooldown of 15s between Projects?

 

Thanks,

Mal

[Kitru]

Ah Kitru, making the Jedi Shadow forum a really useful place to be.

 

The information in my brain just wants to be free.

 

I've picked an Infiltration specced Shadow as well, and I do wonder if I'm suffering because of something I'm doing wrong.

 

Looking at your spec, I can tell you right off the bat that you are. The reason you haven't seen Shadow Technique unlock is that you haven't spent enough points in Infiltration in order to get access to it. In order gain access to the third tier of any specific talent tree, you have to spend 10 points in that applicable tree. Spending points in other trees does nothing to advance you further along any other tree. The number of points you must spend to get up to the next tier (and each further tier) increases by 5 for each tier so, overall, you must spend 5 points in a tree to access its second tier, 10 points for its third tier, 15 points for its 4th tier, 20 points for its 5th tier, 25 points for its 6th tier, and 30 points to get to the 7th tier.

 

At 26, your spec should look like this. If you want to respec, there is a guy in the bottom right of the class trainer section in the Republic Fleet. He is called the "Skill Mentor". He will reset all of your skill points, allowing you to reallocate the entire sum. The first time you use him he is free, but each additional time you use him his price goes up.

 

Other than your spec, it seems like you are playing largely appropriately.

 

Also, is Force Stun broken by damage, i.e. if I hit someone with a Breach, then a Stun, then start smacking them with Double Strike, does it break the stun and allow the enemy to resume smacking me?

 

No, Force Stun is a stun, not an incapacitate. Low Slash and Mind Maze are incapacitates and break on damage taken. It may seem like Force Stun break on damage dealt, but that's more due to its short duration and your perceptions.

[Kitru]

Hmmm. I was thinking of losing Slow Time for FIB myself. Baseline FIB should be doing twice what Slow Time does (for three targets).

 

FiB only hits 3 targets compared to Slow Time's 5. With the "high threat" modifier, Slow Time and FiB generate the same amount of threat on a single target, so, from an ST tanking perspective, they are equal. From an AoE tanking perspective (which is an area that Shadows are already painfully weak in assuming you use Slow Time *instead* of the worse FiB) Slow Time is definitely better.

 

As for the survivability benefits, FiB only heals you for 50 damage per target hit every 15 seconds. Slow Time reduces incoming damage by 5%. In order for FiB to be the better survivability option, you would need to take only 1000 damage over the course of 15 seconds against a single target. At level 50, you're likely to take that much damage in the initial volley.

 

Also, realize that Slow Time reduces damage the target deals to *anyone*, meaning your allies take less damage from AoEs and, if you are off tanking, the main tank takes less damage.

 

And the loss of Harnessed Shadows is only for long fights, right? Since you have a cooldown of 15s between Projects?

 

Not really. Project has a 6 sec CD (and Particle Acceleration procs immediately finish it), so, if you could generate enough Force, you could use Harnessed Shadows every 20 seconds or so. The issue with a single point of Harnessed Shadows is that, since the buff that Harnessed Shadows provides only lasts about 15 seconds and you need to apply another stack of it in order to refresh that, you will have an *exceptionally* hard time getting to the all important 3 stacks in order to get the real benefit (the self heal) from it because you cannot guarantee that a Project will actually generate a stack. Since you can't guarantee a stack, a chain of bad luck can completely reset your Harnessed Shadows stacks, rendered all of that work largely wasted.

 

Suffice it to say, from a theoretical and anecdotal perspective, 1 point in Harnessed Shadows is *not* worth it: you should either not take it or put both points into it. A single point in it is largely wasted.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Kitru

[Timberley]

 

At 26, your spec should look like this. If you want to respec, there is a guy in the bottom right of the class trainer section in the Republic Fleet. He is called the "Skill Mentor". He will reset all of your skill points, allowing you to reallocate the entire sum. The first time you use him he is free, but each additional time you use him his price goes up.

 

No, Force Stun is a stun, not an incapacitate. Low Slash and Mind Maze are incapacitates and break on damage taken. It may seem like Force Stun break on damage dealt, but that's more due to its short duration and your perceptions.

 

Thank you for this. I'm off to respec at the Fleet!

 

Tim