What happened to the SWTOR I once loved? (Cue the song "Change" by Deftones)

[Lhancelot]

Backstory and how it began!

 

I became acquainted with SWTOR when it was just a brand new game many years ago. I don't even recall how I found it, I believe it to be a matter of just always watching for the next big MMO then trying them when they came out. I think I was just newly off WAR, and/or playing p99 EQ1 EMU server when I came to SWTOR.

 

I remember my first experience I was amazed at all the voice acting. I found the starting dungeons neat and fun. They had special loots and Hammer Station, BT, Athiss were particularly fun for me.

 

I found the higher level FPs as I progressed and the game added updates not as fun. They were time consuming for me, and I found my eyelids growing heavy anytime I was in a FP that took longer than 30 mins. The cut-scenes in FPs did not engage me anymore they just lengthened my imprisonment in the FP and I was at the whim of storymoders or new players who wanted to experience every nuance of the cut-scenes they never seen before or that they loved so much they had to see it again and again and again. This made me less interested in doing FPs.

 

This lead me to begin tailoring my gameplay to do activities I personally enjoyed. I was learning the PVE wasn't my cup of tea!

 

I tried the GSF it sucked to me.

 

It was cute, reminded me of a game on my dad's old Commodore 64 or TI99 PC from the 80s. I considered grinding for the rare gear sets and pieces that were rewarded with GSF over the years but never could force myself to do it.

 

I tried FPs but came to understand I only liked short FPs. The long ones were just too time consuming and boring for me.

 

OPs? No way! If I barely could muster the fortitude to do a 30 min FP, OPs were out of the question. I never been a big time PVE raider on any game in the past and the PVE on SWTOR failed to change my perspective when it came to PVE on a MMO. Really uninspiring, the PVE on this game.

 

So over time, my activities I did enjoy filtered down to PVP, playing the GTN, crafting, and dressing my toons up in assorted outfits.

 

 

THINGS THAT WERE FUN WHEN I BEGAN SWTOR!

 

 

1. PVP.

 

Not perfect. Always a class or two that were shoulders above the others, and usually multiple specs will be crap and avoided due to gimpy performance against other classes. But despite the flaws, PVP was fast, every situation could be different, it was re-playable content for me. I never grew totally bored with PVP!

 

 

2. Space Barbie!

 

In the beginning Space Barbie was far more challenging. We lacked all the ways to save so many different outfits, we had to actually wear the gear outfit with it modded for the one we wanted to be seen in. There was no "save" outfits.

 

So this feature really was elaborated on BW did this wonderfully well in my opinion!

 

The only thing I did not like with Space Barbie was when they much later removed the option to dye specific pieces of armors that couldn't be modded, like a lvl 5 green chest. You could dye these odd pieces and come up with some unique graphic designs but for some reason they removed dye options with some of the basic/primitive armors in the game removing this feature/option.

 

 

3. GTN and players market!

 

I used to find this fun! I'd save old rare armor to sell later, or I'd watch for rare specialized loots even farming low level named mobs to get special pistols and other ultra rare moddable weapons or armors to sell these items were very lucrative!

 

This changed because BW decided to go with a CM that basically sells everything appearance-wise in the game and they removed so many items when they added level sync to the zones. When all loot tables became tier-related, not location related an awful change was created for loot, and for the FPs themselves. They lost their individual specialized loots and a fun factor was lost here.

 

Basically I think BW has tried to corner every facet of the game money-wise and designed it so a lot of the customizations you might want to add to your character is going to have to go through the Cartel Market. That means you buy CC and buy the pixels directly, or use credits to buy the items from players who bought the item from the CM and then sold it on the GTN. Obviously they put a lot of time and thought into how they can milk as much money from the players as possible.

 

 

 

4. Crafting.

 

This was never my favorite activity on SWTOR, but you know what it was not bad! It was decent enough that I found it worthwhile to craft on all my toons.

 

I could craft gear sets that were old past sets no longer available by reverse engineering stuff or getting recipes off the GTN that people had somehow gotten, I could sell many items for appearance purposes and I could craft useful items like stat boost stims.

 

Overall, I found crafting successful in that it was not awful to do it, it was lucrative, and it was useful. I'd say crafting was even fun at one point. It was never cutting edge or spectacular but it was simplistic in design yet very versatile.

 

Players who liked crafting their own gears for appearance or to sell were happy, players who wanted to sell craftables like stims found it useful, and early on it was very useful to craft mods and other gear pieces for our companions who needed to be individually geared at that time along with the playable character's toon.

 

Gears also mattered back then there was no level sync so you had to enter zones and FPs with the proper level of gears or you would die. Anyway, point is crafting mods was important and a part of crafting so it was useful, too.

 

 

 

THINGS CHANGED!

 

 

I just want to know what the hell happened to SWTOR? It began with so much promise, it had it's flaws but it had a personality of it's own! Now it's a level synced, shadow of its former self. Nearly every operating system in the game has progressively been made worse as game design and update changes are added to SWTOR.

 

Conquest. Gearing systems. Dungeon crawling. PVP. PVE. Crafting. Ranked PVP.

 

I mean how does a game literally go down the row making literally every feature and facet of itself worse in every way over time unless it's systematically, deliberately, calculatedly done? Why would a gaming company do that to it's own game?

 

What happened to the SWTOR I once loved? Why did you change?

[ZionHalcyon]

Things change.

 

MMOs especially.

 

You either adapt or move on.

 

All there is to it.

[DarthSpuds]

I have always argued that with (arguably) the biggest IP on the planet, and - at the time - the biggest budget for an MMORPG, and coming out of a studio with a (then) stellar reputation for story-led gaming experience that SWTOR should have been the "WOW Killer" so many people claimed it would be.

 

The ONLY reason I can think of for it never reaching that potential is because those in charge didn't want it to.

 

As we've seen in so many areas (most notably with Disney taking over the franchise) using the Star Wars IP is a license to print money.

 

So where did Bioware go wrong?

The answer stares us straight in the face.

They think they know better than us what we want. They always have thought that. And they've pretty much ALWAYS been wrong.

 

From "RNG is exciting" to "making Conquest more inclusive and more rewarding for all" and on to the "6.0 Crafting improvements" Bioware Austin are so out of touch, and rely so heavily on what have to be dysfunctional metrics, that they repeatedly Promise A and invariably deliver Not-A,

 

RNG wasn't exciting - it was frustrating, boring, lazy.

Conquest was made less inclusive, and less rewarding.

6.0 Crafting was as far from an improvement as it was possible to get and still be in the same galaxy.

 

Far too often the Lead Producer focuses on "what they want" and not "what the players want".

Keith is focusing on PvP and End-Game content that even Bioware have admitted only attract only a tiny fraction of the player-base.

But Keith likes it, so we get to suffer through it.

 

Until Bioware, or someone above them, puts in place a Lead Producer that engages with and ACTUALLY LISTENS to the Player-Base nothing will change.

 

It should be almost impossible for this game to fail - yet Bioware are managing exactly that with barely any effort.

 

All The Best

[lukeisjedi]

I played at launch and yes things have changed but IMO most of is is good. I'm not saying you're wrong but the game I loved is still very much here.

[Lhancelot]

Things change.

 

MMOs especially.

 

You either adapt or move on.

 

All there is to it.

 

Truth. ^

 

I moved on from the game, instead I play the forums now.

 

I can't say I love the forums. I don't spend as much time here as I did in the game when I used to PVP, but hey! At least my BW money enables me to still be a part of this wonderful community and do something I still like to do.

 

There's some simple truth to that statement though.

 

I know that, I been gaming since EQ1 1999-2000. Still doesn't make it easier to not feel immense disappointment and sadness that the game no longer does it for me like it used to.

 

It's kind of like THC. If you do too much of the THC, you end up building a tolerance to it's effect. Eventually you need to take a "T-Break" which after just a short period of time you can find yourself enjoying all the effects again.

 

I have taken many breaks from SWTOR, it just appears to have gotten to the point where the breaks no longer seem to refresh the effect. I am now in search for a new dopamine dumper, I guess.

[Lhancelot]

I have always argued that with (arguably) the biggest IP on the planet, and - at the time - the biggest budget for an MMORPG, and coming out of a studio with a (then) stellar reputation for story-led gaming experience that SWTOR should have been the "WOW Killer" so many people claimed it would be.

 

The ONLY reason I can think of for it never reaching that potential is because those in charge didn't want it to.

 

As we've seen in so many areas (most notably with Disney taking over the franchise) using the Star Wars IP is a license to print money.

 

So where did Bioware go wrong?

The answer stares us straight in the face.

They think they know better than us what we want. They always have thought that. And they've pretty much ALWAYS been wrong.

 

From "RNG is exciting" to "making Conquest more inclusive and more rewarding for all" and on to the "6.0 Crafting improvements" Bioware Austin are so out of touch, and rely so heavily on what have to be dysfunctional metrics, that they repeatedly Promise A and invariably deliver Not-A,

 

RNG wasn't exciting - it was frustrating, boring, lazy.

Conquest was made less inclusive, and less rewarding.

6.0 Crafting was as far from an improvement as it was possible to get and still be in the same galaxy.

 

Far too often the Lead Producer focuses on "what they want" and not "what the players want".

Keith is focusing on PvP and End-Game content that even Bioware have admitted only attract only a tiny fraction of the player-base.

But Keith likes it, so we get to suffer through it.

 

Until Bioware, or someone above them, puts in place a Lead Producer that engages with and ACTUALLY LISTENS to the Player-Base nothing will change.

 

It should be almost impossible for this game to fail - yet Bioware are managing exactly that with barely any effort.

 

All The Best

 

What's so interesting is how the results of their changes have systematically dropped subs... I mean you can correlate specific updates directly with lower sub counts so it's not hard to see where they guessed wrong lol.

 

But guess what! Instead of using that information and not making the same mistake in the next update, they buckle down on the bad update changes, and just dump more garbage on top of that!

 

It's the most irresponsible handling of a major IP for a game I can think of. And their communication policy, or lack of one is really that put the icing on the turd cake.

[Lhancelot]

I played at launch and yes things have changed but IMO most of is is good. I'm not saying you're wrong but the game I loved is still very much here.

 

Maybe you partake in activities that were not altered as much, or maybe you focus on parts of the game that actually have improved.

 

I would say they did a great job with their outfit customization. It's probably the only thing I still really enjoy on this game.

 

Sadly it's attached directly to the CM of course, but w/e.

 

I don't hate the CM or when a game company uses a cash shop unless they put none of that back into the game and in my opinion I feel they did not properly compensate this game with resources since launch.

 

They have made plenty of money via the CM, but you'd never know it if you judged by the development of the game since launch.

 

You also may simply enjoy things I do not it's not complicated why we all have different opinions on the state of SWTOR. I only can say I wish I still felt the same as I did in years back.

[Spoloma]

Eh, good times. SWTOR was the first RPG I played… It was a bit frustrating to learn loot and RPG mechanics, but the game had seemingly so much content, superb voice acting and, yes, FPs. I actually had fun exploring locations and manually looking for datacrons, grinding champion-bosses for rare, purple pieces of armor (still wearing one).

Then there always were “No man’s sand” PVP area and Ilum, which was always fun, even despite regularly lagging like **** there.

 

All of that effectively disappeared with server merges, mind-boggling class changes, level sync…

It's really sad to see the game, with such potential, go down the drain...

[ZionHalcyon]

What's so interesting is how the results of their changes have systematically dropped subs... I mean you can correlate specific updates directly with lower sub counts so it's not hard to see where they guessed wrong lol.

 

But guess what! Instead of using that information and not making the same mistake in the next update, they buckle down on the bad update changes, and just dump more garbage on top of that!

 

It's the most irresponsible handling of a major IP for a game I can think of. And their communication policy, or lack of one is really that put the icing on the turd cake.

 

I strongly recommend in the off topic forum (maybe it was even you who posted it? I can't remember if it was), there was a beta tester who had a lot of insider knowledge about SWTOR. Eric denied he ever worked for bioware, but legally, he could say that since most testers are contractors and therefore employees of whomever contracted them.

 

Anyway, I forgot the guy's name, but essentially, he came right out and said that

 

A) BioWare never originally wanted SWTOR to be an MMO - it was meant to be like KOTOR but the MMO part was forced on them by EA.

B) BioWare originally wanted it to be 2 stories; Jedi and Sith (likely Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight stories), with what happened with the Eternal Throne being what they originally conceived.

C) BioWare up front made the decision that they were ok if people left the game and came back later when there was content - the implication is because they really never wanted to do an MMO in the first place, they never felt up for trying to sustain it like a proper MMO. That decision was entirely BioWare's and no one elses.

 

Once you get that all put together, it really makes sense why the game never reached its potential - you had a company developing for it that never believed in it in the first place, to the point where they were more than happy to kill off the most popular parts so that they wouldn't have to try to keep the "mmo thing" going, the poor babies!

[DreadtechSavant]

It's never easy when a game or indeed anything you enjoy changes. Unfortunately it is a case of embrace the change or move on. Or just take a brake for a few months as I did. Sometimes a few weeks or months away can put things in perspective and then see if leaving altogether is better than whats happening in game, it's far better to take time away than leave out of anger as many other player have. Or a least claim that's why they are quitting. There are always going to be changes that each and everyone of us don't like, It is worth remembering that just because there something that you yourself may not like other players will. Using vocabulary such as "once loved" tells me you need to take a brake.

[Lhancelot]

I strongly recommend in the off topic forum (maybe it was even you who posted it? I can't remember if it was), there was a beta tester who had a lot of insider knowledge about SWTOR. Eric denied he ever worked for bioware, but legally, he could say that since most testers are contractors and therefore employees of whomever contracted them.

 

Anyway, I forgot the guy's name, but essentially, he came right out and said that

 

A) BioWare never originally wanted SWTOR to be an MMO - it was meant to be like KOTOR but the MMO part was forced on them by EA.

B) BioWare originally wanted it to be 2 stories; Jedi and Sith (likely Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight stories), with what happened with the Eternal Throne being what they originally conceived.

C) BioWare up front made the decision that they were ok if people left the game and came back later when there was content - the implication is because they really never wanted to do an MMO in the first place, they never felt up for trying to sustain it like a proper MMO. That decision was entirely BioWare's and no one elses.

 

Once you get that all put together, it really makes sense why the game never reached its potential - you had a company developing for it that never believed in it in the first place, to the point where they were more than happy to kill off the most popular parts so that they wouldn't have to try to keep the "mmo thing" going, the poor babies!

 

Yes, that was Jeff Nyman or Kryptonomic on the forums. Really an eloquent writer; I always enjoyed reading his explanations when he posted on the forums here that short time.

 

This may get taken down by the SWTOR team or perhaps it belongs more in "Off Topic." Not sure. I was originally going to post this here as a thread, but instead I posted this article:

 

A SWTOR Context

 

Obviously there is a lot of sentiment around the game, it's current development, and it's possible future. I've found in a few of these conversations that people do appreciate a bit of context. Historical context is often the best of all. So that's what the above is.

 

It's not White Knight content; it's not so called "Hater" content. It simply is what it is: providing some context, at least from one person's point of view. If curious, I also have some posts on SWTOR regarding testing. None of this reveals any internal details of the current team nor any details of internal operations, both now and in the past.

 

The definitive story on SWTOR will likely be published at some later date. And it certainly won't be by me.

[ZionHalcyon]

Yes, that was Jeff Nyman or Kryptonomic on the forums. Really an eloquent writer; I always enjoyed reading his explanations when he posted on the forums here that short time.

 

it's kind of funny to me that he said the definitive story wouldn't be written by him on SWTOR.

 

Yet he filled in such gaps as to why the game was never as Good as it could have been and why certain suspect decisions were made by BioWare, that it may have well have been the definitive story because he brought to light a lot of things that make total sense now, yet fly completely in the face of convention when a gaming company sets out to do an MMO.

[lukeisjedi]

Maybe you partake in activities that were not altered as much, or maybe you focus on parts of the game that actually have improved.

 

I would say they did a great job with their outfit customization. It's probably the only thing I still really enjoy on this game.

 

Sadly it's attached directly to the CM of course, but w/e.

 

I don't hate the CM or when a game company uses a cash shop unless they put none of that back into the game and in my opinion I feel they did not properly compensate this game with resources since launch.

 

They have made plenty of money via the CM, but you'd never know it if you judged by the development of the game since launch.

 

You also may simply enjoy things I do not it's not complicated why we all have different opinions on the state of SWTOR. I only can say I wish I still felt the same as I did in years back.

 

True enough. Personally I think it's still got a few years left and I cant wait for more story to be added.

[XxHazenxX]

Wall of text incoming

Let me preface by saying this is coming from someone who has subbed (and is still subbed) since launch and participated in multiple closed betas putting thousands of hours into this game.

 

Honestly IMO, the game started off mediocre and just degraded slowly over time more and more. Yes, there were specific features and things added or bits of content that were beneficial to the game experience through the years, but looking back on the history of the game, it was always me looking at the positives of the game on one hand through rose-tinted glasses but always waiting for "things to get better" at the same time. What it came down to was I just didn't agree with the kind of game and core systems they went with.

 

Over-hype in the years leading up to launch didn't help either, obviously, but I was always in "Well maybe the next big update will make the game better" mode update after update yet always feeling slightly disappointed with everything that was added. Turns out it was just the game design itself from the world/map design to the combat to the crafting to the closed off worlds and lack of true exploration. I expected more from a Star Wars MMO with a $300 million budget (which at the time I think was the highest budget for a video game ever). I wanted to live in a Star Wars universe... not necessarily a Star Wars Galaxies 2.0, but something that would do Star Wars justice (like SWG did). The 8 class stories are great of course (some way better than others), but that's where it stops for me. Everything else is, and has always been, sub par in almost every way... including performance thanks to an engine that was already outdated when they built the game on it.

 

I honestly wish they would have just made a KotOR III, and I thought the same when this game got announced, but the original dev team at the time did such a good job of marketing and hyping this game with their slow trickle of information that it didn't take me long to get fully on board with the idea of a story-based KotOR MMO, but now I wish they just would have just made KotOR III. I still to this day play through KotOR I and II after God knows how many playthroughs, yet I struggle to play any of the TOR class stories (let alone the expansions) more than once even though the class stories are this game's pinnacle.

 

I'm at the point, even though I play occasionally, where I wish the game would just close and another Star Wars MMO can go into development and hopefully be open-world and somewhat player-driven at least. The only thing that has really kept me here this whole time is Star Wars itself. Had the game not had a Star Wars skin, I would have MAYBE tried it when it went F2P and dropped it soon after. This game should be at the top of any MMO chart, but it's not... Not even with the Star Wars name behind it. That tells me a lot, and it tells me that poor decisions have plagued this game since the beginning of development, and that's really unfortunate. This game's history is akin to the new sequel trilogy... so many missed opportunities and bad choices. It just could have been so much more.

Edited March 6, 2020 by XxHazenxX

[Ahwassa]

Yes this game could be so much better BUT it could also be so much worse.

The story and characters are engaging and the dialogue and decisions you can make are great.

The classes are distinct and boss fights with phases are interesting.

There are worse games with better funding imo.

 

Yes it deserves more funding and better management and communication.

And more content and faster balance and more pvp maps.

And more character customisation and a big expansion etc.

 

I´m happy with what the game is - it could be a beautifull soulless borefest like ESO.

Or a grinding dressup game like most other MMOs (Blade & Soul anyone?).

[XxHazenxX]

Yes this game could be so much better BUT it could also be so much worse.

The story and characters are engaging and the dialogue and decisions you can make are great.

The classes are distinct and boss fights with phases are interesting.

There are worse games with better funding imo.

 

Yes it deserves more funding and better management and communication.

And more content and faster balance and more pvp maps.

And more character customisation and a big expansion etc.

 

I´m happy with what the game is - it could be a beautifull soulless borefest like ESO.

Or a grinding dressup game like most other MMOs (Blade & Soul anyone?).

 

I would have actually preferred it to be a lot more like ESO for a lot of reasons honestly. There's a reason ESO is considered one of the best and most populated MMOs on the market today. I'm not a huge fan of their combat system, but the world design and content production rate is impeccable. If SWTOR had everything from ESO (with a new combat system and open-world player housing preferably) but with SWTOR-style storytelling/cinematics, I'd subscribe for life.

[Xhelis]

Companies endeavor to be profitable and tend to do things to ensure that happens.

[DarthSpuds]

Companies endeavor to be profitable and tend to do things to ensure that happens.

 

Surely not losing 85% of the playerbase is one of the simplest ways of ensuring profitability.

 

All The Best

[ZionHalcyon]

Surely not losing 85% of the playerbase is one of the simplest ways of ensuring profitability.

 

All The Best

 

The thing is, they found a way to maintain profitability via the cartel market in order to offset the sub loss.

 

The CM makes the game profitable. And the developers don't want to really keep up an MMO.

 

Let that sink in - the developers NEVER WANTED TO MAKE AN MMO IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

So, that explains the lack of enthusiasm or desire to run SWTOR as an actual MMO, by trying to keep up with updates and making sure retention is good - NOPE. They don't care. SWTOR is apparently a boat anchor around the next of this team...

[Ahwassa]

There's a reason ESO is considered one of the best and most populated MMOs on the market today. I'm not a huge fan of their combat system, but the world design and content production rate is impeccable. If SWTOR had everything from ESO but with SWTOR-style storytelling/cinematics, I'd subscribe for life.

 

That would be great. BUT ESO can only produce content so fast because they don´t have to bother with 3 x 16 voice actors to get something done.

 

ESO is boring but it´s popular because they have great support and they advertise their game.

If EA did the same to swtor - oh boy.

[DarthSpuds]

The thing is, they found a way to maintain profitability via the cartel market in order to offset the sub loss.

 

The CM makes the game profitable. And the developers don't want to really keep up an MMO.

 

Let that sink in - the developers NEVER WANTED TO MAKE AN MMO IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

So, that explains the lack of enthusiasm or desire to run SWTOR as an actual MMO, by trying to keep up with updates and making sure retention is good - NOPE. They don't care. SWTOR is apparently a boat anchor around the next of this team...

 

For how slowly, and badly, things get done around here the game can, at best, only be very slightly marginally profitable.

 

All The Best

[Phazonfreak]

What happened was some Aliens from the planet Vergus decided to mind meld with the dev team in order to change the game along a path which you did not like. The following disappointment resonance wave is feeding their neutron collider power generator providing them with an unlimited power source to take over the alpha quadrant.

 

What happened was you changed, the company changed, the gaming industry changed.

 

Pick your favorite explanation.

[JediQuaker]

What happened was some Aliens from the planet Vergus decided to mind meld with the dev team in order to change the game along a path which you did not like. The following disappointment resonance wave is feeding their neutron collider power generator providing them with an unlimited power source to take over the alpha quadrant.

Fake news! It was really Aliens from Rusha that were meddling in Vergus's politics. 🙂

 

If SWTOR hadn't changed over the years, people would be complaining that it hadn't. 🙄

[DarthSpuds]

 

If SWTOR hadn't changed over the years, people would be complaining that it hadn't. 🙄

 

If, since launch, the Devs had only delivered "more of the same" - that is - individual, story-led, voice-acted class stories, delivering hours and hours of meaningful choice laden story then I am 100% certain there would be more overall Player Satisfaction than there is now.

 

All The Best

[XxHazenxX]

If, since launch, the Devs had only delivered "more of the same" - that is - individual, story-led, voice-acted class stories, delivering hours and hours of meaningful choice laden story then I am 100% certain there would be more overall Player Satisfaction than there is now.

 

All The Best

 

Truth ^