Crafting and Crew Skill Mission Rewards Analysis in 6.0

[Void_Singer]

if you want to know why the crafting changes are in the state that they are, you need only look at the onslaught credits screen....

 

 

5 programmers, 1 specifically a UI lead

 

I imagine the code review went something like

manager: does it compile?

programer who threw what little spare time they had at it: yeah, but...

manager: ship it

 

otherwise they might have caught on to the fact that all the grade 11 mission names and texts were just placeholder copies of lower grade missions

 

 

others have noted the core problems of quantity and time being ballooned geometrically out of proportion, and overbearing requirements for training level recipes.

 

but there are other issues too, like:

the 10x increase in flat failure rate at the top end of missions even at max level

the change in difficulty and time vastly increasing training time for crew skills

unbalanced mission product quantities (9:3:1 required, nothing like that received)

critical successes that apply randomly to a single returned type

amplifiers allowing time efficiency equal to or greater than 100% (I laughed so hard at those numbers)

a crafting material storage that's great in theory, but so bad in execution that it has it's own separate list of issues

 

On the positive side, they did finally fix the time display for craft missions (and broke the crit display worse), added mission discoveries to the rare crit drop table for the appropriate skill, and even gave us back slicing lockboxes (although we're still missing them from grade 10)

 

My conclusion is crafting changes are half baked, probably due to it being understaffed and rushed out the door as a monolithic package.... instead of the incremental and more fully integrated changes that it truly deserved. a lot of high concept coupled with a severe lack of sanity checks.

[DawnAskham]

if you want to know why the crafting changes are in the state that they are, you need only look at the onslaught credits screen....

 

 

5 programmers, 1 specifically a UI lead

 

I imagine the code review went something like

manager: does it compile?

programer who threw what little spare time they had at it: yeah, but...

manager: ship it

 

otherwise they might have caught on to the fact that all the grade 11 mission names and texts were just placeholder copies of lower grade missions

 

 

others have noted the core problems of quantity and time being ballooned geometrically out of proportion, and overbearing requirements for training level recipes.

 

but there are other issues too, like:

the 10x increase in flat failure rate at the top end of missions even at max level

the change in difficulty and time vastly increasing training time for crew skills

unbalanced mission product quantities (9:3:1 required, nothing like that received)

critical successes that apply randomly to a single returned type

amplifiers allowing time efficiency equal to or greater than 100% (I laughed so hard at those numbers)

a crafting material storage that's great in theory, but so bad in execution that it has it's own separate list of issues

 

On the positive side, they did finally fix the time display for craft missions (and broke the crit display worse), added mission discoveries to the rare crit drop table for the appropriate skill, and even gave us back slicing lockboxes (although we're still missing them from grade 10)

 

My conclusion is crafting changes are half baked, probably due to it being understaffed and rushed out the door as a monolithic package.... instead of the incremental and more fully integrated changes that it truly deserved. a lot of high concept coupled with a severe lack of sanity checks.

 

Which is sad.

 

Instead of using their limited time and budget to focus on getting a few things right - they wasted time adding needless complexity to crafting, and in the process delivered a poor quality experience to players.

 

Ironically, this will likely cost them lost revenue from frustrated players unwilling to accept this level of shoddiness, as well as waste even more of their limited development time in cleaning up this mess.

 

All of which screams very poor management.

Edited October 27, 2019 by DawnAskham

[Estelindis]

the 10x increase in flat failure rate at the top end of missions even at max level

Yeah, this is one that hasn't been talked about as much. Maybe people haven't noticed en masse yet. But I think it's honestly outrageous that a grey difficulty mission (moderate yield at skill 700) can fail, even when run by an influence 50 companion. I don't think this happened before. If it did, it was sufficiently rare that I did not notice. As it stands, it now happens sufficiently often that I do.

[giveasmile]

All I have looked at so far was MK-11 Augment slots... and if I have calculated correctly...

 

For just ONE MK-11 slot (and we need 14 per character):

20 x grade 11 SLICING material

20 x grade 11 underworld metal

40 x premium crafting material

150 x grade 11 scavenged compound

150 x grade 11 scavenged metal

120 x crafting material

 

Oh... plus 10 augmentation slot component which means you have to craft and destroy about 25 other things!

 

This does not include the augment to go inside it, or the cost to attach the augment to the shell.

 

This is all a HUGE credit sink and those returning to the game don't have hundreds of millions in credits and will end up buying cartel to sell for credits. aka Greed

[DawnAskham]

Yeah, this is one that hasn't been talked about as much. Maybe people haven't noticed en masse yet. But I think it's honestly outrageous that a grey difficulty mission (moderate yield at skill 700) can fail, even when run by an influence 50 companion. I don't think this happened before. If it did, it was sufficiently rare that I did not notice. As it stands, it now happens sufficiently often that I do.

 

But hey, we get jawa junk items on mission failures now - just fail several dozen times and we might be able to afford to purchase one material.

[JediBoadicea]

Question for BioWare. Why is there such a massive increase in materials for what is essentially the same as the Grade 9 and Grade 10 crafted item? That’s a 650% increase in materials cost to craft a Grade 11 Dye.

 

Yeah, it's the million dollar and depressing question. Thank you for doing this math, every hard-numbers example like this we can provide is good feedback, and I'm glad to see more people who care enough about the game to put in the time it takes to organize this data and forum post about it.

 

What is keeping me so disheartened is that all of the feedback we are seeing from players who are looking at the system now in live is almost verbatim the feedback we gave them in PTS. All of the same questions, the same complaints, and all of the same fixes being suggested (where "suggested" is a friendly term for changes we insisted were imperative). I mean, I guess from one perspective I can look at it is as validation that for once the community is on almost exactly the same page, but really it is mostly just disheartening because it just underscores that they could have fixed this problem from the get-go.

 

Something people have said here also echoes something I kept hammering in the PTS feedback:

 

Devs, I beg of you. Please accept that the system is broken. Whatever you are attempting to achieve by making crafting staggeringly more expensive, it is not going to be worth the cost you pay in player happiness.

 

We warned that by letting the system go to live as-is all they were going to achieve was burning months of goodwill and that they'd end up having to make most of these tweaks anyway.

 

I fully understand and sympathize with the desire to see actual data. Had the changes to the system been less extreme, I would actually have been on the studio's side on this, saying that playing it conservative and getting more data wouldn't be a bad idea. The problem is that they didn't play it conservative with the changes themselves; the changes were so enormous and so sweeping that all it took was players with actual hands-on experience with the system to look at it to see that it's completely borked.

 

I still stand by what I said in PTS feedback about how misguided it was to implement a whole slew of complexity-increasing changes all at the same time, without having gotten any actual data on what any one of those changes would do in isolation, let alone compounded. If they want to see data, I get it, but the reasonable course of action would have been to roll out changes incrementally and get data as you do upon which to base the next changes, not just flip the whole ship upside down and then get data on whether or not anyone survives.

 

And if 6.0 crafting really was all just an effort to hurt the whales sitting on credits and mats... that's just really, really unfortunate and short sighted. As others have already stated very well in this thread and other threads: you don't try to kill the whales by nuking the whole ocean. That is not the way to keep a happy player base. Or, with less metaphor: You don't kill the whales via the crafting system, because more people than just the mats-hoarders use the crafting system, and that's a completely self-destructive level of collateral damage.

 

The only thing I can think, the only justification I can force my mind to imagine and accept, is that they're banking that the compulsive end-game whales are going to be so impatient in the first three weeks of the expansion that they will blow their hoard in the race to be best first, so that by the time the studio eventually revises crafting a huge dent will have been made in those hoards. Maybe to some extent that will prove true, but I still don't think it's a good trade off for the players they might lose in that time, because A) gamers are absolutely impulsive enough to drop a game in less than a week's time when frustrated, and B) there is no way some whale sitting on a hoard of mats and doing nothing with them is actually harming the game more than it is harmed by making it impossible for players who used to enjoy solo crafting now no longer being able to access their hobby.

Edited October 28, 2019 by JediBoadicea

[Transcendent]

Yeah, this is one that hasn't been talked about as much. Maybe people haven't noticed en masse yet. But I think it's honestly outrageous that a grey difficulty mission (moderate yield at skill 700) can fail, even when run by an influence 50 companion. I don't think this happened before. If it did, it was sufficiently rare that I did not notice. As it stands, it now happens sufficiently often that I do.

 

Actually I can add to this part, because I also recorded the failure rates of running the Treasure Hunting and Slicing missions.

 

Out of the 20 runs of Rich / Bountiful missions run (total of 80 missions), it broke down to this;

 

Grade 9 Treasure Hunting missions

• 7 failed missions.
  

 

8.75% failure rate.

 

Grade 10 Treasure Hunting missions

• 3 failed missions.
  

 

3.75% failure rate.

 

Grade 11 Treasure Hunting missions

• 12 failed missions.
  

 

15% failure rate.

 

Grade 11 Slicing missions

• 12 failed missions.
  

 

15% failure rate.

 

The Grade 11 failure rate seems to be higher, as indicated by the figures above. Further muddied by the offset of getting rewarded a nominal amount of Jawa scrap (so nominal as to be worthless and will not purchase any materials of the required mission grade). My sample size is far too small to be an indicator for failure rates though, BioWare should be able to pull those figures out with their metrics to see if this is intentional or an error in coding. I'm leaning towards intentional.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Transcendent

[Balameb]

I've been reading comments since 6.0 released and I saw someone mention the devs wanted more feedbacks (from live) for crafting before doing changes. I attribute it to the lack of developers personally, they spent too much time on spoil of wars item drops and sets (and even then some of it is bugged) and didn't have enough time/resources to do the same for the crafting/materials part. 6.0 probably needed a few more weeks in the oven.

I read commens like that too, but does anyone have a link of Devs saying they need time of the system in live servers? I don't remember reading about it from the devs. Also, it would be pointless. In PTS with infinite credits and infinite rare materials it was literally impossible to test the system because of premium mat requirements.

 

I think this was the last post on the subject, and its so far from the real thing that is it looks like Eric was mocking us.

Hey all,

 

Ok here is a recap of some of the changes coming to crafting for 6.0 (beyond what you have seen on PTS).

• Dramatically reduced the credit cost of the supplemental crafting materials on vendors.
  
• Crew Skill Mission times reduced by approximately 30%.
  
• Crafting times for combining materials has been reduced by approximately 30%.
  
• Materials required to craft Premium quality items has been reduced. Specifically, it no longer requires the Conquest crafting material and lowered the overall mat requirements.
  
• Reduced the overall crafting material requirements for crafted Set Bonuses and Tactical items.
  

 

One other note as well since I know there has been concern around material costs. Although the costs are higher players should be seeing a much higher in-flow of materials as well. If you are only doing Crew Skill Missions and nothing else it may feel slower though. However you will receive supplementary materials from playing content (such as boss kills) as well as via Jawa Scrap which you will receive from all deconstruction. For players who are actively harvesting materials we actually expect that you will be able to craft even faster than you could previously (due to a large in-flow of materials). As always, please keep any and all feedback coming. If what I stated above is not what you have been seeing then more changes may be necessary.

 

Thanks all.

 

-eric

That last paragraph. Re reading all that bullcrap makes my blood boil in anger.

 

Although the costs are higher players should be seeing a much higher in-flow of materials as well.

Really? like...REALLY?

However you will receive supplementary materials from playing content (such as boss kills)

You need to roll for the satchel and have you seen the amount? Its worst than in PTS, most i got was 4 mats and that is considering all qualities. FOUR, one single component requires TWENTY.

as well as via Jawa Scrap which you will receive from all deconstruction

At 200 scrap per mat? Yeah, right. Keep dreaming.

For players who are actively harvesting materials we actually expect that you will be able to craft even faster than you could previously (due to a large in-flow of materials)

Without white mats, We used to require 4 materials per component. In average i think we could from a single node get mats to craft 4 components. Now we are lucky if we get enough to craft a single component. All the blue and purple mats in nodes are practically pointless because blue and purple components have chained requirements of blue and greens ones.

As always, please keep any and all feedback coming. If what I stated above is not what you have been seeing then more changes may be necessary.

We gave you all the feedback, and still no more changes.

Darev raised the first alarms in PTS 1.0 with Jawa scraps changes.

Citrienne posts demonstrated how the increase in mats per component and chain requiment of those was insane.

Estelindis showed how overall the system even with infinity rare mats available was not viable.

And lots of people tests supporting those findings, some making very good post showing the points that were wrong and we still got this absolut crap of a system that benefits huge whales and credit sellers.

[Transcendent]

I read commens like that too, but does anyone have a link of Devs saying they need time of the system in live servers? I don't remember reading about it from the devs. Also, it would be pointless. In PTS with infinite credits and infinite rare materials it was literally impossible to test the system because of premium mat requirements.

 

Hey all,

 

Ok here is a recap of some of the changes coming to crafting for 6.0 (beyond what you have seen on PTS).

• Dramatically reduced the credit cost of the supplemental crafting materials on vendors.
  
• Crew Skill Mission times reduced by approximately 30%.
  
• Crafting times for combining materials has been reduced by approximately 30%.
  
• Materials required to craft Premium quality items has been reduced. Specifically, it no longer requires the Conquest crafting material and lowered the overall mat requirements.
  
• Reduced the overall crafting material requirements for crafted Set Bonuses and Tactical items.
  

 

One other note as well since I know there has been concern around material costs. Although the costs are higher players should be seeing a much higher in-flow of materials as well. If you are only doing Crew Skill Missions and nothing else it may feel slower though. However you will receive supplementary materials from playing content (such as boss kills) as well as via Jawa Scrap which you will receive from all deconstruction. For players who are actively harvesting materials we actually expect that you will be able to craft even faster than you could previously (due to a large in-flow of materials). As always, please keep any and all feedback coming. If what I stated above is not what you have been seeing then more changes may be necessary.

 

Thanks all.

 

-eric

 

I think this was the last post on the subject, and its so far from the real thing that is it looks like Eric was mocking us.

 

That's an interesting post to read. It is definitely misleading if taken out of context, especially the first part about supplemental crafting materials cost being reduced. Possibly for Grade 11, however all of the others have increased by 50%.

 

I'm going to assume Eric was posting purely about Grade 11 crafting and nothing else. I'd dread to think what the original material requirements for premium materials were if the version we have on live is reduced, especially with the throttling of material supply due to lack of missions available, as well as increased costs across the board in 6.0.

 

Specifically for the Grade 11 dyes (which I've crafted in a small quantity to see how they sell), it simply isn't worth the effort as far as I can see, due to the cost you have to sell them at to make a profit for the time investment, especially with the extra steps introduced in 6.0.

[DawnAskham]

Crafting is beyond broken, and the lack of even a comment about it's current state, much less any changes in yesterday's patch, says they just don't care and or are more clueless than usual.

 

Fact is, most craftable items are not only ridiculously expensive from a cost and materials perspective (for numerous reasons covered in this and other threads), they are utter trash.

 

Why would anyone craft (or buy a crafted) sub 306 item (gear or modification) when a few days of playing at 75 can get a gear rating high enough to have 306 items drop like candy?

 

For example, a green 274 enhancement requires 3 x green assembly items (each requiring 20 green mats) along with 5 pve group content blue materials, and takes 12 minutes to craft with a rank 50 companion.

 

Successfully reverse engineer the item (20% chance) and learn a blue 278 enhancement that requires 5 x green assemblies (each requiring 20 green mats) along with 20 pve group content blue materials and 8 purple conquest materials.

 

I have no idea what the next level enhancement would be rating wise (282 maybe), nor the materials requirement as I'm not an idiot, and therefore unwilling to burn the mats required to craft one blue 278 item, much less the multiples that would be required to successful learn the next schematic.

 

Instead of crafting (or paying the stupid high multi-million credit prices for one low rating enhancement), I can simply run a FP and get multiple 306 enhancements (with a 306 gear set gained after playing for a week) and or enough tech fragments to buy one from the vendor.

 

To have even put this system into live production shows an appalling lack of foresight on the part of Bioware - that it still hasn't been addressed just shows contempt.

 

EDIT TO ADD - As outlined above for enhancements, and as holds true for augments, there are many blue (prototype) sub 300 items that require conquest materials - and not just one or two, typically 5-8 per item.

 

So Eric's comment about not requiring conquest materials for prototype items is incorrect - for whatever reason.

 

Epic fail.

Edited October 30, 2019 by DawnAskham

[Transcendent]

To have even put this system into live production shows an appalling lack of foresight on the part of Bioware - that it still hasn't been addressed just shows contempt.

 

EDIT TO ADD - As outlined above for enhancements, and as holds true for augments, there are many blue (prototype) sub 300 items that require conquest materials - and not just one or two, typically 5-8 per item.

 

So Eric's comment about not requiring conquest materials for prototype items is incorrect - for whatever reason.

 

Epic fail.

 

Eric does state Premium items (Green) in that quote, even then, Prototype (Blue) items shouldn't require any conquest materials. Artifact items requiring conquest materials is also highly dubious, it should only be for Legendary grade items that conquest materials should be required, definitely not in high quantities though.

 

It seems as though someone decided more materials = better crafting. Whereas more materials generally = less incentive to try to craft, especially when you factor in the horrible RNG reverse engineering reintroduced in 6.0. At least that was one good thing from 4.0, they actually increased the reverse engineer chances while not massively increasing the components or materials required.

 

BioWare can tinker with the nodes / missions as much as they like, the real issue is the schematics and an overly convoluted requirement in terms of materials to be able to participate, alongside the increase in cost to participate. It's as though the only schematics they took lead from were Dark Projects, then copy pasted it to everything else (with additional materials).

[DawnAskham]

Eric does state Premium items (Green) in that quote, even then, Prototype (Blue) items shouldn't require any conquest materials. Artifact items requiring conquest materials is also highly dubious, it should only be for Legendary grade items that conquest materials should be required, definitely not in high quantities though.

 

It seems as though someone decided more materials = better crafting. Whereas more materials generally = less incentive to try to craft, especially when you factor in the horrible RNG reverse engineering reintroduced in 6.0. At least that was one good thing from 4.0, they actually increased the reverse engineer chances while not massively increasing the components or materials required.

 

BioWare can tinker with the nodes / missions as much as they like, the real issue is the schematics and an overly convoluted requirement in terms of materials to be able to participate, alongside the increase in cost to participate. It's as though the only schematics they took lead from were Dark Projects, then copy pasted it to everything else (with additional materials).

 

While I don't like the increased materials requirements nor green materials being far more rare than blue, I could manage around that part of the current design, but as you say, changes to mission yields or levels of basic (gathering / mission mats) materials required to craft won't solve the core issues.

 

Those issues being the inclusion of conquest materials (and to a lesser extent the new isotope) in basic sub-max level / non conquest related items, and the fact the majority of items we can craft are total garbage (while I assume the possibly exists to raise these items to 306 through multiple RE interations - the current RE chance percentages and materials requirements are so outlandish as to effectively make that impossible).

 

Conquest materials should be used to make something like the conquest set gear or a conquest related tactical or something related to ships and conqeust, not basic gear modifications.

 

Schematics for useful level 75 near 306 items should be much more prevalent or readily obtainable through the RE process.

Edited October 30, 2019 by DawnAskham

[fhwi]

Eight solid resource matrices for one blue blaster barrel ...

 

Please Bioware, delete crafting from the game and finish the agony.

[Raemann]

Trans - Absolutely Amazing Report of the condition of 6.0 crafting. I totally geeked out there! I actually got the slide rule out and calculated the increases for my own crafts - then I cried...