6.0 Play your way is a pipe dream

[Delani]

Most games, you get an Achievement awknowledging your ability, SWTOR does this as well. But what this topic is about is "Normal" mode not providing the same tangible game effecting reward, as "hard mode". I see this as wrong, hard content for for the challenge, not so you can 1 shot level 20 mobs. I was never one of those gamers who max leveled then went and farmed level 10 mobs. I feel like a bully when I fight something less than me.

 

To be honest, its a really good reward though. If people know that the completion of hard content provides you with FOTM abilities, then a lot of people are going to do it. And at the end of the day, thats all its about.

[Delani]

I got it all along. Your raging is what made me think you were clueless on the subject.

 

When you made a comparison of my statement when it was supposed to be an analogy of the original comment was why I thought you didnt get it, maybe I was wrong.

[Delani]

This is a really terrible analogy. I have a friend that's a bank teller, a very definite White Collar job, and I have a friend that's a welder, care to guess which one makes more money?

 

So where are we going to draw that line? I can already attest that this gearing system is flawed, at least the idea behind it is, because I've seen players with BiS gear that weren't worth having in groups because they didn't understand the mechanics of the content required to get it. I have literally replaced some of them with companions where I could. When you can get carried through the content, using it as a gateway isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm in the boat of "I don't care about it any more".

 

I've been an Ops tank, healer and dps. I've got trophies in my SHs that support it, but at some point, I lost interest in the grind. I no longer require BiS gear, or these additional perks, for that matter, and so I don't care how they're available, they're not something I'm going after. If I accidentally wind up with them, great, but it's going to be just that, accidentally, because I'm not going to decide I need to go all hardcore again because "new gear".

 

But you can get gear doing anything they said. We dont even know how it works yet even though we recieved details about it in the livestream. Also why are you complaining? Because you want the rare tactical items without working for it?

[Delani]

I hope this is sarcasm... because a "casual" player pays the SAME AMOUNT as an "elitist" player for access to this game and therefore deserves THE SAME GOOD STUFF. How OFTEN you play shouldn't gate you from the best gear... only change the pace at which you can get it. The. Exact. Same. Gear.

 

Clearly you dont understand how MMOs work.

[Damask_Rose]

I hate to say it, better rewards gives people incentive to even partake in harder content. NiM and ranked have to provide better and more exclusive rewards or else there would be no point to do them. Sure, some people "want to challenge themselves" but not most. Most people want exclusive items (rare items) because psychologically people want to be better than others. Thats just the reality.

 

Your reply had nothing to do with my post.

 

I'll try to rephrase it for you. The term "play your way" means no matter how you play the game you have access to the same rewards. It can take much longer for some playstyles over others. It can mean having an RNG chance at the same rewards. But it still means having a chance to get the same rewards. Having rewards that can ONLY be gotten from one playstyle means it is NOT "play your way." It doesn't matter if people want or deserve different prizes for different content.

 

This thread was started to challenge the claim that 6.0 would be "play your way", because it initially looked like some rewards would be exclusive to some playstyles. Since Musco has said there will be alternative ways to get the rewards that looked exclusive, and that those ways will be, indeed, available to everyone, it does look like 6.0 might genuinely turn out to be "play your way."

 

What you seem to want to be discussing is whether or not 6.0 SHOULD be "play your way", in which case, you should start your own thread since that is a separate discussion.

[sharkfishman]

This "Elitist versus Casual" theme is common in many MMOs, and has been prominent in SWTOR many times in the past.

 

Each group obviously wants access to the best items, because, well, that's the whole point of the game. It basically comes down to a few things:

 

1. Who deserves the items?

 

Do "elite" players deserve better gear? This common fallacy makes me laugh. This would be the case for progression where top gear is needed for MM raid completion. However, if the only place to get top gear IS in the MM raid, then obviously you don't need it to beat it. Elite players need to be honest. I want the gear because I want it, not because I need it.

 

Do casual players deserve to be at top combat rating? It depends on whether you want them as paying customers to feel they've reached the "goal" or not. No one feels great having the "Pretty Good" gear. So not getting it eventually/ever is a great way to get people to quit your game.

 

2. Does not having the best items result in a non-enjoyable or negative gaming experience?

 

In PVE, this would arise if people are kicked out/kept out of content due to not having the best gear. I haven't experienced this in SWTOR PVE personally, and with a friendly guild, there are options for playing OPs on SM and MM without top gear.

 

In PVP, it's hard to say. The current iteration of PVP doesn't really seem to affect you if you don't have top gear significantly. The gap isn't huge, so skill can bridge it (except where ranked premades ruining regs is concerned.) However, in the past, this was not the case. Does anyone remember PVP grinding on new toons 3 or 4 years ago? The point is, percentage based stats on Tacs may provide a slight advantage or a HUGE game-breaking advantage when used together with teammates, we don't know yet. Queues prove that getting stomped just means dead queues.

 

3. What is the financial mindset behind the items?

 

Does obtaining the items by keeping them locked behind the highest-skill level content benefit the game financially?

 

This may be the case if it drives a large portion of people to keep playing and playing to get geared up. On the other hand, if it makes a majority of your playerbase say, uh, why am I even trying to get 262 if it's only second best and I'm never going to be able to get 270 anyway? then there may be a financial problem.

 

Only the devs really have the answers.

[Collec]

This made me laugh. If you play unranked, you won't get more than a sniff of those arenas that you enjoy because they were taken out of rotation and now only pop when population is too low to fill a 16-man map.

 

Yeah I know. I get some arenas even during the day, when there's clearly more people playing game. My point was, that I enjoy arenas as well,not just warzones. You putting that in bold,doesn't make it any less true.

 

That's like me saying I love playing Voidstar and then you go on posting...well if you like to play Voidstar, you'll only get a sniff of that warzone.....

 

Personally I love playing all warzones and all arenas. I have no superiority complex of wanting to play just one wz or arena all day every day. Whatever q pop I get,I go in and do that wz or arena.

[DarthSpuds]

This "Elitist versus Casual" theme is common in many MMOs, and has been prominent in SWTOR many times in the past.

 

Each group obviously wants access to the best items, because, well, that's the whole point of the game. It basically comes down to a few things:

 

1. Who deserves the items?

 

Do "elite" players deserve better gear? This common fallacy makes me laugh. This would be the case for progression where top gear is needed for MM raid completion. However, if the only place to get top gear IS in the MM raid, then obviously you don't need it to beat it. Elite players need to be honest. I want the gear because I want it, not because I need it.

 

^ This.

 

I have no idea if SWTOR's player-base is any better than most MMORPGs' players; but in over 5 years of playing WoW I never found one end-game-player smart enough to figure ^ that out on their own.

 

All The Best

[robertthebard]

But you can get gear doing anything they said. We dont even know how it works yet even though we recieved details about it in the livestream. Also why are you complaining? Because you want the rare tactical items without working for it?

 

Did you read the post you quoted? I'm not complaining at all, I don't care. I'm going to continue to play the way I play now, sporadically, and aimlessly, and so, I neither need, nor desire BiS gear. I pointed out the flawed analogy, because in case you didn't guess it right, the blue collar worker makes more money.

 

I actually worked for the BiS gear I used to have. It doesn't bother me at all that someone else may have to, because, as I've stated in every post I've made in this thread, I'm not going to be fussed about it. I don't need it and so I don't care about it one way or the other. They could lock it all behind top tier content and it's not going to affect me at all.

[Delani]

^ This.

 

I have no idea if SWTOR's player-base is any better than most MMORPGs' players; but in over 5 years of playing WoW I never found one end-game-player smart enough to figure ^ that out on their own.

 

All The Best

 

Want is more powerful than need unless we are talking about survival. Wanting something is good incentive. Bioware knows that they can use powerful items to make your character more powerful and more unique than other toons will generate a lot of want, which is great incentive/motivation.

[OlBuzzard]

This is a really terrible analogy. I have a friend that's a bank teller, a very definite White Collar job, and I have a friend that's a welder, care to guess which one makes more money?

 

So where are we going to draw that line? I can already attest that this gearing system is flawed, at least the idea behind it is, because I've seen players with BiS gear that weren't worth having in groups because they didn't understand the mechanics of the content required to get it. I have literally replaced some of them with companions where I could. When you can get carried through the content, using it as a gateway isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm in the boat of "I don't care about it any more".

 

I've been an Ops tank, healer and dps. I've got trophies in my SHs that support it, but at some point, I lost interest in the grind. I no longer require BiS gear, or these additional perks, for that matter, and so I don't care how they're available, they're not something I'm going after. If I accidentally wind up with them, great, but it's going to be just that, accidentally, because I'm not going to decide I need to go all hardcore again because "new gear".

 

Dude... you need a check up !

... (just kidding).... Yeah we agree AGAIN ! What's up with that ! Seriously ???

:eek:

 

On your analysis about the jobs: I was a purchasing director for a NUMBER of years... I was a part of watching a mom and pop operation go from buying parts and equipment retail from discount houses .. to buying at a level to compete on a NATIONAL LEVEL ! And we were still just a mom and pop operation with only one main location and a few national distributors. Yeah ... pretty cool actually. My income NEVER came close to what many others earned annually. BUT I was where I needed to be. I retired at the end of 25 years. We were able to make a difference at the company we worked for. Because I was a "salaried employee" I worked an average of 55 - 60 hours a week for what we were paid. Retirement was based on what we saved ..

 

So this crap about how much you work = how much MORE you earn.. Please GIVE ME AN EVER-LOVIN' BREAK !

 

There has always been the "risk vs reward" discussions. I can tell you now that it is impossible to ever satisfy those who want to spereate themselves above others. There is no amout of money ... rewards .. or any other item that can be possessed to satisfy that drive.

 

My personal thoughts: From what I've seen in the up-coming 6.0 ... and Erics posts on this forum ... ( if everything holds as promised) .. we have no reason to doubt that BW is taking a step in the right direction to improve the overall game of SWTOR.

 

Will be everything and a bag of chips too??? Probably not ! But, I do believe that there always possibilities. I believe that. I'm committed to that.

 

OK I'm sure that there's one or two that think I need to be committed ..

:eek:

 

Hopefully not ! But that's another thread for another time ! LOL !

 

That's just my opinion. And until evidence is produced to prove other wise ... I think I'll just stand pat with that theory.

Edited June 1, 2019 by OlBuzzard

[Delani]

This "Elitist versus Casual" theme is common in many MMOs, and has been prominent in SWTOR many times in the past.

 

Each group obviously wants access to the best items, because, well, that's the whole point of the game. It basically comes down to a few things:

 

1. Who deserves the items?

 

Do "elite" players deserve better gear? This common fallacy makes me laugh. This would be the case for progression where top gear is needed for MM raid completion. However, if the only place to get top gear IS in the MM raid, then obviously you don't need it to beat it. Elite players need to be honest. I want the gear because I want it, not because I need it.

 

Do casual players deserve to be at top combat rating? It depends on whether you want them as paying customers to feel they've reached the "goal" or not. No one feels great having the "Pretty Good" gear. So not getting it eventually/ever is a great way to get people to quit your game.

 

2. Does not having the best items result in a non-enjoyable or negative gaming experience?

 

In PVE, this would arise if people are kicked out/kept out of content due to not having the best gear. I haven't experienced this in SWTOR PVE personally, and with a friendly guild, there are options for playing OPs on SM and MM without top gear.

 

In PVP, it's hard to say. The current iteration of PVP doesn't really seem to affect you if you don't have top gear significantly. The gap isn't huge, so skill can bridge it (except where ranked premades ruining regs is concerned.) However, in the past, this was not the case. Does anyone remember PVP grinding on new toons 3 or 4 years ago? The point is, percentage based stats on Tacs may provide a slight advantage or a HUGE game-breaking advantage when used together with teammates, we don't know yet. Queues prove that getting stomped just means dead queues.

 

3. What is the financial mindset behind the items?

 

Does obtaining the items by keeping them locked behind the highest-skill level content benefit the game financially?

 

This may be the case if it drives a large portion of people to keep playing and playing to get geared up. On the other hand, if it makes a majority of your playerbase say, uh, why am I even trying to get 262 if it's only second best and I'm never going to be able to get 270 anyway? then there may be a financial problem.

 

Only the devs really have the answers.

 

Im glad you mentioned finances because at the end of the day, thats why they are locking the best items behind the hardest content, also the content you must be a subscriber to partake in. Since SWTOR is a business, that is why a lot of the "more deesirable" tactical items that will most likely make your toon OP will be locked behind Nim ops and Ranked arenas because you must be a sub in order to partake in it.

[sharkfishman]

Want is more powerful than need unless we are talking about survival. Wanting something is good incentive. Bioware knows that they can use powerful items to make your character more powerful and more unique than other toons will generate a lot of want, which is great incentive/motivation.

 

It's only a great motivation if obtaining said item is in the realm of possibility.

 

It doesn't make sense for French winemaker to invest in tons of advertising in the U.S. about how great and high-quality their wine is, because while enticing, very few people will actually consider going to France to get it or requesting that a local company import it.

 

Top-tier gear IS a great carrot only for players who know they have a shot at obtaining it.

[sharkfishman]

Im glad you mentioned finances because at the end of the day, thats why they are locking the best items behind the hardest content, also the content you must be a subscriber to partake in. Since SWTOR is a business, that is why a lot of the "more deesirable" tactical items that will most likely make your toon OP will be locked behind Nim ops and Ranked arenas because you must be a sub in order to partake in it.

 

Do the majority of subscribers participate in NiM OPs?

 

Do the majority of subs participate in Ranked arenas?

 

(Honest question).

 

Because they would be only ones motivated by such a decision. Everyone else would instead be irritated by it.

[Noerra]

Do the majority of subscribers participate in NiM OPs?

 

Do the majority of subs participate in Ranked arenas?

 

(Honest question).

 

Because they would be only ones motivated by such a decision. Everyone else would instead be irritated by it.

 

This is how it is and can be said about any other content too. Did Ossus gearing system (having those crystals locked behind world bosses and raid and so on) motivate me to play that content? No. It motivated me to play GW2. If some content feels crap to me it does not get any more tempting by limiting rewards from content i like to do.

 

This new system sounds excellent to me. If someone wants "superitemX" as soon as possible they can aim for content where it definately drops, if someone rather does something else but wants same "superitemX", they can work towards getting it too. I just love it that i can do exactly the content i like and still get nice things and not just some consolation prize.

 

Thank you Bioware for this.

[Delani]

It's only a great motivation if obtaining said item is in the realm of possibility.

 

It doesn't make sense for French winemaker to invest in tons of advertising in the U.S. about how great and high-quality their wine is, because while enticing, very few people will actually consider going to France to get it or requesting that a local company import it.

 

Top-tier gear IS a great carrot only for players who know they have a shot at obtaining it.

 

Its obtainable just not easy to obtain and because of that, it is even more valuable and worthy of the grind.

[Delani]

Do the majority of subscribers participate in NiM OPs?

 

Do the majority of subs participate in Ranked arenas?

 

(Honest question).

 

Because they would be only ones motivated by such a decision. Everyone else would instead be irritated by it.

 

Who is everyone else? I dont know who the majority of subs are and what they do with their subscription but if your not doing activities that require a sub why would you even sub in the first place? Those are the two main activities that require a sub in order to achieve better tacticals/abilities. Why should bioware award those that are participating in their game and paying a monthly sub the same way than those that are not?

[Delani]

This is how it is and can be said about any other content too. Did Ossus gearing system (having those crystals locked behind world bosses and raid and so on) motivate me to play that content? No. It motivated me to play GW2. If some content feels crap to me it does not get any more tempting by limiting rewards from content i like to do.

 

This new system sounds excellent to me. If someone wants "superitemX" as soon as possible they can aim for content where it definately drops, if someone rather does something else but wants same "superitemX", they can work towards getting it too. I just love it that i can do exactly the content i like and still get nice things and not just some consolation prize.

 

Thank you Bioware for this.

Thank you!!! finally someone who gets it. You can still get those "rare tactical items" that will most likely make your toon "overpowered" but unless you partake in harder content it will take longer. I dont get why people are upset about this.

[Delani]

People that are rich are going to be able to get rare tactical items

People that are good at the game and can succesfully partake in harder content will be able to get rare tactical items

People who invest a lot of time will be able to get rare tactical items

 

Why is this an issue?

[sharkfishman]

Who is everyone else? I dont know who the majority of subs are and what they do with their subscription but if your not doing activities that require a sub why would you even sub in the first place? Those are the two main activities that require a sub in order to achieve better tacticals/abilities. Why should bioware award those that are participating in their game and paying a monthly sub the same way than those that are not?

 

Unranked PVP requires a subscription if you want to play more than 5 matches.

Ranked PVP requires a subscription.

SM OPS requires a subscription.

VM OPS requires a subscription.

MM OPS requires a subscription.

Galactic Command requires a subscription.

Using the broker to purchase anything over $350,000 requires a subscription.

 

So, NiM ops and Ranked PVP are not the only activities for subscribers.

 

I'm not arguing against placing exclusive items or gear in the highest modes of content, mind you, my post was merely pointing out how this can affect the portion of their subscribers who do not run NiM OPs or ranked PVP. If everything is available to everyone, just faster for harder content, I like it personally.

 

However, my personal thoughts don't matter, because I don't have the data to know who is paying the bills or how large a portion of the playerbase participates in NiM and Ranked.

[sharkfishman]

Let me point out one last thing, because I think some people might have that misconception that I'm being negative about this update. It's not that. It's just that I've lived through total game reworks/gear reworks in many MMOs, and I know that when they're first announced, people take everything at face value.

 

I'm not trying to be negative or say: "this sucks, undo it!" Progress is good.

 

I'm also not going to accept everything on blind faith: "Devs, you're answering my prayers, thanks so much, you're incredible, everything is butterflies and roses now!!!"

 

It's important to have balanced, cold-headed discussions when it comes to this type of sweeping game update. It's better to get clarification and discuss potential snags when there's still plenty of time left to go.

 

Want an example?

 

We're told that with this new system, everyone will be able to get everything, eventually. But before you rush to say how TERRIBLE or how AMAZING that is, think about how little information we even have yet. Fortunately, the devs have been very nice about answering these questions, and having stuff on PTS will also help.

 

Let's imagine NiM OPs and Ranked PVP reward 5 unique, powerful tacticals that everyone will, being honest, need to use to perform at optimal level (I mean, why even release the other tacticals if there are going to be more powerful ones that make these useless for any serious player? But that's a question for another thread). People participating in these modes has an 20% chance of getting a specific one of the five, and a 100% chance of getting at least one every week.

 

What about the other players in the game (since we know they will also be able to get them eventually)? Well, there are 2 possible scenarios, and they both have wildly different outcomes:

 

1. ChuckBucks/CPs have their own vendor, and you can purchase the rare tactical you want directly using your saved-up CPs. They're costly, so it takes a 2-3 weeks to have enough for one. (I like this option).

 

2. The ChuckBucks/CP vendor doesn't actually have any specific tactical items on it. You save up lots of CPs, and then buy a Tactical Box. This has all of the tacticals in the game inside. Each box has an 80% chance of giving you a normal tactical, 15% chance of a rare and 5% chance of an ultra-rare that you can otherwise only get from NiM OPs or Ranked. (Does anyone like this one?

 

Both are possible, which is why it's important to ask questions instead of blindly raging against something or accepting it as the second coming of Ajunta Pall.

[OlBuzzard]

Let me point out one last thing, because I think some people might have that misconception that I'm being negative about this update. It's not that. It's just that I've lived through total game reworks/gear reworks in many MMOs, and I know that when they're first announced, people take everything at face value.

 

I'm not trying to be negative or say: "this sucks, undo it!" Progress is good.

 

I'm also not going to accept everything on blind faith: "Devs, you're answering my prayers, thanks so much, you're incredible, everything is butterflies and roses now!!!"

 

It's important to have balanced, cold-headed discussions when it comes to this type of sweeping game update. It's better to get clarification and discuss potential snags when there's still plenty of time left to go.

 

Want an example?

 

We're told that with this new system, everyone will be able to get everything, eventually. But before you rush to say how TERRIBLE or how AMAZING that is, think about how little information we even have yet. Fortunately, the devs have been very nice about answering these questions, and having stuff on PTS will also help.

 

Let's imagine NiM OPs and Ranked PVP reward 5 unique, powerful tacticals that everyone will, being honest, need to use to perform at optimal level (I mean, why even release the other tacticals if there are going to be more powerful ones that make these useless for any serious player? But that's a question for another thread). People participating in these modes has an 20% chance of getting a specific one of the five, and a 100% chance of getting at least one every week.

 

What about the other players in the game (since we know they will also be able to get them eventually)? Well, there are 2 possible scenarios, and they both have wildly different outcomes:

 

1. ChuckBucks/CPs have their own vendor, and you can purchase the rare tactical you want directly using your saved-up CPs. They're costly, so it takes a 2-3 weeks to have enough for one. (I like this option).

 

2. The ChuckBucks/CP vendor doesn't actually have any specific tactical items on it. You save up lots of CPs, and then buy a Tactical Box. This has all of the tacticals in the game inside. Each box has an 80% chance of giving you a normal tactical, 15% chance of a rare and 5% chance of an ultra-rare that you can otherwise only get from NiM OPs or Ranked. (Does anyone like this one?

 

Both are possible, which is why it's important to ask questions instead of blindly raging against something or accepting it as the second coming of Ajunta Pall.

 

I don't know that I agree with all of this ... but your point is well noted. Good presentation .

[sharkfishman]

I don't know that I agree with all of this ... but your point is well noted. Good presentation .

 

Thank you, kind sir.

[Sareeph]

What about the other players in the game (since we know they will also be able to get them eventually)? Well, there are 2 possible scenarios, and they both have wildly different outcomes:

 

1. ChuckBucks/CPs have their own vendor, and you can purchase the rare tactical you want directly using your saved-up CPs. They're costly, so it takes a 2-3 weeks to have enough for one. (I like this option).

 

2. The ChuckBucks/CP vendor doesn't actually have any specific tactical items on it. You save up lots of CPs, and then buy a Tactical Box. This has all of the tacticals in the game inside. Each box has an 80% chance of giving you a normal tactical, 15% chance of a rare and 5% chance of an ultra-rare that you can otherwise only get from NiM OPs or Ranked. (Does anyone like this one?

 

Both are possible, which is why it's important to ask questions instead of blindly raging against something or accepting it as the second coming of Ajunta Pall.

 

Actually they did discuss this issue in the stream on Thursday. At the 1:04:50 mark they mention two vendors. The first will have the same specific slot items for Charles Points but which may not be the best in game. The second will have a rotating list of items which you can spend your Charles Points on and get the item you are looking for but you must visit them regularly to see what new items are available or you may miss the one you really want.

[DanaOShee]

I am glad that you brought this up! There has been some misconception about how gearing works when we indicate play your way. Let me make some direct statements and then I will add clarification:

• You do not need to play any content to get specific items.
  
• You can play almost any content in the game to get any item.

 

Since you brought up specifically that you never want to play ranked and only want to play unranked let me use that as an example. It is still possible that specific items come from specific content. Let's say that there was a specific tactical that only came from ranked. Yes, that does mean that specific item will not come from playing unranked warzones. However, you can get that item from Renown Crates, Conquest rewards, and by spending Charles Points/ChuxBux (on both the in-direct and direct vendors).

 

The play the content you want portion of the loop may not give you availability to every item in the game, that is true. But every other part of the loop does. So again to put it directly...

 

If you only want to play unranked warzones, you can, and you will still have access to every set and tactical item in the game. (this statement is true of almost every content type in the game at max level).

 

I hope that provides some clarity and allows you to be excited about what we are doing with spoils of war!

 

-eric

for me its a pitty, that long time players have no advantage. I played this game hard, since 8 years, i did each hard quest to get items to earn advantages. but allways the new ones get bolstered , and u think; uhhh we have to care about new player