Let's Discuss Ranked PvP Ideas...

[Lhancelot]

- Last but not least, a good pvp players doesn't need any badges or titles to show he is good. If someone is really good others will come to realize this through his plays and his ability to enable his team to win. What good does a shiny title do if it gets awarded to the wrong players through wintrading and a botched system.

 

This is the real reason why the ELO rating system they use now simply isn't worth the drama it creates. I mean the amount of gameplay centered around trying to improve ELO rating is ridiculous and there's so many ways to do it with cheats.

 

Not only is the present system a failure by encouraging the shady playing or outright cheats due to the ease in which it can be done, on top of it all is the fact the present ELO rating system fails at doing the main responsibility it has and that is proving or indicating who is the best player(s)!

 

No one, literally no one believes the top 3 titles awarded to the players with top ELO indicates these players are truly the best of the best. If this present system can't even get that part right, exactly what is the point of using such a scoring system?

 

Basically you got a broken scoring system that only rewards pure luck and/or the players that manipulate and avoid win trades or partake in trading wins themselves and this behavior not only creates tons of toxicity it pushes any honest players away from having any interest in trying ranked.

 

There is absolutely not one defense of the present scoring system that logically makes sense for anyone who is interested in having a contest that is harder to cheat and at the very least requires some time investment that proves the player has worked hard to get their rating.

 

Honestly anyone that defends the system after we have seen it fail for years makes me wonder what agenda they have because for years now we have seen this ELO rating system cater to cheaters.

 

Every scoring system is going to have flaws, nothing is perfect but at the very least we know exactly what flaws the present ELO system has and the state of ranked is in such a state that I honestly think any change would be an improvement. Whether it's making the scoring system based on total wins, reducing the amount losses have on rating, or some other form of scoring what is clear though is a systemic change is needed.

 

The only way ELO rating makes any sense is number one: it cannot be susceptible to manipulation. The fact that there are just way too many ways to cheat the scoring system and it's impossible for BW to have hired gamesitters keeping tabs on ranked 24/7 means a different system needs to be in place, one that isn't so easily cheated with just a small amount of time and willing "friends" who will win trade for others.

[lord-angelus]

I'm sorry but this whole ranked system is totally idiotic, not even mentioning the class balance. First thing you need to understand you cant have perfect balance for pvp and pve at the same time if you give them same output. Pt's are garbage defensive wise. Today enemy team had 2 operatives, stuned locked even without a full resolve bar ,stab stab = death.

 

This is idiotic. Seperate the pvp and pve output like wow, then achieve a good balance beetween classes then fix the matchmaking. Otherwise whatever you do people will play flavour of the month, or cant play with they main which they want to play in ranked

[merovejec]

- Last but not least, a good pvp players doesn't need any badges or titles to show he is good. If someone is really good others will come to realize this through his plays and his ability to enable his team to win. What good does a shiny title do if it gets awarded to the wrong players through wintrading and a botched system.

 

That is also a nice point, you dont have those top 3 ppl discussing here on forums.....only a few...... I really wonder why

[DuHavok]

That is also a nice point, you dont have those top 3 ppl discussing here on forums.....only a few...... I really wonder why

 

So I can speak for a few on eu that we need slight changes but people making drama about this although it’s not that bad like it’s shown in this thread. I am fine with no changes and so are many other people. They would discuss here if there would be something real bad to discuss about. Whatever a top3 player is btw

[merovejec]

So I can speak for a few on eu that we need slight changes but people making drama about this although it’s not that bad like it’s shown in this thread. I am fine with no changes and so are many other people. They would discuss here if there would be something real bad to discuss about. Whatever a top3 player is btw

 

Ah ok, so that means the current players who finish in Top 3 spots almost every season dont have issues with the current system. Sure, that is natural since they use the system to their benefit. Like playing ranked matches on German and French servers where there is only a small group of people quing

[DuHavok]

Ah ok, so that means the current players who finish in Top 3 spots almost every season dont have issues with the current system. Sure, that is natural since they use the system to their benefit. Like playing ranked matches on German and French servers where there is only a small group of people quing

 

 

oh god maybe that’s also one of the reasons why nobody wants to discuss here. Just leave us mero.. please

[Alterkai]

 

 

[*]Reduce both the rating gained from a win and removed from a loss

 

 

I would suggest that reward players in the solo match according their best roles performance. For example for the players who have the highest healing, top dps and top tanking across the match, despite their teams and outcome, they will be reward with the highest points equally and the reward goes down as the ranking decreases in one match, the last one will simply not receive any points. Making the solo rating more dependent on personal performance rather than the team performance. So op players can still get their ratings despite the outcome and new players can just keep playing and getting better without getting flamed.

[Zurules]

I would suggest that reward players in the solo match according their best roles performance. For example for the players who have the highest healing, top dps and top tanking across the match, despite their teams and outcome, they will be reward with the highest points equally and the reward goes down as the ranking decreases in one match, the last one will simply not receive any points. Making the solo rating more dependent on personal performance rather than the team performance. So op players can still get their ratings despite the outcome and new players can just keep playing and getting better without getting flamed.

 

 

Rewarding players by personal performance has one serious flaw which is why it should never be implemented. Who ever gets focused first (generally class base decision e.g. Pt/Vg) will almost always have the lowest outputs. Also, if a player knows he's going to be focused first, he might then do his best to make his opponents chase him all over to waste as much of their time so that his teammates can do all the "output" (*healers can be the only exception since they can heal themselves effectively while kiting across the map) to win. In this case, the guy kiting but doing little to no dps would have had a "bad output" performance would get the least rating even though he is probably the MVP of his team because he wasted so much of his opponents time at the price of his own personal "output".

[GUN_GAME]

That is also a nice point, you dont have those top 3 ppl discussing here on forums.....only a few...... I really wonder why

There is nothing to discuss here for me. Current s-r system is not great, but not as bad as ppl saying here. In my experience 80% of my loss games is lost cuz i ****ed up somethere, 10% ppl were throwing and other 10% are just uncarryable bads who q for whatever reason.

[Lhancelot]

There is nothing to discuss here for me. Current s-r system is not great, but not as bad as ppl saying here. In my experience 80% of my loss games is lost cuz i ****ed up somethere, 10% ppl were throwing and other 10% are just uncarryable bads who q for whatever reason.

 

Luckily our anecdotal evidence proving or disproving how bad ranked is atm isn't taken as the sole source of information regarding the state of solo/team ranked.

 

BW has the stats that show participation numbers as well as how many people most likely cheated for their rating.

 

Seeing they are looking into making changes to the system I'd say those numbers they have indicate that it is as bad as some people are saying. They wouldn't consider changing the system if it was working fairly well.

[GUN_GAME]

Luckily our anecdotal evidence proving or disproving how bad ranked is atm isn't taken as the sole source of information regarding the state of solo/team ranked.

 

BW has the stats that show participation numbers as well as how many people most likely cheated for their rating.

 

Seeing they are looking into making changes to the system I'd say those numbers they have indicate that it is as bad as some people are saying. They wouldn't consider changing the system if it was working fairly well.

Im speaking for myself, i dont have huge problems with current system. Only problem for me when healer or tank leaves/declain, dps get backfilled.

[Lhancelot]

Im speaking for myself, i dont have huge problems with current system. Only problem for me when healer or tank leaves/declain, dps get backfilled.

 

Got you. I think sometimes change is good and in this situation, the game would benefit from change.

 

Even if you personally don't see much problem with it as it is now, perhaps if it were improved upon it would be that much better, even for you.

[DuHavok]

Look mero. Had to hire katrinka on the forums to prove that it isn’t that bad like ppl tellin.

[Lundorff]

deleted Edited March 23, 2019 by Lundorff

[merovejec]

BW has the stats that show participation numbers as well as how many people most likely cheated for their rating.

 

Yes, they have all the data. They see how many ppl que, how often they play and much much more. Question is, can they use this data? You are right that they should see how many accounts (not toons cause some people take part in tanked with up to 10 chars) actually play ranked. They should also tell how many used cheats and could see what % of that player base it is. If its too much then something is wrong with the system.

 

If Mikes reaction is just based on forum crying its not that good. They should react based on data and not just on people shouting on forums.

 

Look mero. Had to hire katrinka on the forums to prove that it isn’t that bad like ppl tellin.

 

You are making me look like a rich person or something. But its good to know that people are at least reading. I just wrote about it in the afternoon and already got a reaction. Or is the "PVP" community forwarding the news?

Edited March 15, 2019 by merovejec

[sharkfishman]

Rewarding players by personal performance has one serious flaw which is why it should never be implemented. Who ever gets focused first (generally class base decision e.g. Pt/Vg) will almost always have the lowest outputs. Also, if a player knows he's going to be focused first, he might then do his best to make his opponents chase him all over to waste as much of their time so that his teammates can do all the "output" (*healers can be the only exception since they can heal themselves effectively while kiting across the map) to win. In this case, the guy kiting but doing little to no dps would have had a "bad output" performance would get the least rating even though he is probably the MVP of his team because he wasted so much of his opponents time at the price of his own personal "output".

Damage in should be considered with this kind of personal performance consideration (since in your example he would be the one receiving/healing back from a large amount of the damage).

 

I would also suggest that there's room for both in a new rating system.

 

It doesn't have to be 100% one way or the other.

 

Personal performance could represent part of the total points awarded (like 50-60%) and win/loss would represent the other 40-50%. That way losses wouldn't be as punishing if you played well in the match, but the team members would still be encouraged to try to win, not just boost their damage/healing output.

 

Of course, these are all just suggestions for the devs to consider.

[sharkfishman]

You ask pretty stupid questions. Ofc i did it alone; yes all chars except 2 of them were played in solo ranked; skill doesnt guarantee a win in solo ranked and it shouldn't since solo ranked matchmaking must be random and sometimes you are lucky sometimes not. The feature is that if you are skilled your win ration outweighs loose ratio which allows you to climb up with time. I already said how long a skilled player can play to obtain gold depending on the class he plays. This also includes me.

 

Btw skill cant guarantee you a win in tr neither. Much depends in your team mates who could be much less skilled than you and on setup. For instance, decent 2 marauders, jugg and a healer wont win skilled skilled engi sniper, dot mara, pt tank and a healer since aoe setup will always stack and create a huge pressure.

So, according to your reasoning ... multiple random outcomes = skilled player. Got it.

 

I understand that you're against any system that requires players to play for more than a certain period of time, because that would mean you would have to focus on a few toons instead of 9, and the rewards that comes with that. And that's a valid consideration for the devs to take into account.

 

It doesn't mean that having your first 20 matches reward so much of your score (in circumstances you admit are mostly random) is good.

 

I can tell you're getting upset as well, so I won't continue to respond to your posts to avoid derailing the thread.

[EmanoWanga]

derailing the thread.

 

I think Stubenhocker is already doing that.

[Sertar]

Ah ok, so that means the current players who finish in Top 3 spots almost every season dont have issues with the current system. Sure, that is natural since they use the system to their benefit. Like playing ranked matches on German and French servers where there is only a small group of people quing

What is wrong with playing ranked there? Are you implying players with high rating there are wintraders by default?

That is also a nice point, you dont have those top 3 ppl discussing here on forums.....only a few...... I really wonder why

Or is the "PVP" community forwarding the news?

Can you please stop with your Illuminati and Mafia nonsense? We're playing an MMO here, obviously people are connected in different ways and talk about whatever they want in the way they want. Like everyone IRL. Now we have an official place to discuss Ranked PvP ideas with developers (hopefully) reading here in the forums. But I can definitely see reasons why players who could say a lot about this topic are not participating. And I apologize for possible name calling in advance:

1. Being tired of people like you, that will always and at every point this comes up, automatically accuse all "top 3 ppl" for wintrading, botting, queue abusing or being part of your "Ranked Mafia". Not only do you really seem to think everybody would do that, but you also spread this opinion all over the forums. And you wonder why people don't like to discuss with you?

2. Being tired of people that don't argue with facts. Exaggerating and simply making things up just to have something to complain about and find someone to blame, which is usually BioWare. Granted, this is a pretty human thing to do in the internet, but it doesn't support objective discussions in any way. Sad part is, some of the most active people on the forums really enjoy doing that (hint: female).

3. Not having faith in the agenda. With the experience of years of nothing happening or BW not listening (ask snave) and even then: all you can do is to write a post that is only in line with previously mentioned people, so that even if they listen they might get a wrong picture and make wrong decisions.

 

But in the end, I would agree with you. It's like voting. Every vote, every post counts, so everyone that cares about the topic should participate at this discussion if he/she likes it or not.

[merovejec]

What is wrong with playing ranked there? Are you implying players with high rating there are wintraders by default?

 

Can you please stop with your Illuminati and Mafia nonsense?

 

Playing on a server, which has low population or is otherwise oriented (specifically TH) is debateable. Sure, you can get top 3 playing there but is that the same top 3 a person gets playing on DM? or SF? I tried playing on TH and Leviatan, no pops. So I am sorry, but I really have to wonder here.

 

The Illuminati and Mafia stuff was not even started by me. There are others who claim the same. Why do you think this thread appeared in the first place?? Cause of cheating in ranked. What do cheaters aim for? Its surely not siler and bronze tiers. So you can logicaly deduce who the cheaters are.

 

I do not care if people are tired of me, if people dont like me, if they dont want to discuss with me. Go ahead there is the ignore function. I am trying to contribute to the discussion. I made a post with suggestions, vut then people start offending me so I have to write back. Thats all. Yeah ok, sometimes I have to comment when people write nonsence.

 

I do not blame Bioware. I know their limits. I am here just asking for changes which could be in their power.

[Sertar]

Playing on a server, which has low population or is otherwise oriented (specifically TH) is debateable.

Can you please provide proof for "low population" and explain what you mean with "otherwise oriented (specifically TH)"? Also what is possibly debatable about playing on an official server?

Edited March 15, 2019 by Sertar

[JediMasterAlex]

What is wrong with playing ranked there? Are you implying players with high rating there are wintraders by default?

 

The vast majority of top spots are held due to rating manipulation of some kind. The people involved usually admit it, and are proud of it, like Mero is. Some of them think that they're "proving a point." Some of them, like Szopen has said, think that they deserve top 3 just because they're "good" players. All of these people are behaving totally unethically, and it's shameful. They are further enabled by a lot of other players that don't seem to care about wintrading taking place in their midst, as long as it's only "good" players benefiting from it. It is a real, persistent problem, and the only people that deny it's taking place are those who are either completely ignorant or complicit.

Edited March 15, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[nepochop]

Can you please provide proof for "low population" and explain what you mean with "otherwise oriented (specifically TH)"? Also what is possibly debatable about playing on an official server?

 

My experience with germans is that they are very specific people. I was surprised back when I played on TH. There were 2 instances on fleet each with over 100 people and absolutely nothing popped! I was qued as healer for Master, Veteran FPS, Ops, GSF all at the same time.....nothing for about 40 min from 7 pm. Sure was in the past, now its more active due to Conquest and people do those things for conquest weekly.

 

But in genera the players there seem to be doing some personal stuff, maybe organized RP, raids etc, but I never noticed ranked going on there.

[EmanoWanga]

Can you please provide proof for "low population" and explain what you mean with "otherwise oriented (specifically TH)"? Also what is possibly debatable about playing on an official server?

 

Ok Mr. Facts, here is the statistic from Season 10 where you can see number of pages on Leaderboards per server:

 

SF 98

SS 66

TH 34

Lev 14

DM 134

 

The if you are Top 3 and you have been playing on TH then you have faced 4 times less players then on DM and 3 times less than on SF. So this is meant by "low population". Sure its a biased figure, but it still proves Meros point.

Edited March 15, 2019 by EmanoWanga

[Sertar]

The vast majority of top spots are held due to rating manipulation of some kind.

MAJORITY means over 50% in my words. And you even say VAST MAJORITY. What season are we talking about here? And which mode, Solo or Team Ranked? In S10 TR I only know 2 players that got away. In S10 SR it's definitely more, and it's a shame how many it is, but I want to see proof for that >50%, because that is just not happening and once again an exaggeration.

Some of them, like Szopen has said, think that they deserve top 3 just because they're "good" players.

Oh I know players like this too. Annoying little kids that look at leaderboards and say: "I should be at his place" like 5 times per hour. But you know what? I know one that tried in S10 and didn't get it. Because he didn't wintrade. Others do, but not everyone.

The people involved usually admit it, and are proud of it, like Mero is.

It's sad that we got this far, but once again this is supported by stating and spreading the opinion about how little Elo means and how "the vast majority" of players are wintraders. Again, this is not true and continueing to spread this opinion does not help to get back into the other direction.

They are further enabled by a lot of other players that don't seem to care about wintrading taking place in their midst, as long as it's only "good" players benefiting from it. It is a real, persistent problem, and the only people that deny it's taking place are those who are either completely ignorant or complicit.

A lot of people care about wintrading. But a lot of them gave up the hope of wintraders getting banned, because it was not happening in too many cases. So the common sense became: "well they don't get banned, but I still want to play ranked so what can I do." But from my experience people do care.

 

TLDR: Tbh, I think we agree in most parts of the discussion. But I don't like that shady taste that people bring into it once someone talks about Ranked PvP. That picture of the toxic, wintrading, throwing and openly admitting because he "deserves it" 24/7 queueing no-life kid might apply for a hand full of people, and yes they probably have Top 3 titles from whatever seasons, but it does not apply for the "majority" of Ranked players, not even for the "majority" of Top 3 title owners.