alexsamma Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 I realize many of us aren't bothered by "toxic" behavior, but that doesn't make it less toxic. For many people childish insults and what we seem to understand as toxic behavior discourages them and others from participating in PVP because not everyone is of the mentality that it's ok to call people *******s who need to uninstall the game and go die. It's irrelevant that long time PVP players and/or vets might not care about this type of behavior but many people are offended by it and don't want to read/hear it. I understand the frustration and been there myself but recognize by expressing my spite or anger at someone especially in open channels is not acceptable. I am not bothered by angry manchildren yelling at me, but many people don't react well to insults whether it's aimed at them or someone else openly. This is being toxic when our behavior perpetuates negativity which is all ranting and raging at someone openly does. The point I was trying to make is that everyone has a different definition for what is Toxic, we're both "older" players who get along with each other and we have very different thresholds for what we consider toxic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) No matter the circumstance, toxic behavior is not acceptable. Apparently haven't understood a word I've written. Oh well, at least others can decide for themselves if they bother to read this thread. Just know one thing; you are not objectively right in any sense. It's silly to pretend to have moral superiority in an argument when you don't have any basis for your assertions. Just saying "being toxic might make other people toxic" isn't really an argument, especially when no one agrees on what "toxic" even is. The point I was trying to make is that everyone has a different definition for what is Toxic, we're both "older" players who get along with each other and we have very different thresholds for what we consider toxic. Exactly right. Edited March 19, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Apparently haven't understood a word I've written. Oh well, at least others can decide for themselves if they bother to read this thread. Just know one thing; you are not objectively right in any sense. It's silly to pretend to have moral superiority in an argument when you don't have any basis for your assertions. Just saying "being toxic might make other people toxic" isn't really an argument, especially when no one agrees on what "toxic" even is. Do you agree that toxic behavior is behavior that is purposefully aimed at someone with harmful intentions that can and does cause stress to them and/or others that might be bystanders who hear/read what is written? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Do you agree that toxic behavior is behavior that is purposefully aimed at someone with harmful intentions that can and does cause stress to them and/or others that might be bystanders who hear/read what is written? You'll notice that I haven't offered a definition for "toxic" behavior. I don't think it's a helpful exercise, because you can just be specific about the kind of behavior you're talking about. Behavior purposefully aimed at someone with harmful intentions is often wrong to partake in, yes, but not always. I've already given scenarios where it's obviously not wrong. Here's another example: self defense. By definition you are purposefully trying to harm someone to stop them from harming you. Whether any particular behavior will cause someone else stress is virtually impossible to know beforehand, so that's not a very helpful part of your definition. Incidentally, I don't think worrying about causing other people stress is a good reason to censor yourself or others. I'd love to bring in some political examples, but my post would probably get removed. I'll just vaguely say that some people get stressed about certain people marrying each other. Does that mean people should stop that behavior to prevent the others from getting stressed about it? Again, just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) Behavior purposefully aimed at someone with harmful intentions is often wrong to partake in, yes, but not always. I've already given scenarios where it's obviously not wrong. Exactly when is it acceptable and alright to treat other people negatively or spew angry/harmful things meant to hurt their feelings in a game? There's never a time where that's acceptable behavior. If you don't want to call that toxic behavior, that's fine too we can use other terminology if something else fits it better in your mind. Even if someone is a win trader and I see them in the act, I still wouldn't send them hate tells and call them out on fleet telling everyone how awful this person is for doing what I think they are doing. I'd write their name down for personal memory and report them to BW. One reason I don't like spewing toxicity is because, what if I am wrong? Sometimes what appears to be going on is not. How rich would it be if I accused someone of cheating and "called them out" to the fleet when in actuality it's not true? I could be mistaken... I have no problem in confronting someone in a tell to get an explanation of what they are doing, or sending in a report if I feel like I see someone cheating. I don't think "calling out" people and creating a toxic environment helps anything or solves anything except perhaps brings me personal fulfillment from venting on them. Edited March 19, 2019 by Lhancelot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) Exactly when is it acceptable and alright to treat other people negatively or spew angry/harmful things meant to hurt their feelings in a game? There's never a time where that's acceptable behavior. If you don't want to call that toxic behavior, that's fine too we can use other terminology if something else fits it better in your mind. I've already addressed this, but I'll try to be clearer. If your only goal is to hurt another's feelings, then yes, I'm happy to agree that you shouldn't do it. But very often that is just incidental to another message that you're communicating. If you want to make it clear to someone that they are in the wrong, they may take great offense. They could claim what you said is "toxic" and just meant to hurt them, but your goal may have been entirely different, such as to point out to them that they are behaving badly. This really comes back to the way people interpret toxicity in such different ways. Even if someone is a win trader and I see them in the act, I still wouldn't send them hate tells and call them out on fleet telling everyone how awful this person is for doing what I think they are doing. I'd write their name down for personal memory and report them to BW. One reason I don't like spewing toxicity is because, what if I am wrong? Sometimes what appears to be going on is not. How rich would it be if I accused someone of cheating and "called them out" to the fleet when in actuality it's not true? I could be mistaken... I have no problem in confronting someone in a tell to get an explanation of what they are doing, or sending in a report if I feel like I see someone cheating. Well, the way you would handle such a situation is clearly different from how I would and do. That doesn't make you right and me wrong. Erring on the side of not calling people out so as not to unjustly target the innocent is good, but that doesn't really negate my response at all. My initial example indicated an "obvious" case of wintrading. There are wintraders that are under the impression that they are doing no wrong. Part of the reason they hold their beliefs is a big segment of the community collectively shrugs at their activities, which is basically what you are advocating for. I've confronted wintraders that say "yeah I wintrade, who cares? tons of people are doing it, why are you so mad about it?" These people should absolutely be publicly shamed for their bad behavior. It's important for the pvp community to condemn the wintraders and sympathizers so that their behavior is not further normalized. I don't think "calling out" people and creating a toxic environment helps anything or solves anything except perhaps brings me personal fulfillment from venting on them. I disagree. I think it's good, and I also don't think it creates a "toxic environment," whatever that means. We will probably have to agree to disagree here, but again, I hope you can at least appreciate that you are not objectively right about this; it's basically just a matter of preference. Edited March 19, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackPol Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 It’s never okay to be toxic, rude, offensive to others. It only feeds own ego and mostly ppl just have a rage at someone cos they can’t handle anything. Back in the past I would argue that it wasn’t the same. You see trolling other guilds or people whom you fight with in open world pvp is totally different from calling your own team autistic or just ****. Also the level on current insults is just lowest ever, same old crap, disabilities, kill yourself and yo mama. At least have some imagination... also it was done by both parties, means others were ok with it and engaged too. Smacking someone in a match is not the same. Same with sports, try to sign up fo rugby team and **** talk your own teammates, think you will learn quickly a thing or 2 about sports and teams. You ever see world class sportsman raging at their own team like a self entitled 12 year old ? Come to my gym and call your sparring partner one of those internet names and you get a warning slap:) or kicked out Maybe if people focused more on bettering themselves in all aspects they wouldn’t feel the need to belittle others. Anyway calling someone on their mistakes in normal manner is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 You see trolling other guilds or people whom you fight with in open world pvp is totally different from calling your own team autistic or just ****. Also the level on current insults is just lowest ever, same old crap, disabilities, kill yourself and yo mama. At least have some imagination... also it was done by both parties, means others were ok with it and engaged too. Smacking someone in a match is not the same. I think that everyone in this thread agrees that mindlessly insulting people, especially using slurs, disability language (not sure how to characterize that, but you know what I mean), and telling people to kill themselves is not acceptable behavior. That particular brand of toxicity is never okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I think that everyone in this thread agrees that mindlessly insulting people, especially using slurs, disability language (not sure how to characterize that, but you know what I mean), and telling people to kill themselves is not acceptable behavior. That particular brand of toxicity is never okay. What "brand of toxicity" is ok then? For some reason you want to pretend there are levels of toxicity and some types of toxicity is alright. Every adult in this room knows what toxicity is. Every logical thinking adult in this room also knows there's not some level of toxicity that is acceptable. Toxicity by definition is never acceptable in a game no matter what "brand of toxicity" it is. No idea what that even means tbh. It’s never okay to be toxic, rude, offensive to others. It only feeds own ego and mostly ppl just have a rage at someone cos they can’t handle anything. Back in the past I would argue that it wasn’t the same. You see trolling other guilds or people whom you fight with in open world pvp is totally different from calling your own team autistic or just ****. Also the level on current insults is just lowest ever, same old crap, disabilities, kill yourself and yo mama. At least have some imagination... also it was done by both parties, means others were ok with it and engaged too. Smacking someone in a match is not the same. Same with sports, try to sign up fo rugby team and **** talk your own teammates, think you will learn quickly a thing or 2 about sports and teams. You ever see world class sportsman raging at their own team like a self entitled 12 year old ? Come to my gym and call your sparring partner one of those internet names and you get a warning slap:) or kicked out Maybe if people focused more on bettering themselves in all aspects they wouldn’t feel the need to belittle others. Anyway calling someone on their mistakes in normal manner is different. This guy gets it. ^ I also agree that much of the toxic behavior occurs due to the protection anonymity grants us on games. This anonymity makes it so our poor behavior is largely unchecked and hard to hold accountable as it would be if we were face to face. Just like he said above, the majority of the people that are toxic and rage at others would never dare behave that way in person with others. This is why I don't go down that rabbit hole no matter how annoyed or angry someone makes me in a game. I stick to one rule with my interactions with other people in games, and that is to only say or do things I would face to face with someone else. Honestly that's why most toxicity spewed has little impact on me because I know IRL this anonymous manchild would never say any of the things they are typing out at me on their keyboard. The point is that others reading/hearing it can be negatively affected though. Personally I easily blow off insults and find the actual meltdown of someone humorous when someone rages at me, but just because I am impacted very little by someone exhibiting toxic behavior doesn't mean I think it ought to be a welcomed part of any game's culture. In a nutshell, if you think to yourself that something you feel like saying might be toxic, then don't bother typing/saying it. There's no gray area as to what toxic behavior is, it's not some mysterious phenomenon that changes day by day and the word "toxic" doesn't have multiple very different definitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banderal Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Woot! I topped 3.5K in a match today, which is a personal best for me, so that was nice. I mean, I was mostly allowed to free cast, but still. As I get a bit more experience in ranked, I find myself become an 'elitist". I mean, I'm by no means any good still... but when I see a fellow shadow successfully stealth out, get away, and run off to heal, and I'm thinking... COOL! And then he unstealths "RIGHT OUT IN THE OPEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MAP WHERE ANYONE LOOKING CAN SEE AND LEAP" to start healing... wth? Even *I* know to hide behind a box or something. Oh well, hopefully s/he learned from the experience (as the enemy operative made a bee-line for 'em and finished 'em off). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Woot! I topped 3.5K in a match today, which is a personal best for me, so that was nice. I mean, I was mostly allowed to free cast, but still. I mean, I'm by no means any good still... Humblebrag! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banderal Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Humblebrag! Heh, I don't think the 3.5K is a brag. I'm kind embarrassed that that's still my top. I've seen shadow/sin in my spec do 4K. Probably others "above my elo bracket" do even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Heh, I don't think the 3.5K is a brag. More humblebrag. ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 What "brand of toxicity" is ok then? The kind that isn't actually "toxic" but some people call "toxic" anyway. This is exactly why the word toxic is so useless lol. For some reason you want to pretend there are levels of toxicity and some types of toxicity is alright. There very clearly are levels of toxicity, even according to the way you define it. I'm sure that you would agree that telling someone to kill themselves is much more "toxic" than telling someone that they're stupid. Every adult in this room knows what toxicity is. Every logical thinking adult in this room also knows there's not some level of toxicity that is acceptable. This statement is simply nonsense and contrary to reality. But if you want to embrace this particular delusion, that's on you I guess. Honestly that's why most toxicity spewed has little impact on me because I know IRL this anonymous manchild would never say any of the things they are typing out at me on their keyboard. The point is that others reading/hearing it can be negatively affected though. More name calling. That's toxic. In a nutshell, if you think to yourself that something you feel like saying might be toxic, then don't bother typing/saying it. There's no gray area as to what toxic behavior is, it's not some mysterious phenomenon that changes day by day and the word "toxic" doesn't have multiple very different definitions. You're just wrong, and I've explained why many times, maybe read through the thread again. You shouldn't presume to morally lecture anyone, especially when you're actually wrong about this issue on so many levels. If you're wondering why I'm still responding, it's because I want people reading this thread to understand that you are not speaking for anyone but yourself. Your whole narrative about "all reasonable adults" is just not true, and frankly it's starting to annoy me. You have no basis for stating it, but you seem to think it's a great argument that gives you some kind of authority when you say it. It doesn't, because it's not true. I'll repeat the most important point once more for clarity: there is no agreed upon definition of "toxicity." In fact, the word is so variable, that I would guess no two people on earth would define it the same way. If I wrote up 100 statements and people had to label them toxic or not toxic, no one would produce identical answers to anyone else, let alone "all reasonable adults." Blanket statements about "no toxicity ever!" are therefore totally nonsensical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 The kind that isn't actually "toxic" but some people call "toxic" anyway. This is exactly why the word toxic is so useless lol. Words are only useless if people don't know what they mean. It seems only you struggle with understanding what "toxic" means. There very clearly are levels of toxicity, even according to the way you define it. I'm sure that you would agree that telling someone to kill themselves is much more "toxic" than telling someone that they're stupid. It doesn't matter if I think one word is "more toxic" than another word. That's why it's funny to me that you seem unable to determine what "toxic" means yet you show two clear examples of what being toxic is. There's no slightly toxic, medium toxicity, and top shelf toxicity or any other variations of toxicity. Either behavior is toxic, or it is not. You're just wrong, and I've explained why many times, maybe read through the thread again. You shouldn't presume to morally lecture anyone. I see, you think I am preaching from a place of perceived "moral high ground." I didn't think we were having a disagreement on what is morally or not morally acceptable instead we have been debating if the word "toxic" can be defined by people similarly or if there's some great mystery to what "toxic" really means. If you feel I have judged you, I don't know where you get that from because I have not. You have not used any personal examples of toxic behavior, and I have not said once that you were lesser than me because we seem to disagree on the supposed ambiguity of the word "toxic." I'll repeat the most important point once more for clarity: there is no agreed upon definition of "toxicity." In fact, the word is so variable. We just have to agree to disagree then. I find the word "toxic" quite exact in it's meaning and hardly ambiguous as you claim. Words have definitions and meaning so that we can communicate with one another and what "toxic" or "toxic behavior" is in a game is quite easy to describe, define, or recognize. toxic adjective tox·ic | \ ˈtäk-sik \ Definition of toxic (Entry 1 of 3) 1 : containing or being poisonous material especially when capable of causing death or serious debilitation toxic waste a toxic radioactive gas an insecticide highly toxic to birds 2 : exhibiting symptoms of infection or toxicosis the patient became toxic two days later 3 : extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful The definition is quite clear, and the only definition that could be applied to social interactions would be the 3rd definition... "extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful." I fail to see how this is confusing to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banderal Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Awesome, I now feel I have experienced the full solo ranked experience! Myself and another shadow got kicked for being "bads", by a couple players who organized with the other side to leave one of them alive long enough to do so. I feel so special. I also reported everyone involved. I have no idea if bioware will do anything. And I'm severally tempted to now throw every single match where I see one of them on my team. All that talk up there about toxicity. Yeah, this is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 (edited) Awesome, I now feel I have experienced the full solo ranked experience! Myself and another shadow got kicked for being "bads", by a couple players who organized with the other side to leave one of them alive long enough to do so. I feel so special. I also reported everyone involved. I have no idea if bioware will do anything. And I'm severally tempted to now throw every single match where I see one of them on my team. All that talk up there about toxicity. Yeah, this is it. Hey wait though. Maybe what you think was toxic, wasn't toxic to those guys? You know, the word "toxic" is confusing and has many different meanings to it. But to comment on that stuff, yeah it's frustrating, really frustrating. The thing is, all you need is to have it happen 4-5 times, and it's hard to just keep going and pretend nothing happened. I found ranked solo had far too many shenanigans going on last year and after multiple incidents where people were dropping matches etc., I just lost the patience to put up with it and stopped queuing. Edited March 20, 2019 by Lhancelot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrixxieTriss Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Awesome, I now feel I have experienced the full solo ranked experience! Myself and another shadow got kicked for being "bads", by a couple players who organized with the other side to leave one of them alive long enough to do so. I feel so special. I also reported everyone involved. I have no idea if bioware will do anything. And I'm severally tempted to now throw every single match where I see one of them on my team. All that talk up there about toxicity. Yeah, this is it. There shouldn’t be a kick option in ranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 (edited) Words are only useless if people don't know what they mean. It seems only you struggle with understanding what "toxic" means. We are using "toxic" in a way that it has not been used before. This is essentially a new word that has evolved over the last several years. I'll get into that more below. It doesn't matter if I think one word is "more toxic" than another word. That's why it's funny to me that you seem unable to determine what "toxic" means yet you show two clear examples of what being toxic is. There's no slightly toxic, medium toxicity, and top shelf toxicity or any other variations of toxicity. Either behavior is toxic, or it is not. Your conclusion does not follow from anything you said before it. There are clearly levels of toxicity, which again, when I say toxicity in this case, I'm granting you your definition, even though there are many possible definitions. That shouldn't be hard to understand. I see, you think I am preaching from a place of perceived "moral high ground." You are doing that. You claim that your opinion is held by all reasonable adults, and anyone that disagrees with you as an immature manchild. The arrogance on display in your responses is incredible. We just have to agree to disagree then. I find the word "toxic" quite exact in it's meaning and hardly ambiguous as you claim. Words have definitions and meaning so that we can communicate with one another and what "toxic" or "toxic behavior" is in a game is quite easy to describe, define, or recognize. toxic adjective tox·ic | \ ˈtäk-sik \ Definition of toxic (Entry 1 of 3) 1 : containing or being poisonous material especially when capable of causing death or serious debilitation toxic waste a toxic radioactive gas an insecticide highly toxic to birds 2 : exhibiting symptoms of infection or toxicosis the patient became toxic two days later 3 : extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful The definition is quite clear, and the only definition that could be applied to social interactions would be the 3rd definition... "extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful." I fail to see how this is confusing to you. The word toxic in the dictionary has nothing to do with the word "toxic" as used by the gaming community. I guess this is where all of your confusion stems from. Dictionaries are only repositories of how people actually use words, it's not a bible that actually defines words for all time. The word toxic only started being used in games over the last several years. The way it is used is totally divorced from the dictionary definition you cited. I'm kind of shocked I even have to point all of this out to you. I guarantee that if you provided dozens of examples of what you think are "toxic" words and behavior, you would find that many people would take issue with your assessments. The fact that you think "all reasonable adults" perfectly share your exact opinion is both delusional and wrong. Edited March 20, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banderal Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 ...all you need is to have it happen 4-5 times... Nope, just 1 time. It's just bullies kicking kids off "their" playground. If that's the way "we" want it, fine. I'm very good at sucking even more in ranked matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 On a separate note, I think this conversation between Lhance and I, with some others chiming in, beautifully illustrates the dangers of any kind of censorship. Letting one person, or even a handful of people, decide what is and is not permissible for people to say, all while claiming that it's a universal standard, never leads to the free expression of ideas. It's a tyrannical impulse to want to silence others. Obviously the First Amendment doesn't apply to this game, because Bioware is not the government, but its principles should still apply if we want anything approaching free speech in-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Nope, just 1 time. It's just bullies kicking kids off "their" playground. If that's the way "we" want it, fine. I'm very good at sucking even more in ranked matches. Those people were obviously wrong to kick you. But please don't let it get you down. You definitely don't suck. As for the kick feature itself, I've seen it used (and used it myself) to kick actual throwers, but when people use it to kick people that they just think are bad, that's an abuse of the feature. Would you mind pm'ing me the names of the people that kicked you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexsamma Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 (edited) Nope, just 1 time. It's just bullies kicking kids off "their" playground. If that's the way "we" want it, fine. I'm very good at sucking even more in ranked matches. A prime example of toxicity, at least in my opinion. [sarcasm]Of course it's valid since you haven't said anything spiteful and you feel vindicated since someone vote kicked you from a match. [/sarcasm] I'll once again re-iterate two points: Toxic behavior and attitudes are just as bad, if not worse, than toxic comments in chat. We all have our own definition for what qualifies as toxic. Edited March 20, 2019 by alexsamma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banderal Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 A prime example of toxicity, at least in my opinion. [sarcasm]Of course it's valid since you haven't said anything spiteful and you feel vindicated since someone vote kicked you from a match. [/sarcasm] I'll once again re-iterate two points: Toxic behavior and attitudes are just as bad, if not worse, than toxic comments in chat. We all have our own definition for what qualifies as toxic. I never claimed getting all "I'll get even" wasn't toxic. In fact... yep, I'm pretty toxic right now. Fully agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexsamma Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I never claimed getting all "I'll get even" wasn't toxic. In fact... yep, I'm pretty toxic right now. Fully agree. Well at least you own it. For real though, your posts up until now have displayed a fairly positive experience, don't let this one negative experience ruin it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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