Sometimes the light/dark choices don't make sense.

[Jedi_riches]

Yeah none of the ds/ls make sense most of the time, with thorus you are being judge jury and executioner to someone you had not heard of before and going on what dorne tells you and you have known her for all of what 5 minutes.

 

Other ones in the game make little sense to my trooper either you come across as hopelessly nieve or ruthlessly bloodthursty:-

 

1)Ord Mantel - while infiltrating a enemy stronghold looking for a wmd, you encounter 3 injured separatists who promise that they won't alert anyone on their way out of you let them go or kill them to silence them, why would you trust them to keep quiet? And isn't you mission much more important. There should have been a 3rd option to throw them in a cell to not kill them but not allow them to go free.

 

2) tatooine - another similar example is on tatooine, you get the co-ordinates to a imperial base from a imperial technician, who you can again let free or kill, why not have a option to tie him up and get you 2 remaining squad mates to pick him up to deliver to the authorities as again letting him free is a bit nieve to say the least.

 

But I feel one of the worst ones I have come across in all my time playing the game is the side quest on Ord mantel where you have to track down stolen medical supplies, you get ds points for following orders and returning it to the Republic and either ds or neutral points for giving it to the refugees, yes you can argue that the soldiers are corrupt and that the refugees need them but at the end of the day I think giving it to the refugees is the ds option, you are in fact aiding and abetting a criminal practice and giving stuff you don't own away that you know belongs to someone else, that is called Stealing.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Jedi_riches

[Darth_Advent]

This isn't quite as complicated in the way it's being made out. Star Wars is a universe with moral objectivity. It "has an opinion" on right and wrong through the context of the Force. The Force in Legends generally cares very little for motive or excuses versus actions and consequences and judges actions on the personal instead of the global scale. Life, harmony, and temperance are affiliated with the Light and death, passion, and impulse with the Dark. Whether or not you personally agree with it, certain actions demonstrably and physically make the Dark Side of the Force stronger. Even if you aren't sensitive to the Force, it flows through and suffuses your being nonetheless and your actions have repercussions throughout it.

 

You should be prepared that from time to time what you are very convinced based on your real life upbringing, cultural influence, and free agency of thought as "good" will be "bad" to the Force. Considering how often the worst things in Star Wars often start with people utterly convinced they are doing the right thing, it actually gels quite well with the franchise's traditional storytelling. The most dangerous Sith are less often wallowing in depravity than they are operating on an internally consistent system of personal oughts (morals) that are twisted into something alien to most sane people.

[LordVitalus]

This isn't quite as complicated in the way it's being made out. Star Wars is a universe with moral objectivity. It "has an opinion" on right and wrong through the context of the Force. The Force in Legends generally cares very little for motive or excuses versus actions and consequences and judges actions on the personal instead of the global scale. Life, harmony, and temperance are affiliated with the Light and death, passion, and impulse with the Dark. Whether or not you personally agree with it, certain actions demonstrably and physically make the Dark Side of the Force stronger. Even if you aren't sensitive to the Force, it flows through and suffuses your being nonetheless and your actions have repercussions throughout it.

 

You should be prepared that from time to time what you are very convinced based on your real life upbringing, cultural influence, and free agency of thought as "good" will be "bad" to the Force. Considering how often the worst things in Star Wars often start with people utterly convinced they are doing the right thing, it actually gels quite well with the franchise's traditional storytelling. The most dangerous Sith are less often wallowing in depravity than they are operating on an internally consistent system of personal oughts (morals) that are twisted into something alien to most sane people.

 

I agree. Light and Dark sides of the Force are one thing and morality is another. For example, in Episode 3 Sidious sent Vader to kill the separatist leaders to grow stronger in the Dark side. As I understand it, killing people leads to the Dark side no matter if it's selfish, altruistic or without logic.

[Celise]

I agree. Light and Dark sides of the Force are one thing and morality is another. For example, in Episode 3 Sidious sent Vader to kill the separatist leaders to grow stronger in the Dark side. As I understand it, killing people leads to the Dark side no matter if it's selfish, altruistic or without logic.

 

not always, killing someone who is suffering a slow lingering death and can not be saved anyway, it would be a mercy to end their suffering with a quick death.

[LordVitalus]

not always, killing someone who is suffering a slow lingering death and can not be saved anyway, it would be a mercy to end their suffering with a quick death.

 

That's a good example. In my opinion, killing him would be a choice aligned with the Dark side even if it is merciful and the right thing to do.

[TalleraLane]

It's known as extra-judicial killing, which is punishable as murder in most societies.

 

The right thing to do would be to ensure that he stood trial and the appropriate punishment is applied (quite likely the death penalty).

 

Becoming judge, jury and executioner is a pretty obvious "dark" thing to do.

 

Well said.

 

However there are other light/dark choices that do not make sense. In the end though this is only a game OP, just pick what's you feel is right for your character.

[vingmotor]

worst is for troopers. give medecine to troopers bad, give medicine to wierd cat lady and her boy,good.

and it keeps going like that for troopers.

[IoNonSoEVero]

That's a good example. In my opinion, killing him would be a choice aligned with the Dark side even if it is merciful and the right thing to do.

 

And that is exactly why I think that the "light side = good; dark side = bad" philosophy is so off. The light side eschews love, compassion and attachment, and sometimes those things are important. Sending someone off to be tortured or to die an agonizingly painful death instead of showing them a merciful way out is terrible, regardless if it's the "light side" choice.

[Celise]

worst is for troopers. give medecine to troopers bad, give medicine to wierd cat lady and her boy,good.

and it keeps going like that for troopers.

 

Civilians are always the priority over soldiers. What go would it do if you had a war where the soldiers didn't protect the innocent from harm? so millions were massacred needlessly and all that are left are soldiers with nothing left to protect.

 

The civilians getting medicine is more important, otherwise what the hell are the soldiers fighting for?

You hear it enough times from not just the trooper PC, but npc troopers and comps "For the Republic!", "In the name of the Galactic Republic, i order you to surrender!" and so on.. they fight for the republic and everyone in it. it is more a case of ethical responsibility.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Civilians are always the priority over soldiers. What go would it do if you had a war where the soldiers didn't protect the innocent from harm? so millions were massacred needlessly and all that are left are soldiers with nothing left to protect.

 

The civilians getting medicine is more important, otherwise what the hell are the soldiers fighting for?

You hear it enough times from not just the trooper PC, but npc troopers and comps "For the Republic!", "In the name of the Galactic Republic, i order you to surrender!" and so on.. they fight for the republic and everyone in it. it is more a case of ethical responsibility.

 

Yeah, I think the choices in that quest are aligned correctly. The civilians should get the medicine. Yes, they stole it, but the troopers have turned their planet into a war zone and they're literally living in a tent city and being completely ignored while the troopers are warm and dry in their base.

[MandFlurry]

And it's still not your decision to make. You would still be killing him out of revenge which is still dark side.

 

Your opinion, is just that , subjective. Not because he was killed does not mean it was done out of hatred.

[bluehufsa]

It's known as extra-judicial killing, which is punishable as murder in most societies.

 

The right thing to do would be to ensure that he stood trial and the appropriate punishment is applied (quite likely the death penalty).

 

Becoming judge, jury and executioner is a pretty obvious "dark" thing to do.

 

That's exactly what Arcann does: you are not put on trial,you are not allowed to defend yourself, you are just frozen and that's it.

Why, i still don't understand: he obviously detested his old man and wanted the Throne for himself, why keep you as a trophy when he could have secretly let u go and then tell the Zakuulans you were executed or something? After all, you came there to kill the Sith Emperor, not to kaboom generators, murder civilians & recruit all sorts of people .

Basically, you did what Arcann couldn't , so he should be grateful,not vindictive.

 

After all of this, i think you are entitled to pay him back in the same way : no trial,no judges, no fair sentencing.

Edited November 19, 2018 by bluehufsa

[Celise]

Valkorion exposed a flaw in Arcann's personality. Arcann clearly had no love for his father, but when Arcann said to Valkorion if he was surprised by Arcann's ambition. Valkorion refuted the point and brought up another that it is jealousy that drive Arcann when special attention was lavished on the outlander and the outlander refused it.

 

Arcann is petty, vindictive, he believes himself the center of the universe. So when it came to devotion from his allies, he had to force the devotion because he didn't have time for it as far as he is concerned in lavishing attention on others and hoping they will follow him to the ends of the galaxy.

 

When the outlander escaped and built their own alliance and had ready and willing devoted allies, Arcann was jealous how the outlander managed it and his petty and vindictive side kicked in, he wanted to destroy everything the outlander had built up because it is so much better than what he built up and wanted to make the outlander feel his suffering.

 

Arcann should be pitied as his entire life was built on torment and torture from a Father who paid little to no attention to him or Thexan, but ultimately this hatred built up over that time as Arcann grew up. His whole life was a lie as all Vakorion wanted was an angry vicious weapon in Arcann as much as Vaylin. Just because Arcann acts the way he does, doesn't mean you can't throw some love his way and help temper the monster he was designed to be by Valkorion.

 

Regardless though, Arcann did order the execution of millions of people to make a point, under the influence of his own power or not, he has to answer for that by a fair trial which is more than his victims got.

[Nefla]

Yeah some of the DS/LS choices don't make a lot of sense to me. For example as a sith inquisitor on Belsavis, the mother machine tells you she was enslaved and her children taken away and used for slaves and asks you to free her. Your character knows how it feels to be enslaved and the mother machine has been nothing but kind and helpful to you and yet freeing her is the DS option I guess because she goes on to kill those who enslaved her but she didn't tell you beforehand she was going to do that so why is it DS on your part? At least you're given the option after she tells you what she did to be like "wait you never said you were going to kill them!" Keeping her enslaved is the LS option Some other times is when it's weird and contradictory such as it being a DS option to kill Thorus but being a LS option to kill Paladius. There's also the fact that if you flirt with anyone (including your companion) as a Jedi Knight it's a DS option but if you do so as a Sith it's not (I feel like it wasn't as a Jedi Consular either at least with Felix Iresso but it's been a while). .

[Nefla]

Civilians are always the priority over soldiers. What go would it do if you had a war where the soldiers didn't protect the innocent from harm? so millions were massacred needlessly and all that are left are soldiers with nothing left to protect.

 

The civilians getting medicine is more important, otherwise what the hell are the soldiers fighting for?

You hear it enough times from not just the trooper PC, but npc troopers and comps "For the Republic!", "In the name of the Galactic Republic, i order you to surrender!" and so on.. they fight for the republic and everyone in it. it is more a case of ethical responsibility.

Why it doesn't make sense IMO for giving the medicine back to the soldiers to be a DS option is that you're not being corrupt or evil, you're prioritizing saving one group over another but it's not out of hatred or malice. It could be as simple as you brought it back to the rightful owner because it was stolen or it could be because you believe more soldiers being saved will in turn be able to save more civilians. That being said, I'm not sure giving the medicine back to the soldiers WAS a DS choice, it may have been a neutral choice I don't remember but if so I think that's fitting.

[Paulsutherland]

There are a few that stick out to me. As Nefia just said the dark side choice by the Inquisitor to Ashaa, the mother machine was odd. Surely it would have been a light side choice to free her? Not that I'm complaining ... that thing is god as far as I'm concerned and it thinks it owes me a favour. I want to cash in on that favour!

 

"You're beyond redemption" ... My shadow spent the best part of her career as a Jedi saving those being influenced by the dark side ... yet when she gets to Vaylin she doesn't even bother to try. Where was my magic box?!

[Celise]

Yeah some of the DS/LS choices don't make a lot of sense to me. For example as a sith inquisitor on Belsavis, the mother machine tells you she was enslaved and her children taken away and used for slaves and asks you to free her. Your character knows how it feels to be enslaved and the mother machine has been nothing but kind and helpful to you and yet freeing her is the DS option I guess because she goes on to kill those who enslaved her but she didn't tell you beforehand she was going to do that so why is it DS on your part? At least you're given the option after she tells you what she did to be like "wait you never said you were going to kill them!" Keeping her enslaved is the LS option Some other times is when it's weird and contradictory such as it being a DS option to kill Thorus but being a LS option to kill Paladius. There's also the fact that if you flirt with anyone (including your companion) as a Jedi Knight it's a DS option but if you do so as a Sith it's not (I feel like it wasn't as a Jedi Consular either at least with Felix Iresso but it's been a while). .

 

The Problem with the machine mother is that she can create a new race of beings, and if vengence is the only thing on her mind, how far do you think she'd go to get to her target? target fixation will become an issue before too long and ally and enemy alike are going to be swept aside all in the name of the mother machines revenge.

 

Also what happens after she has her revenge? the species she created is alive and well and she'd do anything to protect them, even if it means creating another species to defend them. She could theoretically repurpose the galaxy.. heck the universe to her own desires, by creating a race of warriors that brutally massacre every other species so she can rebuild it how she likes.

 

Long term consequences are far more dangerous than forcing her to build one body that will only last a few decades at most to a character that still has an impact to make in one galaxy, but one that will never be as potentially brutal as what the mother machine could manage.

 

The JK flirting goes against the Jedi code, a fling could lead to emotional entanglements which could lead to rejection or hard feelings on a break up, not to mention arguements and what not. by giving into to such passionate emotions it can easily run down the side of dark.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Celise

[bluehufsa]

Regardless though, Arcann did order the execution of millions of people to make a point, under the influence of his own power or not, he has to answer for that by a fair trial which is more than his victims got.

 

A fair trial is not an option because :

 

1. where would you find a fair & unbiased judge, since all the Factions have plenty of reasons to hate his guts?

2. where would you find a fair & unbiased jury? pick a random twilek dancer from Mos Ila cantina? dude selling stims outside Dromund Kaas airport?

3. let's say he is found not guilty & send home, do you really think the Empire,the refugees from Swamp, Indo Zal & his people and the Republic will be pleased and accept the verdict?

4. the Senya factor: let's say the jury finds the defendant guilty and either sentences him to death or imprisonment. do you really see Senya accepting this? cause i don't. i imagine her lashing out and killing everyone, because she obviously doesn't care about anyone else but her son. gotta say, such devotion is admirable, but deviant & misplaced .

[Celise]

A fair trial is not an option because :

 

1. where would you find a fair & unbiased judge, since all the Factions have plenty of reasons to hate his guts?

2. where would you find a fair & unbiased jury? pick a random twilek dancer from Mos Ila cantina? dude selling stims outside Dromund Kaas airport?

3. let's say he is found not guilty & send home, do you really think the Empire,the refugees from Swamp, Indo Zal & his people and the Republic will be pleased and accept the verdict?

4. the Senya factor: let's say the jury finds the defendant guilty and either sentences him to death or imprisonment. do you really see Senya accepting this? cause i don't. i imagine her lashing out and killing everyone, because she obviously doesn't care about anyone else but her son. gotta say, such devotion is admirable, but deviant & misplaced .

 

1. The Rift Alliance, the Hutts, the Rishi pirates, the Adzosec hegemony, Corsec.. i can think of other factions that can provide an impartial magistrate to oversee the proceedings.

2. The jury will have to be reputable enough, so a random twi'lek dancer for example could be called up so long as she has no criminal record and has no stake in the conflict with the EE. any random person would be chosen so long as they are vetted properly.

3. that matters not one jot. They have to respect it regardless of how detestable it is otherwise it would call into question their own legal practices and that is something they won't do.

4. Senya accepted that her son was lost to her for a while, she is a strong woman and she was a knight, she knows that her son will have to face trial for what he done and she can't hide him from the mess he has created either. Senya isn't Vaylin, she won't kill innocent people and unsettle a redeemed Arcann simply because she doesn't like the result. Senya has always respected the system and her principles.

[bluehufsa]

1. The Rift Alliance, the Hutts, the Rishi pirates, the Adzosec hegemony, Corsec.. i can think of other factions that can provide an impartial magistrate to oversee the proceedings.

.

 

One problem : with two exceptions ( The Rift Alliance & Corsec) the other factions you have mentioned are not reputable, have criminal records & have broken the laws on countless occasions, so they should not count as providing a magistrate, unless the trial is a botched one from start.

 

But let's go back to the topic: if your Outlander wants to throw some love & temper a monster because of the Living Force, Jedi principles & Force alignment, i respect that.

I have one question tho : As a devoted Light Sider, what would your Outlander tell to the victims & survivors? The Jedi Code? Explain them how the Light Side is sometimes a bit hard to understand and somehow forgiving the criminal does justice for the victims?

Edited November 19, 2018 by bluehufsa

[Celise]

I don't think there is a faction out there that hasn't had some form of conflict and criminal actitivity in their time, but that is besides the point. The Hutts are power by themselves, they have their own laws and values and are greatly respected in the galaxy.

 

The Advosec are known in the galaxy and just because one leader decided to steal a republic station doesn't mean the rest of the hegemony is the same.

 

The Pirates do have their own laws but they are neutral and can serve if they are compensated well enough.

 

those are just examples, if you have some? please chime in.

[bluehufsa]

I don't think there is a faction out there that hasn't had some form of conflict and criminal actitivity in their time, but that is besides the point. The Hutts are power by themselves, they have their own laws and values and are greatly respected in the galaxy.

 

The Advosec are known in the galaxy and just because one leader decided to steal a republic station doesn't mean the rest of the hegemony is the same.

 

The Pirates do have their own laws but they are neutral and can serve if they are compensated well enough.

 

those are just examples, if you have some? please chime in.

 

Your Outlander should candidate for Supreme Chancellor ( learning to give inspirational speeches about beacons of light might be useful too, just sayin')

Edited November 19, 2018 by bluehufsa

[Paulsutherland]

Your Outlander should candidate for Supreme Chancellor ( learning to give inspirational speeches about beacons of light might be useful too, just sayin')

 

And the new Chancellor of the Republic is .... Darth Nox.

[IoNonSoEVero]

But let's go back to the topic: if your Outlander wants to throw some love & temper a monster because of the Living Force, Jedi principles & Force alignment, i respect that.

I have one question tho : As a devoted Light Sider, what would your Outlander tell to the victims & survivors? The Jedi Code? Explain them how the Light Side is sometimes a bit hard to understand and somehow forgiving the criminal does justice for the victims?

 

I agree with this completely. I respect other people's decisions to do what they want in their own stories, but as far as I am concerned in my own stories, the only thing Arcann deserves is a swift execution. I have no love or compassion to spare for him and I really don't care about his childhood sob story; my PCs give that love, compassion and justice to the millions who were his victims.

 

Having said that, I think the choices they have given with other characters (kill, forgive, exile or put on trial/in prison) are fairer and account for a much wider variety of Outlanders and choices they'd make. Giving an option to imprison Arcann and send him to trial would have been a perfectly reasonable third option.

Edited November 19, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Nefla]

The Problem with the machine mother is that she can create a new race of beings, and if vengence is the only thing on her mind, how far do you think she'd go to get to her target? target fixation will become an issue before too long and ally and enemy alike are going to be swept aside all in the name of the mother machines revenge.

 

Also what happens after she has her revenge? the species she created is alive and well and she'd do anything to protect them, even if it means creating another species to defend them. She could theoretically repurpose the galaxy.. heck the universe to her own desires, by creating a race of warriors that brutally massacre every other species so she can rebuild it how she likes.

 

Long term consequences are far more dangerous than forcing her to build one body that will only last a few decades at most to a character that still has an impact to make in one galaxy, but one that will never be as potentially brutal as what the mother machine could manage.

 

The JK flirting goes against the Jedi code, a fling could lead to emotional entanglements which could lead to rejection or hard feelings on a break up, not to mention arguements and what not. by giving into to such passionate emotions it can easily run down the side of dark.

You're arguing potential unforeseen consequences, I'm arguing whether the choice makes your character dark or light and in my opinion freeing a slave is something that would be done by someone with an innocent and compassionate heart and not a dark and evil one. Forcing and subjugating an already suffering being is the dark and evil option. The mother machine's actions afterwards are certainly dark side but her choice is not your choice. Most of the time when you're a sith and you encounter a jedi, they try and fight you to the death but a few times you can talk them into letting you go peacefully ex: the sith warrior coming to an agreement with Jaessa's parents and setting them up for life. In this scenario the jedi protecting them wants to fight you and prevent you from taking them but since you came to a consensual peaceful agreement he decides it would be wrong to attack you. At a different point in the same story you encounter two jedi and one of them refuses to attack you if you're peaceful. After those encounters your SW can go on to be a complete monster and murder tons of people. Are the jedi who decided to let you go in peace now DS because your character committed atrocities after you parted ways? No. Freeing a slave does not become an evil action because that slave goes on to commit murder unbeknownst to you.

 

A sith flirting could lead to all of the same things as a jedi flirting (Darth Malgus anyone?) and yet the jedi get DS points while the sith don't. If simply going against the jedi code were DS then why don't our jedi characters get DS points when they express strong emotions instead of peace? No DS points for mourning the dead instead of calmly accepting that they are now part of the force either. Why don't sith get DS points for not following the jedi code to begin with? Plus later on the flirts stop giving DS points.