A perplexing thing

[Nefla]

You are undoubtedly right about the player's age affecting how they see the romances, though I'm pretty sure gender is a factor as well.

 

Personally, I can't think of the player characters as the age they are supposed to be. They all have much older voice actors and none are written as inexperienced or naive. They all come across to me as 30+. The female love interests I have issues with sound young and act young. They come across to me as <16. (And being immature for their age doesn't make the relationship any more palatable.) So, just like I can't take seriously the age listed for Talos, I can't take seriously the ages listed for the pcs or some of the companions.

The female companion VAs are older as well, even Nadia's voice actor is older than I am, she was born in 1976. I can see how the gender of the character would have an effect on their perceived age based on their voice since men go through an obvious voice change during puberty and women don't. The PC age fits in my book for all the classes except the Bounty Hunter of both genders who sounds really mature and acts very experienced and the male consular's voice is also way too physically old and mature sounding for a late-teen. I feel like the goal behind that performance was "wise old sage" without caring about the actual story context. I agree that Talos' supposed age is ridiculous and Quinn's as well.

[Kiesu]

The female companion VAs are older as well, even Nadia's voice actor is older than I am, she was born in 1976. I can see how the gender of the character would have an effect on their perceived age based on their voice since men go through an obvious voice change during puberty and women don't. The PC age fits in my book for all the classes except the Bounty Hunter of both genders who sounds really mature and acts very experienced and the male consular's voice is also way too physically old and mature sounding for a late-teen. I feel like the goal behind that performance was "wise old sage" without caring about the actual story context. I agree that Talos' supposed age is ridiculous and Quinn's as well.

Haha I can't disagree on some of the voices not matching intended ages... Talos is voiced by Edward Hibbert who was born in -55. And yeah, men go trough voice change during puberty, hence the highly popular trend of using female voice actors to voice teenage boys in films. So if you're looking to reflect characters to their voice actor,

...

 

I'm surprised nobody has been rooting for any Timmns romance, he would have been strait up my alley.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Kiesu

[Xina_LA]

While I agree with the sentiment, the final defeat of Valkorion was more of a personal victory, and took place entirely within the PC's mind.

Satele Shan mentioned that Jedi felt it, I imagine Sith felt it, too. Plus, it came right after defeating Vaylin, which also deserved some kind of celebration. Zakuul stopped being an enemy and occupying other planets, so every occupied world suddenly saw reason to celebrate. There was evidence of a serious shift toward peace all over the galaxy, so the effects weren't just in my character's mind.

 

At the very least, our spouse and personal friends could have shared a few celebratory drinks with us in the cantina.

[AlrikFassbauer]

The female companion VAs are older as well, even Nadia's voice actor is older than I am, she was born in 1976.

 

German-language SWTOR apparingly seems to have much younger sounding voices. I don't know about the actors / acresses, though. I don't even think they are listed in German-language SWTOR credits ?

 

With the exception of the Jedi Knight and possibly the female Sith Inquisitor, I can't see any of them as being teenagers or early 20s. They all sound and are scripted with a lot of maturity. I feel like they all have to be at least mid-20s with 30+ being perfectly reasonable.

 

Which really makes me feel uneasy, because most female romanceable companions sound (at least in German-language SWTOR) as if they were in the 20s or even younger.

 

Me, as someone over 35 years, definitively, it just feels wrong to be able to romance such a young person.

 

But - there's a song by Peter Gabriel called "The Barry Williams Show" in which he wrote : "not a wrinkle on her face - you would not believe the plot she conceived".

Meaning that even younger people are able to act more mature.

 

My guess these days is that in the beginning of the game development, there was an " age target group" laid out, and the game developed - modelled - specific for that age target group

Edited September 15, 2018 by AlrikFassbauer

[Ardrossan]

I'm surprised nobody has been rooting for any Timmns romance, he would have been strait up my alley.

 

Don't be vulgar.

[Aeneas_Falco]

Yeah, right now the only male Force user available is Arcann. That obviously isn't going to work for everyone, and it isn't even until after the bulk of the story content currently available.

 

In retrsospect Theron and Lana should probably have been the opposite gender. The KotFE companion who was involved with Sith Intelligence should have been male, and the KotFE companion from the SiS who was a descendant of Revan should have been female. Also that male replacement for Lana should probably have also been an alien.

 

There are some reeeeaaaaalllly problematic things with the uneven power balance with most of the female love interests, for sure. With only a few exceptions they're all really young and in some sort of subservient position to the male character.

 

It is almost all of them really, at least as far as subservient personalities. Kira is the lone exception. She's the only force using companion pre-Lana who feels like a peer in her interaction with the player character, even if she holds a lower rank.

[casirabit]

What is sad, is that they have made an exception for a companion that could be killed (Arcann) and the others that can be killed are still not heard from. I don't think that is really fair. While some like Arcann and that is great that they can romance him what about the others that have been killed yet removed from the story? Fair? I don't think so especially those that people have had a romance with.

[Ardrossan]

It is almost all of them really, at least as far as subservient personalities. Kira is the lone exception. She's the only force using companion pre-Lana who feels like a peer in her interaction with the player character, even if she holds a lower rank.

 

Although it's possible to play your character off as being a nice guy who respects Kira, most of the dialogue options continually reinforce how lesser she is to you. Even [or especially] as a LS Jedi you can still be unbearably condescending to her.

 

As far as male PC/ Female comp romances with little to no power dynamics or creepy age imbalances, Risha's and Akaavi's are both pretty good. Akaavi spends most of her time negging you, and Risha actually has another guy on the side. I also thought Kaliyo's was pretty good, though admittedly that doesn't suit everybody's tastes.

[IoNonSoEVero]

In retrsospect Theron and Lana should probably have been the opposite gender. The KotFE companion who was involved with Sith Intelligence should have been male, and the KotFE companion from the SiS who was a descendant of Revan should have been female. Also that male replacement for Lana should probably have also been an alien.

 

I can't agree with this one at all. The mommy and daddy issues that Theron has would have been different, and for Makeb the F/F option was Republic and the M/M one was Imperial. They had to alternate.

 

Plus, like them or hate them, IMHO Lana and Theron are both very compelling characters as they are.

 

What they should have really done is made the class stories better and written in some decent male Force users as romanceable companions. There could have been Praven or Scourge for the JK, or they could have kept Urtel Morten alive for the Sith Inquisitor. The Sith Warrior comes across a bunch of male Force users too - another Sith on Alderaan, Rathari, etc. The Imperial Agent could have met a Sith defecting from Jadus, The smuggler meets several Force users and could have taken one on board for a romance instead of Guss Tuno.

 

Or, in KOTFE, they could have added a defecting male Knight of Zakuul or new Jedi/Sith male character as an option.

[Goreshaga]

In retrsospect Theron and Lana should probably have been the opposite gender. The KotFE companion who was involved with Sith Intelligence should have been male, and the KotFE companion from the SiS who was a descendant of Revan should have been female. Also that male replacement for Lana should probably have also been an alien.

I'm perfectly fine the way they are.

And i actually could not care less about Theron not being a FU, as he has other skills.

[Lunafox]

In retrsospect Theron and Lana should probably have been the opposite gender. The KotFE companion who was involved with Sith Intelligence should have been male, and the KotFE companion from the SiS who was a descendant of Revan should have been female. Also that male replacement for Lana should probably have also been an alien.

 

 

 

It is almost all of them really, at least as far as subservient personalities. Kira is the lone exception. She's the only force using companion pre-Lana who feels like a peer in her interaction with the player character, even if she holds a lower rank.

 

I like them the way they are. It made sense and gave them their unique issues and personality. I don't think Imperials would replace a human/Sith with an alien. Aliens are substandard to the Empire and very few would reach a position of prominence where they'd be able to tell a human/Sith what to do. And Kira isn't the only one that isn't subservient. Ashara thinks she's better than the PC and constantly whines and wheedles about her precious Jedi. As some might know, I really needed to be able to put her out of an airlock while going to lightspeed.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Lunafox

[Goreshaga]

And Kira isn't the only one that isn't subservient. Ashara thinks she's better than the PC and constantly whines and wheedles about her precious Jedi. As some might know, I really needed to be able to put her out of an airlock while going to lightspeed.

And at least Kira was able to free herself from Vitiate's influence, that is something very few people can brag about.

 

Ashara thinks she's so special while she never actually did anything to prove it...

Hm, i'd love to have that option with her, but letting her rot on Taris would be just as enjoyable, and at least i'd not have to listen to her more than needed

Edited September 15, 2018 by Goreshaga

[OldVengeance]

Ashara is the most confusing character in the game to me. She seems to alternate wildly in perspective from scene to scene, adopt attitudes about other people that have little basis in reality and appears to exist only in a world where the Inquisitor is LS, even though she has dialogue for both alignments.

 

She angrily and defiantly refuses to follow your teachings if they contradict the Jedi teaching, then says you taught her a lot. If she doesn't want to follow Sith teaching, then why is she even here?

 

Sometimes she says she's still a Jedi other times she seems to say she's not a Jedi. Sometimes she says the Jedi are weak and need to be more extreme in fighting Sith and then says those extremist Jedi are the people they need to form an Alliance with to make peace.

 

She seems to have no motivation to join you other than the fact that the Inquisitor appeared and killed her Masters (either in self defense or on purpose) and she thinks she has nowhere else to go.

 

I honestly have almost no idea what her thought process is for any of this.

Edited September 15, 2018 by OldVengeance

[IoNonSoEVero]

I would say that Kira, Risha, Akaavi and Kaliyo are the ones that do not come across as having a drastic power imbalance IMHO. With all the others...well, yeah, we've already talked about that.

 

Ashara talks back but she's also in a subordinate position because she's vulnerable (she has nowhere to go if you kick her off the ship since the Jedi aren't cool with her anymore), she's confused and looks to the PC for guidance (the endless talks about Jedi vs. Sith and not knowing where she stands on anything about the Force anymore), she's naive and doesn't seem to have had any real-world experiences (she asks the PC to teach her to play basic games in one scene) and unless your character is also 20 years old or so, she's probably younger than them.

Edited September 15, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Nefla]

Ashara is the most confusing character in the game to me. She seems to alternate wildly in perspective from scene to scene, adopt attitudes about other people that have little basis in reality and appears to exist only in a world where the Inquisitor is LS, even though she has dialogue for both alignments.

 

She angrily and defiantly refuses to follow your teachings if they contradict the Jedi teaching, then says you taught her a lot. If she doesn't want to follow Sith teaching, then why is she even here?

 

Sometimes she says she's still a Jedi other times she seems to say she's not a Jedi. Sometimes she says the Jedi are weak and need to be more extreme in fighting Sith and then says those extremist Jedi are the people they need to form an Alliance with to make peace.

 

She seems to have no motivation to join you other than the fact that the Inquisitor appeared and killed her Masters (either in self defense or on purpose) and she thinks she has nowhere else to go.

 

I honestly have almost no idea what her thought process is for any of this.

Yeah, some of the classes feel like they were written with a certain alignment (or even species) in mind and IMO Sith Inquisitor story seems like it was written for a LS inquisitor.

 

I like them the way they are. It made sense and gave them their unique issues and personality. I don't think Imperials would replace a human/Sith with an alien. Aliens are substandard to the Empire and very few would reach a position of prominence where they'd be able to tell a human/Sith what to do. And Kira isn't the only one that isn't subservient. Ashara thinks she's better than the PC and constantly whines and wheedles about her precious Jedi. As some might know, I really needed to be able to put her out of an airlock while going to lightspeed.

Yeah, the only "alien" that it would make sense for male Lana replacement to be is a Sith Pureblood (which reminds me of this scene on Belsavis where my Pureblood SW goes up to this imperial alien relations guy and says something like "I trust you're treating us aliens with the same respect you would humans?" lololol)

 

I don't see Ashara as subservient either though I like her more than you do lol

 

What is sad, is that they have made an exception for a companion that could be killed (Arcann) and the others that can be killed are still not heard from. I don't think that is really fair. While some like Arcann and that is great that they can romance him what about the others that have been killed yet removed from the story? Fair? I don't think so especially those that people have had a romance with.

Well, when you take into account the fact that those who romanced Arcann got exactly two short scenes with him vs all the scenes Theron, Lana, Koth, and the vanilla companions got throughout the game, you can't honestly say you believe things are skewed in favor of Arcann's romance (or friendship). I think if anything it's a good sign that they may reverse their apparent "anyone who can be killed must remain a silent and absent cardboard cutout forever" rule.

 

Haha I can't disagree on some of the voices not matching intended ages... Talos is voiced by Edward Hibbert who was born in -55. And yeah, men go trough voice change during puberty, hence the highly popular trend of using female voice actors to voice teenage boys in films. So if you're looking to reflect characters to their voice actor,

...

 

I'm surprised nobody has been rooting for any Timmns romance, he would have been strait up my alley.

Hey, I'd have a fling with Master Timmns lol

[Lunafox]

And at least Kira was able to free herself from Vitiate's influence, that is something very few people can brag about.

 

Ashara thinks she's so special while she never actually did anything to prove it...

Hm, i'd love to have that option with her, but letting her rot on Taris would be just as enjoyable, and at least i'd not have to listen to her more than needed

 

Yes exactly. Kira showed that she had something special going for her, and that she was actually a strong mind. And yeah, leaving Ashara on Taris would've been fine too. I totally see my Dark V Sorceress getting the ghost and killing her when she was done.

 

Yeah, the only "alien" that it would make sense for male Lana replacement to be is a Sith Pureblood (which reminds me of this scene on Belsavis where my Pureblood SW goes up to this imperial alien relations guy and says something like "I trust you're treating us aliens with the same respect you would humans?" lololol)

 

I don't see Ashara as subservient either though I like her more than you do lol

 

 

Hey, I'd have a fling with Master Timmns lol

 

I think you're right, they did write some scenes in mind thinking that most would play a certain type in the class. He hee, I'm pretty sure a Pureblood couldn't give two craps about aliens lol.

 

Subservient for her might not be the right word. Meely, annoying...those are better. And yes, if you like her, you're liable to be more understanding of her.

 

And hell to the heck no. Master Timmns was another character I hated. I would've loved to ring his neck. Grrrr. He made me mad lol.

[Damask_Rose]

I don't see Ashara as subservient either though I like her more than you do lol

 

She is your apprentice, which automatically makes her subservient to you. That is the way both the Jedi and Sith power structures work. If you prefer, you could refer to her as a deferential subordinate. Now, she is also a vain, delusional addlepate, but that's another issue...

[OldVengeance]

I think the other problem with Ashara was that she was, out of the four LI apprentices, the one with by far the least amount of importance that the narrative invested in her.

 

You meet Kira on Tython and are developing your working relationship with her from Coruscant on.

 

Her transition to Jedi Apprentice is a little abrupt, but Nadia and her father are important recurring characters on your ship throughout all of Act 2 and that continues into Act 3.

 

An entirety chapter of the Sith Warrior storyline is dedicated specifically to building up how important Jaesa Wilsaam is to both Jedi and Sith.

 

Ashara is a character who first hear about on Taris. And she sort of comes across as an above average duelist that is mostly important for helping you gain access to the real reason you came to Taris.

Edited September 16, 2018 by OldVengeance

[Nefla]

She is your apprentice, which automatically makes her subservient to you. That is the way both the Jedi and Sith power structures work. If you prefer, you could refer to her as a deferential subordinate. Now, she is also a vain, delusional addlepate, but that's another issue...

It's not like she's forced to stay with you, she's not your slave or your employee. She's not submissive or blindly obedient. With a LS inquisitor she clearly found someone who can teach her some useful things, I don't know about DS since my one DS inquisitor hasn't met her yet but IMO it doesn't feel like the inquisitor class was written with a DS character in mind. Khem is a much better example of subservient IMO since he is literally your slave and you have even bound his will so even if he has an opening to escape he can't. Also Quinn.

 

It seems a lot of you guys view the jedi/padawan dynamic as like a master/servant dynamic, but I really don't see it that way. I take it at face value: someone more experienced teaching someone less experienced. It's not like the master could like ruin the padawan's reputation and make it so they can "never work in this town again" or become a pariah or something if the padawan didn't do whatever the master commanded. If the padawan went to the jedi council (or probably any other random jedi) and was like "my master is trying to sexually seduce me" or "my master kills innocent people and told me to cover it up" or whatever I guarantee you the jedi would take that very seriously and not be like "master ___ is great, you're just a lowly grunt!"

[Ardrossan]

Someone, maybe Seelvir, had a theory that the interactions with Ashara were intended to showcase how manipulative the inquisitor is, that here we have someone who thinks she's a Jedi but is being led to do un-Jedi like things, and eventually to embrace certain Sith teachings [ie. the 'peace is a lie' convo].

 

That there was little to no option to 'break' her once aboard the ship might annoy Luna, but it's actually pretty much the case with a lot of these DS romances, including Vette and DS Jaesa. You can shock Vette, but she stops caring after a while, and if you don't do exactly what DS Jaesa wants then she pouts. I find Jaesa to be significantly more irritating that Ashara. The only rationale I can headcanon is that abducting her at the end of chapter one drives her crazy, and now she's just this unstable DS mess.

[Goreshaga]

It's not like she's forced to stay with you, she's not your slave or your employee. She's not submissive or blindly obedient. With a LS inquisitor she clearly found someone who can teach her some useful things, I don't know about DS since my one DS inquisitor hasn't met her yet but IMO it doesn't feel like the inquisitor class was written with a DS character in mind. Khem is a much better example of subservient IMO since he is literally your slave and you have even bound his will so even if he has an opening to escape he can't. Also Quinn.

Hm, i've played both a LS 5 Imperious and a DS 5 Nox, and Ashara is the same wether you're LS or DS she never knows what she wants, one days you're the greatest being in the galaxy and the worst the next day...

And i felt the story really out of place sometimes with my Imperious, while i never got that feeling with my Nox, so i'd not say it was meant for a LS SI.

 

About Khem, yeah he is bound to you, but he never tries to hide at the begining that he'd kill you if he could. Things evolve then as he starts to respect the SI, and after that he's consistent in his relationship with the SI while Ashara is always between devotion and hate it seems.

[OldVengeance]

Hm, i've played both a LS 5 Imperious and a DS 5 Nox, and Ashara is the same wether you're LS or DS she never knows what she wants, one days you're the greatest being in the galaxy and the worst the next day...

And i felt the story really out of place sometimes with my Imperious, while i never got that feeling with my Nox, so i'd not say it was meant for a LS SI.

 

Really? There is a scene where she says she knows that you are a good person based on your actions, and you don't have any option to contradict her or ask what she means.

[Kiesu]

I think the other problem with Ashara was that she was, out of the four LI apprentices, the one with by far the least amount of importance that the narrative invested in her.

 

You meet Kira on Tython and are developing your working relationship with her from Coruscant on.

 

Her transition to Jedi Apprentice is a little abrupt, but Nadia and her father are important recurring characters on your ship throughout all of Act 2 and that continues into Act 3.

 

An entirety chapter of the Sith Warrior storyline is dedicated specifically to building up how important Jaesa Wilsaam is to both Jedi and Sith.

 

Ashara is a character who first hear about on Taris. And she sort of comes across as an above average duelist that is mostly important for helping you gain access to the real reason you came to Taris.

Yes I agree with this. The other apprentices are taken seriously and you getting Xalek on inq is being

tooted around for a a good while too before you finally receive him from acolyte trials. He was supposed to be your actual apprentice, we never planned on having Ashara which I thought was a neat development in on itself. Unfortunately Xalek has amazingly forgottable personality and when talking about apprentices people usually default to Ashara like she was supposed to be our actual apprentice.

 

Yeah, some of the classes feel like they were written with a certain alignment (or even species) in mind and IMO Sith Inquisitor story seems like it was written for a LS inquisitor.

I've made a couple dark Consulars and that story is a complete mess played DS. You can't keep the radical act up constantly just when there is DS option available so there is a weird disconnect going on constantly on supposed DS consular writing, like they'd just have moodswings to do bad stuff every once a while rather than consistently feel they're on the right doing questionable stuff.

 

And hell to the heck no. Master Timmns was another character I hated. I would've loved to ring his neck. Grrrr. He made me mad lol.

Wow that is a strong reaction to wish a noose on one of the most civil characters with no double motives we meet in the entirety of warrior story. Did he really made you that mad just because he was smart enough to hold some leverage to keep you from killing him right off the gate?

 

About Khem, yeah he is bound to you, but he never tries to hide at the begining that he'd kill you if he could. Things evolve then as he starts to respect the SI, and after that he's consistent in his relationship with the SI while Ashara is always between devotion and hate it seems.

I don't blame her tbh. If I'd be a teenager and a random wizard would come kill my master and told me I was his now I'd have conflicting thoughts too. Following them is gonna keep me alive but probably not very happy...

Edited September 16, 2018 by Kiesu

[Goreshaga]

Really? There is a scene where she says she knows that you are a good person based on your actions, and you don't have any option to contradict her or ask what she means.

Well, it's been a while since i played my Imperious, so i may have forgotten this specific line, especially considering she was a companion i did not like very much when i played the LS SI, but for the most part she was the same. And well, even while playing DS i don't usually mistreat my companions so maybe i had the same line on both my Nox and Imperious.

And when you reunite with her on an Imperious she treats you like trash, as if you're the worst person she's ever met, i really had to force myself to take her back, i really considered rejecting her.

But considering how she treats you when you reunite, i don't think i'll very kind to her now, at least she'll have a valid reason.

 

I don't blame her tbh. If I'd be a teenager and a random wizard would come kill my master and told me I was his now I'd have conflicting thoughts too. Following them is gonna keep me alive but probably not very happy...

The problem is that you don't have any option to reject her, they're here (there's even a kill option written here), but you're still forced to take her onboard wether you want it or not.

If t was an option, i'd clearly either kill her once i get Kalatosh or just leave her on Taris and don't care what happens to her (on a Nox that is).

Edited September 16, 2018 by Goreshaga

[Kiesu]

The problem is that you don't have any option to reject her, they're here (there's even a kill option written here), but you're still forced to take her onboard wether you want it or not.

If t was an option, i'd clearly either kill her once i get Kalatosh or just leave her on Taris and don't care what happens to her (on a Nox that is).

Fair. But I don't think anyone is defending not having the right to kill/reject characters anyway?

Back in Beta (or Alpha, I forget) we had options to reject/kill certain character (they would have been replaced with MrGenericBattleFollower with no dialog) but BW backed down on that decision and we had to keep everyone onboard. I don't agree with this decision either but that's how it is. And as it is currently, I can totally relate with her hate-love relationship under the circumstances.