Class Balance in 6.0 (Question)

[memerobot]

I find your posts about Fury marauders amusing to say the least.....

 

Thanks, I got my own motives. And yes, it's annoying to see specs that require 0 effort to be good at being buffed even more.

 

Dude, marauder has 2 trash specs and 1 that is useful in PVP..... Bro, marader dies... and dies fast. This class cannot heal itself and lasts as long as it's DCD's allow it to last.

 

I am well aware. Thank you for pointing out pointlessly.

 

Things like cc immunity.... just helps the Fury mara die a little bit slower and of course... the HIGH DPS is there to compensate for no self healing/it's a pure DPS class. You want to nerf Fury;s DPS, while Mara has already 2 garbage specs ? Anni is a joke.. those fluff dots look good screen, but with they actually did something too ?/ carnage has been nerfed all over since 5.0.

 

Fury, by itself, was doing fine without the stun immunity back in 3.0 (It was already considered to be on par with Carnage easily) then they added the thing around 3.1 or 3.2(Can't recall).

NP but the fact that players began spamming this here, it became obnoxious. Add ridiculously unrewarding gameplay with this, just makes it that disgusting. And by unrewarding, I mean there's absolutely no effort necessary to play this spec unlike the other two. Don't say that the other two specs are easy to play with since performing at top level really isn't that easy.

Then, the fact that they buffed the damage so much through out the time when compared to the other specs that it is actually noticeable? Come on. It was not just the nerfs on the other specs. They actually added more and more dps to an already broken spec.

 

I had enough of nerf this/nerf that comments. It's destructive. Fury and Marauder was absolutely fine until this dev team started nerfing Sins, Anni and Carnage( who the ***** asked for that in the first place????), which made Fury have seemingly god mode dps compared to the other 2 and the rest of melee in general with the exception of Jugg that also got an "another life" buff.

 

It isn't that Fury seemed like god. It was already performing very well. They actually increased DPS and nerfed the other two. Already said it before.

 

You need to look at what is an underdog and buff that.. nerfing specs that don't need nerfing doesn't create class balance.

 

I play Lethality Operative out of the Concealment majority. I play Carnage out of the Fury majority. I play IO merc out of the Arsenal majority. I play Pyro PT out of the AP majority.

And I can say I know what it feels like. These are very 'underwhelming' if not straight out useless in the common hands and the fact that people just avoid them completely, just makes you think they are just bad.

Tweaking them is hard, since they can become strong out of nothing, or at least I think so, given the exmaples in past. Madness Sorc/Hatred Sin were considered pure garbage before 3.0 hit with a buff bat and everyone cried loud about that and the nerf bat appeared a week or two later.

 

PS: Mara specs are soo "good" that every time I switch back to fury from playing a few days of anni/carnage, I wonder what the hell was wrong with me to waste time with those specs....

 

Not having some kind of cc immunity in this meta = delete your char from PVP and go play flashpoints with it.

 

Sadly this is true but honestly, I don't see others throwing a CC immunity to the other specs that actually need some love. Instead, they are doing what I mentioned many times above, nerf the already underused specs and «nerf», no touch or actually even buff more the already good specs.

 

EDIT: I do not mean to offend/insult you. I am slightly overheated regarding this topic.

Edited October 10, 2018 by memerobot

[DavidAtkinson]

Thanks, I got my own motives. And yes, it's annoying to see specs that require 0 effort to be good at being buffed even more.

 

 

 

I am well aware. Thank you for pointing out pointlessly.

 

 

 

Fury, by itself, was doing fine without the stun immunity back in 3.0 (It was already considered to be on par with Carnage easily) then they added the thing around 3.1 or 3.2(Can't recall).

NP but the fact that players began spamming this here, it became obnoxious. Add ridiculously unrewarding gameplay with this, just makes it that disgusting. And by unrewarding, I mean there's absolutely no effort necessary to play this spec unlike the other two. Don't say that the other two specs are easy to play with since performing at top level really isn't that easy.

Then, the fact that they buffed the damage so much through out the time when compared to the other specs that it is actually noticeable? Come on. It was not just the nerfs on the other specs. They actually added more and more dps to an already broken spec.

 

 

 

It isn't that Fury seemed like god. It was already performing very well. They actually increased DPS and nerfed the other two. Already said it before.

 

 

 

I play Lethality Operative out of the Concealment majority. I play Carnage out of the Fury majority. I play IO merc out of the Arsenal majority. I play Pyro PT out of the AP majority.

And I can say I know what it feels like. These are very 'underwhelming' if not straight out useless in the common hands and the fact that people just avoid them completely, just makes you think they are just bad.

Tweaking them is hard, since they can become strong out of nothing, or at least I think so, given the exmaples in past. Madness Sorc/Hatred Sin were considered pure garbage before 3.0 hit with a buff bat and everyone cried loud about that and the nerf bat appeared a week or two later.

 

 

 

Sadly this is true but honestly, I don't see others throwing a CC immunity to the other specs that actually need some love. Instead, they are doing what I mentioned many times above, nerf the already underused specs and «nerf», no touch or actually even buff more the already good specs.

 

EDIT: I do not mean to offend/insult you. I am slightly overheated regarding this topic.

 

 

OK man, I get it... They buffed the damage too much so that Fury is a blast spec and you think that any noob who just rolls fury will become instant good. Wrong of course as the class has certain rules.. that need to be followed during the rotation in order to milk the most dps.

 

Anyway... I hope you saw in this meta how much some DPS classes can heal themselves. What do you think a class that is unable to do that needs to be able to compensate ? Damage of course.. Now nerf the damage and you get another meh spec. I main a marauder and Fury but play all 3 specs and I am not bothered by other Fury's as I know most of them aren't good.

 

The Ranged meta is more bothersome at the moment, and melee needs to be left the **** alone.

 

Bottom line:

 

When Bioware said that they gonna start *cough* "balancing" classes I was ready to bet my left kidney that they will not do what ppl asked them. It's 80% no....

 

There were threads on daily basis that certain ranged classes had been given too GOD mode defenses compared to others while some classes are total garbage: Jugg - PT.

 

2 years or a little bit less and here we are with the same damn classes and their I WIN abilities running around in Warzones and shooting you easily from 5 yards away easily....

 

I ask.. where the funk is the class balance ? what were those so called.... class balancing patches for ? I see the same thing as I did when 5.0 hit. Mercs-Snipers, while some dudes got their classes nerfed and now they are bitter because they don't perform as a Fury marauder damage wise. Yes, I am talking about deception.. that was really good, but bioware ? " neerf pls'' too op.. Powertech ? still trash, but good DPS if you are lucky to live enough to actually do some damage.

 

6.0 ?

 

At the moment I wouldn't be surprised if there won't be any major classe changes if it ever happens....

Edited October 10, 2018 by DavidAtkinson

[memerobot]

OK man, I get it... They buffed the damage too much so that Fury is a blast spec and you think that any noob who just rolls fury will become instant good. Wrong of course as the class has certain rules.. that need to be followed during the rotation in order to milk the most dps.

 

Not saying anyone can just play with it but the effort you put differs rather a lot

 

Anyway... I hope you saw in this meta how much some DPS classes can heal themselves. What do you think a class that is unable to do that needs to be able to compensate ? Damage of course.. Now nerf the damage and you get another meh spec. I main a marauder and Fury but play all 3 specs and I am not bothered by other Fury's as I know most of them aren't good.

 

Well, how would you suggest to buff Carnage and Annihilation then? "Carnage clipping is too stronk, plis nerf" or "Annihilation heals are too stronk". I'd laugh at it but oh well.

 

The Ranged meta is more bothersome at the moment, and melee needs to be left the **** alone.

 

Well, sniper heals needs to change. Just tweak the 2% passive into 3%, remove heal on roll. Boom, fixed. And the heal on ballistic isn't that much of an impact.

Merc needs to lose the reflect heal or add a certain debuff to heals in case they take certain utilities?

 

6.0 ?

 

At the moment I wouldn't be surprised if there won't be any major classe changes if it ever happens....

 

Honestly, would like to see a decent buff to Leth Op (in defensives), Viru Snips(in dps), Carnage and Anni mara(both if dps), PT in complete(punch in one more DCD or tweak the current ones) and Sorc DPS(although this is the most scary one to touch) but they won't do it! So nerfs on the others(hopefully creative ones).

 

Buffs are more fun than nerfs, everyone knows that but if they don't do the first, you gotta tweak the second.

Edited October 11, 2018 by memerobot

[AdjeYo]

Im curious how you can say that ranged classes have more things to worry about when ranged can play as a melee at any time, but not vice versa. There is a freedom that is allowed with ranged classes that cannot be matched by any melee class.

 

Melee dps don't have any casts or channels which require them to stand still for an extended duration, ranged dps do (snipers most of all, but sorcs and mercs do have some too). So melee dps can stand in melee dps and move together with a boss (for instance when walking between shield generators on Dash'Roode fight or moving with Tyrans in Fortress).

[olagatonjedi]

Melee dps don't have any casts or channels which require them to stand still for an extended duration, ranged dps do (snipers most of all, but sorcs and mercs do have some too). So melee dps can stand in melee dps and move together with a boss (for instance when walking between shield generators on Dash'Roode fight or moving with Tyrans in Fortress).

Ranged can still dps with their basic attack for the generally 1 gcd it takes to move and get back to the non-cast-time skills in their rotation. A melee does 0 dps if they are out of melee range for any number of reasons.

[rolandps]

I've read buffing sniper DCDs? Increasing duration of diversion? Seriously, omegalul, diversion is what makes EVERY comp playing with sniper DD in Team Ranked. Either Engin or MM, Viru is hardly ever seen.

 

Also I have read buff sorc DCDs? Honestly, don't, please. Do something about their damage, sorcerers are really good in their deffensives. Lightning insane DR, madness also some and offheals... Just don't make sorcerers another tanking turret like snipers are.

 

You guys must be regstars, huh?

[Maxitrac]

I don't want to be rude here [mostly because I don't want to get banned again so soon =p ]but I have no idea how someone with many of your opinions could clear so much NiM, but, you must have some really good raid group members to whom you should be greatful. That said, I don't disagree with all your points, it's just that the ones that I do disagree with they are so glaringly misplaced. Because I don't want you to be overly critical I'm going to include where I do agree.

Sure...

1 - I agree Fury DPS is far too strong at the moment especially considering it's utility. I feel bad about this because it has been the under dog of the specs for so long, but, it always did have at very least great PVP utility that in many ways made up for it;s lower DPS in uptime. I'm not sure any spec should be designed for only pvp or only pve, but as things stand right now, it is better in PVP and PVE in every single way than Carnage and in most ways than Anni. That is has better DPS than Carnage and Anni is a glaring issue, especially the amount between itself and Carnage. Carnage was always the quasi-burst spec and Fury the burst spec and it should be so again. It ripped Carnage's identity from it, some of it's abilties, and even still has better burst than even Carnage. I don't want to see it made terrible, but it should have lower DPS than the other two [although not necessarily by a wide margin like now]. Fury is the best spec in both PVE and PVP now.

 

I did make this in the mentality for PvE. Now to your point, i do agree that 'normal' dps classes should have one spec for PvE and one for PvP but, Classes like Mara and Sniper where they have 3 dps specs only, they should and that's how fury and mm were tuned before this over the top buff to fury.

 

2 - Unfortunately because you have to balance classes with one stroke in this meta [due to sharing gear of both PVE and PVP] I do not feel at all bad about Arsenal's current position, it's a rDPS spec and should have lower DPS than melee and it's DCDs are so god awfully broken and OP it should have amongst the worst DPS in the game. DPS specs should not be able to do the kind of healing they can now. Arsenal is capable of healing 1 mill + in WZs, any spec that can do that should have garbage DPS. [ergo, it's not alone in this regard tho]. It's OP af in PVP [which is why we need to have class balancing that can differ between PVE and PVP so a spec can be adjusted only in the area of play where it's needed. It's OP nature is notably less in PVE than in PVP].

 

Ok so, I can see you don't play merc so I'll explain this to you.... I want to have the barage proc back, in the nerfs they nerfed the barage proc so it doesn't reduce the heat cost of blazing bolts and they nerfed the damage buff from it. With bringing back the it will put Arsenal into a place that isn't underpowered, but isn't to OP to go against bioware system or mess up pvp too much. Plus merc dcds are very easy to counter now days.

 

3 - I leave that with better minds on the subject than my own.

 

Good idea

 

4 - Disagreed. It's a sustained spec and thus it would make no sense to have DPS comparable to the same classes burst spec. I will say this tho, this game does not adhere to the norms of what sustained/burst specs normally do in general in MMOs and even Bant himself who's work almost the entire player base respects and adheres to [build wise] pointed this out. You have burst specs with dots [Lightning] and sustained specs with massive burst attacks [Ann i.e.].

 

I can see where you're coming from with this... but Pyro, Fury, and Lethality to a point are all pulling higher than the intended dps output, and are roughly 1.5k above their intended target dps hence why i say they need a small nerf. In no way am i saying they need to be nerfed into the ground, but they need a very small nerf. Also, Pyro for a dot/sustained spec have some pretty insane burst.

 

5 - I can't imagine the amount of crack you smoked that brought you to this utterly wrong conclusion. This is a ranged meta up and down and even if it wasn't that principle would still be wrong. Custom dictates that melee must have higher dps than ranged due to greater up time, being less prone to damage [because they are wussies and fight from 5 blocks away] and can adjust to mechanics with greater ease and still be able to DPS properly unlike melee whom any time they need to get more than 4m away, must stop DPSing no matter what.

 

It is a very common misconception that ranged have more uptime than melee, melee intact have almost equal downtime to ranged if you're able to play the class to a decent level and can position yourself in good places. Ranged since they would otherwise tunnel tend to have mechanics to do, or have things they need to do with will push them back in their roation.

 

You are a NiM level player so it would be impossible for you to come to this conclusion having done Revan HM, TOS Coritanni and Master/Blaster HM, Styrak NiM, TFB NiM, DP/DF NiM.

 

Ok so, Revan... ranged have to run beam most of the way, they need to do blades. Cora, both melee and ranged have to deal with the shot from cora and yellow paint, and ranged have the bird dropping to them constantly. Master Blaster, you must have never done it if you think ranged get to tunnel, they have to run more than anyone else on any fight in this game in every phase. Styrak, ranged will get knocked back before spines, they like everyone have to deal with nightmares, knock backing, interrupting, and moving to adds. Terror, ranged should be swapping to becon, adds and swapping tents to balance. Brontes NIM, Melee have to chase the boss and will loose damage so this one makes sense for this. Council, no one gets to turret till B&S phase, till then everyone is swapping, chasing things, cleansing and kiting.

That said, you clearly have no experience in PVP as this perspective is glaringly wrong as well in PVP, even more so than in PVE. Try fighting a merc or a Sniper as a melee who isn't Fury when they are constantly slowing you, doing knockbacks, rooting and rolling you, and can maintain distance so that there are times when they are able to DPS you for 5+ seconds and keep you out of melee ranged. Plasma Problem alone can do this to 5 melee at once and have a constant aoe on them.

 

I only do PvP off and on hence why all these are aimed toward PvE.

 

6 - Sorcs are not bottom DPS and they haven't been for quite a long time now. That distinction belongs to Arsenal and Marksman. The problem with Sorc DPS has nothing to do with Sorcs and everything to do with Mercs and Snipers. Are Sorcs overall in a worse place than Mercs and Snipers, hell yes they are, but that is because Mercs and Snipers are too strong and should be more like Sorcs who are currently the only Ranged DPS that adhere to proper rDPS design. You shouldn't be able to face tank three opponents at once for 30 seconds straight as a ranged and be fine.

 

While Lightning can use some adjusting, Madness is a dirt easy dot spead class that can put out high numbers and rediculous amounts of healing at the same time. Any dps spec that can heal upwards of 1mill + in a wz and still put out high DPS should in fact have garbage DPS. "Fluff" damage is still damage and you don't give better burst to sustained specs that kinda defeats the definition of a sustained spec in the first friggen place. Damage is damage, a healer can't make a distinction and must heal it all the same. If you have 5 k health left it doesn't matter if you get hit with a dot that does 5k or a burst attack that does 20, you are equally dead. - Furthmore, if you don't have to hit the target again to do more damage and you can do damage to a target while it is no longer in striking range, you're a wussie. If you increase damage on a sustain spec, that doesn't do anything to mitigate that fluff damage it just adds more on top of it and they already do more overall than burst.

 

Evening Lightning needs to be adjust very carefully. Why? Here's why -

It can go thru two burst cycles in the same time most other burst specs go thru one burst cycle. It's main burst attack is not mitigated by armor at all. It has 35' attack range which means it can be in attack range of most other ranged even that cannot attack back. It has insane amounts of mobility and utility and is one of the most effective specs in the game vs melee due to its ability to slow and root. It can kite melee as good as an engineering sniper. Lastly, it can heal ridiculous amounts and thus it's DPS should be garbage. If it wants to trade some of that healing for more DPS fine. But, as one of the classes than can heal 1+ mill in a WZ, it should have garbage dps.

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't be adjusted mind you, it should be, but carefully, and it's DPS should not put it ahead of melee DPS. That goes for all comparative ranged. But yes, adjust it, but do so carefully. The last thing this game needs is another broken Ranged class. At least now it is currently the only ranged class that adheres to the standard rDPS to mDPS standard. Ranged should do less DPS than melee.

 

I love sorcs and I would take a sorc as a partner over all other class in the game. They are useful as all hell and have a ton of utility. That said, yeah, they are a support class, which is what makes them special. Some might not like that notion, but it is what it is and there are support class minded classes in every mmo. That's why it tends to have lower DPS because it has so many other useful abilities that other classes don't. If you want to be a DPS hound [which I can totally appreciate] don't play a Sorc that's not what they are built for. Healer spec, DPS spec, I don't care. I want a sorc as my partner always.

 

There is nothing you can say that sorc doesn't need a buff. Sorc has been sh*t for years, it PvP is melts due to no cds and it's dps output is lower, it only shines when people stack up. In PvE it can be brought to everything due to everything being ezz.

 

7 - Agreed, what PTs need is an extra new DCD. It should, however, be along the lines of Saberward, it's a mDPS spec and should have a mdps DCD. No DPS spec should have DCDs like mercs have, not even mercs.

 

 

8 - No, you don't add abilties to stims, that's not what they are for, they are for raising two stats. If you give one class an added ability to a stim, it's pretty clear you know damn well you are trying to sneak something in under the radar. If Operatives get an added abiltity on their stim so should every other class. Additionally, stims aren't class related, healers use the same stims as DPS so, if you do as you suggest than you just gave DPS Operatives 100% interupt immunity and everyone else who uses that stim for that matter as stims are not class specific.

 

... Please know what you're talking about before you say this. Stim Boost is an ability operatives have which gives them more alacrity and a tactical advantage. Additionally in healer spec you get and instant kolto infusion or kolto injection. This is something to allow operatives in PvP to be able to kind of burst heal, and to be able to be a little closer to the level all the other heal specs are/

 

9 - I leave that to better minds to determine whether or not that is necessary/appropriate. I do however feel that there is something to the notion that they had it first, which isn't to say that maybe it could be too much with other things they have, I'm really not sure so I won't take a position, but, I am at least sympathetic to them on the subject.

 

I feel that it should be a sin ability due to them having it first.

 

10 - As someone who has played Carnage for the last 6 and half years straight exclusively, I am in total agreement on this point. It has had it's identity ripped from it, and it's playstyle. It has always been a high risk/high reward class and understood to be one of the most skill intensive specs in the game, sometimes it worked out well for you, sometimes it hurt you, but that was at the very heart of it's design and idenitity. It's the fastest spec in the game and it is as of those changes a spec that incurs a flat out DPS loss if it uses the high alacrity build. That build is only good on a dummy. - Carnage has been the quasi-DPS spec of Marauders forever and that is how the devs referred to them. With 5.x, it has been nerfed more than any other spec in the game and is the only spec in the game that suffered two unilateral DPS nerfs back to back and lost almost 900 DPS combined. It doesn't play the same, it doesn't feel the same, and worst of all, as a pure DPS class spec, with no heals and no CC immunity and essentially does nothing but swing lightsabers, it has the worst overall DPS of any melee DPS spec in the entire game. It has no off role abilities like virtually every other DPS spec [taunts, guards, heals, off heals, cleanses, perma-stealth, raising people from the dead in combat]. Carnage has sorc level DPS.

 

"it has the worst overall DPS of any melee DPS spec in the entire game" This is fake news, Concealment and Rage both pull lower, far lower. Also carnage can pull some pretty lit numbers on some fights.

 

If you want to continue this DM me on discord at Plebble#8439. I would be more than happy to continue this

Edited October 11, 2018 by Maxitrac

[memerobot]

I've read buffing sniper DCDs? Increasing duration of diversion? Seriously, omegalul, diversion is what makes EVERY comp playing with sniper DD in Team Ranked. Either Engin or MM, Viru is hardly ever seen.

 

Who said that? O_O

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Sure...

 

 

I did make this in the mentality for PvE. Now to your point, i do agree that 'normal' dps classes should have one spec for PvE and one for PvP but, Classes like Mara and Sniper where they have 3 dps specs only, they should and that's how fury and mm were tuned before this over the top buff to fury.

 

You must have been confused by what I said, or I said it in a way that could be confused, whatever the case, I don't feel that classes should have a spec specifically for PVE and another for PVP. I don't think that, and I don't that for either normal classes or pure DPS classes. Clearly, that is the case sometimes, but, I don't think it should be intentional or by design. That's just my personal opinion tho. Fury's great advantage in PVP existed before 5.0, before the buff, and remains exactly has it had prior, that being, obviously gravity vortex. Even in 4.0 when Fury was where Carnage is now for DPS, it still preformed excellent and was considered strong for PVP. Just for the record, I have no issue with Fury and gravity vortex, that is part of it's identity and has been for a long time prior to it's 5.0 buff. It should continue to posses this feature.

 

 

 

Ok so, I can see you don't play merc so I'll explain this to you.... I want to have the barage proc back, in the nerfs they nerfed the barage proc so it doesn't reduce the heat cost of blazing bolts and they nerfed the damage buff from it. With bringing back the it will put Arsenal into a place that isn't underpowered, but isn't to OP to go against bioware system or mess up pvp too much. Plus merc dcds are very easy to counter now days.

 

I most certainly don't play merc. And I had no problem with it's DPS prior to it's DPS being nerfed, It's OP status has to do with it's broken DCDs and thus remains. As far as it's DPS being nerfed, join the club, it is far from the only spec that had it's DPS nerfed, As I've said about other classes as well, DPS specs that can heal in excess of 1 million in a WZ should have garbage DPS. Mercs are not the only offender in this regard.

 

 

 

Good idea

 

 

 

I can see where you're coming from with this... but Pyro, Fury, and Lethality to a point are all pulling higher than the intended dps output, and are roughly 1.5k above their intended target dps hence why i say they need a small nerf. In no way am i saying they need to be nerfed into the ground, but they need a very small nerf. Also, Pyro for a dot/sustained spec have some pretty insane burst.

 

I don't disgaree in the respect that the differences in DPS needn't be quite so large. As I think I mentioned previously, even Bant whom we all base our "ideal builds" on and whom was considered a trust worthy 'authority' on game function stated that burst and and sustained specs in this game do not adhere to the standards normally asscoiated with them in MMOs in the general sense as you have burst specs with dots [Lightning for example, carnage was guilty of this as well prior to losing it's dot on ravage] and sustained specs with burst attacks [Anni and Vengeance for example]. So I'm not in disgreement with you on this in spirit. They should be ahead overall in DPS but not necessarily by so much. Fury doesn't apply in this case as it's not a sustained spec, it's a quasi-burst spec now [which Carnage had always been prior to 5.0]. I get what you're saying about Pyro having some insane burst for a sustained spec and I agree.

 

 

 

It is a very common misconception that ranged have more uptime than melee, melee intact have almost equal downtime to ranged if you're able to play the class to a decent level and can position yourself in good places. Ranged since they would otherwise tunnel tend to have mechanics to do, or have things they need to do with will push them back in their roation.

 

There is is absolutely nothing you or anyone else trying to make the case for this is going to say that is going to convince me there is a shred of truth to this. I do not for one second believe there is an ounce of it. This isn't even a SWTOR issue. Go the forums of LOTRO [with regard to the Hunter class in particular], DDO [in regard to throwers, chuckers, and to a lesser extent casters] STO [ground fighting]. In PVP in this game the difference is even more blatantly obvious. This is a ranged meta, everyone knows it. The fact that you site it as a "misconception" speaks to the fact that there is a majority of the people who believe it, that ranged have better uptime than melee. [but that is not all that they have over melee, they also tend take to take less damage than melee, because they are "fighting" from 5 blocks away, and they are easier on the healers as a result. If 6 people say the sky is blue and 2 say it's green, good chance, the sky is blue.

 

There is a reason that you see in LFG in Operations "LFG rDPS. You never see people asking for 'mDPS'. That's why. In both the Progression groups I was in, this was a constantly mentioned thing. The ranged were much easier on the healers and the uptime issue,as there were fights where certain melee who also had ranged DPS characters were asked to switch to their ranged characters [i only had the melee character] because of uptime issues. -People LF for Operations on Fleet are asking for rDPS at times. They are never asking for mDPS. There has to be a reason for that.

 

 

 

Ok so, Revan... ranged have to run beam most of the way, they need to do blades. Cora, both melee and ranged have to deal with the shot from cora and yellow paint, and ranged have the bird dropping to them constantly. Master Blaster, you must have never done it if you think ranged get to tunnel, they have to run more than anyone else on any fight in this game in every phase. Styrak, ranged will get knocked back before spines, they like everyone have to deal with nightmares, knock backing, interrupting, and moving to adds. Terror, ranged should be swapping to becon, adds and swapping tents to balance. Brontes NIM, Melee have to chase the boss and will loose damage so this one makes sense for this. Council, no one gets to turret till B&S phase, till then everyone is swapping, chasing things, cleansing and kiting.

 

You're not even talking about the same mechanics that In am that should be blatantly obvious as the ones that I am referring to when the subject matter is regarding uptime differences between melee and ranged.

 

With regard to Revan HM, it should be obvious that the mechanic I am talking about on the 1st floor is Essence Corruption. As if the melee comes back into melee ranged before being cleansed which he can't do himself, he is going to spread said corruption all raid members within 5 meters and the healers are going to be very hard pressed to cleanse all those players in addition to the normal new applications of Essense Corruption that will be spread. The melee so afflicted can do absolutely nothing about this situation and is completely dependent on a healer cleansing him and even than when so done, he is almost certainly going to be so Corrupted again numerous times during this phase. It would be impossible to suggest that there aren't massive differences in uptime between ranged and melee in this one example alone.

 

 

I only do PvP off and on hence why all these are aimed toward PvE.

 

That's fine and that's a perfectly reasonable basis for their being some differences of opinion, as we all know specs don't always hold the same over all strengths in PVP as they do in PVE and vice versa. Arsenal is a very good example of this. It does not hold the same "OP" state in PVE that it does in PVP, namely because no one cares if a team member has ridiculous survivability in PVE as it only helps the group and gives a better chance at the clear. When you are fighting an enemy with 3 lives/rediculous amounts of healing while you can't heal a paper cut on your own, that changes perceptions significantly.

 

 

 

There is nothing you can say that sorc doesn't need a buff. Sorc has been sh*t for years, it PvP is melts due to no cds and it's dps output is lower, it only shines when people stack up. In PvE it can be brought to everything due to everything being ezz.

 

I don't think madness should be buffed. It was one of the only specs in the game to reciece a buff and not have said buff nerfed. While sorcs did have their self heals nerfed [which I was against and spoke out against] they are still able to heal in the mill + range as a dps spec in WZs so I really can't feel that said nerf was at aggregious. Again, I am of the opinion that any DPS spec that can heal into the million mark in a WZ should have garbage DPS. That said, I am also of the opinion that while I do firmly believe there should be a heals to DPS counter ratio, DPS sorcs should have the best self heals as a DPS spec of all the classes hands down. Fluff damage is pressure damage. You don't buff sustained specs with burst damage. Buff madnesses just results in more fluff damage and when I see sorcs clearly capable of coming in 1st place in DPS I don't share the opinion that madness has low DPS. This may be another difference found in PVE/PVP. In PVP you see sorcs come in 1st [and 2nd and 3rd] place for damage regularly.

 

I do think Lightning should be buffed, but very carefully. It should not be buffed so as to put it ahead of melee however. It has an attack advantage of 31' over melee. I consider that a massive advantahe especially in PVP where melee are constantly being slowed and there is no effects of resolve on slows so they can be slowed indefinately. I'd say I spend probably about 65-70% of WZ slowed. It effects melee massively.

 

Lighting is second only to a Sniper in control over melee. Built correctly, they can kite a melee such that they have extremely limited amounts of up time while maintaining 100% uptime on them. But yes, buff Lightning, just carefully.

 

I know two Lightning Sorcs on Star Forge that you stand absolutely no chance against as a melee. Furthermore, you will not out DPS them on any class. Excellent players to be sure, and that bares part of the reason, but, what they show as possible with Lighting,is none the less telling, because there is nothing I can do to have enough uptime on them to be a threat, and they can maintain 100% uptime on me and heal like crazy.

 

As stated, I value sorcs highly, and will always choose a sorc as a partner, dps or heals.

 

I don't care what the class is, if you can heal into the mill mark or close to it on a DPS spec in a WZ your DPS should be garbage in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

... Please know what you're talking about before you say this. Stim Boost is an ability operatives have which gives them more alacrity and a tactical advantage. Additionally in healer spec you get and instant kolto infusion or kolto injection. This is something to allow operatives in PvP to be able to kind of burst heal, and to be able to be a little closer to the level all the other heal specs are/

 

I will certainly take your word on this. I don't play an Operative and was not aware they had an ability called "Stim boost". I do think it's an acceptable excuse for confusion however, as everyone uses a stim boost and they are not ability related.

 

 

 

I feel that it should be a sin ability due to them having it first.

 

I tend to agree with you on that.

 

 

 

"it has the worst overall DPS of any melee DPS spec in the entire game" This is fake news, Concealment and Rage both pull lower, far lower. Also carnage can pull some pretty lit numbers on some fights.

 

You will forgive me for using the only math equation that measures DPS in a manner in which there is an even playing field between comparing the DPS of specs to one another.If there is not equal uptime, if there is not equal target availability, if there is not equal survivability, if there is not equal everything, the comparisons of DPS among different specs are totally meaningless and unfounded.

 

There is a reason why they have a seperate cateogory for DPS parses [dummy and live] and that is because in live fights, there is absolutely no way to ensure an even playing field. Uptime can be different, heals can be different, range from target can be different, even having heals at all can be different. In PVP there are times I don't have a healer on my team and as I cannot heal myself at all on my own, I am completely and utterly depen dent on others for heals. So if my enemy is has heals or has a healer on his team or both and I don't, there is a very good change I am going to have less uptime than them because it is an undisputed fact that you cannot DPS when you are dead. No one thinks that what you do on a dummy is what you will do in a live fight, but if it would be equally foolish to think that you can measure the innate dps differernces between specs wherein they are not measured on a level playing field. Like it or not, that is the standard.

 

On a level,even playing field, wherein one player has neither an advatange or a deficiet of any kind to another and wherein the only marked difference between the two is different specs, than one can only account for DPS difference when averaged over enough examples to account for differences in levels of skill or proper rotatation and thus made good by the presense of proper form as to make the averages found among a single spec representive of said spec and thus able to be put in like form against another spec that has gone thru the same averaging process as the other to make the results of said spec well founded and reasonable.

 

That said, here is a fact. Under the exact same circumstances [ergo a level playing field] concealment and rage are able to hit DPS levels that Carnage has never been able to achieve under those same exact circumstances [level playing feild.] Now, not only is this the case on a dummy in all cases, this is also the case in live fights. There are tons of examples of specs in live fights reaching levels of DPS that no one using another spec has ever been able to achieve.

 

Now if you want to make the argument that the fact that Fury can achieve 11k and other specs have never been able to reach that level of DPS under the same conditions and that not be demonstrative of innate built into DPS differences you're going to have to provide alot more proof if you expect me to agree with you on that. I personally consider the results of specs DPS being compared under the exact same circumstances in every single way with the only difference being the different spec extremely telling and reliable and is without question the only verifiable /scientific evidence that exists to make such distinctions.

 

That said, under the same exact conditions and even playhing field, Carnage has never not even one single time been able to each the same level of DPS ceiling that Rage or Concealment have been able to achieve. While I am not the best Carnage Marauder, I am someone who parses everyday, tries to push the envelop, and who at least currently holds the highest parses in all 4 categories [500k, 1.5k, 2.5 k, and 4k] on Star Forge and in two categories, game., I have never been able, nor any other Carnage Marauder of reaching the same DPS heights as Rage and Concealment have proven they can. That is a statistical fact. Until such a time as you can come up with a more reliable way of measuring DPS and do so wherein the the circumstances are completely the same in all cases save for the spec being used itself, this is the facts as they are.

 

This is not fake news. This isn't about right or wrong or me or you. This is about pure unadulterated science and the standard by which DPS is measured not only in this game, but in all games. DPS = Damage per second. There is only one math equation that measures that and it cannot be done in one's head.

 

If you want to continue this DM me on discord at Plebble#8439. I would be more than happy to continue this

 

Sorry, my response was all but done before I even reach this part of about contact, I haven't used Discord in a long time but I will get it up and going again and will contact you there with my info. =]

 

Responses are in red.

[Whynotdothis]

This is how they should do class balances for 6.0.

 

Step 1 - Have a base damage/heal number. For sake of argument and easiness of numbers lets go with 10k DPS (DD), 15k EHPS, and 5k DPS (tanks).

 

Step 2 - Count every defensive ability for each class/specialization that can be used in a 5 minute time frame.

 

Step 3 - The class(es)/specialization(s) that can use the least amount of defensive abilities get +4% to their DPS/HPS. The class(es)/specializations(s) that have the second least amount get +3%. So on and so forth. It should look like 10k +4%, 10k +3%,...... 10k -3%, 10k -4%. Healing would look like 15k + 1%, 15k +/- 0%, 15k -1%. Tanking would be similar to healing; just substitute 15k for 5k.

 

Or the DPS modifiers could be +3%, +2%, +1%, +/-0%, +/-0%, -1%, -2%, -3% instead of starting at 4% and skipping 0. If doing the 4% the min/max (if one spec took all the minimum and another took all the maximum modifiers would be 8.8k min / 11.2k max

 

Step 4 - Repeat steps 2 and 3 but instead of defensive abilities use off healing and off tanking abilities. Count any and all healing abilities (even the fake health from Jugg/Guard) and healing from DoTs (Madness/Hatred) and find out who has the least amount of group utility in this regard to get the +4% bonus with the one that has the most utility a -4%.

 

Step 5 - Repeat steps 2 and 3 except use roots and mobility.

 

Step 6 - Repeat steps 2 and 3 except use stuns and interrupts (even the ones from leaps).

 

Step 7 - Add up all the +/- %'s for each class/specialization and do the math. It would be the most fair way to keep everything balanced AND relevant for ALL content in the game.

 

Make it so Sorcs/Sages coming out of Force Barrier cannot be stunned to negate their defensive ability. They have the one ability that is so easily blocked by every other class in the game.

 

Give everyone 1 hard stun, 1 soft stun (ranged single target while melee get aoe), and 1 interrupt (with the same cd and range as everyone else). I am fine with the AOE Stuns being with 5-10m of the person using it while the single target stuns being ranged.

 

There might be a few things I may have forgotten since at the time of me typing this it's 0430. However, this would go a long way to helping in both PvP and PvE balancing issues. Again, the numbers used are strictly for an example and not the exact numbers that should be used.

 

 

On a side note: if you give PTs any kind of DCD or buff to what they already have their damage will need to be nerfed substantially. They are now, where Mercs were Pre 4.0.

 

Also, the clowns crying about Merc DCDs are OP have no idea what they are talking about. Their DCDs have very long CD timers and they have only 3 of them (not counting the off-healing abilities or chaff flair because that is pretty much useless). It used to be stun a Merc-kill a Merc within the 4s stun. Now you have to use some of that grey matter between your ears (which I know most of you don't hence you attack into the Orange ball with single target abilities) and stun or kite/hide from them at the correct times. I have no problem killing Mercs on all the classes. The only thing I would say and I've been asking for this for years is for Electronet to stop blocking Force Barrier and other defensive abilities. It should only block movement (slow but not root) and movement enhancing abilities. This goes for Gore and the Republic equivalents.

 

The only rDD that is on par with mDD is Sniper. As such I am not advocating any nerfs to damage output on any classes/specializations just for some classes/specializations to be buffed a bit.

 

Melee have so many movement enhancing abilities compared to ranged that being melee isn't a penalty in PvP. I have no problems sticking to ranged or healers. All I can say about that is you need to get good and stop making excuses for why you're bad.

 

One last observation as a healer in NiM; it seems like mDD and rDD have the same uptime on bosses. Everyone has a roll to do and there are times where the fights will favor the mDD and others favor the rDD but overall it's the same. However, that comes with me only being r/mDD in HMs and healer in NiMs so I could be wrong.

[Whynotdothis]

I might add I can do 7k dps and 2k hps on my Juggernaut and Sin in war zones. More than all the ranged classes and they are very good players. If anything melee needs to be nerfed a bit not ranged and most certainly not Mercs. Edited October 11, 2018 by Whynotdothis

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I might add I can do 7k dps and 2k hps on my Juggernaut and Sin in war zones. More than all the ranged classes and they are very good players. If anything melee needs to be nerfed a bit not ranged and most certainly not Mercs.

 

I couldn't disagree with the two of you more on the melee/ranged differences.

 

Respecfully, I can't take anyone seriously who will not aknowledge uptime differences between ranged and melee. You are both carefully sidestepping the amount of slows ranged specs have, and the fact the resolve has no effect on slows. So all those rotational slows, in addition to all the extra slows that can be speced into and abilties like Plamsa probe which can keep someone slowed forever play massive parts of normal pvp form.

 

Lose the slows and you may start to have some small semblance of point, and you are also forgetting the fact that ranged have movement buffs too all on their own and in some cases, more than melee do.

 

Merc DCDs are as broken as broken gets. Snipers have far too much control over melee to obscene levels unless you are Fury. and a pure DPS class has no business having heals, if it's okay for Snipers than give Marauders heals too. [ For the record, I don't think Marauders should have heals, they shouldn't, and neither should snipers. I have screenies of Snipers healing up to 700k in a WZ. Pure DPS classes have no business having heals.] Skank Tanks are broken too.

 

35/30 - 4 = 31/26. If you don't think those kinds of differences matter in when you can and can't attack, I can't take one thing you say seriously.

 

Ranged Meta. Maybe read some other posts, tons of people think the same.

 

Mercs and Snipers in PVP, OP AF.

 

But we'll know for sure come 6.0 if the Devs agree or not. You keep Snipers and Mercs as is now and the realtive form of the melee class, I'd say the chances there ever being a 7.0 are slim to none in my opinion.

 

When people say these are L2P issues that is just code for "Please don't take my advantage away".

Edited October 11, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[xMaranathax]

Not really a balance issue, but I would love to see a new class in general come with 6.0. I was really hoping we would get a Zakuul Knight class in 5.0. One whose story started off in the ranks of the Eternal Empire, but decides to leave and join the alliance, then choosing whether to support the Empire or the Republic. I was really hoping for a shield tank, a pike dps, and a healer role in this class.

 

It would change the game if we could have a character start off at say, level 65.

[Whynotdothis]

I couldn't disagree with the two of you more on the melee/ranged differences.

 

Respecfully, I can't take anyone seriously who will not aknowledge uptime differences between ranged and melee. You are both carefully sidestepping the amount of slows ranged specs have, and the fact the resolve has no effect on slows. So all those rotational slows, in addition to all the extra slows that can be speced into and abilties like Plamsa probe which can keep someone slowed forever play massive parts of normal pvp form.

 

Lose the slows and you may start to have some small semblance of point, and you are also forgetting the fact that ranged have movement buffs too all on their own and in some cases, more than melee do.

 

Merc DCDs are as broken as broken gets. Snipers have far too much control over melee to obscene levels unless you are Fury. and a pure DPS class has no business having heals, if it's okay for Snipers than give Marauders heals too. [ For the record, I don't think Marauders should have heals, they shouldn't, and neither should snipers. I have screenies of Snipers healing up to 700k in a WZ. Pure DPS classes have no business having heals.] Skank Tanks are broken too.

 

35/30 - 4 = 31/26. If you don't think those kinds of differences matter in when you can and can't attack, I can't take one thing you say seriously.

 

Ranged Meta. Maybe read some other posts, tons of people think the same.

 

Mercs and Snipers in PVP, OP AF.

 

But we'll know for sure come 6.0 if the Devs agree or not. You keep Snipers and Mercs as is now and the realtive form of the melee class, I'd say the chances there ever being a 7.0 are slim to none in my opinion.

 

When people say these are L2P issues that is just code for "Please don't take my advantage away".

 

 

 

I can't take you seriously because your reading comprehension is pretty low. Melee and Ranged have the same amount of uptime. Melee have way more roots, interrupts, stuns, root breakers (i mean melee can use them more than ranged and has 2-3 abilities while ranged only get 1 (except sniper)) etc than ranged except for snipers. I am telling all the other melee to L2P because I have no issues playing as a melee in PvP. So by what you are crying about I have no advantages so I cannot be asking for my advantages to be taken away. So again L2P as a melee and shutup. All you people crying about mercs are completely garbage because, again as a melee, I have NO ISSUE KILLING MERCS. I also have no problem killing Sorc healers insanely fast but yet people still cry about Sorcs/Sages. All it is is bad players want their class that they like to play to be so broken OP compared to the others.

 

Take away the slows from ranged then take away all the gap closers on melee.

 

Operatives, maras, juggs, sins and PTs outperform all the ranged in every way except for sniper. And, no, I am not calling for a nerf on snipers just for ranged to get a little love because it's way too easy to kill ranged as a melee (if you are at least moderately good).

 

To recap shut the f*uck up when calling for nerfs/buffs because you have no idea what you're talking and need to get good. This starts by knowing all the classes and how to counter each one.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Whynotdothis

[KendraP]

Operatives, maras, juggs, sins and PTs outperform all the ranged in every way except for sniper. And, no, I am not calling for a nerf on snipers just for ranged to get a little love because it's way too easy to kill ranged as a melee (if you are at least moderately good).

 

To recap shut the f*uck up when calling for nerfs/buffs because you have no idea what you're talking and need to get good. This starts by knowing all the classes and how to counter each one.

 

I have no issue killing 99.9% of mercs as a dps guardian either because:

A. They're pretty interrupt prone

B. I'm better than 99% of them

 

That doesnt change the fact that mercs should get some of their damage back in exchange for a substantial chunk of survivability.

 

And PTs outperform mercs in PvP? Thats just asinine.

 

Currently, the 4 best performing solo queueing specs, in no particular order are arsenal merc, fury mara, engi sniper, and marksman sniper.

 

Notice a pattern? 3/4 are ranged and the other has more immunities than you can get from vaccinations.

 

But hey, we get it, you need 3 heal to fulls, an antifocus, and spammable self heals on a highly mobile ranged dps class to be viable against a melee class with no antifocus or heals (merc v pt if it wasnt obvious)

Edited October 11, 2018 by KendraP

[Whynotdothis]

I have no issue killing 99.9% of mercs as a dps guardian either because:

A. They're pretty interrupt prone

B. I'm better than 99% of them

 

That doesnt change the fact that mercs should get some of their damage back in exchange for a substantial chunk of survivability.

 

And PTs outperform mercs in PvP? Thats just asinine.

 

Currently, the 4 best performing solo queueing specs, in no particular order are arsenal merc, fury mara, engi sniper, and marksman sniper.

 

Notice a pattern? 3/4 are ranged and the other has more immunities than you can get from vaccinations.

 

But hey, we get it, you need 3 heal to fulls, an antifocus, and spammable self heals on a highly mobile ranged dps class to be viable against a melee class with no antifocus or heals (merc v pt if it wasnt obvious)

 

 

 

But hey I guess using interrupt on Tracer Missile is too hard. I guess you can't stun a Merc at the right times (when reflect or kolto overloads are used). I guess you attack into the orange barrier (reflect) that's meant to deter people from being able to kill Mercs within 4s. I guess you can't use any kind of dcd for their once in a while heavy hitter (heatseeker missiles). I guess you can't kite and LOS when you have Electronet on you. I guess you still can't figure out that if a Merc has 3 heal to fulls you're doing it all wrong. Btw a 40% heal (Energy Shield) is not a heal to full, a 60% heal for 10-12s (I can't remember the duration of Kolto Overload) can still be burned through, and I don't know what the third heal to full is. But hey I should just jump onto a Merc and kill all the ******* that let Mercs heal using Energy Shield and by not doing any of the things mentioned. Merc will have no survivability if you nerf their dcds or take any away. But hey I guess everyone does all this to Mercs (which I know you don't). Also, Merc is one of the least mobile classes in the game. They get hydraulic overrides every 45s and a move that propels them backwards 20m but gets stopped if there is even the slightest crack in the terrain or a leaf.

 

But I get it. You only want to play as a melee and want the ranged to be nerfed out of the game so you don't have to think or work for kills. Not that you have to think or work for a kill as a melee against ranged.

[KendraP]

Hahahaha a sniper is less mobile than a merc. At least they do have to stop to cast most of their rotation and deal with cover mechanics.

 

Also, reading comprehension is your friend: i said mercs were interrupt prone in my first sentence.

 

And actually, yes, kiting and LOS is more difficult with electronet on you. You see, unlike mercs, most of us dont get 3 lives. You know since thats kind of electronet's purpose.

 

As a dps guardian, sorcs are usually toast unless they're good at kiting, mercs will beat me if they use their defensives effectively, and snipers have no excuse to lose to me.

 

But hey, keep ranting like a true merc fotmer, i was bored anyway.

[Whynotdothis]

Hahahaha a sniper is less mobile than a merc. At least they do have to stop to cast most of their rotation and deal with cover mechanics.

 

Also, reading comprehension is your friend: i said mercs were interrupt prone in my first sentence.

 

And actually, yes, kiting and LOS is more difficult with electronet on you. You see, unlike mercs, most of us dont get 3 lives. You know since thats kind of electronet's purpose.

 

As a dps guardian, sorcs are usually toast unless they're good at kiting, mercs will beat me if they use their defensives effectively, and snipers have no excuse to lose to me.

 

But hey, keep ranting like a true merc fotmer, i was bored anyway.

 

 

 

LOL how stupid are you? I MAINLY PLAY MELEE IN PVP. I've typed that several times already. I don't do ranged in PvP unless to change it up and even then it's to get on an Operative healer. Also, again you're so stupid that you think Mercs get 3 lives. They have 3 Dcds, kolto overload on a 3 minute timer, energy shield on a 1 minute 45s timer (not counting the utility), and their reflect with a 3 minute timer. I would include Chaff Flare (45s timer) but it's a friggen joke. Compare that to the 90s timer on Enraged Defense and the 45s timer on Stealth Out. Also, snipers are way more mobile than mercs are. Again you need to learn to play before you come onto the forums and spat stupid. Also, mercs have to cast tracer missile except once in a while that they get it to be instant (sometimes two) without that being used they are waiting to use it to proc other abilities. Keep entertaining me with how much more stupid you can type. I'm highly intrigued by how dumb someone can truly be.

[memerobot]

But hey I guess using interrupt on Tracer Missile is too hard....

 

One can always have priming shot or use the buff for insta cast. Or even fake a channel to bait interrupt.

 

...I guess you can't stun a Merc at the right times (when reflect or kolto overloads are used)...

 

If you are smart, you pop these defensives when you know you're getting into trouble in a stunlock, as a merc. You rarely use them while being out of them.

 

...I guess you attack into the orange barrier (reflect) that's meant to deter people from being able to kill Mercs within 4s...

 

Sorry, warzones/arenas aren't 1v1s so there will be other players ruining the moment. And honestly, if you consider AOE damage as 'reliable' to deal with this, please... There's only 1 spec that can do massive aoe damage and that's Engi Sniper, and in trade of enormous energy waste. Yes, dots also work but the dots that tick heavy cause the reflect to proc while the light ones don't but the damage is nothing.

 

I guess you can't use any kind of dcd for their once in a while heavy hitter (heatseeker missiles)....

 

Not all classes can spam defensives every 20s - 30s. And kiting abilities can be considered as defensives, yes.

 

I guess you can't kite and LOS when you have Electronet on you.

 

Electronets are MEANT to deter movements and Mercs can spam aoe through corners in a large area (5m is bigger than it appears to be) thus makes the LOS pointless since it will keep the player in combat

 

...I guess you still can't figure out that if a Merc has 3 heal to fulls you're doing it all wrong. Btw a 40% heal (Energy Shield) is not a heal to full, a 60% heal for 10-12s (I can't remember the duration of Kolto Overload) can still be burned through, and I don't know what the third heal to full is...

 

Root on missile utility. 8s CD and lasts 5s. That gives you 3s of free time for melee to walk freely.

What does this mean? Kite ability(lets say Rocket Out), gain distance, missile to root, off heal, combat, another kite ability(Hydraulics f.e.), gain distance, missile to root, offheal, combat, and another kiting ability(Knockback f.e.), gain distance, missile, offheal, combat... Rinse and repeat.

And add a defensive here that helps to heal up (shield is spammable every 30s and can be clicked off for 'faster heals' if constantly attacked and dots help a lot in this regard and others can be used in between in case shield is out) and there in between these 'rotations' of abilities

 

...But hey I should just jump onto a Merc and kill all the ******* that let Mercs heal using Energy Shield and by not doing any of the things mentioned...

 

There's always others ruining the fun as I said before

 

...Merc will have no survivability if you nerf their dcds or take any away. But hey I guess everyone does all this to Mercs (which I know you don't)....

 

Honestly, they should just lose the retarded heal on reflect imo. It is broken in every regard. They can take no damage whatsoever but healing like that too? Come on.

 

...Also, Merc is one of the least mobile classes in the game. They get hydraulic overrides every 45s and a move that propels them backwards 20m but gets stopped if there is even the slightest crack in the terrain or a leaf...

 

Good joke but here, I'll type the same as above:

Root on missile utility. 8s CD and lasts 5s. That gives you 3s of free time for melee to walk freely.

What does this mean? Kite ability(lets say Rocket Out), gain distance, missile to root, heal, combat, another kite ability(Hydraulics f.e.), gain distance, missile to root, combat, and another kiting ability(Knockback f.e.), gain distance, missile, heal... Rinse and repeat. And then you have net as well.

 

Say there's no mobility here, please.

 

... But I get it. You only want to play as a melee and want the ranged to be nerfed out of the game so you don't have to think or work for kills. Not that you have to think or work for a kill as a melee against ranged.

 

I play both melee and ranged and I have a preference in playing ranged but even I can admit that Merc defensives are just retarded. The fact they were added just makes it feel like devs added because they don't know how to PvP with this class. The good ones weren't always wiped off the map.

I'll say what I got told many times before. Balance the class around the very top players and not the mediocre/bad ones because if it is the 2nd choice, honestly, the game becomes stupid.

 

Edit: Take this with a grain of salt or not. This is not meant to hurt your butt. Just open the eyes and accept the truth, really.

That small rotation of kiting abilities I typed above, in case you want to know, can make operatives cry like ****.

Just practice it a bit and you'll see.

As for bonus, I'll give you a fact. Operative, specially Concealment, was meant to be the very top 1v1 class. A niche role but it is clearly built for that but Merc, as it is now, can top it rather easy.

Edited October 11, 2018 by memerobot

[KendraP]

LOL how stupid are you? I MAINLY PLAY MELEE IN PVP. I've typed that several times already. I don't do ranged in PvP unless to change it up and even then it's to get on an Operative healer. Also, again you're so stupid that you think Mercs get 3 lives. They have 3 Dcds, kolto overload on a 3 minute timer, energy shield on a 1 minute 45s timer (not counting the utility), and their reflect with a 3 minute timer. I would include Chaff Flare (45s timer) but it's a friggen joke. Compare that to the 90s timer on Enraged Defense and the 45s timer on Stealth Out. Also, snipers are way more mobile than mercs are. Again you need to learn to play before you come onto the forums and spat stupid. Also, mercs have to cast tracer missile except once in a while that they get it to be instant (sometimes two) without that being used they are waiting to use it to proc other abilities. Keep entertaining me with how much more stupid you can type. I'm highly intrigued by how dumb someone can truly be.

 

Hmm FD is one life that you can totally ignore and burn through with at least one other player and is no more difficult to work around than merc reflect (in fact arguably easier).

 

Please debate guardians with me. Mercs and snipers i know primarily from playing against them. Guardians ive mained for 6 years.

 

And anyone thinking a guardian or shadow is half as survivable as a merc is the biggest idiot that has ever posted on this forum.

 

Im entertained by how much of a defensive merc fotmer someone can be. (And i hate using that term).

Edited October 11, 2018 by KendraP

[Whynotdothis]

One can always have priming shot or use the buff for insta cast. Or even fake a channel to bait interrupt.

 

From what i've been seeing priming shot misses quite a bit in pvp. it's not reliable.

 

 

If you are smart, you pop these defensives when you know you're getting into trouble in a stunlock, as a merc. You rarely use them while being out of them.

 

Depending on the circumstances.

 

 

Sorry, warzones/arenas aren't 1v1s so there will be other players ruining the moment. And honestly, if you consider AOE damage as 'reliable' to deal with this, please... There's only 1 spec that can do massive aoe damage and that's Engi Sniper, and in trade of enormous energy waste. Yes, dots also work but the dots that tick heavy cause the reflect to proc while the light ones don't but the damage is nothing.

 

Where did I ever say that AOE damage is a reliable way to deal with the reflect. I've always said to stun. I forgot to add LOS until it's over.

 

 

Not all classes can spam defensives every 20s - 30s. And kiting abilities can be considered as defensives, yes.

 

Anti-kiting abilities such as Blade Blitz and Predation can be used a lot more than what Mercs have. Also, if you want to add rooting into kiting abilities the melee have more than ranged. Rooting a merc negates their Rocket Out.

 

 

Electronets are MEANT to deter movements and Mercs can spam aoe through corners in a large area (5m is bigger than it appears to be) thus makes the LOS pointless since it will keep the player in combat

 

Electronets are used in conjuction with a knockback to keep melee off them. When knocked back and electronetted just LOS. Sure you'll take some damage but usually only up to 5-6 stacks.

 

 

Root on missile utility. 8s CD and lasts 5s. That gives you 3s of free time for melee to walk freely.

What does this mean? Kite ability(lets say Rocket Out), gain distance, missile to root, off heal, combat, another kite ability(Hydraulics f.e.), gain distance, missile to root, offheal, combat, and another kiting ability(Knockback f.e.), gain distance, missile, offheal, combat... Rinse and repeat.

And add a defensive here that helps to heal up (shield is spammable every 30s and can be clicked off for 'faster heals' if constantly attacked and dots help a lot in this regard and others can be used in between in case shield is out) and there in between these 'rotations' of abilities

 

I've only seen just a handful of mercs take that ability because it's pretty much a waste of a utility point. The root ends when you take damage. As you pointed out warzones (including ranked) are not 1v1s and someone always uses some kind of AOE. Also by the time Rocket Out or knockback is used I have my leap back so no those are not good kiting abilities. As I've stated before you can burn a merc through their defensive abilities except their reflect. That's just there to keep them from getting globalled in 4s like it used to be.

 

 

There's always others ruining the fun as I said before

 

Yes like the Missile Blast root.

 

Honestly, they should just lose the retarded heal on reflect imo. It is broken in every regard. They can take no damage whatsoever but healing like that too? Come on.

 

I would agree that the healing mercs should lose that but not the dps mercs. It is not broken. Just too many stupid people attack into it with single target damage. Should enraged defense be nerfed too because that's a lot better than the reflect mercs have.

 

 

Good joke but here, I'll type the same as above:

Root on missile utility. 8s CD and lasts 5s. That gives you 3s of free time for melee to walk freely.

What does this mean? Kite ability(lets say Rocket Out), gain distance, missile to root, heal, combat, another kite ability(Hydraulics f.e.), gain distance, missile to root, combat, and another kiting ability(Knockback f.e.), gain distance, missile, heal... Rinse and repeat. And then you have net as well.

 

The joke is on you. Read above.

 

Say there's no mobility here, please.

 

I didn't say they didn't have mobility. I said they have the least amount of mobility out of all the classes.

 

I play both melee and ranged and I have a preference in playing ranged but even I can admit that Merc defensives are just retarded. The fact they were added just makes it feel like devs added because they don't know how to PvP with this class. The good ones weren't always wiped off the map.

I'll say what I got told many times before. Balance the class around the very top players and not the mediocre/bad ones because if it is the 2nd choice, honestly, the game becomes stupid.

 

I mainly play melee in PvP and when I get a chance to DD in NiM i have to be ranged because my computer can't handle me being near a wall. And I can admit that despite not being bad defensive abilities they should in no way be nerfed. And yes balance the classes around the top players. You know the ones that know how to counter what the other is doing.

 

Edit: Take this with a grain of salt or not. This is not meant to hurt your butt. Just open the eyes and accept the truth, really.

That small rotation of kiting abilities I typed above, in case you want to know, can make operatives cry like ****.

Just practice it a bit and you'll see.

As for bonus, I'll give you a fact. Operative, specially Concealment, was meant to be the very top 1v1 class. A niche role but it is clearly built for that but Merc, as it is now, can top it rather easy.

 

Yes, you need to open your eyes to what is really going on and stop listening to the same bad players crying about mercs. I have a hard time against Snipers and that's the only class that I have a hard time dealing with. Even still I do not come on here crying for a friggen nerf. I just realize I need to learn how to go against them. Again people have been brought up with the mentality that they are perfect and that if they can't achieve something it's not their fault. This is a clear example of it and I'm sick of it.

 

Also, no operative cries like a b*itch when being kited because they have all the tools necessary to counter that. As for a bonus fact, if played properly Operative can 1v2, 1v3 people still. I do it and I'm not even that good with it.

 

P.S. I don't know how to break up the quotes in a single response so it may look a bit weird.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Whynotdothis

[memerobot]

You don't know how to. See the QUOTE and /QUOTE and properly put them to separate your lines from the others.

 

Now to start:

 

1) From what i've been seeing priming shot misses quite a bit in pvp. it's not reliable.

 

It misses like any other attack.

 

2) Depending on the circumstances.

 

Depends on what? Your teammates are mezed and you are hardstunned. You break hardstun and use a defensive. So... what's hard about that? Are you going to say they will let you run away free after mezzing your entire team, when you have the possibility of escaping their grasp? No, you'll get hardstunned and your job is to escape that.

 

3) Where did I ever say that AOE damage is a reliable way to deal with the reflect. I've always said to stun. I forgot to add LOS until it's over.

 

So, you stun and then what? If you mean mez, yes, now hardstun? No.

And yes, only AOE pretty much works since some dots, for some retard reason, also procs the reflect. Not fun at all.

 

 

4) Anti-kiting abilities such as Blade Blitz and Predation can be used a lot more than what Mercs have. Also, if you want to add rooting into kiting abilities the melee have more than ranged. Rooting a merc negates their Rocket Out.

 

Check the CDs of all abilities and you'll see that the CDs are lower on merc.

 

 

5)Electronets are used in conjuction with a knockback to keep melee off them. When knocked back and electronetted just LOS. Sure you'll take some damage but usually only up to 5-6 stacks.

 

Depends heavily on where you are placed. Sometimes you may not need to stack that much but given the fact that a Merc is Ranged DPS, they'll use it in open area or at a place rather distant from any form of LoS, thus breaking the point of 'hiding behind'.

 

 

6) I've only seen just a handful of mercs take that ability because it's pretty much a waste of a utility point. The root ends when you take damage. As you pointed out warzones (including ranked) are not 1v1s and someone always uses some kind of AOE. Also by the time Rocket Out or knockback is used I have my leap back so no those are not good kiting abilities. As I've stated before you can burn a merc through their defensive abilities except their reflect. That's just there to keep them from getting globalled in 4s like it used to be.

 

It's not that 'waste of utility' point honestly, given it has the power to root for 5s. DPS on opponent team is very low HP, healer/tank of the opponent team runs to keep in range. Merc roots healer/tank, thus isolating the DPS to sucessfully kill. Yes, there's only a handful of mercs using it but they know its potential and exploit it pretty hard. As I said, try it yourself.

 

Burning through merc heals isn't exactly something one can do alone. Sometimes not even 2 DPS can do so, depending on the circumstances. And good mercs from back then didn't get globalled in 4s. They learned how to react to it and they were top players for a reason.

 

 

7) Yes like the Missile Blast root.

 

Forgot to mention this usually happens in regs. In ranked, rarely, since even though there's damage, the root effect only disappears after 2s and upon taking damage.

 

8) I would agree that the healing mercs should lose that but not the dps mercs. It is not broken. Just too many stupid people attack into it with single target damage. Should enraged defense be nerfed too because that's a lot better than the reflect mercs have.

 

Yes on merc DPS, as well. It's broken, regardless of soec.

Don't call it "stupid because people attack into it" because that's the same as saying "Hurrdurr, people are stupid for attackin into Jugg's ED, Concealment Operative's Rolls, etc".

And no, Enraged Defense is not better than reflect of mercs. Juggs still take full damage and then get healed. If they take 10k damage and heals is 15k, they get healed only 5k in the end. Multiply by 12 and that's 60k heal only.

Merc can take 40k damage on reflect, take no damage, 20k is absorbed and another 20k is reflected and then the merc is also healed. It's stupid. That's 20k x number of attacks reflected + X% x number of attacks that they received. I believe it is 5%? Even though it feels like its more.

 

 

9) The joke is on you. Read above.

 

Right back at ya.

 

 

10) I didn't say they didn't have mobility. I said they have the least amount of mobility out of all the classes.

 

Even if limited, they can still be more mobile than you think.

 

 

11) Yes, you need to open your eyes to what is really going on and stop listening to the same bad players crying about mercs.

 

I can deal with them, or most of them, but the fact that they still get ahead just because is just mind blowing. You commit one mistake, you're dead. They commit one, two, three or more mistakes, they can still get away with it.

 

 

12) I have a hard time against Snipers and that's the only class that I have a hard time dealing with.

 

If you can selfheal, just toy with LOS.

 

 

13) Also, no operative cries like a b*itch when being kited because they have all the tools necessary to counter that.

 

Against the rooting missile, it's actually hard. Try it yourself against a proper merc.

 

14) As for a bonus fact, if played properly Operative can 1v2, 1v3 people still. I do it and I'm not even that good with it.

 

1v3? Only if against stupid players. And in that case, I went as far as taking down 3 players and leaving 2 more in the brink of death in a 1v5. And I played as a damned Lethality.

1v2? Only if one of them is dumb. If you play Concealment, they just need wait for you to waste your rolls and catch you in a proper root/stun lock. You're dead. Simple.

Edited October 11, 2018 by memerobot

[Whynotdothis]

You don't know how to. See the QUOTE and /QUOTE and properly put them to separate your lines from the others.

 

Now to start:

 

1) From what i've been seeing priming shot misses quite a bit in pvp. it's not reliable.

 

It misses like any other attack.

 

I don't miss with any of my attacks as a melee unless mara if the other player doesn't have something on me like obfuscate or diversion. So, no, that assertion is wrong.

 

2) Depending on the circumstances.

 

Depends on what? Your teammates are mezed and you are hardstunned. You break hardstun and use a defensive. So... what's hard about that? Are you going to say they will let you run away free after mezzing your entire team, when you have the possibility of escaping their grasp? No, you'll get hardstunned and your job is to escape that.

 

LOL the entire team is mezzed? Really?, I've never seen that as there are always a dot on someone. Or we don't stack so they can't hit all of us. In which case, the healer cleanses the stun. I pretty sure 99% of people don't know you can do that.

 

3) Where did I ever say that AOE damage is a reliable way to deal with the reflect. I've always said to stun. I forgot to add LOS until it's over.

 

So, you stun and then what? If you mean mez, yes, now hardstun? No.

And yes, only AOE pretty much works since some dots, for some retard reason, also procs the reflect. Not fun at all.

 

**** really? Stun and LOS. It's not that hard to do in the vast majority of the circumstances. Stop being lazy.

 

4) Anti-kiting abilities such as Blade Blitz and Predation can be used a lot more than what Mercs have. Also, if you want to add rooting into kiting abilities the melee have more than ranged. Rooting a merc negates their Rocket Out.

 

Check the CDs of all abilities and you'll see that the CDs are lower on merc.

 

I'm pretty sure I have checked them all and the ones for melee are lower than mercs.

 

5)Electronets are used in conjuction with a knockback to keep melee off them. When knocked back and electronetted just LOS. Sure you'll take some damage but usually only up to 5-6 stacks.

 

Depends heavily on where you are placed. Sometimes you may not need to stack that much but given the fact that a Merc is Ranged DPS, they'll use it in open area or at a place rather distant from any form of LoS, thus breaking the point of 'hiding behind'.

 

This is mostly a player issue not having the awareness of their surroundings. Need to figure that one out on your own. I don't have the time to explain everything.

 

6) I've only seen just a handful of mercs take that ability because it's pretty much a waste of a utility point. The root ends when you take damage. As you pointed out warzones (including ranked) are not 1v1s and someone always uses some kind of AOE. Also by the time Rocket Out or knockback is used I have my leap back so no those are not good kiting abilities. As I've stated before you can burn a merc through their defensive abilities except their reflect. That's just there to keep them from getting globalled in 4s like it used to be.

 

It's not that 'waste of utility' point honestly, given it has the power to root for 5s. DPS on opponent team is very low HP, healer/tank of the opponent team runs to keep in range. Merc roots healer/tank, thus isolating the DPS to sucessfully kill. Yes, there's only a handful of mercs using it but they know its potential and exploit it pretty hard. As I said, try it yourself.

 

Yes, it's a huge waste of a utility. If you take it and use Missile Blast you lose DPS/DCDS/Healing. Plus the rooting effect is really only semi-useful in 1v1 situations. But like you stated before arenas are not 1v1s.

 

Burning through merc heals isn't exactly something one can do alone. Sometimes not even 2 DPS can do so, depending on the circumstances. And good mercs from back then didn't get globalled in 4s. They learned how to react to it and they were top players for a reason.

 

If you are at least a mediocre player you can. And yes good mercs pre 4.0 got globalled in 4s. The only one that didn't was Sky Larsh because he was healing.

 

7) Yes like the Missile Blast root.

 

Forgot to mention this usually happens in regs. In ranked, rarely, since even though there's damage, the root effect only disappears after 2s and upon taking damage.

 

8) I would agree that the healing mercs should lose that but not the dps mercs. It is not broken. Just too many stupid people attack into it with single target damage. Should enraged defense be nerfed too because that's a lot better than the reflect mercs have.

 

Yes on merc DPS, as well. It's broken, regardless of soec.

Don't call it "stupid because people attack into it" because that's the same as saying "Hurrdurr, people are stupid for attackin into Jugg's ED, Concealment Operative's Rolls, etc".

And no, Enraged Defense is not better than reflect of mercs. Juggs still take full damage and then get healed. If they take 10k damage and heals is 15k, they get healed only 5k in the end. Multiply by 12 and that's 60k heal only.

Merc can take 40k damage on reflect, take no damage, 20k is absorbed and another 20k is reflected and then the merc is also healed. It's stupid. That's 20k x number of attacks reflected + X% x number of attacks that they received. I believe it is 5%? Even though it feels like its more.

 

If merc reflect is broken so is Enraged Defense. When I can heal from literally 1% to 100% in 1-2 GCDs there is something wrong. If you

 

9) The joke is on you. Read above.

 

Right back at ya.

 

No, really, you need to learn to play at a higher level than SM Warrior or 1k rating.

 

10) I didn't say they didn't have mobility. I said they have the least amount of mobility out of all the classes.

 

Even if limited, they can still be more mobile than you think.

 

No, I know what their limits are. I see many of them in Ranked and they are not nearly as mobile as you think.

 

11) Yes, you need to open your eyes to what is really going on and stop listening to the same bad players crying about mercs.

 

I can deal with them, or most of them, but the fact that they still get ahead just because is just mind blowing. You commit one mistake, you're dead. They commit one, two, three or more mistakes, they can still get away with it.

 

LOLOLOLOLOL a merc that makes 1-3 mistakes is usually dead really soon. You should really learn to play so as to not make more mistakes than a merc or anyone else for that matter.

 

12) I have a hard time against Snipers and that's the only class that I have a hard time dealing with.

 

If you can selfheal, just toy with LOS.

 

Yeah, I'm going to take the advice of someone that is crying about mercs.

 

13) Also, no operative cries like a b*itch when being kited because they have all the tools necessary to counter that.

 

Against the rooting missile, it's actually hard. Try it yourself against a proper merc.

 

Have several times. Although annoying not hard to get past.

 

14) As for a bonus fact, if played properly Operative can 1v2, 1v3 people still. I do it and I'm not even that good with it.

 

1v3? Only if against stupid players. And in that case, I went as far as taking down 3 players and leaving 2 more in the brink of death in a 1v5. And I played as a damned Lethality.

1v2? Only if one of them is dumb. If you play Concealment, they just need wait for you to waste your rolls and catch you in a proper root/stun lock. You're dead. Simple.

 

No, just learn to play.

[KendraP]

No, just learn to play.

 

LOL meme and I disagree on practically everything but we can apparently agree on one thing: you are the one who needs to learn to play a merc

[memerobot]

@Kendra Right now I am thinking, this guy(not you) is either a troll or actually has "that" kind of problems. Edited October 12, 2018 by memerobot