Time to merge the US servers... again. Primetime window getting smaller and smaller.

[Kiesu]

Then why not simply ask that for the same amount of time spent in a fp and in a wz that the xp reward is the same ? That should be pretty easy to implement and let people who actually enjoy using PvP to lvl do it rather than running fp they don't like.

Yes. I haven't ran lowbie FPs at all after they turned them all into tacticals. Absolutely hate the free-for-all koltofests they turned into. And to think I used to buy FP xp boosts and level characters purely trough FPs when they still had level-and-role requirements...

 

The XP granted from lowbie WZ is so abysmally small it's a nonsensical way of leveling, and always has been. They granted you WZ comms for the endgame pvp gear before which was a fair trade back then. But now they don't grant you those either. They're literally good for nothing currently.

[Seireeni]

Then why not simply ask that for the same amount of time spent in a fp and in a wz that the xp reward is the same ? That should be pretty easy to implement and let people who actually enjoy using PvP to lvl do it rather than running fp they don't like.

 

How would you balance that? A warzone can last a very short time or a very long time, depending on whether or not the teams are balanced, or if one side is completely steamrolling the other one. In the other hand, you can do a flashpoint slowly, or you can do a speedrun with 4 dps. I think it's next to impossible to make sure different contents would give equal amount of xp. (But if having them give more xp would be enough to encourage people, I'll take it.)

 

 

You mean Command Tokens? With those you can buy entry-level gear currently (230).

Not ideal, but at-least you can use them to buy CXP boosts and Iokath Recombinators for endgame grind and crafting with them... Honestly I'd much rather take the UCs, my alts are always in need of implants and relic updates.

 

I meant UCs, but if command tokens would work, hey, why not. I really don't care what they give, I just want to be able to level my (numerous) alts to replay class stories and pvp at the same time.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Seireeni

[IoNonSoEVero]

(Note: all these numbers are fake, I have not done actual research on the subject)

Why is it fair someone can do a flashpoint in 20 minutes and get 3000 xp, and someone else does a lowbie warzone and gets 1000 xp instead, and someone else does a long exploration quest and gets 500 xp?

 

EDIT: Base line is, right now people do "play the content for the level-appropriate gear or credits (or xp) or don't." Many pvp players pick the latter option for lowbie/midbie. I understand you don't give a damn about us who do enjoy that game style, but we exist, and it is a problem for us when Bioware makes changes to the game that makes people less likely to queue. I don't care how you encourage people to play that mode, but I do feel some encouragement is needed -- and that encouragement needs to be something that's effective.

 

XP isn't gear.

 

I don't care if they encourage PvP participation but I do care if they do that by giving PvPers more of a leg up with special rewards than other players get. If a lowbie participating in PvE doesn't get UCs or Command Tokens, neither should PvPers.

 

If PvP matches at low levels get UCs they should give the same to lowbies doing PvE content.

[Seireeni]

XP isn't gear.

 

I don't care if they encourage PvP participation but I do care if they do that by giving PvPers more of a leg up with special rewards than other players get. If a lowbie participating in PvE doesn't get UCs or Command Tokens, neither should PvPers.

 

If PvP matches at low levels get UCs they should give the same to lowbies doing PvE content.

 

So simply because you personally view gear to be more valuable than XP, it's not fair to give different amounts of gear from different contents, but it's just fine to give different amount of xp? Cool.

 

The point of encouraging certain play mode is for that play mode to, in some way, give better rewards than other play modes. If everything would give UCs or Command Tokens, then flashpoints would still be the best way to level for those pvp players and nothing would be fixed. But you're a smart woman and probably already know this.

[IoNonSoEVero]

So simply because you personally view gear to be more valuable than XP, it's not fair to give different amounts of gear from different contents, but it's just fine to give different amount of xp? Cool.

 

The point of encouraging certain play mode is for that play mode to, in some way, give better rewards than other play modes. If everything would give UCs or Command Tokens, then flashpoints would still be the best way to level for those pvp players and nothing would be fixed. But you're a smart woman and probably already know this.

 

I don't necessarily think it's fine, but I think that it's different than giving someone at Level 30 gear or UCs that cannot be earned by any other playstyle until level 70. I think flashpoints and heroics actually should give more, and think it's bizarre that a heroic that takes 30 minutes and multiple parts gives the same rewards as one where you have to kill ten droids. But you do have the choice of only doing the shorter ones.

 

If all things are equal and people still don't play PvP...maybe they don't want to. Maybe that's just how it is. Why *should* PvP be encouraged more than others?

 

If you bribe PvP excessively do you think you're really going to get great participation? Since PvP gives rewards even if you lose, you're probably going to get people in there who couldn't care less and will be afk or doing the bare minimum to get their UCs.

[Seireeni]

I don't necessarily think it's fine, but I think that it's different than giving someone at Level 30 gear or UCs that cannot be earned by any other playstyle until level 70. I think flashpoints and heroics actually should give more, and think it's bizarre that a heroic that takes 30 minutes and multiple parts gives the same rewards as one where you have to kill ten droids. But you do have the choice of only doing the shorter ones.

 

If all things are equal and people still don't play PvP...maybe they don't want to. Maybe that's just how it is. Why *should* PvP be encouraged more than others?

 

If you bribe PvP excessively do you think you're really going to get great participation? Since PvP gives rewards even if you lose, you're probably going to get people in there who couldn't care less and will be afk or doing the bare minimum to get their UCs.

 

All things are not equal if all modes give the same gear but one mode gives more xp. That's the issue. PvP players level through flashpoints because they don't particularly care for lowbie/midbie warzones, warzones of that bracket don't give them rewards of any value, and flashpoints give more xp.

 

And why would you want to get even more xp from flashpoints, if your goal is to be fair and flashpoints already are the fastest way to level? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

Lowbie/midbie (and possibly GSF too, I think that's really struggling too when it comes to participation) should be encouraged more than others for the same reason tanks get better rewards for queuing to group finder ops. (Or, well, technically "high demand roles" get better rewards, but it's pretty much always tanks.) It's group content, it needs people. If those people don't feel the rewards are good enough for the amount of time or work it takes, the only options I see are upping those rewards, or giving up on the game style. If this encourages toxic behavior from non-pvpers, then we need better tools to deal with that behavior.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Seireeni

[Kiesu]

If all things are equal and people still don't play PvP...maybe they don't want to. Maybe that's just how it is. Why *should* PvP be encouraged more than others?

lv70 Reg PVP is actually the highest popping group activity in game currently. So saying "nobody wants to play PVP" is just wrong. And it gives good daily rewards (bad rewards if you completed the daily pvp quest already but keep quing without a quest anyway).

And it's sad that how low the pvp pops are, even when it's the highest popping activity. Flashpoints do not beat WZ on activity level (at lv 70).

 

GSF is possibly the lowest popping activity in game currently.

Vet Uprisings are not very active either, and I am pretty sure it's because Uprisings give lesser rewards than FPs for the same amount of effort, and are in many cases even harder than FPs. Rewards definitely play a role in player activity, because when Uprisings were new they gave so much reward literally everyone and their mothers were doing Uprisings. The Uprising rewards got later nerfed to oblivion and surprise surprise, it pops one in full moon. Coincidence?

Edited September 8, 2018 by Kiesu

[TrixxieTriss]

The thing is, as I understand it, the gear or tokens for gear given in PvP before were for gear that was useleas for PvE. Giving UCs is giving aomething all players need but can't earn until l 70 in other areas of the game. That puts PvPers at N advantage and isn't really right IMHO.

 

If they offer anytbing it should be level appropriate gear (you can still get those in planetary quests) or credits or XP boosts just like lowbie PvEers OR you guys should advocate for PvP specific gear again.

 

Actually, you couldn’t use the pvp Comms till max lvl either and the gear was always 1-2-3 lvls lower than the max gear operations guys could get, so the gear was crap for anything other than story.

It was only useful for pvp or OWPVP.

PVP Comms could be used for gear at lvl 70 or for medpacks from lvl 10.

From lvl 10 and lvl 64, pvpers had to wear pve gear that they had to farm or buy for their lvl. Bolster didn’t work as hard to give everyone the same gear lvl like it does now in pvp.

In pvp today, you can literally wear lvl 10 gear at lvl 69 in pvp and hardly lose any stats.

 

One idea I thought of is they make UCs a pvp currency only.

1. Allow pvpers to collect them in lowbies and Mids

2. Have 2 pvp gear lvls 244 and 248 (cap it at 248). Gear under this remains pve and bolsters to 242.

3. Reintroduce expertise and reorganise some stats in pvp gear, ie remove some accuracy (not needed as much in pvp by some classes and not needed at all by others). This will make it less affective in pve.

4. Make expertise a main pvp stat again so that higher lvl pve gear isn’t as good in pvp as the 248 pvp gear

5. Make command Comms for pve gear and don’t require UCs to buy the pve gear.

 

AKA, similar to the old gearing system.

 

This system keeps pvp and pve gear seperate. It allows pvers and pvpers to have their own currency for gear. The higher tier pve geared players won’t have a gear advantage in pvp and the pvp gear won’t be BiS for end game pve content.

 

It’s a win - win for both communities, importantly, it’s fair for everyone

 

Edit: command tokens could be added from lvl 10 as rewards at differring amounts for different content and scaled for the character lvl. Both pve and pvp. This could include conquest as well.

Edited September 8, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Seireeni]

Actually, you couldn’t use the pvp Comms till max lvl either

 

Nah, there was actually a vendor on DK (and Coruscant too I guess) who sold level 20 and level 40 gear for pvp comms, and fleet had a vendor who sold weapons for pvp comms. But, really, that's beside the point, pretty much no one was actually buying them.

[TrixxieTriss]

Nah, there was actually a vendor on DK (and Coruscant too I guess) who sold level 20 and level 40 gear for pvp comms, and fleet had a vendor who sold weapons for pvp comms. But, really, that's beside the point, pretty much no one was actually buying them.

 

Yeah but that gear was from the first days of the comm system and was crap by the time 3.0 came out. It was never updated and Bioware were just too lazy to remove those vendors or gear,

Nobody in their right mind used it.

Bioware only removed them with 5.0 because they were removing a tonne of other useless vendors.

Edited September 8, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Seireeni]

Yeah but that gear was from the first days of the comm system and was crap by the time 3.0 came out. It was never updated and Bioware were just too lazy to remove those vendors or gear,

Nobody in their right mind used it.

Bioware only removed them with 5.0 because they were removing a tonne of other useless vendors.

 

Possible. The only time I remember using those vendors was when I bought a shirt for my marauder because I liked the look of it, and that was before 2.0 I think.

[TrixxieTriss]

Possible. The only time I remember using those vendors was when I bought a shirt for my marauder because I liked the look of it, and that was before 2.0 I think.

 

Yep, 2.0 was the last time I used those vendors. Plus the gear wasn’t even pvp gear. It was blue pve gear that you could get faster doing flash points or heroics

[IoNonSoEVero]

Actually, you couldn’t use the pvp Comms till max lvl either and the gear was always 1-2-3 lvls lower than the max gear operations guys could get, so the gear was crap for anything other than story.

It was only useful for pvp or OWPVP.

PVP Comms could be used for gear at lvl 70 or for medpacks from lvl 10.

From lvl 10 and lvl 64, pvpers had to wear pve gear that they had to farm or buy for their lvl. Bolster didn’t work as hard to give everyone the same gear lvl like it does now in pvp.

In pvp today, you can literally wear lvl 10 gear at lvl 69 in pvp and hardly lose any stats.

 

One idea I thought of is they make UCs a pvp currency only.

1. Allow pvpers to collect them in lowbies and Mids

2. Have 2 pvp gear lvls 244 and 248 (cap it at 248). Gear under this remains pve and bolsters to 242.

3. Reintroduce expertise and reorganise some stats in pvp gear, ie remove some accuracy (not needed as much in pvp by some classes and not needed at all by others). This will make it less affective in pve.

4. Make expertise a main pvp stat again so that higher lvl pve gear isn’t as good in pvp as the 248 pvp gear

5. Make command Comms for pve gear and don’t require UCs to buy the pve gear.

 

AKA, similar to the old gearing system.

 

This system keeps pvp and pve gear seperate. It allows pvers and pvpers to have their own currency for gear. The higher tier pve geared players won’t have a gear advantage in pvp and the pvp gear won’t be BiS for end game pve content.

 

It’s a win - win for both communities, importantly, it’s fair for everyone

 

Edit: command tokens could be added from lvl 10 as rewards at differring amounts for different content and scaled for the character lvl. Both pve and pvp. This could include conquest as well.

 

I'd be absolutely fine with this.

[TrixxieTriss]

I'd be absolutely fine with this.

 

Maybe we should start promoting this option to the Devs before they get too far into the development of the new gearing system.

 

Would you care to take a shot at making a thread? I think if I do it, I might attract too many haters.

[IoNonSoEVero]

lv70 Reg PVP is actually the highest popping group activity in game currently. So saying "nobody wants to play PVP" is just wrong. And it gives good daily rewards (bad rewards if you completed the daily pvp quest already but keep quing without a quest anyway).

And it's sad that how low the pvp pops are, even when it's the highest popping activity. Flashpoints do not beat WZ on activity level (at lv 70).

 

 

If you'd been following, we're discussing lowbie PvP. That's been said several times and numerous PvPers here are complaining that nobody plays it and the rewards aren't good.

Edited September 9, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Seireeni]

If you'd been following, we're discussing lowbie PvP. That's been said several times and numerous PvPers here are complaining that nobody plays it and the rewards aren't good.

 

Actually, people who do play it have been trying to tell you why many other pvpers aren't bothering -- the rewards are bad when comparing to pve rewards. But close enough I guess?

 

Maybe we should start promoting this option to the Devs before they get too far into the development of the new gearing system.

 

Would you care to take a shot at making a thread? I think if I do it, I might attract too many haters.

 

What about healers, though? They don't really need accuracy in pvp or pve. And would you not allow customizing the pvp gear at all? Because if you can buy individual mods and enhancements, then you can turn that 248 pvp gear into 248 pve gear quite easily, just switch some more accuracy in there.

[TrixxieTriss]

If you'd been following, we're discussing lowbie PvP. That's been said several times and numerous PvPers here are complaining that nobody plays it and the rewards aren't good.

 

Exactly right. Lowbies and Mids just doesn’t pop or if it does, it’s nearly always Arena. It’s been so bad for me this week that there have only be about 5 of us in the Mids queue and the stupid system makes 2 v 3 teams instead of limiting it to 2 v 2. That makes people even less likely to play if they find themselves constantly on the 2 person team vs 3. (Like me).

 

There needs to be some real incentives to get people playing those brackets as they lvl.

The current system is very bad for the total health of pvp in this game and it’s one of the response the skill lvl has decreased and is still devolving at an alarming rate.

Pvp should be learnt before max lvl.

 

If I had my way, you would be gated from entering lvl 70 pvp and have to stay in Mids with lvl 60 abilities and utilities until you reached Valor 40. Then you could go into lvl 70 pvp.

That would make you spend time in the lower brackets to learn before you reach end game Pvp (of course that is highly controversial in this game where things are made so “everyone” can participate regardless of skill or gear, aka, ranked).

Of course the best way would be to just do the dailies for each lvl and you max your Valor each lvl you go. By the time you got to lvl 70, you would be Valor 50-60 and have no problems going straight into lvl 70 pvp.

Ranked should definitely be gated behind gear and Valor.

Edited September 9, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

What about healers, though? They don't really need accuracy in pvp or pve. And would you not allow customizing the pvp gear at all? Because if you can buy individual mods and enhancements, then you can turn that 248 pvp gear into 248 pve gear quite easily, just switch some more accuracy in there.

 

Does it really matter about the healers. They don’t have accuracy gear as it is. Plus the gear will be capped at 248.

 

You could still mod gear by having a mod vendor for pvp and it not work with pve items because you would lose expertise. The same as we use to have.

[Seireeni]

Does it really matter about the healers. They don’t have accuracy gear as it is. Plus the gear will be capped at 248.

 

You could still mod gear by having a mod vendor for pvp and it not work with pve items because you would lose expertise. The same as we use to have.

 

Ah, so the gear would be a lot worse stat wise, then? Because if you can work hard for 248 pve mods, or buy comparable pvp mods with easy access, the pve players aren't gonna like that.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Actually, people who do play it have been trying to tell you why many other pvpers aren't bothering -- the rewards are bad when comparing to pve rewards. But close enough I guess?

 

I'm honestly not sure what's different between what you and I said. The person I was referring to was attempting to say once again that I was wrong (which seems to be becoming a habit with that poster) because L 70 PvP is oh so popular. But we're discussing lowbie stuff.

[Kiesu]

If I had my way, you would be gated from entering lvl 70 pvp and have to stay in Mids with lvl 60 abilities and utilities until you reached Valor 40. Then you could go into lvl 70 pvp.

Oh jesus no. I have too many alts and keep making more (because reasons) and don't wanna be constantly stuck on midbies if I wanted to PVP on Mara5 instead of Mara1.

 

If you'd been following, we're discussing lowbie PvP. That's been said several times and numerous PvPers here are complaining that nobody plays it and the rewards aren't good.

Point of the post was about an example on pvp appeal being fine elsewhere and how rewards affect activity. But you conveniently cut that part off.

 

Actually, people who do play it have been trying to tell you why many other pvpers aren't bothering -- the rewards are bad when comparing to pve rewards. But close enough I guess?

Heh, not really. If you'd just do content for the rewards, you'd be better off doing OPS or FPs with a cxp boost. Gives you load more boxes just trough cxp levels. While PVP gives you an ok amount of UC, it gives you almost no cxp, so any extra loot from boxes is almost non-existent. If you would remove cxp lootboxes out of both, then the rewards would be closer.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Kiesu

[Seireeni]

I'm honestly not sure what's different between what you and I said. The person I was referring to was attempting to say once again that I was wrong (which seems to be becoming a habit with that poster) because L 70 PvP is oh so popular. But we're discussing lowbie stuff.

 

He was responding to your point regarding pvp not being appealing, making a point that endgame pvp is plenty appealing, and giving examples of other things that became unappealing after the rewards were changed.

 

And you don't see a difference between saying "PVE gives better rewards while leveling than PvP and that's why people don't PvP" and saying "pvp players are complaining no one does lowbie and rewards are bad"? Maybe it's because I haven't been sleeping well, but the latter one comes across as pretty belittling of my position to me.

[Seireeni]

Heh, not really. If you'd just do content for the rewards, you'd be better off doing OPS or FPs with a cxp boost. Gives you load more boxes just trough cxp levels. While PVP gives you an ok amount of UC, it gives you almost no cxp, so any extra loot from boxes is almost non-existent. If you would remove cxp lootboxes out of both, then the rewards would be closer.

 

If we talk about endgame, sure. But I've been trying to explain why many pvp players, who normally would choose to pvp despite getting worse rewards than raiders, don't bother with lowbie/midbie.

[TrixxieTriss]

Oh jesus no. I have too many alts and keep making more (because reasons) and don't wanna be constantly stuck on midbies if I wanted to PVP on Mara5 instead of Mara1

 

I’ve thought of this before because it’s an old discussion from years ago.

 

The way around that is to also have a legacy Valor for each class and total legacy. I like the idea of both working in conjunction.

 

This is how it would work.

 

1. Class legacy Valor - if your class legacy is valor 40. You can go into lvl 70 the same as your other class Alt.

2. Total legacy Valor - if you achieve Valor 100 on a class, you can take any class into lvl 70 even if you don’t have that class legacy at Valor 40.

Edited September 9, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[IoNonSoEVero]

He was responding to your point regarding pvp not being appealing, making a point that endgame pvp is plenty appealing, and giving examples of other things that became unappealing after the rewards were changed.

 

And you don't see a difference between saying "PVE gives better rewards while leveling than PvP and that's why people don't PvP" and saying "pvp players are complaining no one does lowbie and rewards are bad"? Maybe it's because I haven't been sleeping well, but the latter one comes across as pretty belittling of my position to me.

 

I really wasn't intending to belittle anything. PvPers HAVE been complaining that nobody plays lowbie. There also have been statements that rewards in lowbie PvP are bad (ie, not appealing enough to encourage people to play) and there have been pages now on how to ameliorate that. Statement of facts of what people are saying in the discussion. Not an insult.