Time to merge the US servers... again. Primetime window getting smaller and smaller.

[TrixxieTriss]

There's already some lag and weirdness on the servers from time to time, even with a smaller population. Bioware is all about saving money so I am sure if they felt it were financially and technologically feasible to merge they would have already done it regardless of what the players wanted.

 

I think its more their network or crappy hardware causing those issues because it’s certainly not getting stressed.

It probably still isn’t financially feasible because they lease the servers. They would need to wait till the lease ran out for it to make a difference financially (asset wise).

But if the lease runs out and they can save money, you can bet they will merge. They’ve proven in the past that cost saving is more important to them than player retention or growth.

They were happy to discard the majority of the original APAC community to save a dollar when they shut the APAC servers and they finished it last year when they moved the servers to the east coast. They also didn’t just lose apac players, they lost a portion for west coast players too.

It’s obvious that cost saving is more important than keep people. They willing sacrifice parts of the player base to save costs.

I’m not blaming the Devs for that either (although the unannounced move was underhanded).

The EA overlords are to blame because they only look at the bottom line and the poor Devs have to work out how to keep everyone happy without losing too many people.

Edited September 7, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

So I guess the question I would have is what concrete benefit would merging servers have at this point and how many people would that benefit effect vs how many people would be negatively affected. The title of this thread is an excellent example something mergers wouldn't even have a substantial effect on. What would really be gained from a merger?

 

A lot of merger talk seems to center around things that a merger wouldn't even fix. Queue times outside of primetime are not going to get significantly better by merging the two US servers together. The quality of PVP players is not likely to improve with a server merger, there just aren't enough of the "good" players left. Low level PVP is not going to be revitalized by a merger (the only way to do that would be to somehow force PVP leveling back through lowbies and midbies by something like eliminating the "start at tokens" so everyone has to level their characters again). The toxicity of the game is not going to improve, in fact it will probably get worse.

 

A lot of the merger impetus last time came from people who wanted free transfers off their current server. It would seem that reduced cost transfers would be more likely to improve things than an actual merger because people could move to the server that best supported their play style. People who only PVP or only Raid (or only farm Flashpoints for that matter) moving to one server on their own would not have a negative impact on planet populations because they never go there anyway. A server could accommodate much higher levels of those "instanced" players without negatively impacting the gameplay of those in non-instanced areas. A merger negatively impacts those non-instanced areas.

 

Things like name collisions, legacy bank overflows, increased "ninja" activity, increased time to complete objectives, etc. drive people away from the game.

 

Agreed +1

[jimmorrisson]

The only reason I’ve replied is to debunk the incorrect information

 

If you are from PVP-dominant sever Satele Shan know this: The only reason why RP-dominant server Star Forge has a larger population is because of the RP element. Excluding the RP population would see a much lower population server only active during East Coast America's primetime hours.

 

In retrospect merging all the PVE/PVP servers onto Satele Shan and all the RP-PVP/RP servers onto Star Forge would have been optimal. However that would would meant Bioware informing everyone months in advance that there was to be no more West Coast servers.

Edited October 25, 2018 by jimmorrisson

[TrixxieTriss]

If you are from PVP-dominant sever Satele Shan know this: The only reason why RP-dominant server Star Forge has a larger population is because of the RP element. Excluding the RP population would see a much lower population server only active during East Coast America's primetime hours.

 

In retrospect merging all the PVE/PVP servers onto Satele Shan and all the RP-PVP/RP server onto Star Forge would have bee optimal. However that would would meant Bioware informing everyone months in advance that there was to be more West Coast servers.

 

I play on Star Forge

[Lunafox]

IMHO I wouldn't second-guess the devs when they say the hardware won't accommodate everyone on both servers, even with the population as it is. There are ebbs and flows, and people come back when there are special events and new bits of content.

 

There's already some lag and weirdness on the servers from time to time, even with a smaller population. Bioware is all about saving money so I am sure if they felt it were financially and technologically feasible to merge they would have already done it regardless of what the players wanted.

 

I agree with you. I wouldn't second guess them either, only they know what they have and what it can do and I for one don't want to wait in queues to get access to the game when I want to play it, nor do I want to deal with a ridiculous amount of lag. And most definitely if they could've managed merging the two to save a buck they would've but they couldn't.

 

I'm thinking maybe the 90cc transfers would be useful again so that those who are unhappy can try somewhere else without making the rest of the people miserable.

 

Also, thank you TUXs, Casirabit and Andryah for your support and kind words. I appreciate them.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Lunafox

[Kiesu]

I'm thinking maybe the 90cc transfers would be useful again so that those who are unhappy can try somewhere else without making the rest of the people miserable.

The danger here is that the same will happen as before merges: With cheap transfers so many people transferred to the bigger server that the previous ones became obsolete and got merged anyway.

Cheap Transfers were supposed to do just that, let people who wanted to move to bigger-pops instance... Except it backfired and other servers got deserted and later merged anyway.

 

I mean cheap transfers is probably a good band-aid for a while, but we've already seen how that turned out once before.

[Andryah]

IMHO I wouldn't second-guess the devs when they say the hardware won't accommodate everyone on both servers, even with the population as it is. There are ebbs and flows, and people come back when there are special events and new bits of content.

 

There's already some lag and weirdness on the servers from time to time, even with a smaller population. Bioware is all about saving money so I am sure if they felt it were financially and technologically feasible to merge they would have already done it regardless of what the players wanted.

 

I agree.

 

In addition... one server is a single point of failure if there is a problem... and we have had cases in the past where some server went belly up.. and they did not always come back up within 30 minutes either.

 

Since many players are present and invested on both US servers... if one goes belly up for any reason (and high load is historically one of the more troubling triggers for server issues) players can simply relog to the other server and do things on that server until the dead server comes back up. It may not be the server they wanted to play on at that moment, but it is infinitely better than the alternative --> the entire NA population is frozen out of game play.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Andryah

[TrixxieTriss]

The danger here is that the same will happen as before merges: With cheap transfers so many people transferred to the bigger server that the previous ones became obsolete and got merged anyway.

Cheap Transfers were supposed to do just that, let people who wanted to move to bigger-pops instance... Except it backfired and other servers got deserted and later merged anyway.

 

I mean cheap transfers is probably a good band-aid for a while, but we've already seen how that turned out once before.

 

It becomes a selffulling prophecy or a catch 22 situation. Either way there is a trap involved that has negative consequences on population and player enjoyment or expectations.

 

Don’t merge and people leave. Do merge and people leave. Cheap transfers and people leave. No cheap transfers and people leave.

 

Sometimes doing nothing is the best course of action. But ignoring a problem by staying quiet doesn’t instill confidence and causes people to leave. This is what happened last year and then we ended up with mergers instead of Bioware trying other means to fix the problem (cheap transfers werent the answer at that time. They should have done free transfers before trying mergers).

 

There is obviously a problem for some people and merging seems like a solution to them. But I don’t think that will fix anything. The other option is cheaper transfers to allow those people to move to green pastures. Except that has its own pit holes.

 

I think the best thing for Bioware to do is open up a line of communication with the players to discuss how to help those who are currently negatively affected by lack of population outside of primetime.

[IoNonSoEVero]

IMHO it would also help if those who are concerned about lack of population in their specific area looked inward and realized that maybe the lack of participation isn't all about others.

 

Maybe the population is low for PvP because people don't like PvP and don't want to play it, and maybe nothing will change that. The incentives to do low-level PvE missions, like the planetary and exploration quests, are low and yet people do them. There are less complaints about PvE queues popping. So maybe it's not just low population.

 

The toxic environment in PvP has been mentioned a lot and yet nearly every time, it seems to get waved away by PvPers. Maybe it's time for the PvP community to realize it really does drive a lot of people away and that it's going to take effort on the community's part to make it a more welcoming environment. IMHO that would get people playing much more than a merger or server transfers ever would. It still wouldn't get me in PvP, I'd rather eat glass, but it might help overall.

[CaptRogue]

/sigh... you attacked me first and I refuted your attack. Now you try to change the narrative and play the victim, when in fact you were the instigator..... fake news?

 

No she did not attack you. You are the one playing victim here. Anyone reading this far in can see that.

I agree with the below poster, if you aren't wanting mergers, in a hidden way, then why bother posting numbers at that time & going on with it??

If that's not what you want, then prove it & walk away. Leave this thread alone. Make a final post stating you don't want that at all. Don't respond anymore...

 

Yes SF has more RP people, but it’s certainly not dominated by them.

 

*SNIP*

 

Let me put a disclaimer here. The only reason I’ve replied is to debunk the incorrect information. I do not want mergers.

 

Oh don't even. lol SF is dominated by RP. Even if you don't engage in it, it's all OVER.

If you want RP you go to SF. Almost every guild recruitment has RP offered. I even was a member of one who wasn't RP but did an interview with you once you joined.

Not knocking it either but don't spread lies that it's not dominated by it.

 

You debunking it means NOTHING till Eric posts it. That's all just your theory & thought process on it. (Even if it's technically sound from your knowledge.)

 

I agree.

 

In addition... one server is a single point of failure if there is a problem... and we have had cases in the past where some server went belly up.. and they did not always come back up within 30 minutes either.

 

Since many players are present and invested on both US servers... if one goes belly up for any reason (and high load is historically one of the more troubling triggers for server issues) players can simply relog to the other server and do things on that server until the dead server comes back up. It may not be the server they wanted to play on at that moment, but it is infinitely better than the alternative --> the entire NA population is frozen out of game play.

 

^Yes, VERY good point. I'd rather be able to login on 2nd choice server, than not be able to play at all as this is the only game I play.

[Kiesu]

IMHO it would also help if those who are concerned about lack of population in their specific area looked inward and realized that maybe the lack of participation isn't all about others.

I'm pretty sure it's been discussed about 100 times now that it's mainly BWs fault for doing bad and inconvenient gamedesign choices that's making players leave ultimately. I dont thing anyone here has been blaming users for other users leaving... except all of you who keep blaming toxic pvpers apparently.

[robertthebard]

I'm pretty sure it's been discussed about 100 times now that it's mainly BWs fault for doing bad and inconvenient gamedesign choices that's making players leave ultimately. I dont thing anyone here has been blaming users for other users leaving... except all of you who keep blaming toxic pvpers apparently.

 

I'm going to do some time travelling here, back to the days when there were multiple PvP and PvE servers, and if there was a "we need a merge now" thread, it was because a PvP server was a ghost town. How did that happen? Why were the PvP servers ghost towns, but the PvE servers were fine-ish? Why isn't there a default PvP server now? Because an OW PvP environment wasn't sustainable, and why would that be, if it was just game design flaws? Wouldn't those flaws affect everyone equally?

 

I'll answer that second question for you: No they don't. Nerfs to classes to accommodate PvP adversely affected the PvE community. At one point, there were classes that couldn't parse the required DPS for NiM operations, let alone Master Mode. Not sure if this is still the case, but from my own experience, I can tell you that some specs became unplayable in story content, it's why I left the last time, and why, upon returning, I won't be sticking around, all so I can read all about how the servers need to be merged because PvP isn't popping enough.

 

Again, time travelling, in my last guild, we had a guy that transferred from the PvP server because he couldn't level up w/out being griefed. He then proceeded to demonstrate how to grief, so that he could swell his epeen on the PvE server. He didn't last very long in our guild, once we got wind of what he was doing. I'm not sure how you define toxic, but that wasn't exactly polite behavior, and I'll leave it at that. I'm not sure why you reject the notion of toxicity in a PvP community. As someone that's played a lot of MMOs over the last 30 years or so, I can tell you, it's not an exclusive claim for this game, it's industry wide, and doesn't even require the game being an MMO. There's toxicity in CoD, and other similar games, and I'm sure the Battle Royale style games have their fair share too. Nature of the beast.

[Kiesu]

I'm going to do some time travelling here, back to the days when there were multiple PvP and PvE servers, and if there was a "we need a merge now" thread, it was because a PvP server was a ghost town. How did that happen? Why were the PvP servers ghost towns, but the PvE servers were fine-ish? Why isn't there a default PvP server now? Because an OW PvP environment wasn't sustainable, and why would that be, if it was just game design flaws? Wouldn't those flaws affect everyone equally?

It happened the way I described in my post prior to the one you quoted. I guess you missed it.

[Seireeni]

I was able to level on Tomb of Freedon Nadd and Prophesy of the Five just fine without experiencing much griefing. It must have been some other pvp server that was impossible to level in?

 

Don't get me wrong, there were ******es who liked to kill lowbies or ungeared people. Once in ToFN I had to switch instances to get rid of one. On Pot5, I once complained about someone like that and a guildie went and murdered them for me. And really, that's how pvp servers usually dealt with griefing. You call those people out in the general chat, and someone who finds that behavior distasteful went and gave those people a taste of their own medicine.

 

I don't understand this mentality that pvp players need to take look at themselves and realize the toxicity is driving other people away. Yes, there are toxic individuals who enjoy pvp. Exactly what are we supposed to do about them? We can't ban them. We can't stop them from queueing. I regularly ignore them because I don't want to see their temper tantrums in my chat, but apparently that's not enough.

[IoNonSoEVero]

I'm pretty sure it's been discussed about 100 times now that it's mainly BWs fault for doing bad and inconvenient gamedesign choices that's making players leave ultimately. I dont thing anyone here has been blaming users for other users leaving... except all of you who keep blaming toxic pvpers apparently.

 

How is it BW's fault when people are so verbally abusive and aggressive in PvP that it turns other players off from playing? There have been post after post here about how players have been driven off PvP due to the actions and attitudes of other players.

 

IIRC one of the appeals of the Rishi PvP features was that it would allow people to PvP among friends and not the immature creeps that show up in regular PvP.

 

Continuing to blame BW for that or pretend it's not an issue is part of the problem.

 

It's also not BW's fault if people simply don't find killing other players for fun to be appealing.

Edited September 7, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[mhobin]

I'm going to do some time travelling here, back to the days when there were multiple PvP and PvE servers, and if there was a "we need a merge now" thread, it was because a PvP server was a ghost town. How did that happen? Why were the PvP servers ghost towns, but the PvE servers were fine-ish? Why isn't there a default PvP server now? Because an OW PvP environment wasn't sustainable, and why would that be, if it was just game design flaws? Wouldn't those flaws affect everyone equally?

 

I'll answer that second question for you: No they don't. Nerfs to classes to accommodate PvP adversely affected the PvE community. At one point, there were classes that couldn't parse the required DPS for NiM operations, let alone Master Mode. Not sure if this is still the case, but from my own experience, I can tell you that some specs became unplayable in story content, it's why I left the last time, and why, upon returning, I won't be sticking around, all so I can read all about how the servers need to be merged because PvP isn't popping enough.

 

Again, time travelling, in my last guild, we had a guy that transferred from the PvP server because he couldn't level up w/out being griefed. He then proceeded to demonstrate how to grief, so that he could swell his epeen on the PvE server. He didn't last very long in our guild, once we got wind of what he was doing. I'm not sure how you define toxic, but that wasn't exactly polite behavior, and I'll leave it at that. I'm not sure why you reject the notion of toxicity in a PvP community. As someone that's played a lot of MMOs over the last 30 years or so, I can tell you, it's not an exclusive claim for this game, it's industry wide, and doesn't even require the game being an MMO. There's toxicity in CoD, and other similar games, and I'm sure the Battle Royale style games have their fair share too. Nature of the beast.

 

If we time travel let’s get history right. Open world PvP died because the engine could not handle the traffic on illum, and would become a slideshow. BW removed the content because it was not sustainable.

 

Ranked 8v8 died because preseason lasted for 2 years, and was never supported. They also raised the level cap at the time, without balancing the game for 8v8. Most games were stalemates as players were now more mobile and tankier. Voidstsrs were never capped and novare coast would last every round.

 

The PvP community as a whole died around that time because we were told that cross server was not possible on the game engine. This made matchmaking impossible because it was limited to those playing on a single server (at the time there were like 20 servers). They tried changing ranked PvP to arenas but the community was basically gone at that point.

 

So if you are going to go down the history of PvP let’s get our facts straight,

Edited September 7, 2018 by mhobin

[Seireeni]

How is it BW's fault when people are so verbally abusive and aggressive in PvP that it turns other players off from playing? There have been post after post here about how players have been driven off PvP due to the actions and attitudes of other players.

 

IIRC one of the appeals of the Rishi PvP features was that it would allow people to PvP among friends and not the immature creeps that show up in regular PvP.

 

Continuing to blame BW for that or pretend it's not an issue is part of the problem.

 

It's also not BW's fault if people simply don't find killing other players for fun to be appealing.

 

Shouldn't pvp players be just as abusive and aggressive in other games, too? If yes, then it doesn't explain why there's not many pvpers in swtor while those other games do have them.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Shouldn't pvp players be just as abusive and aggressive in other games, too? If yes, then it doesn't explain why there's not many pvpers in swtor while those other games do have them.

 

SWTOR has a larger solo/story component than a lot of other MMOs. I'd wager most people don't come to this game for multiplayer, where that's the primary or sole focus of other games. People literally leave companions like Pierce unclaimed rather than doing PvP.

 

Other games might have better policing, legacy ignores, or a community that works harder to stop the toxicity. There might be more people who are emotional adults playing. But again, when the PvP community pretends that the toxicity isn't part of the problem and everything is all about BW;s shortcomings, that's not going to help you guys get more participation.

Edited September 7, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Andryah]

Shouldn't pvp players be just as abusive and aggressive in other games, too? If yes, then it doesn't explain why there's not many pvpers in swtor while those other games do have them.

 

This is not rocket science.

 

Some MMOs put more emphasis and effort on the PvP side of their MMO. Some do not. SWTOR has been, since launch, much more focused on PvE content. Given the poor success of PvP since launch in SWTOR.. I'm honestly surprised they still have PvP content in the game. And clearly... over time.. they have been streamlining the game with regards to PvP... because the population is simply not there. SWTOR PvP is focused on the player who does some of everything... not just PvP.

 

The avid PvPer (ie: the player who only PvPs and abhors PvE), with high demands for PvP as content and play style is playing the wrong MMO if they are playing SWTOR. There are better choices out there and always have been. I get it if they are really into SW lore as part of their conditions for playing.. but that is a trade-off they choose to make... and it is not incumbent on the studio to alter their directions of focus to accommodate the player who only likes to PvP when the core theme of the game is clearly story based PvE content.

 

we can of course devolve into the ever popular "chicken and egg" discussion as to why PvP is the way it is in SWTOR ... but I won't do so with you because it goes nowhere but in circles.

 

History: PvP servers generally have always had smaller populations in this MMO, have died off faster then PvP servers, causing the studio to simply do away with PvP server entirely and simply bolt on PvP instances to the existing servers and make them all vanilla flavored servers. And.. if you check the PvP instances of any server today.. you will almost always find them to be ghost towns... which means SWTOR only appeals to a narrow set of instanced PvP players and given slow queue pops... clearly players on the servers are not putting their priority on PvP activities in broad numbers.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Andryah

[Seireeni]

SWTOR has a larger solo/story component than a lot of other MMOs. I'd wager most people don't come to this game for multiplayer, where that's the primary or sole focus of other games. People literally leave companions like Pierce unclaimed rather than doing PvP.

 

Other games might have better policing, legacy ignores, or a community that works harder to stop the toxicity. There might be more people who are emotional adults playing. But again, when the PvP community pretends that the toxicity isn't part of the problem and everything is all about BW;s shortcomings, that's part of the problem.

 

The PvP community is looking the problem from another perspective. You seem to be writing from the point of view "why don't more SWTOR players play pvp?", while the pvp community comes from a different perspective: "why don't more pvp players play SWTOR?"

 

Your points are valid when we're wondering why solo players don't try pvp, but from what I've gathered, many pvp players don't pve, pvp, do story, craft, decorate and then pvp some more. Instead they pvp in SWTOR, pvp in ESO, pvp in WOW, pvp in...I have no idea, but you get the point. From the points of view of someone like that, toxicity has nothing to do with it. Every game has it, and the type of people who enjoy pvp have learned to live with it. Instead, they focus on the reasons why their friends stopped pvping in SWTOR and now pvp in another MMORPG.

 

And again, how is someone like me, who occasionally queues to pvp, supposed to work harder to stop the toxicity?

[Seireeni]

This is not rocket science.

 

Some MMOs put more emphasis and effort on the PvP side of their MMO. Some do not. SWTOR has been, since launch, much more focused on PvE content. Given the poor success of PvP since launch in SWTOR.. I'm honestly surprised they still have PvP content in the game. And clearly... over time.. they have been streamlining the game with regards to PvP... because the population is simply not there. SWTOR PvP is focused on the player who does some of everything... not just PvP.

 

The avid PvPer (ie: the player who only PvPs and abhors PvE), with high demands for PvP as content and play style is playing the wrong MMO if they are playing SWTOR. There are better choices out there and always have been. I get it if they are really into SW lore as part of their conditions for playing.. but that is a trade-off they choose to make... and it is not incumbent on the studio to alter their directions of focus to accommodate the player who only likes to PvP when the core theme of the game is clearly story based PvE content.

 

we can of course devolve into the ever popular "chicken and egg" discussion as to why PvP is the way it is in SWTOR ... but I won't do so with you because it goes nowhere but in circles.

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. While toxicity might be the reason many casuals or solo players don't find pvp appealing, the way PvP has been treated in SWTOR is the reason pvp players don't tend to stick around.

[Andryah]

Your points are valid when we're wondering why solo players don't try pvp, but from what I've gathered, many pvp players don't pve, pvp, do story, craft, decorate and then pvp some more. Instead they pvp in SWTOR, pvp in ESO, pvp in WOW, pvp in...I have no idea, but you get the point. From the points of view of someone like that, toxicity has nothing to do with it. Every game has it, and the type of people who enjoy pvp have learned to live with it. Instead, they focus on the reasons why their friends stopped pvping in SWTOR and now pvp in another MMORPG.

 

And again, how is someone like me, who occasionally queues to pvp, supposed to work harder to stop the toxicity?

 

You are largely correct in the context of players who really only want to PvP.. they follow where they think the highest energy in PvP resides in an MMO. AND.. they DO carry their toxicity with them and spread it from MMO to MMO. I don't fault them for game hopping.. because that is what they need to do to meet their needs.. and the various MMOs expect it (it's now baked into their ongoing business model) and some MMOs simply do not try hard to be at the top of the interest pole in PvP. I guess I don't fault them for the toxicity in general either ... as that is part and parcel to PvP in MMOs and has been for close to two decades now, so I simply avoid them entirely in game (I only PvP casually, with guild mates or friends, and I actually would prefer OWPvP and no instanced WZ style PvP at all). I am a DAoC veteran who loved PvP in that MMO, and I loved OWPvP in WoW but Blizzard largely wrecked that when they pushed the entire MMO genre into a focus on WZ based instanced PvP for rewards).

 

This statement to me demonstrates that you are not the problem in the context of toxicity, and you are not what I consider the avid PvPer (one who only PvPs, and gives the middle digit to every other aspect of the game). Nor are you responsible for the general toxic nature that is PvP, nor do you need to do anything to try to improve it.. which is a pointless exercise in futility anyway in my view.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Andryah

[Seireeni]

You are largely correct in the context of players who really only want to PvP.. they follow where they think the highest energy in PvP resides in an MMO. AND.. they DO carry their toxicity with them and spread it from MMO to MMO. I don't fault them for game hopping.. because that is what they need to do to meet their needs.. and the various MMOs expect it (it's now baked into their ongoing business model) and some MMOs simply do not try hard to be at the top of the interest pole in PvP. I guess I don't fault them for the toxicity in general either ... as that is part and parcel to PvP in MMOs and has been for close to two decades now, so I simply avoid them entirely in game (I only PvP casually, with guild mates or friends, and I actually would prefer OWPvP and no instanced WZ style PvP at all). I am a DAoC veteran who loved PvP in that MMO, and I loved OWPvP in WoW but Blizzard largely wrecked that when they pushed the entire MMO genre into a focus on WZ based instanced PvP for rewards).

 

This statement to me demonstrates that you are not the problem in the context of toxicity, and you are not what I consider the avid PvPer (one who only PvPs, and gives the middle digit to every other aspect of the game). Nor are you responsible for the general toxic nature that is PvP, nor do you need to do anything to try to improve it.. which is a pointless exercise in futility anyway in my view.

 

I don't think I'm responsible for the environment of pvp -- but I don't think anyone else who queues and behaves themselves is, either. That's why I don't understand why the pvp community needs to be constantly called out on not doing enough to the toxicity in that game mode. It's not the fault of the people who just happen to enjoy that game mode, why are they responsible for it?

 

I've been participating in the playtest sessions in PTS, and I'd guess I'm mostly playing with people you'd describe as "avid PvPer" there. No one, I repeat, no one has been aggressive or abusive towards me, not even when I make some stupid mistake. This alone tells me it's not everyone who's good at pvp that's aggressive towards their teammates, and if I don't need to do anything to improve the nature of pvp, as you call it, why would those fine folks need to do something about it either? And even if they wanted to do something about it, what are they supposed to do?

 

Anyway, yeah, I don't think I'm an avid pvper either -- my main focus is leveling a large amount of alts through the story, I just enjoy lowbie/midbie while I'm at it and been getting back to doing endgame pvp lately. ^^'

[Andryah]

I don't think I'm responsible for the environment of pvp -- but I don't think anyone else who queues and behaves themselves is, either. That's why I don't understand why the pvp community needs to be constantly called out on not doing enough to the toxicity in that game mode. It's not the fault of the people who just happen to enjoy that game mode, why are they responsible for it?

 

No disagreement from me on this.

 

What about those that queue for PvP and DO NOT behave themselves..and in some cases go out of their way to make life miserable for their team mates as well as opponents???? These are the folks that fuel the ongoing meme about PvPers being toxic to an MMO in things like forum discussions, in game chat.. etc.

 

I don't hold PvPers who do behave themselves responsible for any of this.. unless they continue to queue and stand around silently and let a minority of toxic players effectively ruin a PvP match for the rest of the players. I do feel all players in the encounter have a responsibility to push back, and maybe even agree to boot this sort of PvPer. Since I don't random queue for PvP though.. I don't come across much toxicity in PvP to be honest.. but I do trust the feedback from other players who do experience it, and do suffer in game play enjoyment due to it.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Andryah

[Seireeni]

No disagreement from me on this.

 

What about those that queue for PvP and DO NOT behave themselves..and in some cases go out of their way to make life miserable for their team mates as well as opponents???? These are the folks that fuel the ongoing meme about PvPers being toxic to an MMO in things like forum discussions, in game chat.. etc.

 

I don't hold PvPers who do behave themselves responsible for any of this.. unless they continue to queue and stand around silently and let a minority of toxic players effectively ruin a PvP match for the rest of the players. Since I don't random queue for PvP though.. I don't come across much toxicity in PvP to be honest.. but I do trust the feedback from other players who do experience it, and do suffer in game play enjoyment due to it.

 

Well, those people naturally are responsible for their own behavior, but I doubt any amount of convincing would make them change their ways. You can post about them on the forums, you can argue with them in the chat, but it's likely they would just enjoy the arguments and then return to being what they are.

 

What are the pvp players supposed to do, but queue and stand around silently? That's what I do -- I have the jerk in ignore after second or third message, so I don't even see it. You can start arguing with them in chat, but that just means the chat is even more littered with shouting and arguing. Not to mention that sort of people seem to often be happy with negative attention too, as long as they get their attention, so everyone just ignoring them might be the most effective way to get rid of them.