Does anyone think the cartel market is killing this game?

[Decxswx]

5400CC for a lightsaber, "lootboxes", up to 600CC to unlock items for all characters.

 

What do you guys think of this? I personally think prices should be reduced and include cartel market drops for endgame to encourage more people to stay and for endgame content?You know that light vs dark event that happened in 2016? it should've been a legacy feature or give rewards to dedicated players that bought a lot of cc or sub time.

 

Cosmetics are part of the experience of a game, but if they are locked behind a MASSIVE paywall then it can be equally as unsustainable as a p2w game. I have no issue with cosmetics behind a paywall but if its too high or not available for direct purchase then it becomes a problem. F2P players(newcomers) can be payers but not if they can see the greed of game.

[fishpeople]

I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Talking to a few friends recently, there isn't much on the cartel market they want.

[Kiesu]

Since they can't make sub model attractive enough (or more like, cant keep the f2p players onboard long enough to sub due to the overly restricted f2p model) I'm not surprised they try to rely so heavily on cosmetic stuff to sell.

 

Even if I'm not subbing for an MMO myself but I like playing it every now and then I drop some coins to cosmetics as a personal contribution to the game.

 

But yeah SWTOR CM market is super expensive compared to other game shops and I'm really not a huge fan on it. Plus for some reason you can sell the CM stuff on auction house, which easily turns to inflation issues in most games.

[DarthCasus]

5400CC for a lightsaber, "lootboxes", up to 600CC to unlock items for all characters.

 

What do you guys think of this? I personally think prices should be reduced and include cartel market drops for endgame to encourage more people to stay and for endgame content?You know that light vs dark event that happened in 2016? it should've been a legacy feature or give rewards to dedicated players that bought a lot of cc or sub time.

 

Cosmetics are part of the experience of a game, but if they are locked behind a MASSIVE paywall then it can be equally as unsustainable as a p2w game. I have no issue with cosmetics behind a paywall but if its too high or not available for direct purchase then it becomes a problem. F2P players(newcomers) can be payers but not if they can see the greed of game.

 

But see, you've taken the outliers for your initial point. How many people do you honestly think are buying the 5100CC items or even managing to get platinum grade items to pay an extra 600CC for collections? I guarantee you, not many. If people have the money to spend on a vanity item, I say go for it but I wouldn't take it as anything beyond BW providing an alternative route to putting items on the market vs Crates/Packs. Not only is it much more beneficial to newer players who otherwise would have to grind to ridiculous levels to get enough credits to purchase embargo'd packs, it also helps older players get in on it.

 

Cosmetics are only worth whatever you're willing to pay for them. If a cosmetic is "locked" off behind an immense "paywall" its up to you to decide if its worth it or not. Almost all are available for credits, which you can grind out or play with the markets if you're really salivating over that 1 thing. I have just about every top tier cosmetic, rarely purchase anything with my CC besides appearance changers and boosts and don't raid/craft. Heroics, dailies, trading up from semi-eh items to top tier and selling them. You find a way and F2P players shouldn't really expect to pop in, grind to 50 and be decked out in the latest or most rare cosmetics just because.

 

There's plenty of other things worth paying for over an overpriced laser stick.

[Eksenia]

Expensive prices for fluff items can in no way kill the game.

It’s just that, fluff. Besides if you don’t want to spend rl money you can grind up creds like everybody else and buy it on GTN.

It’s a fair system. Some have more rl cash than credits and don’t mind spending some to sell the fluff on gtn, and for some it’s the other way around.

 

Things that could potentially kill the game is lack of things that make subscription less in demand, such as no new content, et cetera.

But I have an immensely hard time fathoming how a CM price slash would beef the player base up.

 

Make your argument for lower CM prices. But make it proper — nobody’s going to listen if the argument is poor, like maintaining that the game is dying because of CM prices.

[SourOrange]

In its own way, yes. At the most base and unbiased level, it only serves to suck developer attention (or at least the money used to buy the correct developer attention) away from other things that might actually serve long term benefit to the game. Bug fixes, new gameplay-related rewards, actually finishing new content on time and in full- to name just a few.

 

But that's not to say all of this is the cartel market's fault in and of itself. EA mishandled the game from the very beginning and continues to do so by throttling resources instead of putting in a few more to fix what's gone awry. SWTOR is not a bad game, by all means. It is, however, an unsuccessful MMORPG. I know some will want to argue that, but given the past, and where we are now, I think that point should be fairly self evident. There's nothing wrong with being honest about it. It got to this point simply by virtue of hitting just about every major pitfall that any other MMORPG developer worth their salt would warn against. Things like the cartel market are part of the problem, but not the catalyst.

 

I doubt EA has any interest in trying to turn it around now--if we know anything based on the track record, they're probably prepared to keep it running on as little as possible and continue maximizing profit via the cartel market--but if they did, I feel like the following would be a change that would benefit the game overall in the long run.

 

a.) Discontinue all cartel market packs, offer the rare sets/dyes/mounts/emotes/etc for direct sale and disperse all others as earnable rewarda via gameplay. World bosses, flashpoints, ops and maybe some quests for example.

 

b.) Either overhaul or discontinue the free to play program. Give subscribers bonuses and extra QOL perks, rather than removing baseline aspects of gameplay like storage for F2P.

 

c.) Focus on expanding the game and implementing gameplay that offers replay value or directly player-related content. A music system like LOTRO's, more decorations for strongholds, more playable races, minigames like pazaak and such. Expand existing worlds, offer more unique things to discover, add lore related dialogue trees to NPCs, etc. Flesh out the world. Fill it with things to do and look at so that no area seems useless or just a highway to another area.

 

d.) Actually deliver consistent content. Even if it's just a few new quests, a few new hairstyles, a new flashpoint, etc. Just continue adding to the game on a timetable people can rely on. Once every few months for example. Give people something to look forward to.

 

If EA was willing to invest a bit and acrually had the desire to see SWTOR succeed, I have no doubt that it would. But at this point, I don't think it'd be wise to shoot my hopes too high.

Edited July 28, 2018 by SourOrange

[drug_cartel]

Is the Cartel Market hurting the game? No. The Cartel Market is pretty much sustaining the game, since so few people subscribe. What the original poster proposes, awarding Cartel Market items as endgame drops, would pretty much be a deathnell for the game, because the last items that people are paying for would suddenly become free.

 

A better question: how do we improve the Cartel Market system? What stops me (or you) from spending money in the Cartel Market?

 

First off is the 95% gamble approach. I am not afraid to spend money in the Cartel Market; I've spent quite a bit in fact. But I rarely buy the Packs. When the game was younger, I could buy a hypercrate and sell the contents to make credits. It was a lucrative market. Now, if I open a full hypercrate, I will get MAYBE one item that actually sells at any significant amount. And that's only a maybe. Almost everything that gets unlocked is going to be stuff that I don't really care about, and nobody else is really interested in either. Yet the packs are incredibly expensive, so that means I'm not going to waste my Cartel Coins on them just to get junk I don't want. These days, I pretty much exclusively buy things that are up for direct sale. So, for me at least, I would spend more money if more items were available for direct sale. I spent a ton when there was the "almost everything" sale (and would have spent a lot more if that "almost everything" sale had included a few key items that I wanted to buy.

 

Second deterant is the weird social items and recovery items. I HATE anything that involves permanently losing an inventory slot in order to gain what amounts to essentially an emote or animation. Forget that. Those items need to be consumeables that are then selectable from the abilities menu. No more paying money for inventory clutter.

 

Third obstacle is dyes. If you're not going to put all the dyes up for direct sale, then you need to include an option to unlock them in collections. I've got Medium Pink dyes that haven't been available in ANY way in years, and if I socket them into an item, they're gone forever. There's no way to research them, no way to craft them, no way to buy more. The idea of many color combinations being unavailable because those packs are out of circulation is just nonsense. Seriously, when players primary financial support comes from cosmetics, the dyes system should be as openly available as possible. (In fact, I still thoroughly support Primary and Secondary slot dyes being separate sockets, so that combinations like Medium Red/Medium Red, or Dark Brown/Dark Brown can actually exist.)

 

Last obstacle for me in spending money is just a lack of stuff to buy. Not only is 90% of what's available stuck inside gamble packs, 90% of what actually exists is flatly unavailable because of the constant retiring of packs. When I want to buy something, the answer is almost always "Well, you can't." Even if I bought a million dollars worth of packs, what I want is just not available in them most of the time. Instead, the only way to get those items is a bloated credits cost on the GTN (if they're even available there). In order to cosmetic my characters, it's nigh impossible to do it with Cartel Coins; it has to be done with credits. Which makes many players simply give up. We just can't cosmetic every character and multiple companions. We're stuck, and eventually we accept that.

 

If they want to get our money for those Cartel Coins, they actually have to sell stuff. The newest pack can contain random new items to force people to buy the gamble packs, but when the next pack comes out, the contents of the old pack need to be added to the store for direct purchase, and they need to stay there FOREVER. That one change would cause players like me to instantly spend a ton more Cartel Coins.

[Eksenia]

@SourOrange —-But that argument is directed against the existence of the CM (and the devloper focus directed to it), not the prices — which is what the OP claims is killing the game.

 

Whether that Kylo Ren saber that the kids want is priced at 5000 or 2500 is not a factor in whether the game is being murdered or not.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Eksenia

[xordevoreaux]

5400CC for a lightsaber, "lootboxes", up to 600CC to unlock items for all characters.

 

What do you guys think of this? I personally think prices should be reduced and include cartel market drops for endgame to encourage more people to stay and for endgame content?You know that light vs dark event that happened in 2016? it should've been a legacy feature or give rewards to dedicated players that bought a lot of cc or sub time.

 

Cosmetics are part of the experience of a game, but if they are locked behind a MASSIVE paywall then it can be equally as unsustainable as a p2w game. I have no issue with cosmetics behind a paywall but if its too high or not available for direct purchase then it becomes a problem. F2P players(newcomers) can be payers but not if they can see the greed of game.

 

In a FTP/Microtransaction model, cartel market (microtransaction) purchases are necessary to fund the game. Subscriptions help, but Bioware hasn't exposed to the public the percentage of microtransactions versus percentage of subscriptions as part of overall game revenue.

[Jdast]

OP, I understand you are talking about prices primarily, but that seems to be an ongoing experiment. In the last two months, for example, we have seen them put up virtually every item for about a 2-3 week period, to what they have begun this week, which is offer one particular item at a heavily discounted rate, but only for one day.

 

My guess is the actual pricing will continue to evolve and fluctuate per market demands.

 

I'm agnostic on your idea about having certain cartel market items drop end game to encourage people to play. It would be case-by-case for me.

 

To the overall naysers of the CM itself, however -- I say -- "Hug a Whale. We are keeping this ship afloat for as long as possible."

 

Put bluntly: Absent the Cartel Market -- this game would have shuttered completely several years ago. I'm too lazy to find it (it's 6 a.m. on the West Coast of the USA and I'm on my first cup of coffee), but I remember one developer quipping a couple years ago something to the effect of (i.e., I'm paraphrasing), "yeah, right, let's get rid of a system that brings in millions of dollars a year."

 

Dasty

Edited July 28, 2018 by Jdast

[Karameck]

But yeah SWTOR CM market is super expensive compared to other game shops and I'm really not a huge fan on it. Plus for some reason you can sell the CM stuff on auction house, which easily turns to inflation issues in most games.

Honestly, compared to FFXIV the prices seem about the same.

 

And unless you're selling in game currency directly I don't see how it leads to inflation. It's introducing items not obtainable in game, and overall due to the tax associated with the GTN it actually serves to counter inflation and take it out of the system.

[DarthWoad]

The lack of updates and time between them is killing this game

[Eksenia]

Honestly, compared to FFXIV the prices seem about the same.

 

And unless you're selling in game currency directly I don't see how it leads to inflation. It's introducing items not obtainable in game, and overall due to the tax associated with the GTN it actually serves to counter inflation and take it out of the system.

 

Precisely.

 

Inflation comes only from money (credits, gold, whatever it is called in game) generated in game, when generation is larger than sink (repairs, vendor costs, GTN tax).

In MMOs, inflation tends to build up over time as people amass big fortunes which, due to no upkeep costs like housing, utilities, taxes, gas prices, etc., are not removed or relocated within the economy.

 

Cartel Market does not affect this at all — if anything they can, as quoted poster mentions, fight inflation through GTN tac, or relocate credit heaps.

[StormForceDax]

In a word no. As for the cost of any individual item, well if BW did not sell any the cost would be lower. So there you go.

[Eksenia]

In a word no. As for the cost of any individual item, well if BW did not sell any the cost would be lower. So there you go.

 

Are you commenting on the inflation?

If so, that’s about as woke as dividing by zero.

 

If an item does not exist, you can not measure inflation by it.

 

Inflation would still be there, apparent in the extreme with other hard/impossible to get items like the old Oricon planetary gear or the Crate-o-matic.

 

I’m not against lowering CM prices if the revenue is the same for BW — it’s in my interest to ensure the longevity of this game because I like playing it.

However this would not alter inflation because a) the relation between CC and credits is not linear and b) player wealth in credits would not be altered, which is what drives inflation.

 

Regardless, CM prices are not in the slightest what is ”killing this game” as OP claims.

[xordevoreaux]

Regardless, CM prices are not in the slightest what is ”killing this game” as OP claims.

Agreed.

[Damask_Rose]

In free to play games, it is the leviathans & whales who provide the lion's share of revenue. Even though there are a lot more dolphins than whales, the amount they spend is significantly less. To keep those leviathans spending, there have to be big ticket items to buy. Does that price the little dolphins like me out of the big ticket items? Absolutely, but then I'm not their target for those. I make due with the lower priced items, sale items & the GTN. There are a lot of lower priced items on the CM. There are also unlock sales twice a year, so cheap people like me can save up and unlock things for half off.

 

The CM has been restructured recently. Currently all new items are placed for direct sale as well as dropping from Ultimate packs. Older items rotate in and out of the store. There is only one pack, and ALL cartel items can drop in that crate. There are good and bad things about this system. The drop rate for any one item is very low, so the resale price on new items is about 2-3 times what new items used to sell for on the GTN. Of course this encourages more direct purchases. On the flip side, the resale prices on most older items have gone way down. For me, one of the big problems right now is the extremely low drop rates for new decorations which aren't on the CM.

 

Cartel items are also always available through Grand Chance Cubes. You can get those in game as a rare drop from command crates and from the reward for doing the "Intro to Conquest" quest.

 

The Cartel Market reputations are being streamlined into one rep track now which will drop from the Ultimate pack. Cartel Certificates will drop from those as well, hopefully at the same rate as they did before. This will give newer players access to those vendors and certificates. I am hoping they will freshen up the vendors with some new offerings! This will give a lot of value added to packs, which I think suffered from the shift to direct sales.

[StormForceDax]

Are you commenting on the inflation?

If so, that’s about as woke as dividing by zero.

 

If an item does not exist, you can not measure inflation by it.

 

Inflation would still be there, apparent in the extreme with other hard/impossible to get items like the old Oricon planetary gear or the Crate-o-matic.

 

I’m not against lowering CM prices if the revenue is the same for BW — it’s in my interest to ensure the longevity of this game because I like playing it.

However this would not alter inflation because a) the relation between CC and credits is not linear and b) player wealth in credits would not be altered, which is what drives inflation.

 

Regardless, CM prices are not in the slightest what is ”killing this game” as OP claims.

 

No the thread is " Does anyone think the cartel market is killing the game" No was my answer.

As others including the OP has mentioned individual cost of certain items. Well if BW did not sell any such items, then the price would have been lowered. As such inflation is not relevant when talking about CM killing the game. At the end of the day its cosmetic and none of it is needed to play the game. While the unlocks are nice and useful you can play without. Buy or don't buy, CM is not killing the game. However you can always spend wisely and take advantage of when items are on sale, which of course includes when collections are at half price. It would be nice if BW advertised better when collections are on sale, but they do go on sale.

Edited July 28, 2018 by StormForceDax

[Andryah]

5400CC for a lightsaber, "lootboxes", up to 600CC to unlock items for all characters.

 

What do you guys think of this? I personally think prices should be reduced and include cartel market drops for endgame to encourage more people to stay and for endgame content?You know that light vs dark event that happened in 2016? it should've been a legacy feature or give rewards to dedicated players that bought a lot of cc or sub time.

 

Cosmetics are part of the experience of a game, but if they are locked behind a MASSIVE paywall then it can be equally as unsustainable as a p2w game. I have no issue with cosmetics behind a paywall but if its too high or not available for direct purchase then it becomes a problem. F2P players(newcomers) can be payers but not if they can see the greed of game.

 

For some players.. there are a number of things that are "killing the game" from their own personal perspective. However, the CM is NOT one of them in any objective sense.... simply because nothing forces you to buy from the CM, nor are CM items BoP or otherwise restricted in an manner that requires you to spend CCs to acquire them. Contrary to your claim... there is NO paywall at play here....just your lack of imagination or desire to work the system in game to obtain everything you may want or crave.

 

I have a copy of nearly every super rare platinum item ever released in the CM (released either via direct sale or as items in a crate). I have NEVER paid CCs for them... period. I save my CCs from my ongoing subscription for unlocks (which I generally only do when they have a 50% off sale which happens a couple times a year) as well as paying for things that can only be purchased using CCs (like appearance changes).

 

So... work the system as I and many others do, and stop complaining. There are always players willing to part with items they bought from the CM by listing them for sale on the GTN. And credits are easy to come by for any player with a plan for wealth accumulation to meet their in game buying wants/needs and other expenses.

 

Basically, if you have expensive tastes (which clearly you do)..... asking for a welfare path is not appropriate in the context of an MMO. Create a personal wealth accumulation plan (in credits) and work the plan... then shop on the GTNs. If you cannot be bothered to do so.. why on earth would you expect the studio to be bothered to put these items in game as random end game drops? They drop much more readily from the GTN. If you find this idea unreasonable.. then hawk your referral link, get people to subscribe to play the game and reap CCs for free.... and then spend them accordingly. If you can't be bothered with this either... then you are where you are and that is on you.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Andryah

[LeMage]

I don't think its killing the game. So your light-saber is prettier than mine, they both work the same given the same mods. I was a user of the cash sink until I converted coins to cash. It was like **** 30$ for these pixels?? And only one? Not one for everyone of my toons? and that's where the $ stopped fleeing my wallet indiscriminately.

 

Somethings I will buy if it helps my look or immersion and to sometimes thumb my nose at the Gods of Random. They usually thumb back.

 

I used to think 25$ for a mount in WoW was pricey - even Blizzard had a sale now and then 50% off. A real 50% off not like the fake sale prices on many of these items here for sale. (I've bought the 25$ & 12.50$ ones)

 

But EA seems content to sell 2 light sabers at 5000 coins than 200 at 500, and its not like there's any added material used.

Edited July 30, 2018 by LeMage

[Tenacity]

Free to play killed the game, it's just in its death throws and being poked at by the cartel market stick.

 

I will never agree to microtransaction business models. They are greedy, scheming, and an underhanded way of funding your product. There is not a single game which uses microtransactions that hasnt tried to exploit their customers with them.

 

I will gladly pay 15$ a month for a multiplayer game that receives consistent updates. Subscription models are fine. Bioware, however, gave up on subscription for this microtransaction junk (probably at the behest of EA, the lords of gambling online), and then when they realized that they werent making enough money anymore they removed half of the base game features for anyone that wasnt a subscriber, to force subscriptions again. After that, they realized that they could even charge the subscribers for additional features and content via microtransactions, and the prices of those items on the cartel market have steadily climbed ever since.

 

What's worse is that bioware/EA have taken things much further than other games in their streak of greed. Most games that use a cash store/microtransactions as well as a subscription/f2p model will give you your full subscription worth of store credit each month. For example, ESO is 15$ a month and gives you 15$ worth of crown store coins every time they charge you. SWTOR, on the other hand, is 15$ a month and only gives you 5$ worth of cartel coins every time they charge you.

 

Everything about this game was designed to bleed your wallet dry, and you can thank almighty EA for that.

[Jdast]

Free to play killed the game, it's just in its death throws and being poked at by the cartel market stick.

 

I will never agree to microtransaction business models. They are greedy, scheming, and an underhanded way of funding your product. There is not a single game which uses microtransactions that hasnt tried to exploit their customers with them.

 

I will gladly pay 15$ a month for a multiplayer game that receives consistent updates. Subscription models are fine. Bioware, however, gave up on subscription for this microtransaction junk (probably at the behest of EA, the lords of gambling online), and then when they realized that they werent making enough money anymore they removed half of the base game features for anyone that wasnt a subscriber, to force subscriptions again. After that, they realized that they could even charge the subscribers for additional features and content via microtransactions, and the prices of those items on the cartel market have steadily climbed ever since.

 

What's worse is that bioware/EA have taken things much further than other games in their streak of greed. Most games that use a cash store/microtransactions as well as a subscription/f2p model will give you your full subscription worth of store credit each month. For example, ESO is 15$ a month and gives you 15$ worth of crown store coins every time they charge you. SWTOR, on the other hand, is 15$ a month and only gives you 5$ worth of cartel coins every time they charge you.

 

Everything about this game was designed to bleed your wallet dry, and you can thank almighty EA for that.

 

Um, Free to Play was introduced years ago, and here we are. My wallet is thick -- and it subsidizes you. You should thank me.

 

No offense but.../epicfail

 

Dasty

 

P.S. I play ESO as well. My anecdotal experience is that people pay the $15 month for the crafting bag. All of the cosmetic items in ESO cost about the same amount.

 

/more epicfail

Edited July 28, 2018 by Jdast

[SourOrange]

Free to play killed the game, it's just in its death throws and being poked at by the cartel market stick.

 

I will never agree to microtransaction business models. They are greedy, scheming, and an underhanded way of funding your product. There is not a single game which uses microtransactions that hasnt tried to exploit their customers with them.

 

I will gladly pay 15$ a month for a multiplayer game that receives consistent updates. Subscription models are fine. Bioware, however, gave up on subscription for this microtransaction junk (probably at the behest of EA, the lords of gambling online), and then when they realized that they werent making enough money anymore they removed half of the base game features for anyone that wasnt a subscriber, to force subscriptions again. After that, they realized that they could even charge the subscribers for additional features and content via microtransactions, and the prices of those items on the cartel market have steadily climbed ever since.

 

What's worse is that bioware/EA have taken things much further than other games in their streak of greed. Most games that use a cash store/microtransactions as well as a subscription/f2p model will give you your full subscription worth of store credit each month. For example, ESO is 15$ a month and gives you 15$ worth of crown store coins every time they charge you. SWTOR, on the other hand, is 15$ a month and only gives you 5$ worth of cartel coins every time they charge you.

 

Everything about this game was designed to bleed your wallet dry, and you can thank almighty EA for that.

 

Agreed. The F2P model and subsequent blatant cash grabs via the cartel market are both really unhealthy for the long term benefit of the game and its players. Maybe the cartel market is enough of a band aid to keep the game running, but for what? It's not going anywhere. It's underfunded and understaffed, sees close to no content updates and currently only serves the greed of EA, rather than being treated with the respect it deserves.

 

SWTOR has had so much wasted potential, and the cartel market just seems like the culmination of mishandling.

Edited July 28, 2018 by SourOrange

[Dweessies]

Without the cash flow generated by the CM, EA would have shuttered this game years ago. It's annoying AF sometimes, but without it there would be no game. It's an unfortunate necessity until BW is given enough resources to make a game worthy enough that subscription revenue would support it.

 

And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for EA to make that kind of investment.

[annabethchase]

Cartel market saved this game. Without that income stream it would have died in 1 year.