gamephil Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I'd use her on my Knight first, I always liked the Knight story the most. I picked Consular because of my first play through and the whiplash nearly killed me and because it's the counselor of TOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I picked Consular because of my first play through and the whiplash nearly killed me and because it's the counselor of TOR. whiplash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 whiplash? Going from "Don't worry I'll help regardless of what you've done" to "Do your people know about your weakness?" was just too much of a change in direction. I may have felt better about the expansions if I'd played someone else. Probably not, since I would have most likely gone through with an Agent or an Inquisitor, since those were the other classes I had ready for it and both of whom would have also had a problem with this nonsense.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 Going from "Don't worry I'll help regardless of what you've done" to "Do your people know about your weakness?" was just too much of a change in direction. I may have felt better about the expansions if I'd played someone else. Probably not, since I would have most likely gone through with an Agent or an Inquisitor, since those were the other classes I had ready for it and both of whom would have also had a problem with this nonsense.. Holding back on kotet too? I can't say I want to see my characters going through kotet claiming one thing while in fact doing the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 (edited) Holding back on kotet too? I can't say I want to see my characters going through kotet claiming one thing while in fact doing the opposite. Yeah, though I still have the odd issue that causes the game to freeze up within 15 minutes, so it's not really an option, anyway. But even before that, I was mainly going through the vanilla stories. Hutt Cartel gets a lot of disdain, but I enjoy it these days far more than the latest expansions. Edited July 3, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 (edited) TL'DR: I'd take a companion as a sign of good faith, and would be willing to pay for the privilege of having her. Ultimately, having a Vaylin companion is not exactly what I want. All I really want is some small sign that the devs even understand what a badly thought out and even harmful story hers was.There were lots of problems with the story as a whole, and with how aspects of it were handled. Lots of missed opportunities, but it was a very ambitious concept that ultimately failed. Or not, quite a few people liked it. But Vaylin? As it stands, between being yet another mentally ill character that gets punished for being mentally ill (and, yes, dangerous), breaks and becomes a monster, then gets more of the same from our characters with or without our consent, she is the strongest sign I've seen of a sort of gross insensitivity to these issues, at least from Bioware. It's not as if this is new. Zhorrid is basically the proto-Vaylin, and her story didn't have a better ending (either you kill her, or her story just goes nowhere). We're never allowed to even try with Eclipse Squad. And in the Big Boom Run, the dangerously mentally ill scientist and his wife are played for laughs. But I've never seen the crew be slapping themselves on the back so much as they did with Vaylin's story, and, for that matter, the entire story here that's full of abusive imagery where the "hero" listens the the gaslighting gasbag rather than trying to dump him into a star, though they do occasionally talk a good game about doing so. They just never act on it. I have to wonder: since they knew where the story was going, did they not give us the ability to try just to avoid having to make us fail? That would be less grotesque, honestly. There was a time when the company would actually visibly take into account such complaints, recognize that they'd done something wrong, and take steps to correct course. Now, it really feels like they are being dismissive. I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Considering how much hate these expansions get, maybe they just want to dump it and move on (which makes the Arcann romance thing a bit odd). Maybe they do understand but aren't allowed to comment, that happens sometimes. I'd like a better story, some small continuation. I'd prefer it to end with her being alive, but there are other ways to make up for this awful thing they made. But that would require effort that even I recognize should probably go to other things, considering the hatred of what they have given us so far. Barring that, I'd just like some kind of statement acknowledging that there were problems with her story at all, and that would cost nothing except maybe a bit of a hit to the ego. Since that doesn't seem likely, either, a companion, which certainly looks to my outsider's eyes like they are so close to having, would be great. It allows me to pretend she got a different story, plus allows me to pretend she was really the powerhouse she was presented as by surviving, and most importantly, allows me to assume that the devs get it. And I'm willing to pay them for it. Really, there is no better sign that her story fails than the fact that I've seen more than once people claiming that Valkorion was right to do what he did, or even that he was, somehow, a good father. And they continue to go along with this nonsense with giant statues to him and giving us the option to dress like the creep. His victims should get better than him The holostatue doesn't really cut it, not anymore. Edited July 3, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 TL'DR: I'd take a companion as a sign of good faith, and would be willing to pay for the privilege of having her. Ultimately, having a Vaylin companion is not exactly what I want. All I really want is some small sign that the devs even understand what a badly thought out and even harmful story hers was.There were lots of problems with the story as a whole, and with how aspects of it were handled. Lots of missed opportunities, but it was a very ambitious concept that ultimately failed. Or not, quite a few people liked it. But Vaylin? As it stands, between being yet another mentally ill character that gets punished for being mentally ill (and, yes, dangerous), breaks and becomes a monster, then gets more of the same from our characters with or without our consent, she is the strongest sign I've seen of a sort of gross insensitivity to these issues, at least from Bioware. It's not as if this is new. Zhorrid is basically the proto-Vaylin, and her story didn't have a better ending (either you kill her, or her story just goes nowhere). We're never allowed to even try with Eclipse Squad. And in the Big Boom Run, the dangerously mentally ill scientist and his wife are played for laughs. But I've never seen the crew be slapping themselves on the back so much as they did with Vaylin's story, and, for that matter, the entire story here that's full of abusive imagery where the "hero" listens the the gaslighting gasbag rather than trying to dump him into a star, though they do occasionally talk a good game about doing so. They just never act on it. I have to wonder: since they knew where the story was going, did they not give us the ability to try just to avoid having to make us fail? That would be less grotesque, honestly. There was a time when the company would actually visibly take into account such complaints, recognize that they'd done something wrong, and take steps to correct course. Now, it really feels like they are being dismissive. I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Considering how much hate these expansions get, maybe they just want to dump it and move on (which makes the Arcann romance thing a bit odd). Maybe they do understand but aren't allowed to comment, that happens sometimes. I'd like a better story, some small continuation. I'd prefer it to end with her being alive, but there are other ways to make up for this awful thing they made. But that would require effort that even I recognize should probably go to other things, considering the hatred of what they have given us so far. Barring that, I'd just like some kind of statement acknowledging that there were problems with her story at all, and that would cost nothing except maybe a bit of a hit to the ego. Since that doesn't seem likely, either, a companion, which certainly looks to my outsider's eyes like they are so close to having, would be great. It allows me to pretend she got a different story, plus allows me to pretend she was really the powerhouse she was presented as by surviving, and most importantly, allows me to assume that the devs get it. And I'm willing to pay them for it. Really, there is no better sign that her story fails than the fact that I've seen more than once people claiming that Valkorion was right to do what he did, or even that he was, somehow, a good father. And they continue to go along with this nonsense with giant statues to him and giving us the option to dress like the creep. His victims should get better than him The holostatue doesn't really cut it, not anymore. Not the ideal choice, but at this point, if they don't want to continue it - ditto. Take my money! Don't make me smite you, Brother Phil! I'm unaware if the devs have ever brought up kotet in the past via livestream or whatever, but yeah, Vaylin's story had a lot of weird decisions in it, kotet in general had a lot of questionable decisions made by our characters on the suggestion from Valkorion. I don't think it was intended, if anything kotet still strikes me as a plot that was not thought out or rather it was rushed to get us back to this imp vs pub plot ... in which several of the characters were turned into cucks. I don't remember some of these, I'll have to go watch YT and edit this part later. They praised themselves on the story back then? All I recall is the endless hatred towards the CXP grind which caused enough people to unsubscribe causing EA or Bioware to send out an email asking for feedback in under 40 characters. Again, it could be it was just because any feedback regarding the story was drowned out by the pure hatred for the introduction for the CXP grind and they only recently became aware of people liking Vaylin's character. I'm not sure but weren't the reasons something to do with he monthly chapter releases and the story not focusing on the PC? and I think there was something about group content? Arcann, I don't get. He wants redemption, and it appears we're going to dive nose first into another conflict ... I'm not sure how he'll get redemption from the rest of the galaxy by helping X murder Y ... I wouldn't be surprised if someone from our allied faction decides to take a shot at Arcann now that we've lost the Gravestone and the fleet. Give me a two minute cutscene! I'm fine if she never makes an appearance after that! A purchasable Alliance Alert? To me it feels like one bad idea after the next with the way this traitor arc has been delivered. For example ... it's full of plot holes ... the only character to walk away from that 'intact' was Vinn and his quest to end the Alliance. Theron & Lana have a super chat that only they can use? Why not leave her a message from the start? Why not just leave a note on a piece of paper? How can Gemini 16 'see everything' except whenever Theron sent his msg to Lana? What was the point of Vinn sending Theron to Umbara? What did the Order of Zildrog need with those crystals?(Going to stop here, I'll be moaning endlessly on this one) Agreed, there's no greater power than ones own imagination. Take my money! Heh, I won't comment on this part because I'll get an infraction point. No idea on the statues ... weren't they rewards from one event or another? A Vaylin one would be nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 I don't think it was intended, if anything kotet still strikes me as a plot that was not thought out or rather it was rushed to get us back to this imp vs pub plot ... in which several of the characters were turned into cucks. Absolutely what I think happened, too. I just still think they should do something now to make it a bit better before moving on. The reaction to the whole thing was just very intense, at least in the areas they watch, I don't blame them for running away. They praised themselves on the story back then? All I recall is the endless hatred towards the CXP grind which caused enough people to unsubscribe causing EA or Bioware to send out an email asking for feedback in under 40 characters. I'm mainly talking about after the fact, and honestly, it's more of an impression for the most part than anything they specifically said. It's just a bunch of little things that cause me misgivings that I'd be happy to eat crow about if they'd throw us any little thing. Like this. I'm not sure but weren't the reasons something to do with he monthly chapter releases and the story not focusing on the PC? and I think there was something about group content? All kinds of things were being complained about, I just view it as a baby and the bathwater type of deal. Arcann, I don't get. He wants redemption, and it appears we're going to dive nose first into another conflict ... I'm not sure how he'll get redemption from the rest of the galaxy by helping X murder Y ... I wouldn't be surprised if someone from our allied faction decides to take a shot at Arcann now that we've lost the Gravestone and the fleet. Well, he never said he wouldn't fight, he's just going to be fighting for a better cause. If a player is working with a wholly DS commander that wouldn't give Arcann the redemption he seeks, that's really on the player: should have killed Senya and Arcann to have that storyline. Although, I would have liked to have seen a DS Arcann companion for them, anyway. No idea on the statues ... weren't they rewards from one event or another? A Vaylin one would be nice I thought Valkorion's statue was just for being subscribed. I know I have it (although the only use I've made for it is a gag where my Vaylin holostatues are standing around it and blast it to rubble with lightning (thrown by my actual character out of sight in the screenshot). And I didn't seek it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IoNonSoEVero Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 I agree that the Vaylin storyline was handled incorrectly, and that the way a mentally ill abuse victim was vilified and given zero closure was troubling. As is Bioware's writing and denigration of mental illness at several other parts in the SWTOR universe (even with microaggressions such as repeatedly using the term 'crazy' as a pejorative). The Arcann story was also handled incorrectly, IMHO, as the "light side" option is to embrace a war criminal who subjugated the entire galaxy, with absolutely no punishment doled out whatsoever, or even an option to toss him in jail or carbonite indefinitely...all on the premise that "everyone can be forgiven." Mommy says he's really a good boy, you agree, and suddenly he's redeemed and nobody in the Alliance (except Lana) speaks up or has a problem with welcoming the man they were fighting against. It is a classic case of flipping the narrative so the viewer has more sympathy for a perpetrator than their victims. It would have been far more realistic for half your Alliance to leave in protest and for at least one of them to take a shot at him. But IMHO it's folly to think Bioware is ever going to recognize or acknowledge the folly of these characters' arcs, any more than they have ever acknowledged some of the more problematic aspects of the class stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 Sorry - was watching the England game ... penalties are so stressful Response in red. Short responses - sorry ... I'm knackered. Absolutely what I think happened, too. I just still think they should do something now to make it a bit better before moving on. The reaction to the whole thing was just very intense, at least in the areas they watch, I don't blame them for running away. Agreed - might serve as some incentive to get some people back too. I'm mainly talking about after the fact, and honestly, it's more of an impression for the most part than anything they specifically said. It's just a bunch of little things that cause me misgivings that I'd be happy to eat crow about if they'd throw us any little thing. Like this. Aye ... Take my money!!!! All kinds of things were being complained about, I just view it as a baby and the bathwater type of deal. There was so much going back and forth at that time, I don't recall any feedback regarding the story at the time ... though granted I ignored most of it. Well, he never said he wouldn't fight, he's just going to be fighting for a better cause. If a player is working with a wholly DS commander that wouldn't give Arcann the redemption he seeks, that's really on the player: should have killed Senya and Arcann to have that storyline. Although, I would have liked to have seen a DS Arcann companion for them, anyway. My playthrough was on a dark side that redemmed Arcann and sided with the Empire on Iokath ... the way the story has been presented in my opinion, I think Arcann could be an issue for my sith. I thought Valkorion's statue was just for being subscribed. I know I have it (although the only use I've made for it is a gag where my Vaylin holostatues are standing around it and blast it to rubble with lightning (thrown by my actual character out of sight in the screenshot). And I didn't seek it out. I've got it too, wasn't it from last years winter event? along with several wall pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Sorry - was watching the England game ... penalties are so stressful Response in red. Short responses - sorry ... I'm knackered. The statue was part of the 6th Anniversary awards: Valkorion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 4, 2018 Author Share Posted July 4, 2018 The statue was part of the 6th Anniversary awards: Valkorion Maybe Vaylin will be the seventh then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) Maybe Vaylin will be the seventh then? Even that seems unlikely. That would be two years between what they did and releasing it, two years since a story that they are satisfied with along with the majority of the audience. It should have been done already if they were going to. Something they actually get money from might have a chance, but something like using her in an anniversary celebration for free two years after her "told and done", awful little story? No. Edited July 5, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 Even that seems unlikely. That would be two years between what they did and releasing it, two years since a story that they are satisfied with along with the majority of the audience. It should have been done already if they were going to. Something they actually get money from might have a chance, but something like using her in an anniversary celebration for free two years after her "told and done", awful little story? No. Make it a cartel purchase then. I'd buy a Vaylin statue to replace the Valkorion statues. Regardless ... my wallet is still waiting! Gimme gimme companion please!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 Sister Via has created a perfect piece of art in the name of the lord, Zildrog. Take My Money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelindis Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) Sister Via has created a perfect piece of art in the name of the lord, Zildrog. Take My Money! Companion kill token? What a strange idea. We're all free to refrain from using companions we don't like, and to headcanon that we killed them (if ye feel like doing that sort of thing). If you want a death to have official story status, 1k CC is honestly a bit cheap for a bunch of exclusive cutscenes (1 per unkillable companion) created for a sliver of the playerbase. Besides, if BW keeps some unkillable so those companions can be essential scaffolding for story, they're not going to create a CM item that borks their own story. Of course I appreciate that's not the part of the picture you're drawing our attention to right now, but as you have also asked to make more characters killable it seems compatible with your general array of requests... Edited July 9, 2018 by Estelindis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 Companion kill token? What a strange idea. We're all free to refrain from using companions we don't like, and to headcanon that we killed them (if ye feel like doing that sort of thing). If you want a death to have official story status, 1k CC is honestly a bit cheap for a bunch of exclusive cutscenes (1 per unkillable companion) created for a sliver of the playerbase. Besides, if BW keeps some unkillable so those companions can be essential scaffolding for story, they're not going to create a CM item that borks their own story. Of course I appreciate that's not the part of the picture you're drawing our attention to right now, but as you have also asked to make more characters killable it seems compatible with your general array of requests... Heh, it's just a joke. I was going to edit Lana's face over it ... but didn't get around to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) I think that they could put a clone seller in the area on the base of each faction similar to the ones for roots and beasts where they can have you pick up your new companions. That would cover everything. I'd still like the characters, including the Empress, to be voiced, unlike most or all of the CM companions, but it's a good delivery system, I think. I think a few people would like to be able to run around with a number of NPC's, it's come up before. I'll just pretend mine is not a clone. I'm good with that. The basic idea came from Paul. Edited July 9, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnusheart Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Id rather have a cool male force user that dual wields. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) I think that they could put a clone seller in the area on the base of each faction similar to the ones for roots and beasts where they can have you pick up your new companions. That would cover everything. I'd still like the characters, including the Empress, to be voiced, unlike most or all of the CM companions, but it's a good delivery system, I think. I think a few people would like to be able to run around with a number of NPC's, it's come up before. I'll just pretend mine is not a clone. I'm good with that. The basic idea came from Paul. How are the droids / pets sold? I know they use to come in the packs now they cycle through the cartel market? Are they done on a similar ranking system as the other items? (Silver, Gold, Platinum?) Id rather have a cool male force user that dual wields. . Cartel - Valss ? Chiss dude from the flashpoint? Edited July 9, 2018 by Paulsutherland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 How are the droids / pets sold? I know they use to come in the packs now they cycle through the cartel market? Are they done on a similar ranking system as the other items? (Silver, Gold, Platinum?) They come through the Cartel market by whatever means, and you get a device in your inventory that you can use to activate the quest to acquire them. The quest comes with a teleport to get you to the NPC that provides them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 They come through the Cartel market by whatever means, and you get a device in your inventory that you can use to activate the quest to acquire them. The quest comes with a teleport to get you to the NPC that provides them. Heh, so a cloner or something or the sorts could be lurking in the cartel area waiting to collect our CC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Heh, so a cloner or something or the sorts could be lurking in the cartel area waiting to collect our CC? I think it should be the image of the Mother Machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 I think it should be the image of the Mother Machine. Rakata tech? Throw your token or CC to the machine, then either get the companion you seek? You should put this idea in the suggestion box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Rakata tech? Throw your token or CC to the machine, then either get the companion you seek? You should put this idea in the suggestion box I thought this was the suggestion box. Shows how much attention I'm paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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