Why did BW not make the early chapter companions same-sex romanceable?

[SithtobeJedi]

I thought it was out right stated that Lana and Koth had something, if one doesn't date one of them.

 

It heavily implies anyways, making them bi.

 

Theron would be the player sexual one.

 

They definitely did.

 

Lana will sub to whatever the Outlander wants to do, but she'll always have a moment of "No, don't do that.." in her eyes. Even if the game says she 'approves' she always has a moment where she looks like she wants to stop you.

 

But when it comes to Koth, if you kill him, he makes a point to tell Lana 'goodbye' and she looks very sad by it, regardless of what she said to him prior. It's clear they both had something, or the beginnings of something before she fell for the Outlander into full commitment. So Lana would very much be bi.

 

Tora I'm not so sure about, I just know I want to romance her lol

[BellumEstBellum]

As far as I know it was becuase of certain stipulations between Disney and Lucas. I highly doubt that Bioware will ever go back and change those characters (it would be too big of a cost for very little gain). And I don't think they need to change the old companions, they have added in Lana and Theron, who have both been quite popular, and I think that it is better to add in a couple new charterers and expand the story, and romances, than to go over old ground.

[Antonfourteen]

Kaliyo was romantically involved with Ona whom is a female. But she ran away, as she always did.

 

Nothing implies she was "romantically involved", that's your interpretation. It says on the wiki:

 

'Ona was once daughter of a Senator, she was seduced to leave Coruscant to live a life of adventure among the galaxy's criminal elements by Kaliyo Djannis. However her father didn't freeze her accounts, he believed his daughter was kidnapped. Kaliyo then left Ona on the planet Ylesia, she cried for a month when Kaliyo Djannis left her.'

 

Keyword is seduced. You can seduce somebody without being physically attracted to them, it can be done for manipulative or beneficial gains. Like a lesbian woman could seduce a straight man but does that actually make that woman attracted to men?

 

And the actual quote from her on KOTFE when a fem flirts with her is: 'I'm too old for head games. and that's all I'm good for with women'.

[SteveTheCynic]

Would "playersexual" be an appropriate definition for a player who's straight in real life but somehow gay ( or bi) in game?

Not as I've defined the term, no.

[SteveTheCynic]

Keyword is seduced. You can seduce somebody without being physically attracted to them, it can be done for manipulative or beneficial gains. Like a lesbian woman could seduce a straight man but does that actually make that woman attracted to men?

It's quite reasonable to read that word "seduced" in the quoted text in a figurative sense, in the same way as we might say that Anakin was seduced by the Dark Side, rather than in a literalistic sexual sense.

 

But you're right about the question of actual physical/sexual seduction not implying attraction or "orientation compatibility".

[SteveTheCynic]

But when it comes to Koth, if you kill him, he makes a point to tell Lana 'goodbye' and she looks very sad by it, regardless of what she said to him prior. It's clear they both had something, or the beginnings of something before she fell for the Outlander into full commitment. So Lana would very much be bi.

I chose to let him live at that point, and (spoilerbox):

 

He declines the offer to rejoin the Alliance, saying that too much trust has been broken.

 

He also asks you how you feel about Lana. My character who was in this position had romanced Lana, and she said that Lana is everything to her. Koth then asks you to take care of her and goes on his way.

 

[SteveTheCynic]

If Lana, Theron and Koth are playersexual it's in the form of the *only* person they ever express interest in is the PC. Not them being gay/straight but as in literally ONLY being sexually interested in the player character. That said this is true for a lot of SWTOR's LI's. Quinn shows no interest in anyone other than the female SW, Corso for the femSmug but no one would call them playersexual. I'm tired of playersexual being used to sling shade at any bi LI that doesn't scream from the treetops that they're bisexual but a straight LI that does the same thing is just fine.

 

What you're talking about is something like with Anders where he literally does not mention his relationship with another man if you play female protagonist.

No. You have completely misunderstood what I said. I said that a "playersexual" NPC (companion, in particular, but could be an ordinary NPC like SoR Lana/Theron) is one who will respond positively to the player's romantic advances whether the player character is male or female.

 

Quinn is not playersexual. He is a straight man, and male characters can't flirt with him. Same for Corso.

 

On the other side, Kira is not playersexual. She is a straight woman.

 

Kaliyo is an interesting case. I see why people might say she's fully bi-, but I'm not convinced by it. I think it's more likely (taking into account her reactions to a female non-Agent in Chapter X) that while she might go to bed with a woman (presumably to "keep her sweet"), it's not because she's in any way attracted to them. And, of course, no female Agent can even flirt with her.

 

Lana, Theron, and Koth are playersexual. They will respond to, and become romantically involved with, the player, whether the player is male or female. (There's a separate debate about whether their relationship prior to Chapter III makes whichever one it is of Lana and Koth bisexual. It's clear that there's something there between them, but it's not clear from the playthroughs I've done and the dialogue choices I've made whether it's more than just Koth pining for Lana.)

[Raynezazki]

No. You have completely misunderstood what I said. I said that a "playersexual" NPC (companion, in particular, but could be an ordinary NPC like SoR Lana/Theron) is one who will respond positively to the player's romantic advances whether the player character is male or female.

 

Quinn is not playersexual. He is a straight man, and male characters can't flirt with him. Same for Corso.

 

On the other side, Kira is not playersexual. She is a straight woman.

 

Kaliyo is an interesting case. I see why people might say she's fully bi-, but I'm not convinced by it. I think it's more likely (taking into account her reactions to a female non-Agent in Chapter X) that while she might go to bed with a woman (presumably to "keep her sweet"), it's not because she's in any way attracted to them. And, of course, no female Agent can even flirt with her.

 

Lana, Theron, and Koth are playersexual. They will respond to, and become romantically involved with, the player, whether the player is male or female. (There's a separate debate about whether their relationship prior to Chapter III makes whichever one it is of Lana and Koth bisexual. It's clear that there's something there between them, but it's not clear from the playthroughs I've done and the dialogue choices I've made whether it's more than just Koth pining for Lana.)

 

That's not what playersexual means though. They're bisexual and of course they respond positively to both gender characters. They're bi. You're confusing a bi Li with a playersexual one.

 

I'm so tired of this insistence that bi characters have to be flamboyant with their sexuality where's straight characters can do whatever and it's fine. Quinn's straight but the only female he hits on is the protagonist. Why doesn't he count as playersexual? Probably because it's only a term to try to negate bi LIs that don't fit into the pigeonhole of everything that moves with a horde of both gender lovers. There is nothing in game that contradicts Lana, Theron and Koth being bisexual. They not hitting on s/s NPCs that aren't the protagonist isn't a contradiction. It merely means the PC is the only s/s person they find attractive the same is the case for the o/s but that's not a problem apparently given other straight Lis (Well for Theron anyway). If they rejected a s/s person with "I'm not into X gender." and then were all in the s/s PC's grill *that* would be a contradiction and make them playersexual.

 

Also I'm so tired of people using playersexual in general. There's very few characters that actually fit it and 9/10 it feels like a way to whine about bi LIs while trying and failing to be subtle about it. Granted I don't think you're doing that here but Lana, Theron and Koth not having a bunch of lovers in the background makes perfect sense given the situations the PC meets them in. There's plenty of other LIs that do not talk about their past lovers to the PC because it's not relevant but they don't get pigeonholed into playersexual.

 

As for Kaliyo I'm pretty sure she's bi but with a relationship lean towards men.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Raynezazki

[SteveTheCynic]

That's not what playersexual means though. They're bisexual and of course they respond positively to both gender characters. They're bi. You're confusing a bi Li with a playersexual one.

Where is the evidence that Theron is bisexual, regardless of the player's sex? Do we see him flirting with *anyone* other than the player?

 

And you can't call a person "bi" simply because, when presented with an opposite sex character, that person accepts a hetero relationship, and when presented, in a different instance of the story, that person accepts an SSR. That person is hetero in one case, and SS in the other.

 

The player in SWTOR can easily be bi, going back and forth (you can cross the line three times - female class companion => SoR Theron => KotFE Lana / returned class companion => post-KotET Arcann), but Lana (debatable because of Koth), Koth (debatable because of Lana), and Theron are simply "player-compatible"(1).

 

There is no evidence either for or against a hypothesis that Theron has even *had* any other relationships except with the player, much less those relationships being SSR or hetero, so there is no reason to assign "bi" to him, no matter what the player relationship is.

 

Yes, I am aware that Koth and Lana have a history, although the "depth" of that history is not clear to me. It's also clear that Lana is carrying a honking big torch for the player, no matter what her feelings for Koth are.

 

And you need to read more carefully what I said. I said nothing about flamboyance, showing off, campness or any of that, just that some people go both ways, some play on their own side of the divide, and some play on the opposite side.(2)

 

(1) Since you've decided to take up "definition games" - you're the only person so far in any of these discussions who has disputed my definition of "playersexual" - I've decided to change my terminology, just for you. And yes, "player-compatible" does not exclude "bi", but it doesn't *imply* "bi" either.

 

(2) I'm also well aware that "bi" does not imply "flamboyantly exhibitionist about it", and I wasn't aware of trying to imply that.(3) The only person I know who I know has played both ways is not like that at all. I knew her in London, and she was apparently and unremarkably straight. When I met up with her again some years later, after both of us had (independently) moved to France, it turned out that, for reasons that aren't important here, she had ended up in a lesbian relationship. She didn't make a big deal out of it, and although it was evident that the transition had, for her, been unexpected, she seems happy with it, so I don't make a big deal about it.

 

(3) That's coded language for "how the lleh did you extract that implication from what I said?".

[Raynezazki]

Where is the evidence that Theron is bisexual, regardless of the player's sex? Do we see him flirting with *anyone* other than the player?

 

And you can't call a person "bi" simply because, when presented with an opposite sex character, that person accepts a hetero relationship, and when presented, in a different instance of the story, that person accepts an SSR. That person is hetero in one case, and SS in the other.

 

The player in SWTOR can easily be bi, going back and forth (you can cross the line three times - female class companion => SoR Theron => KotFE Lana / returned class companion => post-KotET Arcann), but Lana (debatable because of Koth), Koth (debatable because of Lana), and Theron are simply "player-compatible"(1).

 

There is no evidence either for or against a hypothesis that Theron has even *had* any other relationships except with the player, much less those relationships being SSR or hetero, so there is no reason to assign "bi" to him, no matter what the player relationship is.

 

Yes, I am aware that Koth and Lana have a history, although the "depth" of that history is not clear to me. It's also clear that Lana is carrying a honking big torch for the player, no matter what her feelings for Koth are.

 

And you need to read more carefully what I said. I said nothing about flamboyance, showing off, campness or any of that, just that some people go both ways, some play on their own side of the divide, and some play on the opposite side.(2)

 

(1) Since you've decided to take up "definition games" - you're the only person so far in any of these discussions who has disputed my definition of "playersexual" - I've decided to change my terminology, just for you. And yes, "player-compatible" does not exclude "bi", but it doesn't *imply* "bi" either.

 

(2) I'm also well aware that "bi" does not imply "flamboyantly exhibitionist about it", and I wasn't aware of trying to imply that.(3) The only person I know who I know has played both ways is not like that at all. I knew her in London, and she was apparently and unremarkably straight. When I met up with her again some years later, after both of us had (independently) moved to France, it turned out that, for reasons that aren't important here, she had ended up in a lesbian relationship. She didn't make a big deal out of it, and although it was evident that the transition had, for her, been unexpected, she seems happy with it, so I don't make a big deal about it.

 

(3) That's coded language for "how the lleh did you extract that implication from what I said?".

 

Where's the evidence that Quinn's straight other than him romancing the player (in game I mean let's not use outside material)?

 

Uh...do you think just because someone's married to a woman at the moment that means they must be straight? Cause that's not how it works. That's not ever how it worked. Theron isn't changing to gay because he's with a male protagonist he's a bi man in a relationship with another man.

 

Also using your logic my Knight is gay because he's never actually had a relationship with a woman despite being attracted to them because he ended up with Theron. That's absurd.

 

That's my point. You're trying to claim someone's playersexual because there's not a convenient "oh here's my X" scene or a "I find X and Y" attractive scene. When I said flamboyant I'm referring to the usual convenient "Oh here's all my exes that are a mix of genders." or the "let me hit on half the cast." that bi LIs usually do in BioWare games because if they don't you get whining about playersexuality or how they're straight but BW "forced" them to be an option for s/s characters. Because bi characters have to make "sense".

 

Your definition of playersexual is accepted because for the most part people don't spend as much time arguing the use of that terminology as I have.

 

Except you are quick to point out they *can't* be bi because there's no evidence of them having both sorts of relationships which is a burden you do not place on straight LIs like Quinn. It's another need for bi Lis to justify their bisexuality meanwhile straight Lis can do whatever and it's an aggravating double standard. Theron, Lana and Koth have little to no reason to bring up exes to the protagonist and for the most part are in circumstances that a relationship with someone that's not the player wouldn't really come up or be relevant. If they were straight only options it wouldn't even be a blip in the radar but since they're bisexual they must be playersexual?

Edited June 5, 2018 by Raynezazki

[OldVengeance]

I really don't know why people are so quick to embrace bi-erasure. Frankly, I think the idea of playersexual characters is just absurd to begin with. It's like suggesting Theron doesn't even have a real sexuality of his own. Bisexual people don't become gay or straight even if they only date one person in their life.

 

The very fact that Theron accepts a relationship with either gender should be evidence that he is bisexual. There is no reason to conclude he is also not attracted to the opposite gender of his current husband or wife.

Edited June 5, 2018 by OldVengeance

[Raynezazki]

I really don't know why people are so quick to embrace bi-erasure. Frankly, I think the idea of playersexual characters is just absurd to begin with. It's like suggesting Theron doesn't even have a real sexuality of his own. Bisexual people don't become gay or straight even if they only date one person in their life.

 

The very fact that Theron accepts a relationship with either gender should be evidence that he is bisexual. There is no reason to conclude he is also not attracted to the opposite gender of his current husband or wife.

 

BioWare does have playersexual characters but they're nowhere near as many as people like to pretend. There's only 2 standouts I can recall off the top of my head being Anders and Sky. And yeah the need to pigeonhole every bi LI that doesn't fit the as subtle as a pink elephant trope as playersexual is so annoying.

 

It should but people will insist to the end of the earth that he's not.

[OldVengeance]

I don't think Anders is playersexual either. Just because he doesn't specifically mention his relationship with Karl to women doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen for female Champions.

[Raynezazki]

I don't think Anders is playersexual either. Just because he doesn't specifically mention his relationship with Karl to women doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen for female Champions.

 

Yeah but it doesn't feel very sensible for him to leave it out otherwise. It really feels like his attraction to men is erased if you're a fem protag. I mean it could still work but it makes him secretive and cagey for little reason. (While granted secretive and cagey are Anders thing a reason to explain his hatred of mages on a personal level to the protagonist doesn't seem like something he'd pass up).

Edited June 5, 2018 by Raynezazki

[OldVengeance]

I thought I remember reading somewhere that it wasn't included because his writer figured that he wouldn't want to mention it to a girl he was interested in because he figured it's something she might not want to hear about.

 

Also, now that I think about it, doesn't he always mention having slept with Isabela back in Ferelden, at some point.

Edited June 5, 2018 by OldVengeance

[Raynezazki]

I thought I remember reading somewhere that it wasn't included because his writer figured that he wouldn't want to mention it to a girl he was interested in because he figured it's something she might not want to hear about.

 

Also, now that I think about it, doesn't he always mention having slept with Isabela back in Ferelden, at some point.

 

I don't buy it because in the DA setting homophobia isn't widespread in most places that's not Tevinter. Fereldan especially seems rather laid back about it and in the mage tower has "everyone kissing everyone". Feels like a really bad justification for something they shouldn't have removed in the first place. And yeah he mentions sleeping with women regardless of the PC's gender which makes his omission of Karl even more glaring.

 

And thankfully BW learned from that and it hasn't happened again.

 

Plus the thought of Anders using his dead boyfriend as a means to test the waters with MHawke is pretty skeevy.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Raynezazki

[OldVengeance]

 

Doesn't the fact that he mentions sleeping with women regardless of the PC's gender prove he isn't playersexual? Anders sometimes comes off as a bit of a creep regardless, in my opinion.

Edited June 5, 2018 by OldVengeance

[Raynezazki]

 

Doesn't the fact that he mentions sleeping with women regardless of the PC's gender prove he isn't playersexual? Anders sometimes comes off as a bit of a creep regardless, in my opinion.

 

Yeah it's part of the continuing gag of Isabela and returning characters having slept together And Anders looks particularly weird because he has no issue talking about his past encounters with women but the only way to get his past encounters with a man (Karl) is to play a male Hawke which makes him feel like he's straight *unless* you play Male Hawke in which case he's bi. If Karl was brought up regardless for both genders I'd see him as bisexual rather than playersexual.

 

He would if not for the unmention of Karl for a fem protag. As it is he's bi if you're male and straight if you're female which is just awkward.

 

He's definitely a creepo though. Just gotta watch his rivalrymance for that yikes.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Raynezazki

[OldVengeance]

I still don't really see that as a good reason to consider him playersexual. Maybe Anders would be wrong to omit his relationship with Karl to a women he's interested in, but it would hardly be his only mistake or his only weird personality hangup.

 

According to the devs, Anders isn't even really his name.

[Raynezazki]

I still don't really see that as a good reason to consider him playersexual. Maybe Anders would be wrong to omit his relationship with Karl to a women he's interested in, but it would hardly be his only mistake or his only weird personality hangup.

 

According to the devs, Anders isn't even really his name.

 

True but for me at least it feels more like something the devs did than the player would. Given Karl's importance to him and the fact that he and the PC just met when it occurs doesn't really make much sense for him to hide it because of romantic interest in the PC.

 

Oh yeah it isn't. Anders being a liar isn't unexpected but lying about Karl feels super forced to me.

[OldVengeance]

It doesn't feel that forced to me, especially of all the other times he is less than forthcoming. Plus, I don't agree with the idea that just because we learn something in one play through and not others, it doesn't apply to all of them. That's the same argument people use to claim that any other characters (like Theron, Lana and Koth) are playersexual. Edited June 6, 2018 by OldVengeance

[Raynezazki]

It doesn't feel that forced to me, especially of all the other times he is less than forthcoming. Plus, I don't agree with the idea that just because we learn something in one play through and not others, it doesn't apply to all of them. That's the same argument people use to claim that any other characters (like Theron, Lana and Koth) are playersexual.

 

Yeah for me it's just a blatant omission that's not consistent. The Karl thing was just really poorly done and the devs admitted that they wouldn't do it again if they had the chance to redo it making me think they realize it was a stupid thing to do.

 

I wouldn't say so because for me Anders actually contradicts himself. Anders has no shame in letting people know who he slept with in awakening and this is a trait that passes on to DA2. For him to suddenly try to hide himself for a femHawke (and only femHawke he doesn't hide his female lovers from MHawke) doesn't jive at all to me. Especially given for FemHawke's romance half his dialogue consists of him telling him how awful he'll be for her. Theron/Lana/Koth don't contradict themselves by romancing both gender Outlanders like Anders does by friendzoning Karl if you're a femprotag.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Raynezazki

[OldVengeance]

It's been a while since I've played Dragon Age 2 now, but I don't think Karl and Anders were still together at the time Anders tried to rescue him from the templars.

[Raynezazki]

It's been a while since I've played Dragon Age 2 now, but I don't think Karl and Anders were still together at the time Anders tried to rescue him from the templars.

 

They weren't but his relationship with Karl definitely influenced how much Anders hates the templars and why he's so desperate to free mages.

 

That and I always got the impression that their relationship hadn't ended that long ago.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Raynezazki

[kirorx]

They said they would at some point in the blurry past . Then they said 'They want to do it right ! Aka : Make same-sex companions that have the potentiel for it not every companions . I remember there was a talk like Kaliyo could be one ' . Turn out , in the end..like everything else is just vague promises that led nowhere and nowdays they have yet another exuse of 'Don't have the crew , don't have the money...we really want to! But can't' .

 

Honestly , don't think they want to . They just lie like for everything else to keep peoples around .

 

There were larges topics about this . Nowdays they are buried somewhere . Peoples hoped and hoped and..look at today . We still got nothing .

 

Kaylio would be ideal, she is much better than the bug boy.