Outrageous Respec Cost

[Zakaan]

Protip: If you don't respec for a full week, the cost resets back to 0.

 

That's disgusting.

[-Arcane-]

Respec cost resets each week.

 

 

However I agree that it does rise too high too fast.

[Garnet]

Once the game is balanced around dual spec and other assorted easy mode functions it will force players like myself to follow suit or suffer.

 

Driz

 

Why will you suffer?

 

Spell out to me exactly how a game can be balanced around dual spec to the detriment of archaic robots like yourself.

 

I've honestly had enough of this argument. It keeps coming up both here and in the add-ons division. Do you honestly believe that I'll be able to achieve anything without constant respeccing and having all kinds of add-ons, once the game is balanced with them in mind?

 

Please, just stop.

 

Add-ons are a separate argument.

 

How will your game experience suffer because other people can have two specs?

Edited January 4, 2012 by Garnet

[ImperialSun]

Why will you suffer?

 

Spell out to me exactly how a game can be balanced around dual spec to the detriment of archaic robots like yourself.

 

 

 

Add-ons are a separate argument.

 

How will your game experience suffer because other people can have two specs?

 

I pick a class and learn it.

 

How can I therefore compete with someone who has a top end dps spec and within a few seconds is now facing me with a top end tank and within a few seconds is now a top end healer?

 

I would have to use dual speccing myself in order to ensure a level playing field.

 

Driz

[spicycookie]

Unless Tracer Missile is nerfed, I will continue to run my Full Arsenal Spec in PVP. I'm doing just fine. I can't say I am a serious PVPer, but I was Warlord in the other game which i can't mention because saying the name will get me a warning. I already have 77 warnings for different reasons from the board moderators lol.

 

Anyway I pvp a lot, it is an edge for some, but you are probably right, I'm not a serious pvper. I just play this game for fun.

 

I use to be serious in video games, but it created a lot of stress and became a job so i told myself never to do that again.

 

 

Maybe not to you, but in competitve PvP that can make or break a game easily

 

Also, some classes like BH have totally different trees for PvE and PvP. Firebug is our utility and PvP tree, while Arsenal is pure damage. You certainly wouldn't want to be running the same spec in both PvE and PvP if you wanted to play seriously.

[Truga]

How will your game experience suffer because other people can have two specs?

 

Okay, I hate to do this, but I'm going to bring WoW into this discussion. I have a friend, that played wow for years, and he once told me this story:

 

Soon after dual spec was introduced, raiders were forced to use both their specs for raiding. One for tank/heal and one for dps, because some encounters required more tanks, some required more heals and some required more DPS. In the same dungeon.

 

And that's just one example of this.

[Paganwishes]

And we have a winner...

 

THIS is how your dual / tri spec and constant respeccing will affect the gameplay of others.

 

Once the game is balanced around dual spec and other assorted easy mode functions it will force players like myself to follow suit or suffer. Why should my game experience be cheapened by easy mode gameplay that wasnt designed for the game, just because the "I want it all" crowd demand it?

 

So that same old "How does it affect your gameplay" arguement is fail.

 

Driz

 

You honestly think ppl will respecc 20 times in order to find the best spec for PvP/PVE?

Most idiots with half a brain can theorycraft with a talent calculator and nail it in the first or second attempt.

So the whole "Mass respeccing will destroy the game with cookie-cutter builds" that's just stupid, sorry but it is. I want dualspec so I can be the best I can be in both PvP and PvE, why should I be prohibited?

 

I think you just revealed your self as one of those RPing-vanity pet-hunters by this statement.

[Matte_Black]

How will your game experience suffer because other people can have two specs?

 

Because the two specs that will be swapped between will be optimized ones on the extremes. If the game scales to those extreme builds, it moves away from being balnaced to and validating all the builds in the middle designed to cover wide ranges of roles. Eventually, you have to be an optimized extreme to be viable in the game and alot of potentially interesting builds and powers go largely unused the variety of builds out there in used become alot less varied.

[Maltuvion]

I find it absolutely hilarious that the primary argument of the "pro-obscene-respecc-cost" crowd is that "you're not supposed to respecc". As 1990-kid said, all it will breed is cookie-cutter speccs, i.e. people doing the "optimal PvE dps specc Jedi Sage lvl 50" google search and picking the one most universally supported. It kills creativity. It kills flexibility. It kills diversity.

 

And really, why is it exactly that "you're" (that being everyone) are not encouraged to be creative? Your own? Intent on finding enjoyment in what you do? Why is it that a lobotomized minority of the MMO-player segment advocates strict adherence to ONE single specc after some very brief initial experimentation (and God forbid even that)? I used to raid high-end for 5 years on a feral druid and I stuck loyally to my class; had there been no respeccs I'd never have sunk even a fraction of the money nor time I did into WoW.

 

There is no valid argument against dual-specc. There is no valid argument against a, say, 15k credits cap on respecc, if Bioware is hellbent intent on living in the last decade. Hell, what saddens me most is that alot of people want to enjoy the full spectrum of their class and this wonderful game, yet are prohibited from doing it due limitations of time and being forced to spend said time grinding money, which few people, if any, find enjoyable. That is the true tragedy of this.

 

Oh, and it further inhibits TOR's already extremely unhealthy economy even more, and further widens the discrepancy between the "Slicer millionaires" (of which I am one) and "the poor working class hobos", which is the crowd many of my friends unfortunately belong to.

[Garnet]

Okay, I hate to do this, but I'm going to bring WoW into this discussion. I have a friend, that played wow for years, and he once told me this story:

 

Soon after dual spec was introduced, raiders were forced to use both their specs for raiding. One for tank/heal and one for dps, because some encounters required more tanks, some required more heals and some required more DPS. In the same dungeon.

 

And that's just one example of this.

 

I'm sorry but that simply isn't true.

 

Maybe some guilds did this, but it certainly wasn't common. You don't get anywhere by forcing people to play specs they don't want to. I was in a competitive guild and no-one was forced or required to spec in any way when dual-spec came in. This isn't a valid point at all. Sometimes people who DPS'd would also off-tank for some bosses where it was useful, but only if they wanted to - if not, we would swap in someone who could tank and DPS would /roll to see who would sit out for one fight. No big deal.

 

Because the two specs that will be swapped between will be optimized ones on the extremes. If the game scales to those extreme builds, it moves away from being balnaced to and validating all the builds in the middle designed to cover wide ranges of roles. Eventually, you have to be an optimized extreme to be viable in the game and alot of potentially interesting builds and powers go largely unused the variety of builds out there in used become alot less varied.

 

That's not true because you're talking about an issue that has NOTHING to do with dual-spec.

 

Extremely optimised builds are the result of competitive PvE/PvP. Everyone wants to be the best, so of course only the strongest builds are used.

 

Sucks if you want to play in a top guild with your oddball spec, but it has nothing to do with dual-speccing at all.

 

So again, how are you guys disadvantaged?

[Matte_Black]

You honestly think ppl will respecc 20 times in order to find the best spec for PvP/PVE?

Most idiots with half a brain can theorycraft with a talent calculator and nail it in the first or second attempt.

So the whole "Mass respeccing will destroy the game with cookie-cutter builds" that's just stupid, sorry but it is. I want dualspec so I can be the best I can be in both PvP and PvE, why should I be prohibited?

 

I think you just revealed your self as one of those RPing-vanity pet-hunters by this statement.

 

Dual speccing encourages optimaztion at the extremes of the spectrum. Generally speaking, that is where game balance and rules systems will break down. By hindering the ability to play two builds, it encourages balanced builds that can tend to stay near the middle of the spectrum where the game balance and mechanics operate best.

 

Just because something makes your gameplay easy and convenient and you want it really bad, does not mean it is good for the game as a whole.

[EvanSnowWolf]

I find it absolutely hilarious that the primary argument of the "pro-obscene-respecc-cost" crowd is that "you're not supposed to respecc". As 1990-kid said, all it will breed is cookie-cutter speccs, i.e. people doing the "optimal PvE dps specc Jedi Sage lvl 50" google search and picking the one most universally supported. It kills creativity. It kills flexibility. It kills diversity. .

 

Explain to my how this absurd slippery slope argument even works. This game does not stop respecs. It doesn't even discourage them. THEY PUT THE GUY TO DO IT RIGHT THERE. The issue here is not respeccing, it is a matter of how badsqueak insane you get with it. A full flat out reduction of costs to ZERO in one week. ONE STINKING WEEK.

 

If this is killing you, then you either have atrocious ADHD or you want Dual Spec, which is fine. But don't act like not being able to completely reshuffle your points six times a day is some crime against humanity.

[Maltuvion]

Because the two specs that will be swapped between will be optimized ones on the extremes. If the game scales to those extreme builds, it moves away from being balnaced to and validating all the builds in the middle designed to cover wide ranges of roles. Eventually, you have to be an optimized extreme to be viable in the game and alot of potentially interesting builds and powers go largely unused the variety of builds out there in used become alot less varied.

 

Except currently the game doesn't at all validate all builds; those seeking optimization already float between 2, max 3 speccs that are proven optimal. If I PvP as a Jedi Guardian my tank-specc can work to some extent, but I'd be far, far more deadly and useful as Focus specc, dishing out 7k AoE blasts, chain-snaring targets and having superior movement. And yes, this would be superior if I was on defensive duty as well.

 

Currently the game leans even more towards extreme builds than if there was absolutely zero respecc cost; now people take the theoretically most optimal specc because they don't want to sink their hard-earned creds into an arbitrary money-sink.

 

And really.... those people who worry about their specc will always seek the most optimal, because such thing always exists. Sure you can roll as a 25 Sawbones Scoundrel rather than 31 as a healer in a PvE environment, but why would you? If you did that, you were pretty much not giving a jack about your performance. That's fine, too; as long as I don't have to play with such blatant disregard for people pulling their weight.

 

As I said, the extremes already exist in the environment you describe. The few who does not adhere to optimization are also the ones who couldn't care less about this. Of course a "trickle-down" effect might come where newbies actually start to take the most optimal specc, but then again... that is a fallacy on Bioware's talent trees, not the playerbase. 'Coz why'd you want to encourage incompetency? Why does anyone want to be subpar? I don't get the interesting part.

[Paganwishes]

Okay, I hate to do this, but I'm going to bring WoW into this discussion. I have a friend, that played wow for years, and he once told me this story:

 

Soon after dual spec was introduced, raiders were forced to use both their specs for raiding. One for tank/heal and one for dps, because some encounters required more tanks, some required more heals and some required more DPS. In the same dungeon.

 

And that's just one example of this.

 

Your friend was wrong then.

Or your second hand info is off atleast.

 

After dual spec in WoW came, raiding flourished since the dynamic of every character expanded.

 

What you are referring to are the fights that only need 1 tank or fights where less healing is used. These encounters can be cleared with the original raid comp. Dualspeccing allowed us to adjust our comp to what we thought worked best for us. You do realise that all bosses in wow ever killed has been done so with almost all viable raid compositions.

 

So you did a mistake bringing wow up. I'm starting to think you never played a game with dualspec or accessible respeccing.

 

/From one that have cleared all content in wow (Not everything on HC ofc)

[KitePolaris]

You do know the cost resets every week, right?

[Paganwishes]

You do know the cost resets every week, right?

 

You do know I intend to play pvp more than once a week, right?

From what I've heard it resets 1 week after last respec, which is different than every week.

I cant confirm either statement since mine havent been reset yet.

[Truga]

I'm sorry but that simply isn't true.

 

This was later confirmed on these forums by a pro-respec "competitive top guild" dude, saying how WoW got better when they could make raids where party composition could change mid-raid.

[Maltuvion]

Explain to my how this absurd slippery slope argument even works. This game does not stop respecs. It doesn't even discourage them. THEY PUT THE GUY TO DO IT RIGHT THERE. The issue here is not respeccing, it is a matter of how badsqueak insane you get with it. A full flat out reduction of costs to ZERO in one week. ONE STINKING WEEK.

 

If this is killing you, then you either have atrocious ADHD or you want Dual Spec, which is fine. But don't act like not being able to completely reshuffle your points six times a day is some crime against humanity.

 

Of course cost is a discouraging factor. If you say otherwise, I presume you've never had to make large-scale investments in life, nor considered bailing out alot of money for, say, a house. If you'd bother to read my entire post, capping the cost at a reasonable amount (which, judging by many both here and on my server at least, is not the case currently) or allowing dual-specc would simply make for more enjoyment. It would mean less time spent after, say, a hard day's work farming just to enjoy other aspects to their full and not feel deadweight.

 

It's not killing me at all. I got in on millions of slicing credits. I have my own fun little minigame of maximizing profits off the AH. I'm rich and personally, I am not affected. I do, however, think it's a horrible design choice that reeks of the last decade. And not the latter parts of it, mind you.

[AdamLKvist]

I find it absolutely hilarious that the primary argument of the "pro-obscene-respecc-cost" crowd is that "you're not supposed to respecc". As 1990-kid said, all it will breed is cookie-cutter speccs, i.e. people doing the "optimal PvE dps specc Jedi Sage lvl 50" google search and picking the one most universally supported. It kills creativity. It kills flexibility. It kills diversity.

 

And really, why is it exactly that "you're" (that being everyone) are not encouraged to be creative? Your own? Intent on finding enjoyment in what you do? Why is it that a lobotomized minority of the MMO-player segment advocates strict adherence to ONE single specc after some very brief initial experimentation (and God forbid even that)? I used to raid high-end for 5 years on a feral druid and I stuck loyally to my class; had there been no respeccs I'd never have sunk even a fraction of the money nor time I did into WoW.

 

There is no valid argument against dual-specc. There is no valid argument against a, say, 15k credits cap on respecc, if Bioware is hellbent intent on living in the last decade. Hell, what saddens me most is that alot of people want to enjoy the full spectrum of their class and this wonderful game, yet are prohibited from doing it due limitations of time and being forced to spend said time grinding money, which few people, if any, find enjoyable. That is the true tragedy of this.

 

Oh, and it further inhibits TOR's already extremely unhealthy economy even more, and further widens the discrepancy between the "Slicer millionaires" (of which I am one) and "the poor working class hobos", which is the crowd many of my friends unfortunately belong to.

 

/1990-kid stands up applauding

[Garnet]

This was later confirmed on these forums by a pro-respec "competitive top guild" dude, saying how WoW got better when they could make raids where party composition could change mid-raid.

 

Dude, that's ONE guy saying something that doesn't make sense.

 

How can you get anywhere in competitive PvE, when, for your party composition to change mid-raid, you would need extra gear to give all the off-spec players and extra time in raids to become as good as their main-spec counterparts? It's nonsensical. The guy didn't know what he was talking about, and I very much doubt he was in a top guild.

 

It. Does. Not. Affect. Your. Game. Experience.

[Naracion]

I just wanted to put my thoughts out there regarding this. I am specced for heals for pve content to help out my guild. I like to pvp as well but am really not enjoying healing for that as the way the medal system is set up, you do not get rewarded as much for healing in warzones. I would like to see the respec fees be kept at a constant low until they put in the dual spec option.

[CTifer]

I agree here. I was leveling up a Shadow as dps and I tried respeccing to tank an instance for my friends. The cost adds up incredibly quick especially at lower level when people want the ability to try out the different specs to see which one they like best.

 

How much could you possibly be changing at "lower-levels" anyway? I find core powers don't really come until the 3rd tier or higher.

[Matte_Black]

Except currently the game doesn't at all validate all builds; those seeking optimization already float between 2, max 3 speccs that are proven optimal. If I PvP as a Jedi Guardian my tank-specc can work to some extent, but I'd be far, far more deadly and useful as Focus specc, dishing out 7k AoE blasts, chain-snaring targets and having superior movement. And yes, this would be superior if I was on defensive duty as well.

 

Currently the game leans even more towards extreme builds than if there was absolutely zero respecc cost; now people take the theoretically most optimal specc because they don't want to sink their hard-earned creds into an arbitrary money-sink.

 

And really.... those people who worry about their specc will always seek the most optimal, because such thing always exists. Sure you can roll as a 25 Sawbones Scoundrel rather than 31 as a healer in a PvE environment, but why would you? If you did that, you were pretty much not giving a jack about your performance. That's fine, too; as long as I don't have to play with such blatant disregard for people pulling their weight.

 

As I said, the extremes already exist in the environment you describe. The few who does not adhere to optimization are also the ones who couldn't care less about this. Of course a "trickle-down" effect might come where newbies actually start to take the most optimal specc, but then again... that is a fallacy on Bioware's talent trees, not the playerbase. 'Coz why'd you want to encourage incompetency? Why does anyone want to be subpar? I don't get the interesting part.

 

If putting in your full effort with a legal build is not pulling your weight, your assessment of participation is already skewed and evidence of the problem. If people want to be the best at X, Y, or Z, god bless 'em but, this game is not so hard that you need to be optimized to be a viable particapant.

 

Yes, there will always be optimizers but, having the best ought to be the reward for those willing to make some sacrifice for it, not just something easily maintained. I see no reason to encourage people to vacate middleground builds for a few FOTM-type builds just to cater to those who want the best of all worlds without investing in it.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Truga]

Dude, that's ONE guy saying something that doesn't make sense.

 

How can you get anywhere in competitive PvE, when, for your party composition to change mid-raid, you would need extra gear to give all the off-spec players and extra time in raids to become as good as their main-spec counterparts? It's nonsensical. The guy didn't know what he was talking about, and I very much doubt he was in a top guild.

 

It. Does. Not. Affect. Your. Game. Experience.

 

And you are another guy saying something else. Why should I trust you? How do I know you were in a top guild. Or in a guild at all for that matter?

 

I don't trust that other dude, nor do I trust you. My friend did do some world firsts on wow though, and I trust him pretty well when he says he doesn't want these things in this game, because he's had enough of it there already.

 

But hey, all power to random strangers on a forum, right?

[Lethality]

You do know I intend to play pvp more than once a week, right?

From what I've heard it resets 1 week after last respec, which is different than every week.

I cant confirm either statement since mine havent been reset yet.

 

Then you need to learn to PvP within your current spec. Simple as that. It's perfectly viable.

 

But if you want to play on the fringe and min/max your character, yes, you should absolutely have to pay the price for doing that.