Impatient People and Bad Behavior

[BenduKundalini]

Open your PMs please.

 

Thanks for your message Peter. I'll repeat here.

 

Let me explain. As you char tells the informant during bounty hunting in the cantina, what good is your life if you never stand up for what you believe in ?

 

I'm not Jewish, but I'm French. 3 days ago an 8-year old kid was mauled by 2 grown teens (15) a few miles from where I live, just for being Jewish. These things happen more and more. An old woman defenestrated, stores burnt. Same reason every time. ENOUGH !

 

 

I won't let racist, antisemitic comments slip, even less moderation that - I hope - hastily and without paying enough attention, dropped the ball on this.

 

 

If they cancel my account too bad. Too bad for them too. I have connections. They WILL get bad rap if they dare do that.

 

Peace

Edited February 2, 2018 by BenduKundalini

[PorsaLindahl]

SO, someone had the NERVE to signal my comment calling out a racist comment - as per forum rules

AND moderation gave me a warning.

 

How's that?

 

Second warning incoming, but this could go beyond these little pixel forums.

 

I didn't see where you "said" anything wrong. All you did was answer the question about what you found disgusting. I feel your pain though. I've had to take a few "breaks" from posting myself lately. I think the mods only respond to what someone tells them when it's reported, and respond to a single post taken out of context, without regard of how/why that post was made. Normally, when they warn they delete the post, but I don't see where they removed anything. If anything, they should edit posts and remove the statement that violates the rules, especially if it's just one line out of a long post. Deleting an entire post because of a single word, or phrase, is ridiculous.

 

I'm not condoning bad behavior by any means. But if you ask me, today's society is too sensitive. Everything offends someone. And I"m sure someone will get offended by this.

[BenduKundalini]

I didn't see where you "said" anything wrong. All you did was answer the question about what you found disgusting. I feel your pain though. I've had to take a few "breaks" from posting myself lately. I think the mods only respond to what someone tells them when it's reported, and respond to a single post taken out of context, without regard of how/why that post was made. Normally, when they warn they delete the post, but I don't see where they removed anything. If anything, they should edit posts and remove the statement that violates the rules, especially if it's just one line out of a long post. Deleting an entire post because of a single word, or phrase, is ridiculous.

 

I'm not condoning bad behavior by any means. But if you ask me, today's society is too sensitive. Everything offends someone. And I"m sure someone will get offended by this.

 

Thanks.

 

I said we should riot whenever slurs are used, such as the n word. Which I wrote (without the i).

 

It's like the scene in Life of Brian where they get stoned for explaing why they stone a "sinner", uttering the forbidden word he uttered... endless.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Thanks.

 

I said we should riot whenever slurs are used, such as the n word. Which I wrote (without the i).

 

It's like the scene in Life of Brian where they get stoned for explaing why they stone a "sinner", uttering the forbidden word he uttered... endless.

 

That is what flagged you, it has happened to me. Misuse of forum profanity filter. Your lucky I got a suspension for it.

[BenduKundalini]

That is what flagged you, it has happened to me. Misuse of forum profanity filter. Your lucky I got a suspension for it.

 

I sincerely hope it's just that then.

[PorsaLindahl]

If only the mods put half the effort in policing general chat in-game...

[DWho]

If only the mods put half the effort in policing general chat in-game...

 

^^ This

[LordTurin]

^^ This

 

I think it's because you can only report someone for something other than spam if you are physically close to them in-game (unless you take the time to go through the tedious ticket process), so there are fewer reports in game then on the forums (despite there being way more people in game). They need to make it so we can just right-click a name to report someone for harrasment/inappropriate behavior/etc.

 

It should work like this: a report box will pop up with the player name, time of the report, and a screenshot of the last couple lines of chat or whatever. Then we can just write a quick explanation, and off it goes.

Edited February 2, 2018 by LordTurin

[BenduKundalini]

If only the mods put half the effort in policing general chat in-game...

 

Game chat is like Nar Shaddaa enforcement, forums are Coruscant or sometimes Kaas rule of law...

Edited February 3, 2018 by BenduKundalini

[lightSaberAddiCt]

I sincerely hope it's just that then.

 

Oh no, it still means someone reported it unfortunately. Inswear someposters know what can be reported on better then lawyers.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

If only the mods put half the effort in policing general chat in-game...

 

You know I thought people were making a bigger deal about this then the problem really was, well in regards to tatooine, but no, last couple nights it has been horrible. Guess I am going to by a SH in manaan. Tatooine neighborhood seriously went down hill.

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

I thought this guy had a hissy fit when they took Theron away months ago and left forever after a big drama thread...? Who could have predicted it huh?

[PorsaLindahl]

I thought this guy had a hissy fit when they took Theron away months ago and left forever after a big drama thread...? Who could have predicted it huh?

 

He said he was leaving years ago, too. Practically every other post he made, he inserted something along the lines of "My sub is ending soon so I won't have to put up with bullies like you. But in the meantime I'm putting you on ignore." So he probably doesn't even see my posts (we've gone round and round in the past).

Edited February 3, 2018 by PorsaLindahl

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

He said he was leaving years ago, too. Practically every other post he made, he inserted something along the lines of "My sub is ending soon so I won't have to put up with bullies like you. But in the meantime I'm putting you on ignore." So he probably doesn't even see my posts (we've gone round and round in the past).

 

Same. Nothing I can't stand more than drama queens looking for sympathy.

[LordTurin]

Oh no, it still means someone reported it unfortunately. Inswear someposters know what can be reported on better then lawyers.

 

Shrug. They have a no profanity rule in the ToS. Putting a profane word and then replacing one character with a * does not exactly make it hard to figure out what the word is. And I'd rather BW have a strict rule, then leave it up to some random tech support person's discretion when someone uses a profane word like he used, even though in his case he was saying "we should stand against people who use words like this" (and then proceeded to use the word). Leaving stuff like that up for discretion could be way too easily abused.

[DarthSealth]

Are people actually talking about having big brother in the game next thing you’ll know that them in-game cameras are real cameras recording your characters every move just in case you commit a crime.

 

Do you guys hear yourselves sometimes? Like honestly it’s a game on the internet what do you expect out of a game? Put with the internet?

 

Jebus you guys need to get a grip and stop taking our rights to be a C U next Tuesday....

 

Sometimes i think you snowflakes need to stop playing and download the my little pony game app.

 

God imagine if WW3 broke out you guys be like “It’s too cold, it’s too dark, the general was mean to me.” Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Edited February 10, 2018 by DarthSealth

[AlrikFassbauer]

God imagine if WW3 broke out you guys be like “It’s too cold, it’s too dark, the general was mean to me.” Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

What I see in your reply just proves me of what I call the "heavimetalization of media".

 

Today I read about members of a heavy metal band forming a new band, quoted with one of them saying "I'm sick of bands saying 'this Album is quite dark' so we've gone full-on light."

[Yorioko]

I don't we should ignore the fact that there is perhaps at times the social aspects of the game is a bit too toxic.

The TOS of the game is not in any radically different from the TOS of any other MMO, so this could be said about almost any game in principal, but lets keep it to swtor.

 

As players we all have OUR personal expectation of the game and above all OUR personal view on what the IS for us personally.

 

Some players rush to reach level 10 ( or finish start planet only) and the go pvp, leveling their toons this way. Great, it is how they as players see and enjoy the game.

 

Some players want to get everything as fast as possible, rushing and focusing on CXPs as fast as they can come etc...

Also fine, it is how they like this game and great if they get their joy from it.

 

The problem I see with anything group related in this game is when these personal view and expectations clash.

 

I think a little story from a trip I did playing Hutt Ball will explain this very well.

 

I admit to have a very narrow minded view on pvp, both in general and in SWTOR in particular, mostly because my personal expectations and "view on what the game is about for ME" was less than fulfilled if you will.

This made stay away from pvp and to some extend put the "blame" on everyone else.

 

Then this huttball thing happened:

I was in a PUG group on the republic side, other my skills as a player I had no obvious disadvantage, like low or wrong gear etc........and IF or WHEN I managed somewhat to do my job DPSing my numbers were not something to be ashamed of, back to the game.....

I stated as I spawned in that I was clueless to PVP, I didn't possess a skill level where even managing an attack is to be expected, my skill is ZERO....however I am a good tactician.

Perhaps it was the day, perhaps it was a glimmer of light in the other wise darkness, but the other accepted this.

We took time, I think 45-60 secs before the match started to make a very simple but extremely successful plan.

I was ro run around randomly attacking the enemy, make myself a target TOO TEMPTING to not attack.

This meant I would die a lot, but I would also be a huge distraction to the other team, make one or two "hunt me down" at the cost of less to defend and move the ball.

 

We won all three rounds......

 

 

The point here is twofold, one is to communicate, the other is to accept that if you PUG, your own expectations are no longer valid, as odds re they will NOT be fulfilled.....

The other is to be willing to conform, even a seemingly "bad" start could end up as something very nice and worth remembering.

If you are unhappy with your PUG group, leave before YOU cause them to vote kick you.

 

and above all.

 

Do not expect to have it your way in an way shape or form if YOU CHOOSE to PUG for anything, then sorry to say the only rule is "accept anything for the duration, or leave" or naturally kick.

The latter I see could have a slight "negative" on the ones left....depending on the role of the kicked member it could take time to get a new.......

So if someone is watching the cut scenes and not using space while the rest are, then think how much time combined is watching these "boring" cutscenes compared to the time to get a new group member if we kick?

 

And now to languages, and name calling, finger pointing and laying blame......

Again i a PUG, NOBODY has a right above others, speedrun using Cartel Boosts for real money or not.......IF the boosts are paid for.....go use them with agreed upon groups, your guild etc......PUG groups where anything can happen and you can encounter anyone is NOT the place for the boosts to be used....or wasted rather.

 

It all boils down to the unwritten rules we as players often place over and above the rules of the game........

to may it is a rule that you know so and so before going into PVP zones, yet the game rules by them selves actually say go and be as bad as you want...it is fine............we as players do not say or think this......

 

So it is all about understanding what we choose to do........in a PUG sorry to say, nobody has the right and the only "right" we do have is to accept what comes....or leave.

[Amantionus]

I was in the Navy and on submarines on top of that (let the jokes commence). Profanity and insults don't really phase me at all. But, I still leave the filter on in game (besides, I bet the words I imagine are there are more entertaining). Why? Because while I can in fact "cuss like a Sailor" I also learned to appreciate the value of using profanity and other expletives appropriately to drive hope a point or cause greater emphasis. If you cuss all the time there is no particular value in the words when you actually need them.

 

Now, that being said, there are times where a moderator is appropriate as well. T|2oLL is harassing Bob, following him from thread to thread, flagging every post, or just generally trying to grief Bob constantly? By all means, let the mod hammer crush him. There are also times when it is inappropriate... Bob finally gets tired of it and decides to post exactly what he things of T|2oLL? You know, explaining about T|2oLL's parents lack of marriage status, his lack of intelligence, maybe even the inferiority of his genetic makeup, all in highly graphic terms? Maybe just a message saying, "Hey, we know this guy has really gotten under you skin, let us deal with him and try to calm down, ok?".

 

But this is the internet... Common sense and case by case review are not the norm, instead we get "rules", often of the "zero-tolerance" variety. Which pretty much means the powers that be have to either enforce them as written, engage in selective enforcement or not enforce them at all. I am one of those people that feels the only thing worse than a stupid rule is one that is not enforced. Selective enforcement tends to quickly get into the not enforced area, so I don't like that either. Perhaps a guide explaining tiers of enforcement would work... One offense, you get a message to tone it down. Two offenses you get a proper warning. Three offenses you get some sort of enforcement action (bans, squelch, etc. for a period of time. Established pattern of violations, that is when you go for the perma-ban. I doubt we will see such a system, or if one is implemented I doubt we would see the details of how it is enforced posted.

 

Lastly, in game vs. forums... Yeah, the ERP thing has taken off, you see people clad in nothing save what the game forces on them, strutting around and doing their thing. It doesn't bother me. But as it is something that is going on in game, it should be something that can be freely discussed in the game forums. Now, that does not mean a word by word description of the scene...I doubt anyone is rolling into the forums to read erotica (but I could be wrong). However, being able to say, "Guild XXX has been hosting Roman orgies in fleet and Bacchanalias on Tatooine" should be fine. Along with discussion on the pros and cons.

[Yorioko]

I was in the Navy and on submarines on top of that (let the jokes commence). Profanity and insults don't really phase me at all. But, I still leave the filter on in game (besides, I bet the words I imagine are there are more entertaining). Why? Because while I can in fact "cuss like a Sailor" I also learned to appreciate the value of using profanity and other expletives appropriately to drive hope a point or cause greater emphasis. If you cuss all the time there is no particular value in the words when you actually need them.

 

Now, that being said, there are times where a moderator is appropriate as well. T|2oLL is harassing Bob, following him from thread to thread, flagging every post, or just generally trying to grief Bob constantly? By all means, let the mod hammer crush him. There are also times when it is inappropriate... Bob finally gets tired of it and decides to post exactly what he things of T|2oLL? You know, explaining about T|2oLL's parents lack of marriage status, his lack of intelligence, maybe even the inferiority of his genetic makeup, all in highly graphic terms? Maybe just a message saying, "Hey, we know this guy has really gotten under you skin, let us deal with him and try to calm down, ok?".

 

But this is the internet... Common sense and case by case review are not the norm, instead we get "rules", often of the "zero-tolerance" variety. Which pretty much means the powers that be have to either enforce them as written, engage in selective enforcement or not enforce them at all. I am one of those people that feels the only thing worse than a stupid rule is one that is not enforced. Selective enforcement tends to quickly get into the not enforced area, so I don't like that either. Perhaps a guide explaining tiers of enforcement would work... One offense, you get a message to tone it down. Two offenses you get a proper warning. Three offenses you get some sort of enforcement action (bans, squelch, etc. for a period of time. Established pattern of violations, that is when you go for the perma-ban. I doubt we will see such a system, or if one is implemented I doubt we would see the details of how it is enforced posted.

 

Lastly, in game vs. forums... Yeah, the ERP thing has taken off, you see people clad in nothing save what the game forces on them, strutting around and doing their thing. It doesn't bother me. But as it is something that is going on in game, it should be something that can be freely discussed in the game forums. Now, that does not mean a word by word description of the scene...I doubt anyone is rolling into the forums to read erotica (but I could be wrong). However, being able to say, "Guild XXX has been hosting Roman orgies in fleet and Bacchanalias on Tatooine" should be fine. Along with discussion on the pros and cons.

 

Well said!

 

One thing I think is worth adding is that most, if not ALL MMOS out there have to fall under "US Legislation" which to be fair is rather conservative and to many europeans extreme.

I think this explains the selective enforcement, enforcing where the company ( in this case bw, ea and Disney....yes the latter too) does this as a way to prevent lawsuits made by the greedy but lesser minds out there.

And those greedy and lesser minds sue for just about anything

[PorsaLindahl]

/snip

 

I've served in the military and law enforcement. I've heard and been called some rather colorful terms, so I'm not easily offended. But...

 

There is a saying: Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Just because this is the internet doesn't justify poor behavior. Ask yourself this: Would these same people who talk all this garbage in General Chat act the same way if they were in an actual public place (like a restaurant for example)? If the answer is "Yes" then they need to learn a bit about respect. I've lived in Europe as well. And yes, some of their ideologies about what's morally acceptable varies a great deal from what we have in the US and even other countries, so we have to deal with moral ambiguity. But again, these people need to learn to put a filter between their fingers and their "dirty little minds" and think "If I said this in a restaurant for everyone to hear, would that be okay?"

 

And then ask yourself this: What would you think if you were sitting in a restaurant with your family while in the next booth one of these people was on their cell phone with their boyfriend/girlfriend and telling them explicitly what they would be doing to them if they were together? Would you be comfortable? Would you ask them to keep it down? Would you complain to the waiter/waitress or manager? Would you get up and leave? Or would you think "To each their own."? What if they were "going at it" in the next booth?

 

So your example of that guild hosting orgies on fleet is not fine by any means. That is still a "public" location. If they want to do something like that in a private venue like a stronghold, more power to them. We have to draw the line somewhere.

Edited February 11, 2018 by PorsaLindahl

[LordTurin]

Well said!

 

One thing I think is worth adding is that most, if not ALL MMOS out there have to fall under "US Legislation" which to be fair is rather conservative and to many europeans extreme.

I think this explains the selective enforcement, enforcing where the company ( in this case bw, ea and Disney....yes the latter too) does this as a way to prevent lawsuits made by the greedy but lesser minds out there.

And those greedy and lesser minds sue for just about anything

 

I think the people don't really get is that its not really "selective enforcement". BW does not actively watch chat. It has some minor filters to immediately squelch some things (mostly credit sellers), but other than that, all of their enforcement is based on people reporting things. If they do, BW then inspects the issue, and decides if the activity was against the ToS, and then takes action. It is basically "do whatever you want" as long as it doesn't violate the ToS AND bother people enough that they report it.

 

I've served in the military and law enforcement. I've heard and been called some rather colorful terms, so I'm not easily offended. But...

 

There is a saying: Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Just because this is the internet doesn't justify poor behavior. Ask yourself this: Would these same people who talk all this garbage in General Chat act the same way if they were in an actual public place (like a restaurant for example)? If the answer is "Yes" then they need to learn a bit about respect. I've lived in Europe as well. And yes, some of their ideologies about what's morally acceptable varies a great deal from what we have in the US and even other countries, so we have to deal with moral ambiguity. But again, these people need to learn to put a filter between their fingers and their "dirty little minds" and think "If I said this in a restaurant for everyone to hear, would that be okay?"

 

And then ask yourself this: What would you think if you were sitting in a restaurant with your family while in the next booth one of these people was on their cell phone with their boyfriend/girlfriend and telling them explicitly what they would be doing to them if they were together? Would you be comfortable? Would you ask them to keep it down? Would you complain to the waiter/waitress or manager? Would you get up and leave? Or would you think "To each their own."? What if they were "going at it" in the next booth?

 

So your example of that guild hosting orgies on fleet is not fine by any means. That is still a "public" location. If they want to do something like that in a private venue like a stronghold, more power to them. We have to draw the line somewhere.

 

The difference here is that in a restaurant, you can usually assume that the staff of the restaurant would see the person saying this stuff, and do something about it. If someone is talking loudly into their phone explicitly, I would not assume that I needed to say something to the management to get something done (though I guess if they kept doing it for 15 minutes, I would say something...). SWTOR though, is like an all you can eat Buffet, where you bus your own table. There is a management and staff there, but they are all sitting at the front, so you actually have to go and find them to complain about other people acting in a bad manner if you want anything done.

 

Honestly, I assume that's most of what it is. Reporting folks for bad behavior is a PITA unless you are 30m from them, so people in gen chat don't go through the trouble of copying the name, opening up a ticket, etc. etc. since we can't right click and report bad behavior.

 

So basically, the people erping on fleet is not fine, but if no one reports them, nothing is going to get done.

[Ibokagain]

First off I am NOT condoning what they did but I'll play devil's advocate here and say this--it's Directive 7. There's somewhere in the neighborhood of a billion droids in it. The flashpoint IS droids. Most people are in a hurry when they get in a FP and they were prob mad waiting on you scavenging dozens and dozens of droids. Did you indicate to them at the start of the FP you would be doing that?

 

Also, I'm willing to bet only the vote-kick initiator knew it said "Jew". If there was some internal dialogue going on among them (often is) in whisper/discord/whatever sure, they might have all said "Let's kick this guy". But that doesn't mean they all knew the initiator would write "Jew" in it nor did they ever notice it. Happened plenty of times to me. Someone needs to be kicked, maybe some of us discuss it, someone throws up a kick vote--I never read why. If you need to be kicked I click the check. Point is: don't lump the entire group into it because of one individual.

 

What this guy said. It sucks that reason was in the vote kick no reason for it. Also if you didn't mention you are going to scavenge the million droids I would of vote kicked you as well. If you need to scavenge tons of droid do it in a guild group, group of friends that are cool with it or run solo mode. There is way to much story that every never skips which is beyond annoying too.

[Amantionus]

Just to clarify, I am not saying that hosting such events is OK (that is something for people with more morals and time than I to worry about). My point is more along the lines that something that happens in game should be a fair topic for discussion.

 

I am not saying the debauchery is a good thing or that public ERP is desirable. I am just saying that it is out there. That being the case, a forum user should be able to have a discussion about "group whatever is doing such-and-such here in the forums, provided the terminology used is within the allowed guidelines.

 

Obviously, an explicit description of some ERP scene would be a "no-go". But I feel one should be able to have a discussion about whatever is going on in the game.

 

Now, someone mentions using a "would you do/say that in a public place" as a guideline. I myself use that sort of reference with the kids I coach these days, "what would your grandmother say about that?". It is a good rule of thumb for anyone. Nor should the anonymity of the internet mean that everyone cast off the social mores. However, working with young people and in schools now, I am saddened to say that much of what I see in general chat in game is tame compared to what you can see and hear in some high schools... So it is not just on the internet that things are going down the tube in a hurry...

 

All that being said. I remain one of those "words don't bother me" people. If I see crazy ERP shenanigans or profanity laced general chat, I just ignore it and move on. Unless someone is just so out of line you can't ignore it, I am of the opinion of "live and let live" in game. When it gets to targeted insults, griefing, cyber-bullying or whatever the term of the week is, then by all means, make with the reports. If it is just people doing their own thing, unless it is impacting you, just move on.