So many defensive cooldowns

[Tsillah]

But Marauders have had no ability bloat on DCDs, they have the same exact DCDs in the same form that they did at launch. All their ability bloat has come on offensive utility skills and attack abilities.

 

Let's call a spade a spade here on what is filling up a marauder's hot bar. They have the same 5 DCDs they've had since launch and it wasn't an issue then with overstuffing a hot bar, you could fit literally everything on 3 bars, including base class skills you didn't even use anymore.

 

Just because they had 5 dcd's from the start, doesn't mean it didn't start bloated. Not that many new skills have been added with new expansions. You're lucky if your class gets 1 new skill with an expansion.

 

So really from the point of view of making a more streamlined skill group, the game basically started with a bloated skill group. Whether that's a bad thing, depends on the person. Some like the complexity, some don't.

 

That's the key. If you look at your main two skill bars and have 24 skills slots basically all filled with class skills and still need at least another one to get all your class skills on there, then you could say that that's a bit much.

 

I mean not every class is exactly the same but when you have like 30 individual skills, it's not strange that some people start wondering why. Whether it's a good idea to simplify things is another question.

 

There are MMOs that have lots of skills to deal with and those who don't. Guild Wars 2 uses 10 skill slots but the first 5 can be changed with weapon swaps between your two equipped weapons and have an auto-attack. Between combat you can change the other 5 and you can equip different weapons altogether. Is that better? Is it worse? That's personal.

 

So call it whatever you want, but the question is, if it's really fun to have around 30 class skills to deal with? Some will say yes, others will say no. Opinions, preferences. That's all.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Tsillah

[Lammia]

I understand how they can be useful. What I'm asking is, "What is the virtue of having 5 different defensive cooldowns for a pure DPS class as opposed to, say, 2 defensive cooldowns with a shorter cd timer?"

 

It seems completely superfluous to me to have 5 slightly different utility abilities that all fill essentially the exact same niche.

 

Also, please understand that this isn't about what I, personally, can or cannot do. This is a question about what is ideal game design. I submit that this kind of ability bloat is a result of developers who can't or won't make choices about which abilities are really necessary. It isn't beneficial for players. It's just lazy.

 

In hard content your healer does't lose their mind, trying to keep alive your otherwise squishy behind.

 

And *5* DCD? How did you count 5? Or you include those that bosses are immune to? If so, see my answer above. A marauder is one of most defenseless and squishy classes in content that deals serious damage.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Lammia

[Rion_Starkiller]

According our very own Merovejek's Sentinel Guide on Dulfy, there are six DCD's

 

Guarded by the Force

Reduces the damage you take by 99% for 4 seconds.

 

Saber Ward

Increases melee and ranged defenses by 50% and absorbs 25% of the damage taken from Force and Tech attacks.

 

Rebuke

Reduces all damage taken by 20% and deals energy damage to attackers. Lasts 6 seconds but refreshes when attacked but cannot last longer than 30 seconds

 

Blade Blitz

Quickly rushes forward striking enemies in its path and increasing your defense chance by 100% while blitzing (can be done if immobilized if utility is chosen)

 

Pacify

If the Utility is taken then applying Pacify will cause an increase to your Force and Tech resistance by 75% for 6 seconds

 

Force Camouflage

Reduces all damage taken by 50%, immune to controlling effects

 

But personally, I like complicated offensive rotations, not defensive ones.

Not claiming to be a Sent/Mara expert tho.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[Draqsko]

Just because they had 5 dcd's from the start, doesn't mean it didn't start bloated. Not that many new skills have been added with new expansions. You're lucky if your class gets 1 new skill with an expansion.

 

So really from the point of view of making a more streamlined skill group, the game basically started with a bloated skill group. Whether that's a bad thing, depends on the person. Some like the complexity, some don't.

 

That's the key. If you look at your main two skill bars and have 24 skills slots basically all filled with class skills and still need at least another one to get all your class skills on there, then you could say that that's a bit much.

 

I mean not every class is exactly the same but when you have like 30 individual skills, it's not strange that some people start wondering why. Whether it's a good idea to simplify things is another question.

 

There are MMOs that have lots of skills to deal with and those who don't. Guild Wars 2 uses 10 skill slots but the first 5 can be changed with weapon swaps between your two equipped weapons and have an auto-attack. Between combat you can change the other 5 and you can equip different weapons altogether. Is that better? Is it worse? That's personal.

 

So call it whatever you want, but the question is, if it's really fun to have around 30 class skills to deal with? Some will say yes, others will say no. Opinions, preferences. That's all.

 

Regardless of your opinion about ability bloat in SWTOR, Marauders and Sentinels do not suffer that bloat on their DCDs, rather their skill bloat is in their offensive utilities (especially those dealing with the Fury mechanic which no other class has to deal with) and their attack abilities.

 

In other words, the OP is complaining about the wrong thing for Mara/Sent bloat. They actually have the least amount of DCDs of any class in the game so reducing them further is a bit redundant especially when their real problem is on the other end, no?

[RDeanOU]

Perhaps a new game would suit you better, because the groundwork has already been laid, so it is unlikely that they will rip apart the game to change and restructure the entire system to accommodate for removing "clunky design." The clunky design was likely a result of larger prioritized game systems that would allow their "dream" to come to life. When they started creating the content, they needed to counter-balance and instead of making sweeping gamewide changes, they micromanaged and added less grandiose skills that filled in the missing pieces. They cant go back now, so your request seems to be directed more towards a game still in development.

 

I don't expect it to change anytime soon, mostly because this game likely doesn't have the budget to fix these issues and it isn't something that makes the game unplayable. It's just a piece of poor design that I am pointing out. If they ever wanted to iron out some of this game's problems, this would be a great area to look at, but I'm not holding my breath.

[RDeanOU]

Unexplainably, everyone on this thread except two people desires it to stay the way it is.

Perhaps EA should also redesign the meaning of words such as desirable or is or self-evident...

 

To quote someone here :

 

 

But we guess you are entitled to your own opinion.

 

It's really not that difficult to explain. Self-selected, limited sample size is limited. Most of the people who are bothered by this kind of ability bloat moved on from this game years ago. The people posting here are the diehards who aren't open to criticism of what they are used to.

 

You are entitled to like clunky design, but I'm not going to pretend it isn't clunky just because you like it.

[Draqsko]

It's really not that difficult to explain. Self-selected, limited sample size is limited. Most of the people who are bothered by this kind of ability bloat moved on from this game years ago. The people posting here are the diehards who aren't open to criticism of what they are used to.

 

You are entitled to like clunky design, but I'm not going to pretend it isn't clunky just because you like it.

 

GW2 has 10 abilities, yet combat there feels fairly clunky to me compared to here. Removing abilities doesn't make combat feel less clunky I am afraid.

 

PS. Tera has the best combat I have ever played as far as both smoothness and complexity, it required you filling the 2 hot bars you had and even then you had to choose to leave off some skills on certain classes like Warriors (the Tera equivalent of Sentinels and Marauders with the ability to evasion tank using your iframes and "immune while executing" attacks).

Edited December 21, 2017 by Draqsko

[BenduKundalini]

It's really not that difficult to explain. Self-selected, limited sample size is limited. Most of the people who are bothered by this kind of ability bloat moved on from this game years ago. The people posting here are the diehards who aren't open to criticism of what they are used to.

 

You are entitled to like clunky design, but I'm not going to pretend it isn't clunky just because you like it.

 

That you like it or not is your prerogative. Addressing everyboy like your word is Scripture, not so much.

 

Perhaps people left and I'm sure some did for that reason actually. And some stayed for that reason as well.

Edited December 21, 2017 by BenduKundalini

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I understand how they can be useful. What I'm asking is, "What is the virtue of having 5 different defensive cooldowns for a pure DPS class as opposed to, say, 2 defensive cooldowns with a shorter cd timer?"

 

It seems completely superfluous to me to have 5 slightly different utility abilities that all fill essentially the exact same niche.

 

Also, please understand that this isn't about what I, personally, can or cannot do. This is a question about what is ideal game design. I submit that this kind of ability bloat is a result of developers who can't or won't make choices about which abilities are really necessary. It isn't beneficial for players. It's just lazy.

 

 

Every other class in the game has self heals, they don't. Heals matter a lot.

 

You might consider taking a look at Merc and Sniper's DCDs if you want a gander at what truly broken DCDs look like, and, they both have self heals up the yippy. [Merc effectively can have three lives].

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

The first question you should've asked is:

What, specifically, do each of the defensive skills protect against?

 

My guess is that they all protect against different types of attacks, in which case they dont all do the same thing.

 

Force Camouflage is not effectively an defensive cool down. Useful? Ohh yeah, but as an escape, not as a defensive cooldown.

 

If you can't use it while fighting, that's not defense. Defense is being in a fight and protection/defending while in a fight. You can't do that with Force Camouflage.

 

Very useful however, no doubt.

[Uruare]

The trick to thriving in the land of 50+ buttons is figuring out what you actually use and throwing everything else off the bars.

 

I use most of my powers on most of my builds, but my significant other only soloes around doing dailies and heroics and has no need or use for more than about 10 buttons most of the time, not counting mounts and otger superfluities.

[Teladis]

I agree with you op.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

What is the advantage of complexity in this particular facet of the game? I still have not seen an answer to that question. It’s complexity for the sake of complexity only. That’s poor design. You should have enough variety in your rotation and in the fights themselves that you don’t have to manufacture complexity by taking up half of a quickbar with different defensive cooldowns.

 

Not to be too snarky, but if you want just a 2 button game, there is GW2. Just because you dont like something, does not make it bad or bloated design. A few posters gave you a very good run down of why mauraders have the cool downs. Your problem is that they dont agree with your pov.

Edited December 21, 2017 by lightSaberAddiCt

[Teladis]

What the op is saying is this.

 

It is not hard to use the skills. It is tedious. To say it takes a ton of skill to use defense cds is false.

 

Making the game less tedious would go a long ways to improve the combat in a game weakest link is the combat.

[ivanhedgehog]

A lot players on this forum don't understand that abilities that effectively do the same thing should just be merged into one ability to prevent bloat and make balance easier. But I get where the OP is coming from unfortunately as you can see from responses people don't agree and don't like change.

 

this isnt a console game, You will have to deal with a more complex game. we have confidence you can do it.

[Teladis]

this isnt a console game, You will have to deal with a more complex game. we have confidence you can do it.

 

It is not complex. It is tedious.

 

They copy wow game design as you can see from my sig, but did not update that game design when wow did.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Teladis

[ivanhedgehog]

If we cannot agree that it is more enjoyable to be challenged by content rather than the limitations and inefficiencies within one's own kit, then I guess there is nothing more to say. It seems self-evident to me that the former is far more enjoyable while the latter is just frustrating. I would rather have well designed classes that are streamlined and efficient and find challenge in the content. If you prefer to be challenged by clunky class design, I guess you are entitled to your own opinion.

 

while they are changing this, they arent making new content.....look at the summer of nerfs for example. I would much rather have the resources spent on new planets, wz, ops etc than a pointless change of dcd's

[Teladis]

while they are changing this, they arent making new content.....look at the summer of nerfs for example. I would much rather have the resources spent on new planets, wz, ops etc than a pointless change of dcd's

 

No amount of story content is great unless they fix the tedious combat.

 

I mean sabers don't even hit each other when in fights. We down graded from the single player version lol

[RDeanOU]

Not to be too snarky, but if you want just a 2 button game, there is GW2. Just because you dont like something, does not make it bad or bloated design. A few posters gave you a very good run down of why mauraders have the cool downs. Your problem is that they dont agree with your pov.

 

Not to be a jerk, but if you would have actually read my comments in this thread you wouldn't have made such a stupid comment.

 

I don't want a 2 button game. I want complexity and challenge to come from an interesting damage rotation and the content, not from unnecessarily cluttered quickbars full of multiple buttons that do only slightly different versions of the same thing (i.e. reducing incoming damage).

[RDeanOU]

while they are changing this, they arent making new content.....look at the summer of nerfs for example. I would much rather have the resources spent on new planets, wz, ops etc than a pointless change of dcd's

 

They aren't changing it. This has been a problem since the game was launched.

 

Frankly, I prefer it when developers can fix problems with the gameplay and also make new content. It shouldn't have to be a choice.

[Teladis]

Not to be a jerk, but if you would have actually read my comments in this thread you wouldn't have made such a stupid comment.

 

I don't want a 2 button game. I want complexity and challenge to come from an interesting damage rotation and the content, not from unnecessarily cluttered quickbars full of multiple buttons that do only slightly different versions of the same thing (i.e. reducing incoming damage).

 

I always love how you bring up points, and they dare question your skill, or say you want a easier game, when this game is dirt easy. It is just tedious, and could be made much better.

 

 

This game is a wow clone pure and simple. (my sig is proof.) Yet, they did not learn from wow mistakes, and now we are left with a old tedious system.

[RDeanOU]

It is not complex. It is tedious.

 

They copy wow game design as you can see from my sig, but did not update that game design when wow did.

 

This.

 

WoW has continued to streamline its design while adding in new content. SWTOR hasn't bothered to do that.

[RDeanOU]

I always love how you bring up points, and they dare question your skill, or say you want a easier game, when this game is dirt easy. It is just tedious, and could be made much better.

 

 

This game is a wow clone pure and simple. (my sig is proof.) Yet, they did not learn from wow mistakes, and now we are left with a old tedious system.

 

Right. Difficulty isn't my issue. It's never been my issue. My issue is how you get there. You can make the game difficult without making it tedious and bloated in its design.

 

As a DPS class, I want to make meaningful choices that impact my damage output. I don't want to waste my decision making on which of my many DCD's to use in a particular situation. I don't have a problem making choices. I just want making those choices to feel fun instead of tedious.

[LadyNashira]

Level 39s should not post about DCDs, there is a real problem and this is not it.

 

The devs are easily confused, pls stop

[RDeanOU]

Level 39s should not post about DCDs, there is a real problem and this is not it.

 

The devs are easily confused, pls stop

 

1. I said I’m currently playing a Marauder that is level 39. It is not my first character. It’s not even the first Marauder that I have leveled. I have played since pre-launch and have at least finished the class story of every class, several more than once. This doesn’t make me an authority by any means, but the suggestion that I don’t know what I’m talking about because I’m only level 39 is completely mistaken.

 

2. The fact that you have that many DCDs before you even reach max level was part of the point. You don’t even have all of the important skills for your rotation, but good thing you’ve got 5 different DCDs to use during the trivial leveling content where you never even need 1.

 

3. Ability bloat is a huge problem in this game and this is an illustration of it.

 

4. The devs aren’t going to fix this anyway. It’s never been addressed even though it was clunky when the game launched.