So many defensive cooldowns

[RACATW]

I think you're playing the wrong class, watch this video for tips by the way:

 

He's the highest level player I've ever seen, an elite among elites. Trust me man.

Edited December 20, 2017 by RACATW

[RDeanOU]

You say those that want to deal with cool downs, etc they would roll a tank but what if they want to play a certain class that does not have tanks. Agents and Smugglers has no tree that gives you a choice to be a tank. It is either pure DPS (snipers or gunslingers) or a choice of DPS or healers (operatives or scoundrels). Those that roll those classes do not have a choice to roll a tank .

 

My point is that people who want to juggle a bunch of abilities to mitigate their incoming damage are likely to roll a tank from the get go.

[DanNV]

What is the point of that? It feels like this could be reduced to 2 cooldowns and it would make far more sense and be much easier for people to manage.

 

A lot of it is required to survive end-game PVE bosses. And more-so after they nerfed all the DPS and the healers.

[RDeanOU]

Right now you're just a noob mara though. No offense!

 

The moment you enter max level pvp you'll be eaten alive. Then wish you understood what each DCD does, lol.

 

First of all, this Marauder is not my first character. I played this game from pre-launch.

 

Secondly, it isn’t that I don’t understand what each ability does. It’s that I don’t see a need for 5 slightly different variations of “reduces damage taken by X%.” It’s bloated design, plain and simple.

[RACATW]

First of all, this Marauder is not my first character. I played this game from pre-launch.

 

Secondly, it isn’t that I don’t understand what each ability does. It’s that I don’t see a need for 5 slightly different variations of “reduces damage taken by X%.” It’s bloated design, plain and simple.

 

I thought we needed a new thread for this about complex game design so I started one here! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=940387

[RDeanOU]

A lot of it is required to survive end-game PVE bosses. And more-so after they nerfed all the DPS and the healers.

 

Yes, and my point is that this is bad design. If you require your pure DPS classes to juggle 5 different defensive cooldowns, you haven’t balanced those encounters properly. If encounters are designed well, these should be emergency buttons to deal with specific mechanics or cover up an occasional mistake. You shouldn’t need half a dozen of those.

[DanNV]

Yes, and my point is that this is bad design. If you require your pure DPS classes to juggle 5 different defensive cooldowns, you haven’t balanced those encounters properly. If encounters are designed well, these should be emergency buttons to deal with specific mechanics or cover up an occasional mistake. You shouldn’t need half a dozen of those.

 

No argument there. The game in general has some major design issues and the nerfs this year have just made them worse. I don't expect any of them will get fixed, either.

[BenduKundalini]

You're having learn-to-play issues. If you understood how to play marauder properly, you'd know exactly what all of these defensive cooldowns are for.

 

Cloak of Pain: Protects yourself and also increases your DPS

 

Obfuscate: Doesn't just protect yourself, but also protects party members.

 

Camouflage: Allows you to escape dangerous situations in PVP and allows you to avoid half of the damage on big attacks

 

Undying rage: Allows you to survive in situations where you otherwise would definitely be doomed. Great for allowing healers to recover from mistakes.

 

These are all valuable abilities and no you cannot just crunch them together and have two abilities all doing 3 different things. These abilities are not compatible with each other and there is no overlap. Learn your class, please.

 

Absolutely. And that's without endgame utilities that tie those DCDs to enhanced attacks. These are the two I use :

 

Ruthless Aggressor:

Vicious Throw refunds 2 Rage when used on a target affected by your Obfuscate and can be used on any target affected by your Obfuscate, regardless of remaining health. Additionally, activating Obfuscate grants Ruthless Aggressor, increasing your Force and Tech resistance by 75% for 6 seconds.

 

Hidden Savagery:

While Force Camouflage is active, you gain a charge of Hidden Savagery every 0.5 seconds. Each charge of Hidden Savagery increases the damage dealt by your next melee attack by 4%. Stacks up to 12 charges and lasts for up to 6 seconds after exiting Force Camouflage.

 

Also this one is VERY useful to get more rage

Cloak of Rage:

While Cloak of Pain is active, it generates 1 Rage whenever you are attacked. This effect cannot occur more than once every 2 seconds.

 

In tandem (later) with

Cloak of Annihilation:

Each use of Assault, Battering Assault, and Crippling Slash reduces the active cooldown of Cloak of Pain by 3 seconds.

Edited December 20, 2017 by BenduKundalini

[StupidWiz]

DCDs are very useful in raids and FPs. They can help ease your healer(s) burden a bit, thus increasing your chance in completing those Ops and Fps. You may not see their usefulness in solo, but when you start doing FPs and Ops... you'll see it. Just ignore em when soloing, I put em in the quickbar but I usually don't use it but it doesnt hurt me putting em in the sidebar.

[denavin]

Even if this were true (it isn’t) There is no good reason to force players to analyze what kind of damage is happening in these situations and then choose the correct defensive ability from 5-6 different options.

 

I'm going to differ with you there.

 

Knowing what your enemy is doing to you and knowing how to counter it is a necessary part of any game that requires you to do more than, HACK and SLASH. If forces you to use the 3 lbs. of grey matter in your skull for more than something to hold your ears apart. It requires you to use your intelligence, to analyze your situation and then come up with a viable combat strategy to defeat your foe, and not to simply bash it with your light stick till it dies....

[RDeanOU]

DCDs are very useful in raids and FPs. They can help ease your healer(s) burden a bit, thus increasing your chance in completing those Ops and Fps. You may not see their usefulness in solo, but when you start doing FPs and Ops... you'll see it. Just ignore em when soloing, I put em in the quickbar but I usually don't use it but it doesnt hurt me putting em in the sidebar.

 

Please read threads before commenting. You aren’t addressing what this thread is about.

[RDeanOU]

I'm going to differ with you there.

 

Knowing what your enemy is doing to you and knowing how to counter it is a necessary part of any game that requires you to do more than, HACK and SLASH. If forces you to use the 3 lbs. of grey matter in your skull for more than something to hold your ears apart. It requires you to use your intelligence, to analyze your situation and then come up with a viable combat strategy to defeat your foe, and not to simply bash it with your light stick till it dies....

 

Your rotation and the fight mechanics should be adequately challenging that they fully engage your brain without requiring you to parse in a split second whether the bad you couldn’t get away from is causing physical or some other type of damage.

[BenduKundalini]

Please read threads before commenting. You aren’t addressing what this thread is about.

 

Fair enough. He thought you don't care about DCDs, but what you ask is a simpler set of DCDs. Just the two, with lower cooldowns to compensate. One size-fits-all DCDs.

 

We don't. We like them to be situational. It's part of what makes this game great. Complexity.

[RDeanOU]

Fair enough. He thought you don't care about DCDs, but what you ask is a simpler set of DCDs. Just the two, with lower cooldowns to compensate. One size-fits-all DCDs.

 

We don't. We like them to be situational. It's part of what makes this game great. Complexity.

 

What is the advantage of complexity in this particular facet of the game? I still have not seen an answer to that question. It’s complexity for the sake of complexity only. That’s poor design. You should have enough variety in your rotation and in the fights themselves that you don’t have to manufacture complexity by taking up half of a quickbar with different defensive cooldowns.

[denavin]

Your rotation and the fight mechanics should be adequately challenging that they fully engage your brain without requiring you to parse in a split second whether the bad you couldn’t get away from is causing physical or some other type of damage.

 

If somebody is throwing rocks at you do you hide behind glass or wood...

If somebody attacks you with an axe do you hide behind wood or rock...

If somebody throws an explosive to you still hide behind the rock? Why not the wood?

 

Because you know that wood will stop rocks but NOT an explosive.. You just instantaneously analyzed the attack and choose the correct defense. It's not that hard really.

 

You need to know what your foe is using against you in order to defend against it. That is simply common sence and having a good rotation will not help you if you choose the wrong defense. One defense does NOT cover all and should not cover all situations.

 

If you ever played EvE Online then you would learn this little fact.

 

That failure to know your enemy, is to die by your enemy. No amount of firepower or rotation skill will save you.

 

I would rather they not DUMB the game down any more that they already have....

[Sareeph]

What is the advantage of complexity in this particular facet of the game? I still have not seen an answer to that question. It’s complexity for the sake of complexity only. That’s poor design. You should have enough variety in your rotation and in the fights themselves that you don’t have to manufacture complexity by taking up half of a quickbar with different defensive cooldowns.

 

We have seen what happens when the Dev's simplify parts of the game due to public feedback. The gearing system was too confusing so we adapted this much easier form of attaining bis gear. Asking for the dev's to merge dcd's to alleviate confusion or bloat is just asking for trouble. Every one of those has a place and time.

 

You keep stating that a "pure dps" doesn't need that many. My question to you is why having too many dcd's are relevant to a pure dps and not in general? Also, one of the five is an agro dump if used properly and another is a utility which you seem to think is only a personal defensive. I can think of multiple situations in both formats of playstyle to apply obfuscate of which none are when I am being targeted.

[BenduKundalini]

What is the advantage of complexity in this particular facet of the game? I still have not seen an answer to that question. It’s complexity for the sake of complexity only. That’s poor design. You should have enough variety in your rotation and in the fights themselves that you don’t have to manufacture complexity by taking up half of a quickbar with different defensive cooldowns.

 

It's a false question.

 

You want simplicity for the sake of simplicity. And then try to reverse the onus.

 

Actually that got me thinking. What if SWTOR played liked ESO (only other MMO I've played). No cooldowns, you can spam anything as long has you have resources, be it offensive or defensive. Only thing that acts like cooldowns is Ultimate abilities, which take a while to replenish.

Well, perhaps Swtor would also be fun played like that. It so happens that this other games has just two measly action bars - and just the one for the first fifteen levels. Is this tied-in to game mechanisms? I don't know. But it certainly is a fad. Something younger players want.

 

Wondering if we could have 4 or 5 bars worth of skills, with no CDs.

I know, not what you mentioned, but thinking out loud.

[casirabit]

My point is that people who want to juggle a bunch of abilities to mitigate their incoming damage are likely to roll a tank from the get go.

 

Not really. This game is based on story and a lot of people chose the class they want to play based on the story they want. My first character I chose when the game launched was a Smuggler. I wanted to try the smuggler story.

[StupidWiz]

I remember when Heroic 2+ was difficult to solo, with low lvl characters I always tried to solo it with companions whose classes are still limited back then like Corso can only be tank, Risha can only be dps. I didnt get a Healing companion before completing Hoth so I resorted using Ship droid to heal me in those heroics even so it's still kinda tricky cause of limited dcds. Nowadays, people can just roll any companion to healer mode and complain why there are so many dcds lol

[olagatonjedi]

Ive already explained why it is superior.

[TrixxieTriss]

This is an issue with every class so far as I know, but I'm just going to talk about the Marauder I've been playing because it illustrates the problem well.

 

My Sith Marauder is level 39, is a pure dps class, and he has 5 different defensive cooldowns. This doesn't count Heroic Moment and only counts abilities that have actual damage reductions.

 

What is the point of that? It feels like this could be reduced to 2 cooldowns and it would make far more sense and be much easier for people to manage.

 

Because in pvp, just about every other class has a self heal, Mara’s don’t. They have to rely solely on DCD to survive in a pvp environment that already has way too many stuns, mez, cc’s and slows. Without the DCD’s, Mara’s would be dog meat.

[TrixxieTriss]

I understand how they can be useful. What I'm asking is, "What is the virtue of having 5 different defensive cooldowns for a pure DPS class as opposed to, say, 2 defensive cooldowns with a shorter cd timer?"

 

It seems completely superfluous to me to have 5 slightly different utility abilities that all fill essentially the exact same niche.

 

Also, please understand that this isn't about what I, personally, can or cannot do. This is a question about what is ideal game design. I submit that this kind of ability bloat is a result of developers who can't or won't make choices about which abilities are really necessary. It isn't beneficial for players. It's just lazy.

 

There is some ability bloat in all classes, snipers are probably the worst. I agree they could cull some abilities from all classes and make others passive. But the DCDs for Mara’s aren’t that bad, actually they are some of the best in the game and offer a wide range of options for different scenarios. I certainly wouldn’t want to get rid of them unless they are going to make some passive.

I’d prefer they remove a few utility and dps abilities to reduce the amount of space on the task bar, which makes keybinding a little easier for people with small hands

[TrixxieTriss]

Even if this were true (it isn’t) I don’t think it’s good design to give pure dps classes 5 or 6 different defensive skills that all work on different types of attacks. That’s just silly. These should be emergency buttons to press if you mess up a nasty mechanic or there is a burst of unavoidable damage. There is no good reason to force players to analyze what kind of damage is happening in these situations and then choose the correct defensive ability from 5-6 different options.

 

You do realise that Mara’s are on the higher scale of class difficulty. They aren’t supposed to be easy to pick up like a Sorc or a Jugg. There is supposed to be some complexity and analysis to the class instead of just having “oh F” I’m in trouble buttons like Sorcs do.

If you find that you aren’t enjoying it because you have to over think what you are doing, then I suggest trying out a Jugg, most of their damage received is mitigated by passives and armor.

Edited December 20, 2017 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

Trust me, once you hit max level and start doing group stuff like Ops and FPs, you'll wish you had more DCDs. Just wait until you see all the damage you can potentially eat as a melee dps in a raid, and you'll be flipping those DCDs on cooldown just to maintain uptime on the boss, getting an extra attack or two before you have to move off because of AOE raid damage.

 

Don’t forget pvp, when those DCDs are needed against all the different classes we have in the game. Half the time I wish they would come of CD sooner, but that’s part of the challenge with the class. Knowing when and against who you need to use those DCDs on is part of the fun. Someone who masters the class will know exactly when and how to apply those DCDs.

[TrixxieTriss]

but take a second look for me real quick.

 

Cloak of Pain is awesome. I love it and wish more classes had access to something similar.

 

Obfuscate can't be used on Ops Bosses, drops M/R acc by 90%... and lets be honest... thats pretty much **** in Ops anyways. Only boss I can think of that this'd be nice on is Ops Chief.

 

Camo is your Threat Drop, Self Cleanse, Damage Boost, & CC Immunity for 2/3 specs... Something has to change here. Thats too much on One Button. (Also, is our threat drop broken or something? When I need it to work it doesn't)

 

Undying Rage is great targeted immunity... on a 3 minute CD. I'd honestly prefer a minute & a half cd 50% DR ability, please & thanks.

 

 

Its nice to have specific cooldowns. I concur. I like knowing which to pop for M/R, which for F/T, and which (if any) for I/E. I'd say there are really only 2 offenders here. Undying Rage which has a too-long CD (look at Merc ST absorb & heal shield) and Saber Ward which is too all around and long cd (3 minutes again for 50% M/R defense & 25% F/T DR?)

 

While we're on the subject, can we ask for better cooldowns?

 

I'd like a 2min CD Ward that lasts for 10 seconds and bumps M/R defense to 100% for 10s with 10% decay every second. Targeted Immunity and moderate sustain on a relatively good CD.

And can we turn Undying Rage into a shorter cooldown, or reduce the DR on it? Maybe give it the Evasive Imperative treatment. CD Reduction while attacked.

 

Camo is really a PvP ability, you don’t really need it in Ops bosses, so the OP can just remove it if they find it distracting 😉

 

Obfuscate is also really only a pvp DCD because it can’t be used on Ops bosses. It can be used to proc viscous throw if you take the right utility. Once again, for pvp as I dont think it works on Ops bosses.

 

So out of the 5 DCDs the OP is complaining about, they only need the 3 they are asking for unless they do pvp, then they will definitely need all 5

Edited December 20, 2017 by TrixxieTriss