Alacrity

[kissingaiur]

You got me there.

 

That said part is, I am working on it heh

 

I'll try harder though. Sorry for the dissertation.

 

Make 3 major bullet points in your argument and write them in one paragraph for each. Condensed, to the point information, is almost always more meaningful than a sea of words. Also majority of people, like me don't have the attention span to read anything past that point. lol

[Morath]

Wait, I dont always agree with him but I love the long replies!! We are smart enough to skim through it if we want the highlights. Besides hottie I think you write more words than anyone else on these forums. Just because its broken into more posts doesnt my make it any less interesting to read.

 

Grim, keep it up for those than cannot keep up maybe just put it into 3 posts in a row lol.

[DavidAtkinson]

The alacrity effecting cooldowns and such is why I said that Carnage can still benefit from some alacrity just like any other spec. All specs benefit from decreased cooldowns, carnage doesn't have any casts though so that's a non-issue for it. The cooldown decreases reaches a cap point where no amount of alacrity will decrease the cooldown any further.

 

 

The thing is, when you have alacrity to the level you suggest, and there is nothing wrong with it if you are putting personal preference and feel first, you are sacrificing a good amount of damage on a fairly constant basis in doing so. Even if we discount the added critical chance [ you wont always crit after all], the added power and crit x on set bonus criticals [and other criticals you may get as well] will far exceed even an extra Ferocity window or two that you may get from extreme levels of alacrity. To be fair though, that extra Ferocity window, or one less second of it coming coming off cooldown, might make a difference in whether u drop an opponent in a close fight.

 

Overall though, in terms of DPS output, the extreme high alacrity build will put out less overall DPS than a more moderate alacrity build with increased levels of power and critical. Personally. I wish it wasn't that way, as I personally much prefer a high alacrity build feel wise, and is one of the large reasons I am upset about the change to Carnage because it's killed that playstyle for me. Given the DPS loss this change [5.6] has caused the spec which resulted in about an 800 DPS loss, I don't really want to sacrifice more DPS by continuing to use a high alacrity build even if I prefer the feel of it.

 

 

Caveat being, there is no accounting for taste, and what we are trying to get out of our experience is different for everyone, so there can't be a one size fits all anyways.

 

I play fury with 1900 alacrity and I don't quite agree with your post. I am always top 3 damage dealer in warzones

 

High alacrity with new augments means more power and big fast enough enough hits and execution of rotation to deal very high amount of damage.

 

With 750 alacrity the hits from raging burst burst and furious strike were bigger, but I was slow and hell and many many times in arena I lacked that 1.5 seconds needed to finish of a guy that eventually escaped.

Edited December 15, 2017 by DavidAtkinson

[MachoLL]

@WayOfTheWarriorx Now I didn't actually read your entire post, it's a bit long. But I think the TL;DR is to have a more modest alacrity (~703)? With the Mara passives exactly how much lower than that can I go? Personally I always preferred lower alacrity anyway, as the spec already have me doing enough rapid button mashing.

 

@DavidAtkinson Top 3 dps isn't really that impressive, even with no alacrity I can do that most of the time (if I am trying to do dps). I appreciate the advice, but I am not sure what point you're trying to make by saying you can top 3 dps.

[DavidAtkinson]

@WayOfTheWarriorx Now I didn't actually read your entire post, it's a bit long. But I think the TL;DR is to have a more modest alacrity (~703)? With the Mara passives exactly how much lower than that can I go? Personally I always preferred lower alacrity anyway, as the spec already have me doing enough rapid button mashing.

 

@DavidAtkinson Top 3 dps isn't really that impressive, even with no alacrity I can do that most of the time (if I am trying to do dps). I appreciate the advice, but I am not sure what point you're trying to make by saying you can top 3 dps.

 

means you can finish off someone quite fast because your execution of abilities will be faster.

 

Point here is that... unless you don't try it out for yourself there is no point talking about it. I've played lots of combos and the high alacrity one is the best for me, but maybe not for you so...

[MachoLL]

means you can finish off someone quite fast because your execution of abilities will be faster.

 

Point here is that... unless you don't try it out for yourself there is no point talking about it. I've played lots of combos and the high alacrity one is the best for me, but maybe not for you so...

 

There is a point in talking about it though, I made this post to hear other peoples opinions and learn some of the math behind it. So that I could eventually formulate my own opinion on it. I don't have the comms (or w/e they are called), nor the credits for it to be reasonable for me to try both low and high alacrity setups. And I didn't mean any disrespect, I just couldn't see why you needed to mention that you can top dps or w/e. You coulda just said that it was your opinion. Either way I am not looking to debate, I am looking for advice (there is already enough debating going on in this thread anyway).

[kissingaiur]

@WayOfTheWarriorx Now I didn't actually read your entire post, it's a bit long. But I think the TL;DR is to have a more modest alacrity (~703)? With the Mara passives exactly how much lower than that can I go? Personally I always preferred lower alacrity anyway, as the spec already have me doing enough rapid button mashing.

 

I actually run with a Carnage Marauder in group ranked, Lacirtcele, he runs the low end of Alacrity's GCD which is: 430+

 

He mentions: 1 248 enhancement and 2 augments to reach this amount (when min/maxing)

Edited December 15, 2017 by kissingaiur

[MachoLL]

I actually run with a Carnage Marauder in group ranked, Lacirtcele, he runs the low end of Alacrity's GCD which is: 430+

 

He mentions: 1 248 enhancement and 2 augments to reach this amount (when min/maxing)

 

I see, thanks.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I play fury with 1900 alacrity and I don't quite agree with your post. I am always top 3 damage dealer in warzones

 

High alacrity with new augments means more power and big fast enough enough hits and execution of rotation to deal very high amount of damage.

 

With 750 alacrity the hits from raging burst burst and furious strike were bigger, but I was slow and hell and many many times in arena I lacked that 1.5 seconds needed to finish of a guy that eventually escaped.

 

I mentioned it in one the last few posts that it's a more viable option for Fury because they have better uptime in PVP due to their greater mobility and their anti-cc passives which allow for less uptime break effects. I also mentioned that, while over all uptime is less PVP than under ideal circumstances for most specs, that the extra alacrity could make for the difference in a very close fight due to cooldown decrease.

 

The original response was more geared towards Carnage as the OP was asking for Carnage and deception mainly. Carnage simply doesn't benefit from such extreme amounts of alacrity anymore and has a good deal added to their stats passively due to stance bonus as well as berserk effect.

 

Fury is in a much better place than Carnage currently, it's greater uptime makes use of such extreme Alacrity builds more effectual as the benefits of alacrity are seen to a greater degree the more uptime one has and it's value decreases accordingly the less uptime had. - Additionally, everyone is different and different people have different playstyles within "rotational" norms, we all a little flair to the way we play a spec, and personal enjoyment while not necessarily having an advantage may enter into the how we decide to build our character. If you find you perform better using a certain build more than another than that's the way to go regardless of what anyone else thinks of a given build.

Edited December 15, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Wait, I dont always agree with him but I love the long replies!! We are smart enough to skim through it if we want the highlights. Besides hottie I think you write more words than anyone else on these forums. Just because its broken into more posts doesnt my make it any less interesting to read.

 

Grim, keep it up for those than cannot keep up maybe just put it into 3 posts in a row lol.

 

LOL That someone still finds your posts worthwhile even when they may disagree with some of your points is a really nice thing to hear. I appreciate the sentiment. - Hottie isn't wrong in the respect that I do tend to be long winded in posting and I know it. I personally take a similar view in regard to reading posts, I don't necessarily mind a long post especially if it's on a subject I'm interest in. Doesn't matter how much you think you know, how much experience you have, no matter what numbers you put up there is always more to learn, you can always get better, and sometimes someone else might have an insight that you simply never considered before or thought of. I do "the skim" as well if it's very long and varies in points, to focus on parts of particular interested if not all of it seems to pertain to me or my interest.

 

Wherein you are responding to someone with a different view to your own [ of course respectfully as is appropriate], I feel you should support your disagreement or alternate view with sound reasoning. I don't like not giving reasons for my views, especially wherein the reasons may very well effect game play in my view. I would prefer, however to find a better even ground because there isn't much point in writing up a very precise post if no one will ever read what you say because they are turned off length [My appaling grammar doesnt help]. I'm in dire need of Hooked on Phonics. People tend not to like long posts, I guess because I don't mind them if the subject matters to me that sort of effects the way I respond or write up a post. Also, I've played Carnage since 1.x so I'm really passionate about it, unlike most players I don't really play alts so with regard to the game, I've put all my eggs in one basket.

 

This has been a pretty respectfull back and forth in this string even with disagreeing view points. I wish all strings were like that! I'd like to find a middle ground so as to make for better interactions for everyone involved. We PVPers can be same salty mofos after all!!

Edited December 15, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Evolixe]

LOL That someone still finds your posts worthwhile even when they may disagree with some of your points is a really nice thing to hear. I appreciate the sentiment. - Hottie isn't wrong in the respect that I do tend to be long winded in posting and I know it. I personally take a similar view in regard to reading posts, I don't necessarily mind a long post especially if it's on a subject I'm interest in. Doesn't matter how much you think you know, how much experience you have, no matter what numbers you put up there is always more to learn, you can always get better, and sometimes someone else might have an insight that you simply never considered before or thought of. I do "the skim" as well if it's very long and varies in points, to focus on parts of particular interested if not all of it seems to pertain to me or my interest.

 

Wherein you are responding to someone with a different view to your own [ of course respectfully as is appropriate], I feel you should support your disagreement or alternate view with sound reasoning. I don't like not giving reasons for my views, especially wherein the reasons may very well effect game play in my view. I would prefer, however to find a better even ground because there isn't much point in writing up a very precise post if no one will ever read what you say because they are turned off length [My appaling grammar doesnt help]. I'm in dire need of Hooked on Phonics. People tend not to like long posts, I guess because I don't mind them if the subject matters to me that sort of effects the way I respond or write up a post. Also, I've played Carnage since 1.x so I'm really passionate about it, unlike most players I don't really play alts so with regard to the game, I've put all my eggs in one basket.

 

This has been a pretty respectfull back and forth in this string even with disagreeing view points. I wish all strings were like that! I'd like to find a middle ground so as to make for better interactions for everyone involved. We PVPers can be same salty mofos after all!!

 

Summing it down:

 

LOL That someone still finds your posts worthwhile even when they may disagree with your points is really nice to hear. Hottie isn't wrong in the respect that I do tend to be long winded in posting and I know it.

I personally take a similar view in regard to reading posts, I don't necessarily mind a long post especially if it's on a subject I'm interest in.

 

Wherein you are responding to someone with a different view to your own [ of course respectfully as is appropriate], I feel you should support your disagreement or alternate view with sound reasoning. People tend not to like long posts anyway.

Also, I've played Carnage since 1.x so I'm really passionate about it, unlike most players I don't really play alts so with regard to the game, I've put all my eggs in one basket.

 

This has been a pretty respectfull back and forth in this string even with disagreeing view points. I wish all strings were like that! I'd like to find a middle ground so as to make for better interactions for everyone involved. We PVPers can be same salty mofos after all!!

 

Keep working on it. Red is really excessive information

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Summing it down:

 

LOL That someone still finds your posts worthwhile even when they may disagree with your points is really nice to hear. Hottie isn't wrong in the respect that I do tend to be long winded in posting and I know it.

I personally take a similar view in regard to reading posts, I don't necessarily mind a long post especially if it's on a subject I'm interest in.

 

Wherein you are responding to someone with a different view to your own [ of course respectfully as is appropriate], I feel you should support your disagreement or alternate view with sound reasoning. People tend not to like long posts anyway.

Also, I've played Carnage since 1.x so I'm really passionate about it, unlike most players I don't really play alts so with regard to the game, I've put all my eggs in one basket.

 

This has been a pretty respectfull back and forth in this string even with disagreeing view points. I wish all strings were like that! I'd like to find a middle ground so as to make for better interactions for everyone involved. We PVPers can be same salty mofos after all!!

 

Keep working on it. Red is really excessive information

 

You must be really bored. - Not even an E for effort?

[Evolixe]

You must be really bored. - Not even an E for effort?

 

It's still on the long side tbh lol.

 

I don't think anyone doesn't appreciate your opinion.. but all this excess information doesn't do your posts any justice.

And it wasn't that much effort

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

It's still on the long side tbh lol.

 

I don't think anyone doesn't appreciate your opinion.. but all this excess information doesn't do your posts any justice.

And it wasn't that much effort

 

Meanie

 

[One word!! Errr....sort of.]

Edited December 16, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[DavidAtkinson]

I mentioned it in one the last few posts that it's a more viable option for Fury because they have better uptime in PVP due to their greater mobility and their anti-cc passives which allow for less uptime break effects. I also mentioned that, while over all uptime is less PVP than under ideal circumstances for most specs, that the extra alacrity could make for the difference in a very close fight due to cooldown decrease.

 

The original response was more geared towards Carnage as the OP was asking for Carnage and deception mainly. Carnage simply doesn't benefit from such extreme amounts of alacrity anymore and has a good deal added to their stats passively due to stance bonus as well as berserk effect.

 

Fury is in a much better place than Carnage currently, it's greater uptime makes use of such extreme Alacrity builds more effectual as the benefits of alacrity are seen to a greater degree the more uptime one has and it's value decreases accordingly the less uptime had. - Additionally, everyone is different and different people have different playstyles within "rotational" norms, we all a little flair to the way we play a spec, and personal enjoyment while not necessarily having an advantage may enter into the how we decide to build our character. If you find you perform better using a certain build more than another than that's the way to go regardless of what anyone else thinks of a given build.

 

Yes, mainly the last sentence of my post is the main reason why I decided to go with as much alacrity as possible around 1900.

 

I need that 1.5 seconds because it's very vital for my style of play.

 

Also, alacrity works very well for DoT specs like Hatred and Annihilation.

 

Annihilation is very effective with high alacrity because I can keep up my DoT spreads for a long time. Same with Hatred.

 

Oddly, Hatred with high alacrity was more viable than deception for me.

 

And speaking of CARNAGE, your favorite class, I still think that it isn't as bad as you say because now that I am not pressured to not waste the small 3 seconds window the spec is much more easier to play. I feels like a fast paced fury sometimes.

 

The fact that it's easier might be the main reason you hate it now I think.

 

What I hate about fury is the fact that the rotation is not very flowing and weird, but easy... High alacrity fixes the clunky rotation and makes it more flowing.

Edited December 16, 2017 by DavidAtkinson

[Morath]

I still like those long posts but having said that I appreciate the effort to improve. Also, he may not like to hear this but I think Evolixe has also improved his posts. Maybe its just me but they seem a bit less in your face and easier to accept and try out what he says. In the past, honestly I just skipped them, but now appreciate them more.

 

Don't worry you still give a sufficient amount of black eyes, maybe you have just lessened them from always two to one with an occasional bloody nose mixed in for good measure lol...

Edited December 16, 2017 by Morath

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Yes, mainly the last sentence of my post is the main reason why I decided to go with as much alacrity as possible around 1900.

 

I need that 1.5 seconds because it's very vital for my style of play.

 

Also, alacrity works very well for DoT specs like Hatred and Annihilation.

 

Annihilation is very effective with high alacrity because I can keep up my DoT spreads for a long time. Same with Hatred.

 

Oddly, Hatred with high alacrity was more viable than deception for me.

 

And speaking of CARNAGE, your favorite class, I still think that it isn't as bad as you say because now that I am not pressured to not waste the small 3 seconds window the spec is much more easier to play. I feels like a fast paced fury sometimes.

 

The fact that it's easier might be the main reason you hate it now I think.

 

What I hate about fury is the fact that the rotation is not very flowing and weird, but easy... High alacrity fixes the clunky rotation and makes it more flowing.

 

Yeah, I can see the value of alacrity for the dots, dot's don't require uptime, plus it makes em tick faster which can certainly be of great value.

 

Regarding Carnage - I know some people like the change, and honestly, I'm glad for those that do, if they're having more fun with it this way, than more power to em. - I don't deny that the change certainly makes getting attacks into the window easier, you'd have a to be a blind monkey not to see that, and that in and of itself is of value of course. Why I don't like it is because, the 3/2 combo of attacks in the Ferocity window is exactly what you would have ended up with before the change if you missed the the 4 attack clipped into the Beserk window and if you were quite fast enough to get the the third attack into the non-beserk window, it was a tight fit. So for those who had some trouble getting those two attacks in, this change really changes nothing for them because they are getting the same amount of attacks into their windows now as they were than, the only difference being now they have 10 seconds to do it instead of three seconds! So that's a clear win for them! For those who pushed the envelop with Carnage [and this isn't elitest crap, I mean those who really cared about Carnage and loved to push it to it's extremes, this change represents a mandated loss for them. I'm not gonna say I was always able to get that 4th attack into the beserk window, maybe half the time, maybe.

 

My thoughts now on it are this. What they could have very easily done, and it would have made both schools of Carnage players happy, is they should have made the stack based Carnage a utility option. So those who wanted some more reliability at the cost of some higher end DPS potential, they could go stack based, and for those who preferred the long time hallmark style of Carnage [High risk/ high reward] could continue to play the less reliably but potentially stronger version.

 

What gauls me about the change is that the reasoning behind it was that they wanted to remove clipping, and they didn't even remove clipping at all. You can still clip, you just have the attack amount limitation. If clipping was the reason for the change as they stated, they could have removed the possibility to clip and left the spec alone otherwise and thereby not have mandated such an extreme style change and build change and not stripped carnage of 800 DPS high end potential, which effects both PVP and PVE even more so. The higher alacrity build some people are still using surely makes the change seem less to them because they are still moving around fast, but, the reality is, and I wish it wasn't so because I much preferred the higher alacrity build style and feel, that the high alacrity build is a DPS loss for Carnage now in PVP. Those extreme higher alacrity builds, even if they pull and extra GCD out of it, doesn't make up for the constant damage loss coming from the lack of burst top numbers, which you are guaranteed to get fairly regularly due to the set bonus critical alone, to say nothing about the more critical and critical X from a higher critical build and the added bonus damage constant from higher levels of power. Of course the cooldown modifiers from alacrity also play into things and in that respect I certainly still advocate having a decent amount of alacrity.

 

I admit, I did prefer the spec having a greater emphasis on skill, I liked the potential benefits from working the spec, I can't deny that. But to me, that was an intricate part of what made Carnage so different and special. Everyone knew Carnage wasn't really like most other specs, it really had a personality and playstyle all it's own.

With Regard to Fury, yeah, I've tried it, it moves like a handicapped slug hehe, slow as hell, so I can totally see the enjoyment some people would get from the spec by off setting that with high amounts of Alacrity. I'm not judging anyone, I'm just talking shop and to a lesser degree where my preferences lay.

Edited December 17, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[funnypat]

You could have summed that all up by:

 

"I get it, they wanted to fix clipping, you still can. It was a bug that we all used to perform better, bioware took forever to fix it so we got used to it and I don't like that workaround - and fury feels too slow"

Edited December 17, 2017 by funnypat