Star Wars: The ProTorp Wars

[SeCKSEgai]

Star Wars: The ProTorp Wars

 

 

With less than 4 days before the sub expires, I figured I should submit this before I lose access.

 

 

So, after waiting forever and a day (over 2 years) for a change to GSF, we finally got some – and yet we still have a bug where we need to verify components are actually active before hitting the queue.

 

Now, I've definitely seen quite a bit of frustration, so I wanted to provide some assistance to those having trouble adjusting to the changes, as the dynamic has changed dramatically.

 

The Meta Shift

 

For too long we've had bomber spam or gunship walls or even the dreaded gunship bomberball dominate the mindset. However, the recent changes have severely weakened their effectiveness.

 

Gunship wall – slightly increased cooldown on ion and the loss of the reduced acc penalty on tracking have made this staple a lot less effective as pilots need to be a lot more centered on shots than they needed to be in the past. With strikes significantly upgraded, they can still survive a hit and deliver a likely deadly payload.

 

Bomber Spam – while still reliable against weaker teams/pilots, the “christmas tree” has become far less daunting now that there are mine clearing tools beyond the ion rail with reasonable cooldowns.

 

Gunship Bomberball – generally deployed by synchronized teams to minimize casualties and maximize kill counts, these pilots tend to hate dying. With the destructive power of protorps and engine debuffs making everyone a lot easier to kill, it's a lot safer to be on more mobile platforms.

 

Projectiles Gone Wild

 

Where once certain ship types could run effectively two missile breaks, distortion field is now only effective as a temporary lock disrupt. With reduced lock on and reload times practically across the board – projectiles have gone from limited selective use (pods/clusters) to the primary weapon of ship destruction.

 

Essentially, once a ship has utilized its missile break, there is now a window of complete vulnerability for anyone who can manage a lock on that ship.

 

Manually breaking a lock is a lot harder than it used to be –

You're a lot more likely to have multiple ships locking simultaneously, limiting or eliminating the ability to completely break the targeting arc, range or terrain.

 

You are actually vulnerable to locks from as far as 11500m away, making it even more difficult to elude your attackers.

 

It's harder to break the firing arc (to manually break the lock on) the farther out you are.

 

Engine debuffs have reduced cooldowns – making them a lot more effective and far more dangerous. With engine-based missile breaks being the only reliable means of evading a fired projectile, disabling that is often all that it takes for someone to land a killing torpedo.

 

How Does One Adjust?

 

Now that we've had some time in the new system, I think it's fairly safe to say that ace level scout pilots are able to transition to the new dynamic far easier than bomber or gunship specific pilots. By default, to perform as well as we did in scouts we had to familiarize ourselves with so many factors, and with plenty of dogfighting experience, so adjusting to the torpedo wars wasn't too far a stretch. With that said, scouts are essentially one shot by an engine debuff and torpedo, so said pilots have to be constantly aware of ships with those loadouts and mind the ranges.

 

As a scout, you're essentially engineered for combat below 5k range, which also opens you up to every engine debuff available.

 

Without support, you're very likely to die quickly now that projectiles are the norm. You have to truly utilize the surroundings, and its now extremely difficult to survive diving into a sea of red.

 

As a bomber pilot, unless you're in a deci/sledge, you are now cannon fodder for torpedoes. And, since you're a flying brick, you won't be able to break locks manually short of terrain (like a sat). While still extremely useful, they're now extremely reliant on escorts.

 

As a gunship pilot, you lose a missile break if you relied on DF and feedback shield is a lot less effective when death comes by protorp. Since they now require one to be far more accurate than before, unless you've got teammates screening for you you're more likely to end up a liability. Strikes are no longer fodder for the railguns and can still survive a big hit while delivering that torpedo of death.

 

Strike pilots, of course, got the best deal since before they were flying practically handicapped all the time - now buffs across the board to make them competitive.

 

What can I do in these Torpedo Wars?

 

Overall, team strength (pilot skill) will still reliably dictate the victor. A single ace level pilot can now be brought down reliably through use of engine debuffs and projectiles, helping to really bridge the skill gap. When I first started, projectiles weren't particularly reliable for netting kills on their own so for people less skilled and less familiar with the blaster types, it was quite the struggle for a new player to kill consistently. Now, all a player has to do is learn how to lock on with a torpedo.

 

So, in order to deal with this new dynamic, a pilot must increase his or her overall awareness.

 

Gunships may still be effective up to 15000m, but the real danger zone starts at around 11500, torpedo locking range (upgraded). Against a gunship, one could gamble on their opponents' ability to aim and fly in headfirst once they crossed that 15k. Against a torpedo lock, that avenue of attack is closed off completely. Once that torpedo launches, you're forced to burn the engine break - leaving you vulnerable to the next torpedo/projectile for several seconds.

 

Simply put, You have to engage and disengage based on the projectiles, namely the torpedo. If you hide behind terrain, you can force attackers into ambushes, but if other targets (teammates) present themselves not only are you hanging them out to dry, but the opponent is never forced to engage you or a potential deathtrap (unless they just really want to kill you).

 

Also, relying on terrain alone is moot if the opponent brings superior firepower (numbers/skill) .

 

One must familiarize him/herself with all the tools of the "new" trade

 

Emp Missiles used to be practically harmless, but now can potentially kill you with its damage bypassing shields and going straight to the hull. The biggest danger is when they've been upgraded to disable engine breaks, leaving you open to that torpedo if it doesn't kill you by itself.

 

Proton Torpedoes - While they've always hit hard, the long lock and reload times kept from ever seeing much use before. With those both reduced, they're now the primary weapon of death. As the damage bypasses shields, having extra health or even utilizing the self repair copilots can save you where the newly added dot can kill.

 

EMP Burst - maxing out at about 5k when upgraded, this rarely saw use because of the extensive cooldown. Now that's been adjusted, this tool is a lot more potent. If the burst bypassing your shield doesn't kill you, the engine debuff upgrade probably will set you up for it.

 

Remote Slicing - the lengthy cooldown and the weakness of projectiles past kept this from being effective enough to be worthwhile. Now, it can reliably set up kills provided you're in a position to activate it (5k or less) and can maintain the lock long enough to fire.

 

NOTE - 5k and below is a very dangerous place to engage targets facing you, and a lucky (or well-timed) emp blast can kill you even if they aren't. 11500 and below is really the new dangerzone but that doesn't mean you can ignore the 15k range of gunships either.

 

Final Thoughts

 

While I'm glad the gunship walls of old are all but a memory, it doesn't mean that the novelty of torpedo wars doesn't go stale either. Newer pilots are in a much better position now, but are still likely to become fodder for more experienced pilots - but now even the greenest of pilots with a basic protorp is dangerous enough to not be ignored. Where once you'd only see mainly 3 ship types we're finally seeing more variety. Just last night I was facing a 4-5 man group that utilized different ship types with some primarily debuffing just to setup teammates to kill.

 

However, the queue had also been getting consistently slower...

Edited October 24, 2017 by SeCKSEgai

[ALaggyGrunt]

EMP missiles have always splashed damage straight through shields and damage reduction. In old GSF, I had done over 100k damage in one match with EMP missile in a Pike at B in Mesas because of the sheer amount of bomber spam there. Lock missile on turret/drone, fire repeat. EMP missiles didn't have the 3-splash-target limitation of ion railgun, so it cleared a lot of things out. From there, it was a choice between locking out charged plating (shields) and locking out new hyperspace beacons (engines).

[HrRav]

With that said, scouts are essentially one shot by an engine debuff and torpedo, so said pilots have to be constantly aware of ships with those loadouts and mind the ranges. As a scout, you're essentially engineered for combat below 5k range, which also opens you up to every engine debuff available. Without support, you're very likely to die quickly now that projectiles are the norm. You have to truly utilize the surroundings, and its now extremely difficult to survive diving into a sea of red.

 

Essentially, scouts are now fast, hit-and-run ships. Isn't that what they should be?

 

As a bomber pilot, unless you're in a deci/sledge, you are now cannon fodder for torpedoes. And, since you're a flying brick, you won't be able to break locks manually short of terrain (like a sat). While still extremely useful, they're now extremely reliant on escorts.

 

Useful, but slow and easy targets, needs protection by allies. Again, isn't that what they should be?

 

As a gunship pilot, you lose a missile break if you relied on DF and feedback shield is a lot less effective when death comes by protorp. Since they now require one to be far more accurate than before, unless you've got teammates screening for you you're more likely to end up a liability. Strikes are no longer fodder for the railguns and can still survive a big hit while delivering that torpedo of death.

 

Still deadly, but harder to play and needs protection by allies. Seems fine to me.

 

To summarise, yes, missiles are a more serious threat now and needs to be taken as seriously as a railgun in the hands of a reasonably skilled pilot. However, keep in mind that strikes are equally vulnerable for missiles. Besides, I have noticed that the best pilots have become harder to lock a missile on compared to right after 5.5 so people are adapting.

 

I would say that Bioware actually managed to rebalance the game in a really good way, making almost all ship types worth playing.

Edited October 24, 2017 by HrRav

[SeCKSEgai]

EMP missiles have always splashed damage straight through shields and damage reduction. In old GSF, I had done over 100k damage in one match with EMP missile in a Pike at B in Mesas because of the sheer amount of bomber spam there. Lock missile on turret/drone, fire repeat. EMP missiles didn't have the 3-splash-target limitation of ion railgun, so it cleared a lot of things out. From there, it was a choice between locking out charged plating (shields) and locking out new hyperspace beacons (engines).

 

Yeah - but two things - you rarely saw emp missile, and rarely saw a strike fielded by an experienced pilot. Note that you had to utilizie a pike and exploit the reload mechanism to bypass the reload delay to make it usable.

[Verain]

EMP missile back then had a lot of issues. It had a really long lockon (old concussion's lock time), it was bugged to deal half damage to the primary target if it was a player (it treated the primary target as an aoe target, and if a player, would halve the damage- right now it has the opposite bug, where it treats the aoe player targets as if they were primary, and deals full damage to them), and the damage wasn't good anyway. It also had a brutally ludicrous cooldown and slow flight speed (it still has a slow flight speed, which alone is fine), which made it basically never worth using except on a target that had totally exhausted its breaks.

 

EMP missile has always ignored both shields and armor, however, and its big use was to hit a stationary thing, such as a drone, to wipe out the entire node's defenses for a bit, and to deal execute damage to players that were circling the node with basically no health. This was usually unrewarding, because the long lockon and medium range basically meant that you had to either close in to the furball of drones and mines, or hold back at a distance that was predictable and made you vulnerable enough to take serious damage, if not die.

[SeCKSEgai]

Essentially, scouts are now fast, hit-and-run ships. Isn't that what they should be?

 

 

 

Useful, but slow and easy targets, needs protection by allies. Again, isn't that what they should be?

 

 

 

Still deadly, but harder to play and needs protection by allies. Seems fine to me.

 

To summarise, yes, missiles are a more serious threat now and needs to be taken as seriously as a railgun in the hands of a reasonably skilled pilot. However, keep in mind that strikes are equally vulnerable for missiles. Besides, I have noticed that the best pilots have become harder to lock a missile on compared to right after 5.5 so people are adapting.

 

I would say that Bioware actually managed to rebalance the game in a really good way, making almost all ship types worth playing.

 

Scouts don't have counterplay against the torpedo short of having to constantly focus on evading over actually attacking - it's more a liability to fly now since by the time they get into range to do what they do they've likely already been hit with an engine debuff and locked on. They can't hit and run if they are really only just running. And emp based scout can still provide plenty of utility as they're more for the debuff. It used to be one could hit and run very effectively in scouts, scoring in excess of 30+ kills depending on opponents. That potential is all but gone now. Most pilots you'd normally see in stings and flashfires are far more likely to be in clarions/imperiums or pikes/quells for that very reason.

 

Bomber spam losing effectiveness was not a bad thing..... but just because one flies a bomber doesn't mean they can't be provided additional information to adapt to the changes or understand why they're suddenly a lot less effective.

 

Gunships used to be a mainstay - now are far more liability - just like with the bombers the point was to express how dramatic the changes hit them. I'm not a fan of the gunship most of the time but I've fielded them for over 20+ kills so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with them. But pilots who relied heavily on their gunship are still entitled to an explanation as to what changed for them. On my server, the veteran pilots knew that just by flying a gunship they tended to become a priority target for me, particularly if they hit with me ion. But the change isn't a simple adjustment - for people who flew gunships exclusively now have major adjustments to make, including flying other ships.

 

Projectiles have taken over - those of us who are harder to lock on now were a lot harder to kill before the changes were implemented as most were too clunky to use reliably and the primary projectile threat was only clusters. Proton Torpedoes are essentially the new railgun - reduced range from 15000 to 11.5 but far easier to aim and not requiring pinpoint precision or an accuracy buff co-pilot. Not only that, but with engine debuffs so prevalent now - unlike railgun shots which had to vy against evasion on top of tracking penalties - you can guarantee projectiles land.

 

While they did make strikes a lot more competitive - the real power now is currently based on what ordinance a ship type can deliver. Combat now is centralized around the proton torpedo almost exclusively now, it's gotten that strong. If I pike can't finish you with its emp missiles (or cluster spam) , the incoming proton torpedo will. If a clariion has its remote slicing available you're very likely to be hit by it and a torpedo soon after. If you're a bomber you're going to eat torpedoes period. If you're a gunship, you're far more likely to die to a torpedo. If you're in any ship you're more likely to die to a torpedo......

 

I'd say that's less about actual balance and more about pilots simply adapting to the new meta. The problem is not everyone is adapting. And at least on my server, we're still bleeding pilots as the queue times get longer and longer.

[caederon]

But pilots who relied heavily on their gunship are still entitled to an explanation as to what changed for them.

What explanation is needed beyond the patch notes and some understanding of the game mechanics?

 

What entitlement are people apparently owed in your outlook?

 

People have been complaining about Gunships for years, rightly or wrongly. They have always been the number one "NERF _____" target.

 

What changed is the rest of the hangar got better.

 

I can still land 100k damage in a Gunship, can still score plenty of assists or kills (though I tend to focus more on the former than the latter). They are not removed from the meta. It's harder to deal with the additional threats flying around, but in no way have they been written out of the game.

 

On my server, the veteran pilots knew that just by flying a gunship they tended to become a priority target for me, particularly if they hit with me ion. But the change isn't a simple adjustment - for people who flew gunships exclusively now have major adjustments to make, including flying other ships.

Oh no!

 

What a travesty that a player might need to become more well-rounded to succeed, or choose the appropriate ship for the situation rather than having no need to put much thought into it.

 

you can guarantee projectiles land.

... in one particular edge case.

 

Otherwise, they are not a guaranteed hit. You can literally outrun a PT until you get Power Dive off cooldown, in some situations. I've done it more than once.

 

Yes, Torpedoes and Missiles are good now! This is a good thing. This entire class of weapons was largely useless and trivially dealt with before now. It is now a broader game state, with more choices that have meaning. This is good.

 

While they did make strikes a lot more competitive - the real power now is currently based on what ordinance a ship type can deliver.

It always has been.

 

BLC previously was the most reliable source of Armor Ignoring damage as a Primary Weapon, so everyone used it and took the platform on which it was mounted by default. Now, there are viable alternative choices, so the new availability of ordnance influences which ships you take.

 

Previously, a great many ships had only substandard or bad ordnance to choose from. Now they have good choices. This is an improvement.

 

Combat now is centralized around the proton torpedo almost exclusively now, it's gotten that strong.

I run EMP Missile on my T3F, currently. It's very strong, even if soon it will be less so. It will probably remain a viable choice.

 

I run Concussion Missiles on many of my T1F builds. Their greater firing arc is a significant asset in combat vs. more mobile targets, they do solid damage, have a good snare, and the T1F gets plenty of firepower from its Primary Weapon choices. HLC is great. RFL is very good.

 

Though I currently run PT/Conc on my T2F builds, there are many Secondary combinations that make plenty of sense on that ship.

 

PT isn't good enough to make the T2G good, even with its extra range.

 

Hydro Spanner on a Strike plus some reasonably careful flying allows you to soak a PT hit and keep on going. HS and Repair Probes on the T3F make you even more resilient.

 

Power Dive on Scouts is plenty good. I think the T2S particularly suffers more from the abundance of Shield Piercing flying around than anything. They can still perform very well, and could stand some small buffs in a few ways, but generally having them be on the level of other ships instead of markedly superior is a good thing.

 

 

I'd say that's less about actual balance and more about pilots simply adapting to the new meta. The problem is not everyone is adapting. And at least on my server, we're still bleeding pilots as the queue times get longer and longer.

I'd say you're wrong with your first statement, correct with the second, and misguided on the reasoning behind the third.

 

1. Yep, people have to adapt... but the game balance is much improved and significant in effecting all players.
   
2. They're not adapting because... why?
   Is it impossible? Is there a lack of information on the new meta (oh,
   ) Is it because they don't care to try, or haven't bothered to learn? This is a player issue, not a game issue.
   
3. The Skill Gap between experienced GSF pilots and inexperienced ones is enormous, and there is no middle class.
   

 

There was a middle class two years ago, when people's primary reason for playing GSF was that they liked arcade space shooters and wanted to play SWTOR's take on one. Then the game stagnated for a long time, leaving only the die-hard players and whatever people happened along or accidentally clicked the button in their hangar. Then Conquest started rewarding GSF, bringing Conquest Farmers into the playerbase. Then GSF became a very efficient way to earn CXP while not requiring any real active participation by those seeking their non-GSF reward.

 

You may note that the latter two changes swelled the player base with people who did not actually want to play GSF, they just wanted their rewards for other portions of the game, and had an easy ticket to get them with.

 

What you have ended up with is:

• a small percent of people who know the game well and play well
  
• a small percent of people who want to know the game and play well, and are learning
  
• a whole lot of people who don't care so long as they get their non-GSF points.
  

_

Veterans face a difficult choice... group up in a premade and roll 95% of the opponents they face, most of whom do not care they are being rolled, or solo queue into whatever fate hands you. Or, quit out of frustration.

 

For the quality of games to improve in any large-scale sense, the bottom of the Skill Gap has to rise up and produce competent players who know and can execute basic game tactics. The game right now is mechanically in the best place it has ever been, allowing the most meaningful diversity of choice that it ever has. It needs players who care about playing GSF and not about powering their Crate Generator. As long as we get more people playing Galactic Crate Maker than we do Galactic Starfighter, it's going to be dicey.

 

I have hope that the server mergers will put enough people together in one place who care about GSF for GSF's sake that those of us who want good matches will get them.

 

- Despon

Edited October 24, 2017 by caederon

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Scouts don't have counterplay against the torpedo short of having to constantly focus on evading over actually attacking - it's more a liability to fly now since by the time they get into range to do what they do they've likely already been hit with an engine debuff and locked on. They can't hit and run if they are really only just running. And emp based scout can still provide plenty of utility as they're more for the debuff. It used to be one could hit and run very effectively in scouts, scoring in excess of 30+ kills depending on opponents. That potential is all but gone now. Most pilots you'd normally see in stings and flashfires are far more likely to be in clarions/imperiums or pikes/quells for that very reason.

 

My impression was that Strikes were always meant to be the backbone of teams, essentially the X-Wings of the game with scouts being less prevalent as a glass cannon that were best for quick hit and runs behind enemy lines. If you assume the flavor text of ships is an insight into design intent strikes were definetely meant to be the backbone supported by high risk, high reward scouts flanking enemies and exploiting openings created by strikes to decimate support ships like GS that hung out behind the front lines. Strikes weren't viable as the backbone of a team until 5.5 which left scouts with no role competition and somewhat forced to serve both roles (durable front line dogfighter and hit-and-run infiltrator).

 

I think a lot of the reduced effectiveness of scouts post-5.5 is more a product of people not being used to having to play scouts as scouts and not pseudo strikes as they had for the past two years.

 

I think overall GS and bombers becoming clear support ships is a good thing. It really was crazy that ships that, in any other game, would be a minority used tactically for support were the backbone of teams. It'd be like having medics and snipers be the overwhelming majority of players in a TF2 match, and having that set up be a meta that stood a reasonable chance of winning matches even against teams more evenly distributed class wise.

 

Projectiles have taken over - those of us who are harder to lock on now were a lot harder to kill before the changes were implemented as most were too clunky to use reliably and the primary projectile threat was only clusters. Proton Torpedoes are essentially the new railgun - reduced range from 15000 to 11.5 but far easier to aim and not requiring pinpoint precision or an accuracy buff co-pilot. Not only that, but with engine debuffs so prevalent now - unlike railgun shots which had to vy against evasion on top of tracking penalties - you can guarantee projectiles land.

 

Honestly I think this will be beneficial for railguns in the long run. Missiles were always clearly meant to be a counter to evasion stacking but they never actually worked until now. Now you can still be safe to outright immune to railguns (perhaps even moreso with the accuracy nerf) but be murdered by a torp or attempt to mitigate death by torp (HP armor minor I believe buffs a scout to 1140 HP, just enough to survive a torp hit) at the cost of more likely death by railgun. Which is way better than the the old meta of "no matter what I choose I can ignore everything except clusters... so do I want to very safe from railguns or live dangerously?" If pilots start adapting to torps by stacking extra HP railguns will have an easier time picking them off. My guess is they reduced railgun accuracy so that stacking HP to protect against torps is a more viable scout option by making evasion not so mandatory.

[Verain]

I have more to add to this thread later, but since railgun accuracy is being discussed, I wanted to point this out:

 

1)- Slug railgun gained +5% accuracy to mid and long range. It lost its "accuracy and tracking", which ranges from +3% (for an exactly centered shot) to +8% (for almost every shot you actually make), so you are usually -3% from before, and very very rarely neutral or up to +2% more accurate. This gun has been nerfed against scouts, but by numbers it isn't by that much. IMO it feels like a little bit more, but that could be in my head.

 

2)- Ion railgun did not get an accuracy increase, but maintains its accuracy and tracking. Its ability to hit things is entirely unmodified.

 

3)- Plasma railgun got both the +5% accuracy to mid and long range, AND has a possible accuracy and tracking upgrade (competing with an evasion debuff talent). If you take that accuracy and tracking talent, it is the most accurate railgun, being 5% more accurate than old slug or current ion at most ranges. This gun has been decently buffed against scouts.

 

So I wouldn't broadly say that railguns have gotten less accurate, I would say that slug has gotten less accurate. Since slug is generally the best thing to hit a scout with by effect, this amounts to a nerf- but if you really want to hit scouts, you can now run ion/plasma and have the same or better chance of hitting them as before.

[SeCKSEgai]

@Des - I think you're interpreting my outlook as a lot more negative than it actually is.

 

As far as balance goes, there's no denying that more ships have become viable - but despite all the buffs strikes got, the reality of why they've come to the forefront aren't a result of their direct buffs but the viability of their weapons available. Those weapons are available across the ship types more or less.

 

The reason I don't emphasize balance is that I've seen extensively firsthand just how prevalent the proton torpedo has become. When I think balance I think of pros and cons across the board. Sure, it's definitely better than it has been, I never said it wasn't - but the novelty of projectile spam has already frustrated pilots as I've seen the dialogue, as I've still maintained my willingness to solo queue. When I'm at or near the top of the kill count and the majority of teammates have 1 or no kills despite the changes - I am aware of their frustration as I've seen veterans struggle to adjust.

 

For example - you were initially responding to a response for someone else. Not once did I say gunships were a complete write off - but instead was explaining that for pilots who exclusively ran gunships that the dynamic has changed so dramatically that gunships are far more vulnerable than they've ever been. I lost count of my kill count on gunships long ago, but to pull good numbers now is much more dependent on your team performance than in the past. The damage numbers of old are a lot harder to hit when someone is locking on at 11500m away.

 

I like that pilots need to actually think - but I also never lose sight of the skill gap. I'm still able to generate enough "threat" to get most if not all of a team to chase me across the map - but if pilots like us were plentiful skill gap wouldn't be the issue it's always been. Some players will always plateau on the lower end of the spectrum, just as some people will always stack teams knowing full well when the opposing side lacks the pilots to field worthwhile competition.

 

When I referred to ordinance I meant it in the more literal sense as in projectile. Ships have always essentially been a shell for components. My issue isn't with projectile weapons so much as they've simply traded blc, required close range, an ability to follow, and actual aim and given that power to longer range weapons that are far easier to aim and far more difficult to evade. Again, it's not a tradeoff - but merely a transfer of power. Just like ion spam got old, so does torpedo/missile spam. With the changes I was really hoping to see far better utilization of the different blaster types. I'm glad to see projectiles have finally become effective - I just think they're too effective now.

 

In the movies, we saw proton torpedoes blow up the deathstar but the majority of ship to ship combat was with blasters. While they still have use, they aren't truly the primary weapon.

 

Lastly, the player issue is always going to exist, I'm not in denial of that. Regardless of what resources the community provides, it's up to the player base to find incentive to improve. I do miss the days when we could actually have matches where every pilot was an ace and had to be treated as a major threat regardless of ship type. Plus, it was always nice not having 3+ people targeting you constantly The merges should help quite a bit - but it's the game's populace as a whole that continues to fade.

[SeCKSEgai]

@Gavin

 

I'm in total agreement with strike fighters supposedly being the backbone of the attack force - when I was originally learning my limited understanding at the time lead me to believe that strikes were the "fighters". I don't have issue with scouts playing a secondary role - but more their inability to do their job. I've already blown up plenty of scouts with protorps that nromally would have taken forever and a day to kill outside of using a gunship or scout.

 

And I'd agree that the reduction to tracking accuracy has opened up taking health over evasion on the scouts - except just like verain pointed out the railgun changes aren't across the board.

 

Plasma rail finally stepped out of the shadows. Double torpedoes on a gunship is no longer a "mercy" ship.

[SeCKSEgai]

I have more to add to this thread later, but since railgun accuracy is being discussed, I wanted to point this out:

 

1)- Slug railgun gained +5% accuracy to mid and long range. It lost its "accuracy and tracking", which ranges from +3% (for an exactly centered shot) to +8% (for almost every shot you actually make), so you are usually -3% from before, and very very rarely neutral or up to +2% more accurate. This gun has been nerfed against scouts, but by numbers it isn't by that much. IMO it feels like a little bit more, but that could be in my head.

 

2)- Ion railgun did not get an accuracy increase, but maintains its accuracy and tracking. Its ability to hit things is entirely unmodified.

 

3)- Plasma railgun got both the +5% accuracy to mid and long range, AND has a possible accuracy and tracking upgrade (competing with an evasion debuff talent). If you take that accuracy and tracking talent, it is the most accurate railgun, being 5% more accurate than old slug or current ion at most ranges. This gun has been decently buffed against scouts.

 

So I wouldn't broadly say that railguns have gotten less accurate, I would say that slug has gotten less accurate. Since slug is generally the best thing to hit a scout with by effect, this amounts to a nerf- but if you really want to hit scouts, you can now run ion/plasma and have the same or better chance of hitting them as before.

 

As far as the ion goes - that additional second of cd makes a surprising difference - primarily in utilizing the short burst "tap" to interrupt an opposing gunship charging up. One of the aoe components is broken tho.

 

Plasma has taken over for the slug in terms of overall effectiveness - which isn't too bad but I would have liked more of a tradeoff type situation vs simply nerfing an option enough to make the other choice a better option.

[Verain]

As far as balance goes, there's no denying that more ships have become viable - but despite all the buffs strikes got, the reality of why they've come to the forefront aren't a result of their direct buffs but the viability of their weapons available.

 

That's as true for strikes as it is for every ship. The proton torpedo is ubiquitous in its availability- it is on every strike, one gunship, and every bomber. The gunship, while lacking the fast locking magazine, does have extra range on it. Are we seeing a bunch of protorp bombers? Is the type 2 gunship as common as a battlescout prepatch?

 

The strike buffs included buffs to their components, all of which were terribly lacking before. Lockon weapons were in a terrible state, and so was the strike frame. All of these were addressed.

 

 

Those weapons are available across the ship types more or less.

the novelty of projectile spam has already frustrated pilots as I've seen the dialogue

 

Wait, so these pilots don't like dying to bombers, don't like dying to railguns, don't like dying to scouts, and now don't like dying to strikes? I see a common thread about what they don't like, and it isn't proton torpedo or slug railgun- it's the fact that they are dying to something. I'm still kinda up in the air about whether proton is too effective for its cost, totally fine, or maybe the other missiles need buffs, but I will say that players complaining about dying to stuff is ubiquitous.

 

Just like ion spam got old, so does torpedo/missile spam.

 

It's not about old or tiring, it's about whether the strategy is overrewarding. Ion railgun is still, IMO, a fine railgun. There's plenty of counters to it if you need them, with tradeoffs for those, and the gun itself can still aoe, do good damage to shields, and snare either speed or engine regen. The other ships finally have real roles though- strikes (and all of their components) were wildly undertuned before, and as such were not selected. That's the big thing that changed. Don't underestimate the massive benefit gained by having more baseline engine power and the greater effect in F1, F2, and very importantly, F3- a strike now crosses the map with only a little more investment than a scout, and much less than a gunship (who it was formerly pretty much tied with) or a bomber (who still has to invest heavily in getting where they need to be).

 

I'm glad to see projectiles have finally become effective - I just think they're too effective now.

 

All projectiles? I don't see many ion missiles or concussion missiles, and I have some ideas on this too. Lockon weapons have to be powerful- not as strong as railguns, but powerful- if strikes are to have a job.

 

The merges should help quite a bit - but it's the game's populace as a whole that continues to fade.

 

GSF has always had its fate tied to the greater whole of SWTOR. I saw this first hand when queues on Bastion dried up, not based on Stasie killing the queues (as numerous players promised would happen) but by cheap server transfers leading to raid guilds leaving, and taking their socials, followed by pvp guys leaving, and suddenly there was nobody left. The entirety of GSF dried up because there was always some intersection in the playerbase, and once it was obvious that Bastion was toast, players left in short order in order to keep playing the game. I don't know what SWTOR's numbers are, but it is clear that they are less than at the time GSF launched, and with predictable effects on participation in all areas of the game.

[caederon]

As far as balance goes, there's no denying that more ships have become viable - but despite all the buffs strikes got, the reality of why they've come to the forefront aren't a result of their direct buffs but the viability of their weapons available. Those weapons are available across the ship types more or less.

The buffs to the Strike frame are more significant than you're accounting for.

 

Just to recap from the patch notes:

 

Strike Fighters

Power Pools Adjustments:

• 25% more engine power
  
• 18% more shield power
  
• 10% more blaster power
  
• 5% blaster power regeneration rate
  
• 10% shield regeneration rate
  

Hull Adjustment:

• 5% hull increase
  

Base Evasion Increased:

• 5% evasion increase
  

Blaster Adjustment:

• 15% primary laser range increase (on Strike Fighters only)
  

Blaster Power Management:

• 25% bonus when active (up from 10%)
  
• -10% when other systems are active (up from -5%)
  

Shield Power Management:

• 30% bonus when active (up from 20%)
  
• -15% when other systems are active (up from -10%)
  

Engine Power Management:

• 30% bonus when active (up from 20%)
  
• -15% when other systems are active (up from -10%)
  

_

So, like... that is a lot of stuff. Strikes can fly farther, shoot longer distances, have more shields, have more base Evasion and DR, manage Power to greater effect, and more.

 

Plus they get a Strikes (+T3B) only -10% to Missile Lock speed, if you take the Efficient Targeting Magazine.

 

This is a lot of stuff, and took a class that was junk then really brought it up to speed.

 

Anyway, I think you are seeing endless PT because they are good and they are the 'new toy.' Everyone wants to try them. It also stands out when you're getting hit by them, as opposed to the more invisible process of eating Hull damage from Shield Piercing HLC at greater range, or whatever else doesn't have a bright blue death-orb stalking you slowly across the map.

 

Hopefully there will be a continued effort to take underperforming components and improve them.

 

- Despon

Edited October 24, 2017 by caederon

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I don't have issue with scouts playing a secondary role - but more their inability to do their job. I've already blown up plenty of scouts with protorps that nromally would have taken forever and a day to kill outside of using a gunship or scout.

 

I think a fair bit of the scout deaths is again because they're so used to strikes having no burst DPS and laughable DPS overall. I suspect there was also a fair bit of DField addiction that is proving hard to break. Either way I think the speed with which you're observing torps destroy scouts is what their intended threat potential was unlike what we've had for two years (for the aforementioned reason of being a built in counter to max evasion stacking).

[RickDagles]

The game feels pretty well balanced to me.

 

So far my only (minor) complaints are these:

 

1. Gunship walls are still a bit too strong in Lost Shipyards TDM. Slug railgun is still amazing, it just takes a bit more skill. Coordinated GS teams still eat Strikes and Scouts alive in that map.

 

2. Remote slicing + protorp should have a bit more counterplay available, but I don't think it's gamebreaking. It's kinda a one trick pony, and the Pike/Quell is likely a better ship anyway.

Edited October 25, 2017 by RickDagles

[Ramalina]

I don't have issue with scouts playing a secondary role - but more their inability to do their job.

Scouts can to their jobs.

 

The T1 scout is about where it was before in terms of a LC-Pods hit-and-run type build, and the utility builds based on EMP now work very well, and even the Sensor Beacon utility builds are (very) situationally no longer total crap (missile buff/debuffs, read that fine print. If you think baseline torps are bad . . . ).

 

The T3 scout is now a fairly good all match ship. Tensor is great to start in Dom, and with repairs and EMP missile has the capability for ongoing support. Enough so that clever mid game Tensors to rush reinforcements around the map actually make sense now. You provide mass transit and clear the bomber crud off of the sat when you get there.

 

The T2 scout still works in the three main builds BLC-Cluster, BLC-Pods, and Quads & Pods. At point blank BLCs are a bit buffed, at mid to far they've been nerfed. It raised the skill cap and the skill floor. Aside from that Disto's break got turned from an overly strong one to a fairly weak one, and a class of harmless foodships became about as durable as scouts and their baby teeth finally fell out and a pretty decent set of fangs grew in.

 

There's no question that scouts have to fly defensively now. Mashing the shield button to hit "snooze" on missiles and otherwise ignoring strikes except as free kills will get you killed now. If you're using range, angle, and LoS as your primary missile defenses with engine and Disto as backups, missiles in general aren't really all that scary.

 

It requires more tactical thinking now. Find a suitable target, plan a way in, plan a way out, then swoop in and kill it with CD fuelled burst damage. Do not forget to escape after doing so. It doesn't have to be a long range escape, it's just a matter of not hanging around where multiple ships can shoot at you and assuming things will magically be ok because your ship is a scout.

 

Going up against a battlescout with its cooldowns ready is still a pretty stupid move for a strike if the scout pilot is good.

 

The difference is that unless you're very careful about how you do it, going up against a strike without cooldowns ready is now a pretty stupid move for a battlescout.

 

I've already blown up plenty of scouts with protorps that nromally would have taken forever and a day to kill outside of using a gunship or scout.

 

 

Out of curiosity:

 

If things are more or less balanced why would you expect it to take a strike a great deal longer to kill a scout than it takes a scout or gunship to kill a scout?

[SeCKSEgai]

@Despon - I'm not disregarding all the improvements that strikes got - but all those changes would have meant very little if not for the ordinance and cooldown changes. SO MANY changes and they don't hold a candle to the projectile "improvements". If you were to revert the projectile, cooldown and df changes all those buffs to strikes would have merely improved the quality of life a little for the diehard strike pilots. You can't tell me that you haven't had to adjust to compensate for the constant missle locks and debuffs - especially given that match last night against drak and co.

 

Scouts can to their jobs.

 

snip....

 

Going up against a battlescout with its cooldowns ready is still a pretty stupid move for a strike if the scout pilot is good.

 

The difference is that unless you're very careful about how you do it, going up against a strike without cooldowns ready is now a pretty stupid move for a battlescout.

 

 

 

 

Out of curiosity:

 

If things are more or less balanced why would you expect it to take a strike a great deal longer to kill a scout than it takes a scout or gunship to kill a scout?

 

Sure, if I'm up against random pilots with limited skill level or my team is the strong side I can easily rely on my experience to fly around and destroy ships with minimal effort. But against skilled pilots in the new meta, you spend far more time on the defensive than you do attacking.

 

Example 1:

Scout flies out from spawn and has a long distance to travel, lots of open area because objectives/terrain are typically a distance away from cap ships/origin. After getting within 11500m of a clarion, enemy clarion begins locking on - scout pilot must now choose to break off and retreat or commit. If scout breaks off they survive, but are forced to disengage (ie not do job). If scout commits, before blasters are even in real effective range that scout is debuffed and must desperately try to use terrain or an unexpected turn to break the firing arc before eating a torpedo. That same engine debuff has now made the ship completely vulnerable to anyone who locks in during that window.

 

Example 2:

Heavy fighting and the scout gets in unnoticed. A gunship is focusing on a target and seemingly unaware of approaching scout. Scout eliminates target or forces target to flee. Scout pilot is then engaged by nearby clarion. Having burned a lot of energy to close the gap (or maybe even the engine break), scout has limited boost left. Scout has already been debuffed and is too far from terrain to use for cover. Depending on distance the clarion is able to maintain lock and despite attempting to run the scout is destroyed, unable to get far away fast enough and unable to break lock with terrain because the projectile was fired. If scout had DF it was likely burned during the initial salvo against the gunship so it was unable to get temporary reprieve and buy a second or two to get to safety.

 

To put it in perspective - I setup my clarion originally as a "mercy" ship for fun when it was pretty clear the win was in the bag. Because of the long lock time for protorps I would have to start the lock as close to 5k range as possible as the lengthy duration was more than enough time for pilots to react. With the reduced reload and lock times, I can typically start locking around 7-8k and land the remote slice within 5k before dumping the torpedo. Now that scout pilot can burn a missile break to avoid the initial lock, but now are entirely reliant on manually breaking any lock - except now they've just flown closer to teammates and can't be sure of all the angles they're now being locked on from.

 

Another thing to keep in mind about DF - it was the best way to avoid missiles and mines in close quarters where a typical missile break would likely result in a self destruct. While not a big deal for the emp burst scouts, it made it that much harder for other loadouts

 

Scouts fight within less than 5k

Remote slicing and EMP Field can hit 5k.

Emp missle has even longer range

Scout is debuffed

Scout is destroyed as multiple torpedoes fly towards target

 

Now mind you, i've had this done both to me and done it to other pilots, some of which were very skilled.

 

Now as far as the length of time to kill a ship - when aces go head to head it can either end really quickly (ala joust) or take minutes as each pilot moves and counters. Scouts and certain gunship pilots could be extremely hard to kill by their ability to evade - missile/torpedo locks too longer and offered more room to react, and sometimes you'd even see a sea of red float across the map as they all pursued one target. That ability to evade can be practically eliminated with one engine debuff.

 

Protorps, most projectiles were just shy of useless before the changes. Despite being effective against a single bomber, multiple bombers ran circles around the lock and load times. In the old meta, I would see occasional torpedoes. Now I see them every match. Engine debuff and projectile lock becoming the new standard - while I consider it better than before, when any one weapon becomes that prevalent (like BLC in the past) there isn't a lot of balance when certain components are valued that much more frequently over others.

[Alzim]

When I referred to ordinance I meant it in the more literal sense as in projectile. Ships have always essentially been a shell for components. My issue isn't with projectile weapons so much as they've simply traded blc, required close range, an ability to follow, and actual aim and given that power to longer range weapons that are far easier to aim and far more difficult to evade. Again, it's not a tradeoff - but merely a transfer of power. Just like ion spam got old, so does torpedo/missile spam. With the changes I was really hoping to see far better utilization of the different blaster types. I'm glad to see projectiles have finally become effective - I just think they're too effective now.

 

From the perspective of a rather fresh enjoyer of GSF: I began playing with Strikes pre patch (Clarion after unlocking it). It was awful, I couldn't kill anything - not even hitting another ship, really. I died a lot and it was not really pleasant/rewarding. Many ppl probably would just have quit this gamemod. What kept me playing it was the fact, that I'm the sort of guy who thinks "That can't be! I want to get a least a little better in this!" and that veteran players seemed to switch sides from time to time to at least balance a little bit the win/loss ratio for the factions in general (or they hold back a little after they farmed you enough ).

 

Why do I think this patch was great?

 

1. Strikes got a great buff and - as was pointed out - it's not just missiles, no it's way broader and you are no longer a complete "victim" flying around with such a ship and knowing the basics. And that's probably the actual shock which ppl need to adjust to.

 

2. Torpedos vs.(?) Laser cannons: as a new player you struggle (some probably more than others) with flying around and aiming at the same time -> cannons are imho way harder to master for new ones. With the long range Torpedos you can get a lock on from relatively long distance and can rack up a kill or two against an enemy who isn't careful enough and/or has used up his lock breaking abilities. For a new player I think that's more rewarding.

 

Oh and I play often against a (imo) really good Imp scout and I think he's doing well (stat-wise it seems). But it's tough to get a lock on him because he uses every tool at his disposal ... so yeah, in the end it's all about individual player skill, experience and so on anyways ... Good scouts still rock.

[RickDagles]

 

I'm curious if you experienced these scout issues in all the maps or mostly just in Lost Shipyards TDM? That map has always been bad for scouts. Do you feel that scouts are weak in Kuat TDM and Domination as well?

Edited October 25, 2017 by RickDagles

[Dixarcs]

Hello ladies,

 

The King has heard your words and has decided to grace upon u a new video showing how the battlescout still has balls in the right hands. enjoy this 3 minute clip video of a game against a harbinger premade. Under constant duresst from proton The KING gets 23 kills and only 5 deaths with over 114 334 damage inflicted. its a great display of how u too can fly evasive and kill too

 

 

 

Yours truly,

 

The great Dixarcs, vice president of the Kronies

Edited October 25, 2017 by Dixarcs

[Verain]

Scouts can to their jobs.

 

I'm not 100% convinced of this yet, specifically as regards the battlescout. I've seen some battlescouts do great. What I haven't seen is enough battlescout in games with roughly equally matched teams to be sure about that yet.

 

The type 1 scout seems to have a couple jobs it works at, and being the only scout with EMP Field seems like it has purpose now. The type 3 scout seems to provide valuable support when built that way, and I haven't experimented with a dps build (and I don't plan to personally, but someone will come along and do that). I believe that scout is worth its spot on the field now, depending on the team being supported- but I'm not totally sure.

 

The game Krix linked is the same one we've discussed in other threads, and while Drako was impressed with the damage, the only things that impressed me about it were that Krix was pretty much always in the correct spot, always flying well, and always making correct tactical calls, for basically the entire match. I don't want to read too much out of that one game though, as regards component and ship balance, but it is a good data point.

 

Basically Ramalina, I think you are speaking more definitively than we know yet.

[Dixarcs]

the video got muted but its fixed

[Verain]

the video got muted but its fixed

 

Today's copyright law would be burned in the streets by the founding fathers. Sorry you had to mute your video.

[ALaggyGrunt]

On the bright side, protorp wars aren't quite as immersion-breaking as gunship walls and the huge Christmas Tree of Bomber Spam Death.