Arcann romance appreciation thread! Haters keep out please!❤

[witchglove]

8 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

Okay you know I adore Arcann, but my JK and SW are pretty badass sexy men in their own right. But Acina is a lady of a certain age at that point and I think she'd more likely perfer a young brainless virile buck from Korriban. Because honestly I think she finds 99.9 percent of the people around her boring; and doesn't want anyone perminent.  She is the smartest one in the room with Marr gone. One thing Arcann isn't (at this point) is interested in intellectual or scientific theory. Practical, usable stuff? YES! But theory and metaphyical arguement, and art? No. This does not mean he isn't capable of understanding them, but that he isn't interested.

Personal example: My father is in commercial and residential construction. I was raised in it, and I have a working understanding on all sorts of building things. IT BORES ME TO TEARS.

Can I see Arcann sitting around listening to his scientist discuss theory? Nope. He'd say, "OK show me it works!" Acina's whole job before Empress was theory and science. Not Arcann's jam at all.

As for livestreams I watch them posted on YouTube. But I'd argue that part of the reason PC can defeat Arcann is his singlemindedness, Tunnel vision will rarely lead to victory.

Oh, I agree with all of that - except that my toons could possibly rival Arcann in terms of attractiveness 😄 But a lot of that is to blame on outdated graphics, obviously. If we imagined swtor as a live action movie, no doubt the SW and JK would be dangerous and attractive men in their own right.

Singlemindedness has its pros and cons. I think it gives him a great deal of his determination, which probably helps him succeed in some ways, such as on his recent quest for Nul's relic, but it's not a great trait for a ruler. Remember in the "Brothers" short story when Valkorion says to Thexan that Arcann's vision is narrow? I think there was a grain of truth in that, like with most of Valkorion's barbs. And of course we see it in his single-minded pursuit of the Outlander. He basically lets Scorpio take his throne because he's hyper-focused on catching us. And we see it in the mechanics of some of our fights with him where he loses situational awareness, as we've discussed before.

Edited October 19, 2023 by witchglove
Edited for typos (typing on my phone)

[JakRoanin]

One thing that I love about Arcann's progress is that he is opening up and getting a wider perspective on everything! His narrow mindset is slowly but consistently opening to the point that he can see beyond the LI too, in a way gaining independence from his need for approval. YAY! 

[cosmicchar]

Singlemindedness and determination are the things I adore most about his character, even when it becomes narrow-minded. It's incredible how he can dedicate his entire being into a single core purpose. This is a trait I admire in real people too, because I have too many interests at once and I'd rather just focus entirely on one thing.

Edited October 20, 2023 by cosmicchar

[JakRoanin]

It can be a good thing for the right reason, but obviously not healthy mentally for our dear Prince. I love how he's widened out. He's still devoted to PC but still free and open to a good life. Our PC's won't die, but if in a story they could I would hope Arcann would survive it and live in the 'light' so-to-speak.

[witchglove]

7 hours ago, cosmicchar said:

Singlemindedness and determination are the things I adore most about his character, even when it becomes narrow-minded. It's incredible how he can dedicate his entire being into a single core purpose. This is a trait I admire in real people too, because I have too many interests at once and I'd rather just focus entirely on one thing.

It's also a good example of the duality (light/dark) that's so integral to his character. The dark side of singlemindedness can turn into obsession while the lighter flipside becomes devotion. As we all know, DS Arcann is obsessive to the point of self-destruction while LS Arcann is devoted to our character and/or our cause, possibly also to the point of being self-effacing.

7 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

It can be a good thing for the right reason, but obviously not healthy mentally for our dear Prince. I love how he's widened out. He's still devoted to PC but still free and open to a good life. Our PC's won't die, but if in a story they could I would hope Arcann would survive it and live in the 'light' so-to-speak.

This is one of those things where there's a gap between what I want to see for Arcann as a player and what my JK would want for him in-universe. She would definitely say the same as you; she wouldn't want him to be so reliant on her that he couldn't go on without her. She wouldn't want anyone to die for her, least of all him. When she said "seeing you happy is enough for me" in the initial romance scene, that summed up perfectly how I imagine her feelings for him. She wants to be with him, of course, but more than anything she wants to see him heal and become a whole, happy person with a wide circle of friends and supporters.

But for me, I don't really want to see Arcann recover so much that he isn't still the deeply flawed character I fell for to begin with 😉 I adore obsessive, tragic Byronic Hero types in fiction. I think Arcann very much fits that character type, even post-redemption. I personally don't think he would be able to handle it if our character died, and to be perfectly honest, that's how I (but not my JK!) prefers it. I don't think that he would necessarily become suicidal (although if her death was somehow his fault, even if by complete accident, then I think he would go down an extremely dark path). I don't think he would necessarily fall to the Dark Side again, either, but I do think he would be profoundly miserable and not allow himself to love again. He has finally learned to love someone (who isn't a family member) and experienced being loved and accepted in return. Losing that would be such a massive blow that I'm not sure I can see him recovering.

If she died, I would expect him to act like other literary characters with similar traits, who are also obsessive/extremely devoted to the love of their life, and unable to move past it, even if circumstances or death prevent them from being together: Heathcliff, Mr. Rochester, Anakin, etc. I think it would be a "spiritual death" for him, so to speak, but exactly how that would look all depends very much on the context of her death.

[JakRoanin]

I just have to point out the irony of the faithful brooding Byronic hero when the man himself took better care of his handkerchiefs than any of the scores of women (and perhaps men) he used and abused. I just find it hilarious.

That said, I totally agree that Arcann's love life would die if PC dies, But I hope very much that even if he decides to become a hermit on Voss or something, That he would be healed enough not to be consumed by that self-destructive rage that nearly destroyed a galaxy.

Since you mentioned my favorite Bronte I must point out that while Heathclif is an apt comparison in type to our dear Prince, I hope at his end, he can be Hareton.

[witchglove]

Oh, agreed! Byron's fictional characters were definitely superior to the author (but whose isn't?). As far as I recall (but I didn't fact-check this), Byron never intended for the fictional archetype he created to be a named after him or to mirror his personality. His readership just assumed that he was like his characters.

Emily is my favourite Bronte, too 🙂 I'm curious now - what are some other characters that you think make good comparions to Arcann? I'm always looking to read about someone who reminds me of him!

[JakRoanin]

Hmm.... The latest Batman Comic run is going ridiculously into Arcann territory, and that's not a knock on Arcann it's a knock on Batman going way too dark. However, I think that their emotional trauma is on the same par. IDK my writer brain sees all characters as individuals. 

What bakes my brain is why was Thexan so different? I wish we could just pop back into Zakuul's palace and find his diary. 

[cosmicchar]

I think the major reason is because Thexan wasn't desperate for Valkorion's approval. Arcann of course was, and his increasing desperation is what pushed him to become narrow-minded, obsessive, destructive, like we were previously talking about. Otherwise, they're pretty similar: same ambitions, same serious demeanor.

I think Thexan did want his father's approval, like everyone wants their parents' approval, but for some reason he wasn't desperate for it. Maybe because, unlike Arcann, he actually did receive some approval. He was considered the crown prince and Valkorion sent only him to lead the initial Core Worlds invasion, even though it was Arcann's idea.

Also, he was forced to become the mediator of the family when Senya left. While Arcann and Vaylin became more unstable from Valkorion's abuse, he needed to be the calm, unwavering figure that everyone says he was, in order to support his siblings.

Edited October 21, 2023 by cosmicchar

[JakRoanin]

Okay, this is where I reject Occam's Razor. I think Thexan cannot possibly be the "saint" Arcann treasures, (not that I'd want him to know that). I keep wondering, what if Thexan simply didn't care about his Father or Mother? What if he only cared about Arcann? What if despite being touted as the "perfect" heir and seemingly more skilled, (see the cinematic when Arcann gets knocked in training and Thexan kicks bum) he only cares about his brother's happiness? 

Now the short story does hint at this, as well as his interest in a Zakuulan Knight. In fact, he seems fairly apathetic to the incursion into the greater galaxy, and his father's abuse. It's all very interesting.

PS. I know he brought Vaylin gifts. But she never mentions him hating her prision and does mention Arcann doing so. What if Thexan thought Vaylin was better off locked up, albeit in a more comfortable manner?

[cosmicchar]

Now this is getting interesting...

I do theorize that one weakness Thexan had is that in order to be the mediator, he made excuses for Valkorion's abuse: "This is just Father's way of making us stronger."

Having said that, I don't think he's apathetic. He felt resentment, in response to Valkorion not having any care towards Arcann's life-threatening injuries and only towards the incursion progress. Then why doesn't he fight back against the abuse? Well, he's experienced/witnessed it his entire life, so the abuse is familiar. He's used to just taking it. Also, he can't really fight back anyway. He has a responsibility as the prince to follow his father's orders, and Valkorion is infinitely more powerful so he couldn't oppose him anyway.

Similarly, I think any perceived apathy he shows towards violence is just familiarity towards violence. He and Arcann were trained as warriors from a young age, pushed to prove their strength through conquest, so war is familiar. Despite this, the short story shows he definitely cared. He called it "acceptable casualties", because it's war and soldiers die. He still felt disgusted that his tent provided him shelter, while the Knights were still out there dying.

As for Vaylin, I think it's complicated. Senya, for a time, thought that it was better if Vaylin was sent away so she couldn't continue hurting everyone, until she found out that Vaylin was actually being tortured. Maybe he thought this too. But the fact that he visited her often and didn't abandon her there like everyone else, shows that he cared. Arcann may have hated her prison, but I believe he didn't care enough to visit her (but also because he couldn't withstand Nathema's spirit-draining presence)

[JakRoanin]

I certainly don't have a firm opinion about Thexan, we simply don't have enough stuff to fit into the framework of context provided. However, I do think that he can't be as perfect as Arcann thinks. I think that Arcann as he himself said that he "only felt hatred for others" I think that started after Thexan's death. Any 'love' or 'affection' for Vaylin died then too. I don't think his not visiting her indicates he didn't care, more that he cared about Valkorian's approval more, in a way neither Thexan or Vaylin did.

[cosmicchar]

I think he cared enough to hate from afar what Valkorion was doing to her, but didn't care enough to actively help her like Thexan did, and I agree that he was too consumed with hate during that time to truly care about anything. After the Voss ritual, he seems to regain his ability to feel love, and only then does he actively want to help her. I imagine he feels quite a lot of guilt over not doing enough to help her when he could've.

I don't believe Arcann views Thexan as perfect. His recollection is just very distorted by grief and guilt. It would be extra painful to talk about the negative things, so he only talks about the positives. One thing comes to mind, he says to Vaylin: "I wish Thexan could be here now. He'd see I was right to challenge Father." However, Thexan is shown to not challenge Valkorion, and he pulled Arcann back from doing so. I think this is just Arcann saying he wants his brother by his side again.

[JakRoanin]

But visiting doesn't mean Thexan was helping her! You can volunteer at an animal shelter and never adopt one! Arcann got her out! She says so! I do think Arcann cares about Vaylin (pre-Thexan's death) he just wants dad's approval more. It isn't a binary state. As for Arcann remembering Thexan, as perfect, definitely so. It's in his letters. As for, Thexan's apathy or active mediating I'm not married to either interpretation. Not enough dialogue about or with him to truly know.

[cosmicchar]

Oh, so what if Thexan wasn't visiting because he wanted to be there for her? This could be an extremely sinister twist. Arcann suggests to Vaylin that he may have known about the true nature of her conditioning. If he did, then Thexan would've too, or Valkorion may have just shared this information with his more favored son. What if Valkorion actually sent him to check on the progress of Vaylin's conditioning, because he knew he would obey? In that case, Thexan wouldn't have just made excuses for his father's abuse. He would've been complicit. Fun to think about, but too many assumptions for my liking. I assume what everyone thinks of him is what he actually was.

21 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

As for Arcann remembering Thexan, as perfect, definitely so. It's in his letters.

I don't see it. Mentioning Thexan's strengths once doesn't suggest he sees him as perfect, just very admirable.

[JakRoanin]

I never said Thexan was complicit in Vaylin's programming, I simply said that visiting and gifts don't mean he wanted her free. As for the letters... Arcann clearly framed Thexan's qualities as superior to his own. His hero worship is bleeding through the contextual framework. Even in EoO his tone (in english) is humble with Thexan and more contrite to Vaylin. In Arcann's head (compounded with guilt) Thexan on an emotional pedestal that he might deserve, I wish I knew.

[witchglove]

I don't think Arcann defied Valkorion by freeing Vaylin from Nathema. I always had the impression that Valkorion sent Arcann there to fetch her, probably knowing very well that the double effect of seeing his sister caged and tortured + experiencing the void in the Force would give Arcann yet another push towards the brink.

Vaylin says to not-Thexan on Iokath: "I remember when Father sent you to bring me home. You hated my cage almost as much as I did... The thing is, Thexan - you didn't bring me home. That was Arcann."

In the flashback scene at the beginning of "Into the Void", we see Vaylin returning from Nathema to kneel before Valkorion and there's no sign that Arcann has disobeyed their father by bringing her home at all. Vaylin says to Valkorion, "you should have left me on Nathema", making it clear that it was Valkorion's decision to bring her back at that time. Valkorion looks really smug throughout the whole scene; everything seems to be going exactly according to his plan. Meanwhile, Arcann and Thexan are standing by silently - there's no sense that either of them are openly rebelling against the treatment of their sister, but it's Thexan who turns and looks at her with concern (Arcann doesn't look at Vaylin at all, but he constantly looks to Thexan, as if waiting for his lead).

Arcann does say to Vaylin "I freed you from father's control", but I think he's referring to getting rid of Valkorion via the Outlander and making her his High Justice (we know that Vaylin was most likely not High Justice before Arcann became emperor, partly because Valkorion wouldn't have given her that kind of power or freedom of movement, and partly because the Codex mentions a former High Justice named Yuriem). I don't think DS Arcann had any idea how to help Vaylin, except to empower her as High Justice. Of course, that only enables her to wreak more destruction.

I'm sure Arcann did hate to see her caged on Nathema, partly because he cared about her (obviously, you can care about a sibling without being close to them), but mainly because it's even more evidence of Valkorion's abuse. I definitely don't think he and Vaylin were ever close or understood each other very well. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that they weren't, such as the fact that they never touch (in contrast, she immediately reaches out for Thexan's hand on Iokath), or act remotely supportive towards each other while in power (Arcann later blames himself for "provoking Vaylin's anger", though it seems to more often be the other way around). Vaylin does show glimpses of vulnerability (when she tells not-Thexan on Iokath that her imprisonment "felt like drowning" and when she tells Senya "you left me"), but she is never once open or vulnerable with Arcann.

 

On 10/21/2023 at 6:16 AM, cosmicchar said:

I think the major reason is because Thexan wasn't desperate for Valkorion's approval. Arcann of course was, and his increasing desperation is what pushed him to become narrow-minded, obsessive, destructive, like we were previously talking about. Otherwise, they're pretty similar: same ambitions, same serious demeanor.

I think Thexan did want his father's approval, like everyone wants their parents' approval, but for some reason he wasn't desperate for it. Maybe because, unlike Arcann, he actually did receive some approval. He was considered the crown prince and Valkorion sent only him to lead the initial Core Worlds invasion, even though it was Arcann's idea.

Also, he was forced to become the mediator of the family when Senya left. While Arcann and Vaylin became more unstable from Valkorion's abuse, he needed to be the calm, unwavering figure that everyone says he was, in order to support his siblings.

This is pretty much exactly how I view Thexan, too. I think the difference between them is partly down to personality (Arcann "always felt everything so strongly", as Senya says in the letter we never received, and might simply have been a more sensitive child who was more deeply hurt by Valkorion's neglect), and partly to the preferential treatment that we know Thexan received. We can extrapolate from the fact that Thexan alone was allowed to go to the Core Worlds, despite the campaign being "Arcann's vision", as we learn in "Brothers", and assume that it wasn't the first time Thexan was trusted with something and Arcann wasn't. I assume that Arcann was constantly made to feel inferior while growing up as part of Valkorion's mind game.

It's common that children in dysfunctional families (specifically when there is abuse, neglect or alcohol/drug addiction) take on the role of either Scapegoat (the angry problem child who verbalises the abuse and rebels openly against it) or Hero (the 'golden child' who devotes all their time to making the family appear normal and happy). I think that's precisely what happened with Arcann and Thexan. There's an interesting source about that here, which I think describes them both perfectly. Note that Thexan also fits another dysfunctional family role, the Enabler. The site also mentions that the "Hero" child is often the favourite of a narcissistic parent... Another role, the Mascot, is what I think Vaylin might have become if she hadn't been locked away and broken at Nathema.

https://www.outofthestorm.website/dysfunctional-family-roles

Edited October 23, 2023 by witchglove

[JakRoanin]

I didn't mean to imply that Arcann defied Valkorian by getting Vaylin off of Nathema, just that he was the one that had that momentous moment in Vaylin's life. 

Again, I'm not married to any interpretation of Thexan, they're all equally valid within what we have in the context of the narrative framework. I would love to have more information, to pin down more real facts and dialogue. However, I do believe that we'll not be returning to Zakuul, and the family. <sigh>

[TahliahCOH]

I absolutely ADORE Arcann! That voice! Omg, I could listen to him all day long, so breathy and sexy and just plain cool. He also has a very cool understated sense of humor. I wish there were more romance in the storylines with him, though. Since the first three chapters, there just has not been as much focus on companions and romance, and it's really disappointing, particularly with Arcann (and also with Lord Scourge, but that's another thread). I want more romance!

[JakRoanin]

The Voss update has huge amounts of romance.

[cosmicchar]

Vaylin found Thexan visiting her more momentous than Arcann freeing her. Talking about Thexan is like the only time she speaks with any fondness. She doesn't have any fondness towards Arcann freeing her, maybe because it was too little too late or because Arcann did it at least partially out of obligation since he was ordered to. I don't think he would've went there at all otherwise, which is why I said he never actively helps her until KOTET.

It's not said whether Thexan defied Valkorion to visit Vaylin. It's very unlikely that Valkorion wouldn't know about it. Maybe he knew but didn't care.

On 10/23/2023 at 2:03 AM, JakRoanin said:

As for the letters... Arcann clearly framed Thexan's qualities as superior to his own. His hero worship is bleeding through the contextual framework. Even in EoO his tone (in english) is humble with Thexan and more contrite to Vaylin. In Arcann's head (compounded with guilt) Thexan on an emotional pedestal that he might deserve, I wish I knew.

I'm not denying that he holds Thexan in extremely high regard, constantly looking up to him for reassurance like in the "Into the Void" flashback scene. (one of my top favorite scenes btw, because it effectively shows the sibling dynamics without any dialogue)

I'm saying there's a thin but very important line between holding someone in high regard vs. believing they're perfect and can do no wrong. Because putting someone on a pedestal indicates loving the idea of the person rather than the actual person, because you actually don't know them personally. Before Thexan's death, this doesn't make sense, because they did everything together, knowing each other so well that they can be of "one mind and purpose." If Thexan had weaknesses, Arcann would know. After Thexan's death, Arcann's view of him is pushed more towards putting him on a pedestal, because his grief and guilt worsens his desperation to believe his brother would still support him in all of his choices, which shows in his dialogue with Vaylin as I said previously. But I don't think this is hero worship, because he's not operating under some delusion as to who his brother was. Thexan did inspire the people of Zakuul more (I think because his calm, unwavering nature makes him seem like Valkorion). He coped with Valkorion's abuse better (he's able to control his resentment, as shown in the short story). And he frequently expressed his unconditional support to Arcann.

On the other hand, I can definitely see Arcann placing the Commander on a pedestal, when he's recently joined the Alliance. Because at that point, he doesn't know him/her personally, and feels a massive debt to him/her for saving him and finally killing Valkorion, giving him a new life. However, I don't want him to do this for very long, because it creates a massive imbalance in their relationship if he's constantly dependent on them to be his source of redemption. It's much better if the Commander is the catalyst, who inspires him to take the steps himself. Again, a small distinction but a important one.

[cosmicchar]

On 10/23/2023 at 2:39 PM, TahliahCOH said:

I absolutely ADORE Arcann! That voice! Omg, I could listen to him all day long, so breathy and sexy and just plain cool. He also has a very cool understated sense of humor. I wish there were more romance in the storylines with him, though. Since the first three chapters, there just has not been as much focus on companions and romance, and it's really disappointing, particularly with Arcann (and also with Lord Scourge, but that's another thread). I want more romance!

Quality over quantity! There may not be many scenes, but each one is chock full of character development. Still, sometimes I just want him to briefly walk by, just for a hug and kiss.

[JakRoanin]

12 minutes ago, cosmicchar said:

Vaylin found Thexan visiting her more momentous than Arcann freeing her. Talking about Thexan is like the only time she speaks with any fondness. She doesn't have any fondness towards Arcann freeing her, maybe because it was too little too late or because Arcann did it at least partially out of obligation since he was ordered to. I don't think he would've went there at all otherwise, which is why I said he never actively helps her until KOTET.

It's not said whether Thexan defied Valkorion to visit Vaylin. It's very unlikely that Valkorion wouldn't know about it. Maybe he knew but didn't care.

I'm not denying that he holds Thexan in extremely high regard, constantly looking up to him for reassurance like in the "Into the Void" flashback scene. (one of my top favorite scenes btw, because it effectively shows the sibling dynamics without any dialogue)

I'm saying there's a thin but very important line between holding someone in high regard vs. believing they're perfect and can do no wrong. Because putting someone on a pedestal indicates loving the idea of the person rather than the actual person, because you actually don't know them personally. Before Thexan's death, this doesn't make sense, because they did everything together, knowing each other so well that they can be of "one mind and purpose." If Thexan had weaknesses, Arcann would know. After Thexan's death, Arcann's view of him is pushed more towards putting him on a pedestal, because his grief and guilt worsens his desperation to believe his brother would still support him in all of his choices, which shows in his dialogue with Vaylin as I said previously. But I don't think this is hero worship, because he's not operating under some delusion as to who his brother was. Thexan did inspire the people of Zakuul more (I think because his calm, unwavering nature makes him seem like Valkorion). He coped with Valkorion's abuse better (he's able to control his resentment, as shown in the short story). And he frequently expressed his unconditional support to Arcann.

On the other hand, I can definitely see Arcann placing the Commander on a pedestal, when he's recently joined the Alliance. Because at that point, he doesn't know him/her personally, and feels a massive debt to him/her for saving him and finally killing Valkorion, giving him a new life. However, I don't want him to do this for very long, because it creates a massive imbalance in their relationship if he's constantly dependent on them to be his source of redemption. It's much better if the Commander is the catalyst, who inspires him to take the steps himself. Again, a small distinction but a important one.

You have wonderful points I simply disagree. Arcann's much too psychologically wounded to be so rational. Vaylin herself is not reliable. She loves neither brother. Also, she is interrogating ARIES as much as he is interrogating her.

[JakRoanin]

One thing I would love is for my JC to have the emotional breakdown she so desperately deserves and Arcann being the "strong one" (not that he's not a good partner he is). I will always remember the first quest as a JC retrieving those holograms when you come to Master Ters Sendon's holo and she can say how much she would love to follow in his footsteps. Well, mine did she wanted to explore the Galaxy finding and learning about new cultures and promoting understanding and knowledge. 

What does she get instead? Three distinct wars, and twice seated on the Council which she never ever wanted. One time before she's even the age of her first Padawan! I think it's time she cried about it and Arcann sooths her. I know I'll have to imagine it, but I'd like to see all of our PC's to be able to have moments where it all gets too much! 

[cosmicchar]

I'd also love a moment like that, where Arcann is the emotional support pillar, and reassures us during a vulnerable moment. It really seems like the next step in his growth, since in the last update, he showed some confidence in himself for the first time.