Arcann romance appreciation thread! Haters keep out please!❤

[JakRoanin]

Well, there is no redemption without repentance and Arcann saving his mother from Vaylin (poor girl) was that first step. The Voss ritual just took the blinkers off. All in all, just beautiful. I don't record my games so I can't re-watch but Fem JC's voice acting was superbly sublime!

[cosmicchar]

25 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Well, there is no redemption without repentance and Arcann saving his mother from Vaylin (poor girl) was that first step. The Voss ritual just took the blinkers off. All in all, just beautiful. I don't record my games so I can't re-watch but Fem JC's voice acting was superbly sublime!

YES FEMALE JC IS SO GOOD

Perfect amount of emotion in the romance scene.

Spoiler

That breathy "Arcann..." when she first sees him

And then the emphasis on "your strength, your sincerity"

🥰

 

[JakRoanin]

YES! I thought I was alone in my conviction that Fem JC and Arcann epitomize the perfection of the Arcann romance. Before Arcann opened up as a romance I despaired that my JC would never have a love. Iresso is a very sweet guy but not for my Gia-Sade. The class story also adds so much depth to the Vaylin portion of KOTFE/KOTET so I just adore them. He doesn't need another warrior, he needs a healer (not physically or mentally) and JC's entire function is to be a unifying figure someone who brings people together. That's what he needs most.

[cosmicchar]

Anyone else feel like Arcann speaks in such a different tone now? His tone and body movements are way less solemn and more dynamic than they usually are. Looking up at the ceiling, hand gestures. I'm so entranced by him talking about what the ritual was like (the infusing spirit part), along with him making the hand movement that the Mystics make. He sounds so calm, wise, and spiritual. This is a crazy good development that I didn't expect.

Edited June 15, 2023 by cosmicchar

[JakRoanin]

He's happy and healthy now. It's such a positive thing for him to have reasons to smile, to laugh, and to engage in living. His being willing to engage (even when scared) is great progress rather than isolating and lashing out impatiently. The road is long, but he's walking his thousand miles one step at a time.

[cosmicchar]

4 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

He's happy and healthy now. It's such a positive thing for him to have reasons to smile, to laugh, and to engage in living. His being willing to engage (even when scared) is great progress rather than isolating and lashing out impatiently. The road is long, but he's walking his thousand miles one step at a time.

WOW. I love how you describe this. Beautifully said!

[JakRoanin]

Thanks, he brings out the poet in me. That said some other LI's bring out other parts of me. So, I can't have a true "Favorite" for my PC's they all have their One True Love and I get attached to all of them. I do wish we had a moment with Senya as well. There need to be something with the three of us. I mean Satele has already given her verbal blessing about Theron's love. Senya needs more than a not-used letter.

[cosmicchar]

Yes he definitely has such a way of doing that. Makes me want to write poetry too.

I have no complaints about Senya not appearing this time, because Arcann gets a dedicated character moment and is able to shine on his own. Still, I agree that a scene where Senya gives her blessing is long overdue. I see the three of them as a family.

[JakRoanin]

True.

[cosmicchar]

Ok re-watched it again and I must gush some more about the incredible cinematography of Arcann's second scene. He starts out brooding in a dark corner, but by the end he stands up, walks towards an open doorway, the sunlight shining on him, the open world of Voss before him, like the whole galaxy's worth of hope, possibility, and redemption is right in front of him. He only needs to continue taking those steps through the open door.

[JakRoanin]

It's all good stuff, I also think it's interesting that during the "Nul Revelation" scene, he specifically says "those around Darth Null shunned her, she was friendless--" he doesn't come out and say "the Jedi cast her out and abandoned her just like my father." He's balanced. He doesn't shield the wrong, but doesn't condemn all the Order. I also love that we Jedi can condemn the Order, and acknowledge things need changing.

This is why my JC would not choose to leave the Order. If they said, "Give up Arcann, or get out," She'd leave peacefully. However, leaving would mean giving up on fixing the bad and helping create something better, and that's the core of my JC.

[BlackSilverFire]

New Arcann outfits, like Sith robes & Jedi armor, when?

 

Let the man evolve.  Improve immersion.

[witchglove]

52 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

It's all good stuff, I also think it's interesting that during the "Nul Revelation" scene, he specifically says "those around Darth Null shunned her, she was friendless--" he doesn't come out and say "the Jedi cast her out and abandoned her just like my father." He's balanced. He doesn't shield the wrong, but doesn't condemn all the Order. I also love that we Jedi can condemn the Order, and acknowledge things need changing.

This is why my JC would not choose to leave the Order. If they said, "Give up Arcann, or get out," She'd leave peacefully. However, leaving would mean giving up on fixing the bad and helping create something better, and that's the core of my JC.

I am SO happy that Arcann didn't say anything to condemn the Order! That would have been very hard for me to swallow, because I personally consider that view to be pretty silly. I don't see why the Order should be condemned for excluding Darth Nul, Ri'kan or anyone else... I've said this many times before, so bear with me for repeating it, but the whole "the Jedi are hypocrites" thing that we're (sadly) apparently headed towards in the story drives me nuts: The Jedi never promised to embrace everyone with a shred of Force sensitivity. They are a monastic order with a fairly rigid system of beliefs and a moral code, not an open-invitation club with lightsabers. Calling them hypocrites for excluding certain people is like saying the Buddhists are hypocrites for not letting everyone join, regardless of whether you follow any of their doctrines. (Just to clarify, I'm not accusing you of saying that - I'm just ranting in general 😉)

My JK would absolutely choose to leave the Order of her own volition, if she were given the choice. Because the one thing that would make her feel like a hypocrite is to blatantly ignore a tenet of the Code (romancing Arcann) while claiming to be a leader in the Order. She would never stop trying to be a force of good in the galaxy, but it doesn't really make sense for her to do so as a Jedi if she isn't following the Jedi code. If we're ever given the choice, she would absolutely leave peacefully, too. 

On 6/15/2023 at 3:21 AM, cosmicchar said:

YES FEMALE JC IS SO GOOD

Perfect amount of emotion in the romance scene.

  Reveal hidden contents

That breathy "Arcann..." when she first sees him

And then the emphasis on "your strength, your sincerity"

🥰

 

The JK's voice acting was very good, too! I prefer her (she's more lively and passionate than the JC to my ears), but the JC is a close second.

I think the most fitting romance options for Arcann are the JK, the JC and the Light Side SW in that order. 

On 6/15/2023 at 3:41 AM, JakRoanin said:

He doesn't need another warrior, he needs a healer (not physically or mentally) and JC's entire function is to be a unifying figure someone who brings people together. That's what he needs most.

Well, all Jedi work towards bringing people together, not just the JC. I personally prefer him with the JK, because I feel it has more potential for character development for them both. The thought of the JC as his 'healer' doesn't quite appeal to me - it's a little too close to being his therapist (although it doesn't have to be that way, of course, depending on head-canon and player choices). I prefer the idea of two Knights (the JK and redeemed Arcann) questing together, both of them with some darkness in their past (the JK was under Vitiate's control at one point and presumably did worse than kill some droids, which is all we see in game), but both dedicated to doing what good they can in the world and to each other. I can see a reformed, remorseful Light Side SW in the same light.

Edited June 16, 2023 by witchglove

[JakRoanin]

See, when I say Healer I mean more of like a bridge. She's not healing Arcann (unless of course he's banged up in battle, or some other Sith form of mind control, she'd do that for everyone.) More like, okay, Arcann needs to become part of the Galactic community, (isolation=bad) but the galaxy is full of fear and danger. JC is not viewed as a warrior (although she is one) but she can bridge the community's fears, while giving Arcann the positive reinforcement he needs to understand dealing with all his new challenges.

Okay, my SW's nerd is probably going to explode, so please @witchglove don't be mad. I just have billions of lore facts tucked in my brain. 

<putting on Holocron Voice>

The Jedi Order, was not always Anti-Marriage, anti-Attachment's, Pro-isolationist. In fact, what we know as the Code, changed drastically. The original went as follows:

Emotion yet Peace

Ignorance yet Knowledge

Passion yet Serenity

Chaos yet Hormony

Death yet The Force

The shift to the more orthodox and far more restrictive interpretation we see in-game is a dramatic over-reaction to the wars of Exar Kun. During this time in SWOTOR there are still reasonable outliers who feel this shift is unbalanced. There are numerous examples in-game such as Satele and Yuon Parr who either had serious relationships and a child, or temporary affairs with no expulsions. It's also notable that exceptions were made in "modern" SW's as well. That and you don't get thrown out for sexual promiscuity just marriage. (Priorities wrong much?)

All this is saying that I have absolutely no problem with my JC married (soon I hope) to Arcann and my Knight to Kira. They aren't violating the original Code, they are following the will of the Force. Something the Order eventually stopped doing entirely 3000yrs later.

[witchglove]

15 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

See, when I say Healer I mean more of like a bridge. She's not healing Arcann (unless of course he's banged up in battle, or some other Sith form of mind control, she'd do that for everyone.) More like, okay, Arcann needs to become part of the Galactic community, (isolation=bad) but the galaxy is full of fear and danger. JC is not viewed as a warrior (although she is one) but she can bridge the community's fears, while giving Arcann the positive reinforcement he needs to understand dealing with all his new challenges.

 

I can definitely see that! But I still prefer him with my more flawed JK. I also find it interesting that the JK has been groomed to be the Hero of Tython while Arcann has been groomed (by Valkorion) to become a tyrant. Both have been pushed into roles that don't necessarily reflect their true selves. Moreover, the JK has more personal experience with hunting Vitiate which I also think gives her an interesting dynamic with Arcann (although the JC's history with the Children of the Emperor gives her a very interesting angle to approach Arcann from, too).

15 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Okay, my SW's nerd is probably going to explode, so please @witchglove don't be mad. I just have billions of lore facts tucked in my brain. 

<putting on Holocron Voice>

The Jedi Order, was not always Anti-Marriage, anti-Attachment's, Pro-isolationist. In fact, what we know as the Code, changed drastically. The original went as follows:

Emotion yet Peace

Ignorance yet Knowledge

Passion yet Serenity

Chaos yet Hormony

Death yet The Force

The shift to the more orthodox and far more restrictive interpretation we see in-game is a dramatic over-reaction to the wars of Exar Kun. During this time in SWOTOR there are still reasonable outliers who feel this shift is unbalanced. There are numerous examples in-game such as Satele and Yuon Parr who either had serious relationships and a child, or temporary affairs with no expulsions. It's also notable that exceptions were made in "modern" SW's as well. That and you don't get thrown out for sexual promiscuity just marriage. (Priorities wrong much?)

All this is saying that I have absolutely no problem with my JC married (soon I hope) to Arcann and my Knight to Kira. They aren't violating the original Code, they are following the will of the Force. Something the Order eventually stopped doing entirely 3000yrs later.

I'm not mad at all! I'm a lore nerd, too! 😊 I believe I've read (and played) everything Old Republic-era, so I know about Exar Kun and the original code. But the fact is that in the current timeline, the Jedi don't allow attachments. If you're in a romance as a Jedi, you are breaking the Code as it stands right now. I don't think that can or should just be ignored. I would need to see a storyline dealing with changes in the Order's beliefs before I could accept that my JK happily goes on romancing Arcann without being (at the very least) reprimanded by the Order. Both Satele and Yuon regard their attachments as mistakes; they didn't do those things because they believed the Order should accept attachments. They weren't expelled because they were willing to sever their attachments and return to the life of a Jedi. The Jedi believe in forgiveness and redemption, so I'm fine with them allowing trespasses followed by remorse, but willfully ignoring a central tenet of the Code, or picking and choosing which ones to follow, should not be tolerated.

Edit to add a few more thoughts: Regarding promiscuity vs. emotional attachments - I absolutely hate how that's interpreted in the High Republic era. Now that really does make the Jedi look like awful hypocrites! It turned me off that whole era so much (and I was trying hard to like it) that the Jedi can apparently sleep around, but not have meaningful relationships. I feel it's a massive mistake and misinterpretation of everything they stand for 😬

Edited June 16, 2023 by witchglove

[JakRoanin]

Still, because we "know the future" of the Order, so we have both Hindsight and Foresight SW's has always painted this Jedi Doctrine as "Wrong". Luke ignores Yoda, saves the Gang, finds out Vader is dad, and loses his hand. Luke ignores Obi-Wan that Anakin is "twisted and evil" ends up getting saved from becoming Palpatine's BBQ, and Anakin gets redeemed, becomes a member of 'the glow club.' Qui-Gon didn't follow the Code, (okay the romance not canon) didn't become a Council Member, and the Galaxy went up in flames.

My point is, SW's says the Jedi are wrong about this tenant. So, the idea that Jedi ignored it on the Down Low and were fine doesn't bother me at all. Jedi falling because of arrogance, improper ambition, and pride, then getting saved by love and attachments is the theme of SW's. 

[witchglove]

Yes, SW is all about love, redemption and people coming together - I absolutely agree with that! But I feel there's a significant difference between what I (as a player and reader) know and believe based on all the lore, books, films, etc., and what my JK and the other Jedi in game believe and how they ought to act on those beliefs.

My JK feels that the love between her and Arcann is pure and good, elevating them both as individuals, but she also recognizes that it makes her act differently than she would have before she knew and loved him - sometimes in ways that conflict with the Code. She would choose him over a thousand strangers in a heartbeat - and that's not what a Jedi Master (in this era, at least!) ought to do. Non-attachment, to the Jedi, is just as much about loving dispassionately and universally as it is about fear of falling to the Dark Side. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by witchglove

[JakRoanin]

See, I'm not sure the Lore agrees. I believe the Lore tells us it's the IDEAL state, but also says its the wrong way to get there. Honestly, there is no correct answer. Nobody can be completely dispassionate or so for lack of a better term "Zen" that nobody affects them differently than others. My Jedi acknowledge that and accept that it might mean pain, but better that than an impossible unhealthy ideal.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Well, I'll just throw into this mix the fact that George Lucas was extremely vocal on this subject about attachment and love and marriage for Jedi. And he was the Maker so it's really his call what is and isn't "Star Wars". He very clearly always stated that Attachments were forbidden for Jedi because it directly lead to the Dark Side.

You could love people, but you couldn't be in love with people. Because we would all do very bad things if that was the only way to protect our loved ones.

He also said that the Jedi were Monks.

I'll just share some quotes from him so you can see what he said himself over the years on the subject.

.....................

"[Jedi Knights] do not grow attachments, because attachment is a path to the dark side. You can love people, but you can’t want to possess them. They’re not yours. Accept that they have a fate. Even those you love most are going to die. You can’t do anything about that. Protect them with your lightsaber, but if they die they were going to die, there’s nothing you can do. All you can do is accept that fact."

~ George Lucas, 2008

..

John Stewart - Was there any reason why they [The Jedi] couldn't get married? Was that the emotion of it, or the idea that they loved something?

"The whole idea of the movie, ultimately is that you have the Light Side and the Dark Side. The Light Side is compassion, which means you care about other people. The Dark Side is you care only about yourself. Getting your pleasures and getting all your stuff. The other one, you give it to everybody. You give goodness and health to everybody else.

So the issue of love, there's a line between loving somebody compassionately and caring about them and helping them. But the other line is not to be greedy or once you are greedy then you get fearful.  You don't want to lose what it is that you have that you are getting. So you have to learn to give up everything. And ultimately for a Jedi Knight, it's very easy to give up.

One of the things they give up is marriage. They can still love people. But they can't possess them."

~ George Lucas, Celebration V, Main Event, 2010

https://ibb.co/M6YfzRc

..

"And part of these are because he was starting to be trained so late in life, that he'd already formed these attachments. And for a Jedi, attachment is forbidden."

George Lucas: Mapping the mythology - May 8, 2002 - CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/07/ca.s02.george.lucas/index.html

..

"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the Dark Side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

~ George Lucas, DVD commentary to Attack of the Clones

..

"The core of Anakin's problem is that the Jedi are raised from birth so they learn to let go of everything. They trained more than anything else to understand the transitional nature of life, that things are constantly changing and you can't hold on to anything. You can love things but you can't be attached to them. You must be willing to let the flow of life and the flow of the Force move through your life, move through you. So that you can be compassionate and loving and caring, but not be possessive and grabbing and holding on to things and trying to keep things the way they are. Letting go is the central them of the film."

~ George Lucas interview, 1996 - Presented in The Star Wars Archives: 1999-2005, 2020

..

 "Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."

~ George Lucas, BBC News,  May 15, 2002

https://ibb.co/t4z4RY2

..

"You're allowed to love people, you are not allowed to possess them."

~ George Lucas, 2010 -  2:45 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiImoO5QkcA

..

"Jedi don't marry. They take vows."

- George Lucas

..

"[The Jedi] is the monk idea. Whether you go to the Christian monks and the Knights Templar, or you go to the Buddhist monks and the kung fu monks, you get the warrior monk."

~ George Lucas

..

"The Jedi are good, but they are not fantastic. They were never designed to be a superhero or anything like that. They were designed to be a Buddhist monk, who happened to be a very good warrior. And they became the peacekeepers of the human world."

~ George Lucas

..

    “The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth,” he continues, “They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can’t form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death.”

~ George Lucas, The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 213:

..

"In mythology, if you go to Hades to get them back you’re not doing it for them, you’re doing it for yourself. You’re doing it because you don’t want to give them up. You’re afraid to be without them. The key to the dark side is fear. You must be clean of fear, and fear of loss is the greatest fear. If you’re set up for fear of loss, you will do anything to keep that loss from happening, and you’re going to end up in the dark side. That’s the basic premise of Star Wars and the Jedi, and how it works.

That’s why they’re taken at a young age to be trained. They cannot get themselves killed trying to save their best buddy when it’s a hopeless exercise."

~ George Lucas

..

"He turns into Darth Vader because he gets attached to things. He can't let go of his mother, he can't let go of his girlfriend. He can't let go of things. It makes him greedy. And when you are greedy, you are on the path to the Darkside, because you fear you're going to lose things, that you're not going to have the power you need."

~ George Lucas, Time Magazine, 2002

..

"It's fear of losing somebody he loves, which is the flipside of of greed. Greed, in terms of the Emperor, it is the greed for power, absolute power, over everything. With Anakin, really it's the power to save the one he loves, but is basically going against the Fates and what is natural."

 ~ George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith commentary.

..

"The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the Dark Side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi." So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the Dark Side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

--George Lucas, DVD commentary to Attack of the Clones

..

CHUNG: Well, what about the message there? What are you telling us?

"The message is you can't possess things. You can't hold on to them. You have to accept change. You have to accept the fact that things transition. And so, as you try to hold on to things or you become afraid of -- that you're going to lose things, then you begin to crave the power to control those things. And then, you start to become greedy and then you turn into a bad person."

~ George Lucas, 1997

..

 "The key to the dark side is fear. You must be clean of fear, and fear of loss is the greatest fear. If you're set up for fear of loss, you will do anything to keep that loss from happening, and you're going to end up in the dark side."

— George Lucas

..

An excerpt from StarWars.com‘s oral history of Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace:

    "The thing about Anakin is, Anakin started out as a nice kid. He was kind, and sweet, and lovely, and he was then trained as a Jedi. But the Jedi can’t be selfish. They can love but they can’t love people to the point of possession. You can’t really possess somebody, because people are free. It’s possession that causes a lot of trouble, and that causes people to kill people, and causes people to be bad. Ultimately it has to do with being unwilling to give things up.

    The whole basis here is if you’re selfish, if you’re a Sith Lord, you’re greedy. You’re constantly trying to get something. And you’re constantly in fear of not getting it, or, when you get it, you’re in constant fear of losing it. And it’s that fear that takes you to the dark side. It’s that fear of losing what you have or want."

~ George Lucas

..

"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion - of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides - the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

~ George Lucas, Time interview (Bill Moyers) 03/05/99

..

George Lucas on the bottom line of Star Wars

"The secret, ulitmately, which is the bottom line in Star Wars [ANH] and the other movies is there are two kinds of people in the world, compassionate people and selfish people. The selfish people live on the Darkside. The compassionate people live on the Lightside.

"If you go to the side of the Light you will be happy because of compassion, helping other people, not thinking about yourself, thinking about others, that gives you a joy that you can't get any other way.

Being selfish, following your pleasures, always entertaining yourself with pleasure, and buying stuff and doing stuff, you're always going to be unhappy. You'll never get to the point. You'll get this little shot of pleasure but it goes away and than you're stuck where you were before and the more you do it, the worse it gets. You finally get everything you want and you're miserable because there's nothing at the end of that road.

Whereas if you are compassionate and you get to the end of the road you've helped so many people."

https://youtu.be/RElw0dhBsOI

 

 

 

 

 

[JakRoanin]

Okay, I'm so sorry I know I'm about to get blasted, called all kinds of names, I'm gonna get called Disney Lover, (I only care about Mando-verse) I'm gonna get so much HATE, but I don't care, I'm gonna say it. George Lucas had some HORRIBLE ideas! Yes, I said it. He was off his rocker, and he was extremely inconsistent and completely inept at making his point through reasonable dialogue. There is a reason why The Empire Strikes back is almost universally hailed as the Greatest SW's films.

GL is an amazing visionary, a consummate worldbuilder, and a filmmaker par excellence! As a philosopher he leaves so much to be desired. Even then, he waffled with Luke, Luke was very attatched to his father, he literally would not let go! It worked. 

[witchglove]

1 hour ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

"[The Jedi] is the monk idea. Whether you go to the Christian monks and the Knights Templar, or you go to the Buddhist monks and the kung fu monks, you get the warrior monk."

~ George Lucas

..

"The Jedi are good, but they are not fantastic. They were never designed to be a superhero or anything like that. They were designed to be a Buddhist monk, who happened to be a very good warrior. And they became the peacekeepers of the human world."

~ George Lucas

..

    “The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth,” he continues, “They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can’t form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death.”

~ George Lucas, The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 213:

Thank you for all the awesome quotes! This is exactly what I think the interesting conflict is for my JK in a romance (especially with Arcann). When they were enemies, she was obliged to show him compassion as a Jedi. That was exactly as it should be; no problem there. When they become allies and she falls in love with him, she suddenly has a problem. She is very aware that she should not form an attachment, but she can't help it - that, to me, is an interesting dilemma! If the Code doesn't matter and romance is fine, then it all loses its tension and becomes less interesting for me.

I guess I'm less inclined to worry about whether the overall message in Star Wars is that attachments are good or bad. I think it depends on the individual story being told. For Anakin, they very clearly DO lead to the Dark Side. For Luke, they led to redemption and reunion.

I will say though, that it's nonsensical for Lucas to say that the Jedi are essentially Buddhist/Christian Monks and Knights Templar and then say that they're not celibate, because, well, the monks and knights he just compared them to took vows of chastity! It only makes sense to me that Jedi should also be chaste and that will always be my headcanon, no matter what Lucas said.

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

Okay, I'm so sorry I know I'm about to get blasted, called all kinds of names, I'm gonna get called Disney Lover, (I only care about Mando-verse) I'm gonna get so much HATE, but I don't care, I'm gonna say it. George Lucas had some HORRIBLE ideas! Yes, I said it. He was off his rocker, and he was extremely inconsistent and completely inept at making his point through reasonable dialogue. There is a reason why The Empire Strikes back is almost universally hailed as the Greatest SW's films.

GL is an amazing visionary, a consummate worldbuilder, and a filmmaker par excellence! As a philosopher he leaves so much to be desired. Even then, he waffled with Luke, Luke was very attatched to his father, he literally would not let go! It worked. 

I, for one, am not going to hate on you for this view 😉I adore George Lucas, but like I said above, I don't think everything single thing he said made sense. I still think we have to respect him as the creator and accept that our own headcanons are only that. I don't love the idea of midi-chlorians, for example, but Lucas said they exist, so they do. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by witchglove

[JakRoanin]

That's just it though love for Anakin did not cause his fall, his arrogance and ambition prodded him but his love for Shmi, Padme, and yes, even Ahsoka and Obi-Wan did not cause him to fall. Every time he did something the Jedi Way (of his time) listening to Obi about his nightmares about Shmi, accepting what the Council did to Ahsoka, or even going to Yoda about Padme, he Always got the wrong advice and the Order's refusal to embrace and trust him did just as much as Palpatine and Anakin's own flaws. I still say Mace Windu was more arrogant and more ambitious and more cruel than Ani  was before becoming suit Vader.

That being said, in SWTOR we aren't there quite yet with attachments so my Jedi view the will of the Force above all.

[witchglove]

I'm always open to different and individual interpretations of a story, and I don't think the "author" always gets the final word on the "right" way to understand something (the 'death of the author' and all that), but looking at the quotes by @WayOfTheWarriorx, it's clear that Lucas intended for attachments to lead to Anakin's fall. He fell because he was too full of fear to let go. He didn't accept the will of the Force concerning the deaths of his loved ones.

And yes, the Jedi Order failed Anakin in some ways - but blaming them for his actions and saying that no advice/poor advice is on par with Palpatine's manipulation is extreme, in my opinion. 

[JakRoanin]

I blame the Order not merely for how Ani was treated, that was the least of the problems they faced. The problems started way before Anakin was even born. If you watch the Tales of the Jedi series where Dooku's back story was fully fleshed out. The Council was actively promoting the Republic's corruption. They also, ignored what their own values and stated intent rushing into the Clone Wars. It got so bad, that Yoda knew Order 66 was coming and did nothing to even warn others. Considering Lucas's solemn belief that the Force is ONLY light than that cannot possibly be considered following the Force's will.

I will never consider the Force, or its powers Dark or Light it's the Individual that makes it so. Yeah, Kyle Katarn one of greatest Jedi EVER with Qui-Gon Jin, and Plo Koon.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

2 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

Okay, I'm so sorry I know I'm about to get blasted, called all kinds of names, I'm gonna get called Disney Lover, (I only care about Mando-verse) I'm gonna get so much HATE, but I don't care, I'm gonna say it. George Lucas had some HORRIBLE ideas! Yes, I said it. He was off his rocker, and he was extremely inconsistent and completely inept at making his point through reasonable dialogue. There is a reason why The Empire Strikes back is almost universally hailed as the Greatest SW's films.

GL is an amazing visionary, a consummate worldbuilder, and a filmmaker par excellence! As a philosopher he leaves so much to be desired. Even then, he waffled with Luke, Luke was very attatched to his father, he literally would not let go! It worked. 

Not everyone loves everything Lucas did, so you are certainly entitled to your opinion on that and that's coming from someone who is a total Lucas Canon loyalist.

I personally love everything he did and his vision is the only one that matters to me, he's the Maker, but you are certainly not alone in your views on it and I would never knock anyone for holding their opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

1 hour ago, witchglove said:

Thank you for all the awesome quotes! This is exactly what I think the interesting conflict is for my JK in a romance (especially with Arcann). When they were enemies, she was obliged to show him compassion as a Jedi. That was exactly as it should be; no problem there. When they become allies and she falls in love with him, she suddenly has a problem. She is very aware that she should not form an attachment, but she can't help it - that, to me, is an interesting dilemma! If the Code doesn't matter and romance is fine, then it all loses its tension and becomes less interesting for me.

Honestly you're the reason I made my post and shared those quotes. I very much respected what you said about how you play your Jedi and your views on the Code and attachments and all that as it was very true to Lucas's Vision and I really respect how you honor it.

Jedi are people too and they are given to have all the emotions and flaws people are heir to. That's what makes for an interesting story. They might have those feelings it's just a question of how they deal with them.

If you watch Lucas's Clone Wars series this is a big aspect of the story line between Obi-Wan and the Dutchess Satine. He loves her and has feelings for her (and she him) and wants to be with her, but as a true Jedi he follows what the Jedi view on the dangers of attachments. It makes it all the more interesting.

1 hour ago, witchglove said:

I will say though, that it's nonsensical for Lucas to say that the Jedi are essentially Buddhist/Christian Monks and Knights Templar and then say that they're not celibate, because, well, the monks and knights he just compared them to took vows of chastity! It only makes sense to me that Jedi should also be chaste and that will always be my headcanon, no matter what Lucas said.

I don't think he meant it literally, just that the Jedi were based on that idea when he created them.

He said they took vows not to marry. You can have carnal relations with others without there necessarily being love involved or develop attachments. So I think that was the idea.

Honestly though, I tend to agree with you that chastity does seem fitting for Jedi. Anakin is the only Jedi we see in the movies who actually engages in sex, Lucas certainly never showed other Jedi engaging in that. It appears that most Jedi do seem to be chaste based on what we see in the movies.

I can't speak for the Jedi Councilor story line as I never saw it, but in the Jedi Knight one, while romance is certainly an option, even in that story they are hiding the romantic relationship.

Either way, you can head-canon whatever you want. Your story, your game, you way.

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

That's just it though love for Anakin did not cause his fall, his arrogance and ambition prodded him but his love for Shmi, Padme, and yes, even Ahsoka and Obi-Wan did not cause him to fall.

The love part is fine, and I agree with you, it wasn't the love that made him fall, it was the attachment that did.

I think we would all do just about anything, good or bad, to protect/save those we love and have attachments to.

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

That being said, in SWTOR we aren't there quite yet with attachments so my Jedi view the will of the Force above all.

In SWTOR it's all about what you think and your views on the matter. It's your story and your character.