Thanks for Theron Shan. <3 <3 <3 This is a love thread, haters make your own lol.

[cannibithobbal]

Something I realized I maybe should clarify: I do not see Theron doing any actual soul bearing on any topic on the way to Yavin, it is a) way too soon and b) literally within a day of kissing this person for the first time, he ain't there yet imo.

My HC for what happens on the way to Yavin (for JK anyway, he's my only relevant character) is basically just something along the lines of:

"Glad to see they finally got you that kolto.  You're looking a lot better, how are you feeling?  You went through a lot down there."

"Well, I'm not looking forward to my next conversation with Lana, but a few more kolto treatments and I'll be fine."

{JK who can totally tell he's not really ok but doesn't wanna push} "Good."

 

....to me, I think opening up more would be much later, like KotFE or later, after they are in an actual relationship and not a "we never even defined what this is" (as Theron puts it) like they are in SoR.  

Edited May 22, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[cannibithobbal]

52 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

Going back a bit to some dialogues we talked about previously.

So after raising Senya's influence by about 25 lvls, upgrading a bit my gear and changing my CS i was finally able to defeat the GEMINI captain and record the dialogues with Theron in chapter 16. Please forgive my absolute lack of editing skills, and therefore all options being in their own video, so here are option 1, option 2 and option 3 with a female JK. I really don't know which one i like the most, and some weird facial animations kinda ruined the mood at some points.

Then the reunion with Theron in chapter 9, so apparently not having Theron mention Valkorion was a bug the first time i played that chapter because he did mention Lana talking about him this time. And as a bonus i quite like Theron's "Guess the Emperor did a number on your brain" line when you decide to mess a bit with him during the reunion, though that's definitely not what i'd actually pick.

thanks for these!  I have to say, I really like how she does the "proved my point though" line.  Don't know if that fits best for your character but I liked that one!

and OMG the "buttering me up" line 🤣  I have never once even on a replay ever considered doing the third line on the first convo and then a flirt, never would have ever thought you would get such a funny line out of it (I also would never actually pick that in a playthrough, but that line is hilarious!)

[eabevella]

I see Theron takes Lana's betrayal very personal, and what Revan did to him more of a salty "this f-ing guy and his stupid Force nonsense and exhausting family drama" resentment. Or maybe I just dislike SWTOR Revan too much.

Regarding Theron's trauma. I think how he deal with it can go either way. It just depends on how you sell the story to fit the characters you play. He could be very open about his feelings once their LI make him feels safe enough that he doesn't think talking to someone about emotions are not useful (maybe due him being raised by the Jedi and how the they deal with emotions in general). He could also let his action do the talking where small acts of care from the LI convinces him that there is someone who is willing to take extra measures to make him feel better.

To me, I see my agent telling Theron a small secret to distract him because the former Cipher is not good about being... heart to heart honest. He tell Theron relative information of himself as a sign of trust and a way to say he can sympathize with that (like the torture thing). Theron is smart (and a spy), he knows what the action means.

Edited May 22, 2023 by eabevella

[JakRoanin]

I think that people naturally have different ideas of what "opening up" means. To me, I assume it means that he talks about every little detail of what happened to him and how he feels about it. I don't see that in him myself.

The way I see my BH and Theron is that she encourages him to be grateful for what he has. Sort of subconsciously guiding him to take the initiative to meet Satele half-way, remember that my entire legacy has his back, and focus on the future.

[cannibithobbal]

I definitely see Theron's version of "opening up" varying a lot by who he is with, how much they open up with him first, how much they actively ask him about things vs never bringing it up, how much the two of them share specific experiences, just straight up what their relationship dynamic is, etc. 

Even his most opened up though I do not see as him basically being in a therapy session where he relives all his trauma and describes every single thing he's feeling or ever felt in a situation, or even close to that.  What I can see for sure is him admitting that something hurt him, or still does if he thinks about it too much (since his default is usually to act like things don't), or an actual meaningful talk about his abandonment issues (I still think it's so huge he would bring it up directly in that one scene but wish it were sweeter), or saying how he felt about something as it relates to the person he is talking to specifically (like, relationship feelings are definitely what he is the most open about that we have seen, like saying how much he worries and how much Umbara hurt, and how in love he is, etc).

He is a boy with a lot of feelings, good and bad, and he is not very good at expressing them and hides them a lot, but that just makes it more meaningful imo when he actually does... I also think it is clear he is better at saying his feelings more deeply on paper, where he can think over his words and not feel on the spot, compared to in conversation.  Bless the Theron letters❤️

Edited May 22, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[JakRoanin]

I guess I don't see him as traumatized as others. Yes, parental abandonment is no joke. Satele did do damage there. Even if I do believe there was no other choice she could make. The less said about Jace Malcolm the better. But Theron was safe, educated, and cared for! He wasn't deprived and abused. Do I think he's got good reasons for self-esteem and abandonment issues? Yep. But do I think he's traumatized to where he needs to be wrapped in emotional "Cotton Wool" no.

[cannibithobbal]

I think perhaps semantics has played a part here, and defining "trauma" differently.  Because I also don't think he's secretly a whimpering emotional wreck who's barely making it through the day and having ptsd flashbacks of his childhood or something. 

But he still had some really difficult things happen to him as a child (not just abandoned by his mother but then being dumped by the Jedi too for having no powers) that clearly still bother him but he pretends they don't.  Yeah he was not abused (I cannot say he was not deprived, though, he was deprived of his parents) but what he did go through still clearly left emotional scars regardless.  As you say, the two biggest ones it left him with are the self esteem and abandonment issues.  And yeah, obviously way worse traumas exist but bad emotional stuff in childhood that still affects someone as an adult?  If that is not a form of trauma I don't know what is.  At least how I define it.  But, if you define it differently then call it something else, I suppose.  

But whatever you call it, imo he deserves to have someone who helps him heal those scars, whether that is through just being there for him forever, or talking to him about it, or helping him heal his relationship with Satele, or all of the above. 

Oh, and hugs.  He deserves All The Hugs.

(I may still be explaining badly how I feel about this topic as I know people often misunderstand me, but I'm trying.)

Edited May 22, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[JakRoanin]

Okay, bear in mind that I am in a lot of physical pain so if I appear curt or short-tempered I apologize. I agree Theron has Trauma, I agree that it manifests itself. I agree that he does need a solid support system to cope and move forward successfully. I do not think that system necessarily must include a romantic partner, but as Satele said he needed a home.

That said, do I think that he's psychologically unhealthy because of his childhood? No. He's a perfectly capable adult with normal human interactions. His upbringing however unfortunate did not leave him with any abnormal or debilitating mental and emotional tics.

[cannibithobbal]

I.... think we agree on this?  We are maybe just describing things a little differently but if I am understanding you right then I think we agree.

I think the main thing with Theron is that he is bad about brushing things aside and not admitting when things hurt him (more to the point actively claiming "it's fine" when it clearly isn't), whether that is his childhood or things that happen as an adult.  And having someone he trusts well enough (romantic or otherwise) to open up to and admit his actual feelings to is important, or even just someone who can read him like a book and be there for him without him having to say it.  And he definitely gets that through the course of the story.  I think he opens up even more to a romantic partner than a friend, but he gets so much more comfortable in general around just friends also.

[JakRoanin]

See I think where we differ is that I think he knows exactly how he feels and that's why he is so sarcastic at times. I also think that after becoming friends with any PC he understands they know his sarcasm is just that. I don't think he lies to himself at all. I think he just expects people to not understand he's being completely sarcastic. PC's are smarter than that.

[cannibithobbal]

Oh, I don't think he lies to himself at all, in any way.  I fully believe he knows exactly how he really feels.  But I think he has walls he puts up to not show how he really feels to other people, and those walls only slowly go down the more he trusts someone.  The sarcasm and the "it's fine"s are both parts of that.

And like I've said a lot, he does this to hide his feelings but he's not actually fooling anyone who cares enough to pay attention, like every PC.

Edited May 22, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[JakRoanin]

Also, we have to consider his chosen profession. In his line of work, he needs complete independence and that does breed more isolationist tendencies. And yes, his issues definitely informed his career choice, but, and this is a huge but, it's also a sign that he can constructively cope with, and use said issues effectively. 

[yenzin]

Look at all those juicy comments! I quickly get behind here. 😁

16 hours ago, eabevella said:

I wish there's more input from Theron. Let him say how he feel about it, or, I dunno, give us a bit more information about how the Republic/Jedi took the news of The Foundry. Did the Republic/Jedi know Revan was going to kill everyone with Pureblood gene? Did Revan run away from the Republic/Jedi and went to The Foundry on his own? I think it's pretty reasonable for Theron to dig out all those info after he knew about the Revanites.

Or just let us tell him "good riddance to your ancestor" lol

I hadn't even thought of this. All right, dialogue from Theron about Revan. That is going into my fanfiction chapter notes for things to add. Likely in this current chapter here. :looks through it.: Yup. The SIS Director is putting him on a week-long leave and ordering him to see a counsellor. Talking about that and Lana's betrayal, and all of his PTSD to his head doctor will be the perfect spot to add it in. If he wants to, he can talk about it again later with his LI too. 😄 (I'm a firm believer in getting help if needed and not bottling things up. I know many people do it, but it really isn't healthy and eventually erupts in some manner.)

15 hours ago, eabevella said:

As for on the Imp side, I think Theron will bottle it up until the Alliance is a thing. I bet he was more surprised that the player toon didn't participate in Lana's plan, especially if chose the "make Lana apologize" option.

In my HC, Theron pretended he's ok to my JK because she'd ask Doc to check him which is... yikes lol but my Agent took the "let's talk more" option and gave him some first aid treatment (gotta put that 2nd combat style to good use. Sniper/OP ftw). My agent may or may not also mentioned that time he volunteered to be tortured for 20+ hour to make a point about how a certain Sith should've trust Theron's capability.

And I could not help but notice that she never actually apologizes for the capture. She apologizes for betraying his trust, but not for anything else.  In my HC, Theron responds, "Well, it's a start."

Maybe somewhere in those five years, he finally gets a real apology from her. 🎶

Ohh! I HCed a hurt comfort scene too. 🩹🤕 My guess is that it took five days to find Theron. That's a lot of time to go through torture. After escaping the base, my character takes Theron back to the ship to help patch him up. Theron goes back to meet up with the others after he has eaten and slept. My character put his foot down on that. Sure, warning everyone was important, but so was Theron's health and he was not letting Revan get back to work without at least four hours of sleep first. 😴

14 hours ago, JenaSalton said:

Long time forum lurker here, but after reading a bunch of this thread for the billionth time, I figured I should post and say how much I love this thread and everyone who posts in it. I 100% play SWTOR for the story (and the romances) and after however many years playing, I have my headcanon for my main characters and the various NPCs of the game fairly set. But I freaking LOVE reading how other people interpret their characters and their relationships with Theron (and others). 

Some are similar to what I headcanon and some are wildly different, and I love it all. So, I really appreciate all of you sharing your characters' stories and interpretations of Theron's actions/decisions at various point of the game. 😊

And of course, Theron is the best spy boy (Jonas, Chance I love both of you too, but you ain't got nothing on Theron). When he first showed up in the story, I was playing my JK, who despite being in a happy relationship with Doc, I couldn't resist taking those flirt options just to see what Theron's response would be. I was constantly exiting out of conversations, because I didn't want those choices to save because my knight wouldn't flirt. Then, when I realized that there wouldn't be more than just one or two flirt lines with him, I very quickly rolled a new Agent and ran through the story at top speed so I could start her romancing Theron ASAP. 

OHHHH! Welcome! Always good to read a new face. 😅 Alright, that is an awkward sentence. Anyway! Thank you for posting! Feel free to chime in with questions and comments. 💖

Agreed! Jonas, Chance, and even Sanju are all wonderful but they are like candles next to Theron's bonfire. 🔥

13 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

speaking of talking about shared traumas, totally off topic of agent, but, Theron and every single PC (romantic or not) deserve the chance to talk about how they both barely survived lightsabers to the chest.  and the fact the PC only survived because Valkorian was in their head, and Theron's experience was obviously so painful that he still collapsed and passed out despite literally having implants to block pain (so either they couldn't kick in fast enough or they weren't enough).  🥺

Right?! I would love for them to talk about that. My character definitely sits day and night by Theron's bed until he is better. Just so Theron will up to see a face he loves and/or trusts. 

Nurse: Commander... it's been thirteen hours... And this is the fourth day. Don't you want to go sleep in your own bed or take a shower?

PC: No. I need to stay. Theron shouldn't even still be alive. I can't leave until I know he'll wake up. And he needs me to be here for him.

11 hours ago, eabevella said:

There are a lot of things Theron can talk about on the way to Yavin-4, if he doesn't try to avoid any... emotional exchange and decides to take a ride on Jakarro's ship lol

The lightsaber stab always made me cringe because normal people can't survive a lightsaber to the chest unless maybe perhaps there's a medical team and a kolto tank sitting at the side of the room. But the animation is kind of awkward. It looked like he's actually stabbed in the liver, which is still very bad if it's an irl wound but at least more plausible than a chest wound... I overthink whenever something doesn't make sense to me...

But honestly, I wish there's more conversation regarding everything he's been through.

I do that too. Saber wounds cauterize. A liver can grow back, but can it if it's cauterized? A gut wound is a death sentence because waste from the intestines escaping and entering the abdomen leads to infection and sepsis. A chest would? Yeah, there's no way. Theron should not have lived through that. Everyone else we see get stabbed through the chest or gut has immediately died. 🥺

How sure are we that he isn't Force-sensitive still? (Yes, I know he isn't, but this is a fun idea. 😉) 🤔 Maybe when Revan disappeared, his ghost actually inhabited Theron and silently lurked there. Later, that Force energy saved Theron. That's the real reason he survived. 😏

 

[JakRoanin]

Master Zho thought he has some latent connection to the Force manifesting in heightened senses and awareness. I tend to agree. But how FS a person is can vary greatly. And he's clearly not at the strength of even the Jedi Agro corps.

[cannibithobbal]

 

He can definitely cope as a loner spy and he enjoyed his work and was/is really good at it (Best Spy Boy), but, actually truly happy he really wasn't (I would argue 0 spies really are, but that is a whole other can of worms lol).  Once he starts to let people in and surround himself with friends and people who care about him (as Satele says, once he found the home he always needed) he is so much happier and more open and comfortable with people and it is wonderful to see.  That's why his character arc is my favorite in the game.

[JakRoanin]

But coping and living a life of purpose is my point. He's psychologically and emotionally healthy. But even the sanest people have some form of pain and trauma in their lives. His doesn't define him. I guess I'm saying I don't pity him. Do my characters want him healthy, happy, and repairing his parental relationships? Yes. Would my BH roast anyone who tried to hurt him again? She's to LS for murder but it would be there. Does she pity him? NO!

In my HC when he gets snarky about Satele she says to him. "Your mama gave you a safe place and people who cared whether you lived or died. My mama put out her death sticks in my ears for wanting a glass of milk. Thank the Force for what you have."

[cannibithobbal]

I would love to find out Theron has some latent/minor force sensitivity, like not enough to do any Jedi tricks but heightened senses, idk if Master Zho is right but I would love that.  It would certainly make sense given how few children of force users have 0 powers!

I mean, I obviously love him all the same regardless, but, if he did the Jedi main in me would love it to bits.

 

Slightly tangential, but a total crazy AU story I thought of while playing SI class story: the rakata machine where they are trying to get force powers back, what if they axtually thought they had it working and they chucked Theron in as a test subject because they wanted someone who had force user parents but no powers themselves.  🤔😳

[yenzin]

5 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

Going back a bit to some dialogues we talked about previously.

So after raising Senya's influence by about 25 lvls, upgrading a bit my gear and changing my CS i was finally able to defeat the GEMINI captain and record the dialogues with Theron in chapter 16. Please forgive my absolute lack of editing skills, and therefore all options being in their own video, so here are option 1, option 2 and option 3 with a female JK. I really don't know which one i like the most, and some weird facial animations kinda ruined the mood at some points.

Then the reunion with Theron in chapter 9, so apparently not having Theron mention Valkorion was a bug the first time i played that chapter because he did mention Lana talking about him this time. And as a bonus i quite like Theron's "Guess the Emperor did a number on your brain" line when you decide to mess a bit with him during the reunion, though that's definitely not what i'd actually pick.

 

Now back to the current discussion, i could see Theron opening up to my JK about what happened to him with Revan, mostly bacause i imagine she opened up to him about what happened to her during her time in the Emperor's fortress (which in my HC involves quite a bit of torture, and the scars on her face and throat are only the visibles ones she got from that)

Oh, those are great!! 😍

The slight, breathy laugh at "Am I ruining the moment?" was very well done. And is it my imagination or did the camera linger longer after the kiss on the third option?  

::Looks back at other videos:: It does! And the angle is different. Fem characters have that kiss from the profile/side, while male characters have the camera angle looking over the left shoulder! Also, fem characters and Theron pause after the kiss to look at each other. I like that gaze thing, but I like the over-the-shoulder camera angle better as it's easier to imagine the lips actually lining up right. (Thinking of it that way is better than thinking that the animators didn't want to animate two males kissing. Looking back through all the videos and screenshots I have of kisses, Theron and my male PCs lips are never shown meeting like those of Theron and FemJK's did. 😲)

But, wow, that gaze. 😍 I would love to have both the gaze and the behind-the-shoulder angle. 

Fem's delivery on the initial meet-up in Chapter 09 is great. She sounds pleased to see him. 💖

"And now you're buttering me up." 😄😂🤣 That is amazing! I have never, ever taken that initial third option. Seems like that second conversation segment thread is bugged a bit as Theron doesn't say anything at all, leaving it up to the PC to continue the conversation. (I tested it on my character. There is indeed no comment from him after that short move away.) Which makes the resulting, "I'm still the same," line come out of left field. 😂

Edited May 22, 2023 by yenzin
about kisses

[cannibithobbal]

4 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

But coping and living a life of purpose is my point. He's psychologically and emotionally healthy. But even the sanest people have some form of pain and trauma in their lives. His doesn't define him. I guess I'm saying I don't pity him. Do my characters want him healthy, happy, and repairing his parental relationships? Yes. Would my BH roast anyone who tried to hurt him again? She's to LS for murder but it would be there. Does she pity him? NO!

In my HC when he gets snarky about Satele she says to him. "Your mama gave you a safe place and people who cared whether you lived or died. My mama put out her death sticks in my ears for wanting a glass of milk. Thank the Force for what you have."

I do not "pity" Theron, I care about him and want to see him happy and think that when he first shows up he has purpose and is overall doing well for himself but he is a loner workaholic who is not good at any kind of interpersonal relationship that isn't about work, he has things in his life that are missing... and over the course of the story he grows and gets friends and family, and he becomes happy and more comfortable and is clearly in a better place.  Like I said, that's why I love his story arc.

 

Sorry but personally my characters would never say something like that to him in a million years because I find comparing traumas and saying "well mine was worse than yours, so get over it" to be quite toxic.  But that's me.

[JakRoanin]

She's not comparing their traumas she's talking about perspectives. There is a difference. Instead of focusing on what he did not have, focusing on what good things he did have will lessen resentment and help him see Satele did care and didn't just throw him away.

[cannibithobbal]

I think he already knows that Satele did care and only gave him up because of the Jedi and not because she didn't love or didn't want him, if he thought she just threw him away I do not think he would care about her so much.  Even on the imp side where he has a weirdly worse relationship with her and he gets upset that she called him "agent" I do not think he believes she just threw him away. 

Even if he did though, I don't personally think "get over your feelings about x childhood trauma because you had y good thing and it could have been way worse" is what he needs or deserves to hear or a healthy thing to tell someone you care about.  I have very strong feelings about this from personal experience so there's no way this is heading anywhere other than having to agree to massively disagree, sorry.

[JakRoanin]

No, you're oversimplifying what I said, and I've also had personal experience in this area. I never said he needed to "get over it" I said that shifting his perspective helps heal emotional wounds.

[cannibithobbal]

Someone coming to that perspective on their own I fully support as being great, excellent, healthy mindset, no problem.  but imo telling someone else they need to feel that way and have a different perspective in the context of "your trauma is not that bad, it could have been so much worse, I know because mine was worse" is... not the same. 

If that's in character for your character and that's what you want to headcanon and you also want to headcanon that Theron would be totally receptive and not get upset by such a statement then more power to you, it's your headcanon and can be anything that you want.  I just..... would not, and if it were an option in game I also would not.  I would not tell Theron he needs a new perspective on his mother abandoning him, but would instead encourage him to try and mend his relationship with her to heal from it.  That's what I would do so that's what I have my characters do. 

I would also just not do it for the same reason I wouldn't pick that dialogue choice about Theron having abandonment issues since that dialogue is presented in a way that feels very dismissive of his feelings/trauma (especially on the male JK, yikes 😬). 

Like, similarly, I felt completely godawful when I accidentally chose a dialogue option on SW (for her official playthrough and not even a replay) which basically told Theron to stop whining and make himself useful 😵  I would have to rewatch the recording to remember exactly what she said (can't look at it rn) but I felt so horrible, I could never do anything even remotely similar to that ever again.

I want discussions between my characters and Theron about his feelings about his mother (in fact I take every possible dialogue opportunity to do so) and about his abandonment issues and worrying all the time, but in a kind and thoughtful way where they tell him that they understand him.  And hopefully reassure him that they are marrying him and aren't going anywhere, ever.  And give him hugs.

Edited May 22, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[JakRoanin]

33 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

Someone coming to that perspective on their own I fully support as being great, excellent, healthy mindset, no problem.  but imo telling someone else they need to feel that way and have a different perspective in the context of "your trauma is not that bad, it could have been so much worse, I know because mine was worse" is... not the same. 

I would also just not do it for the same reason I wouldn't pick that dialogue choice about Theron having abandonment issues since that dialogue is presented in a way that feels very dismissive of his feelings/trauma (especially on the male JK, yikes 😬). 

Okay, you've completely missed my point. This is Theron's codex entry...

Spoiler

 

Lore Entry: Theron was born from the love affair between two Republic heroes: Jedi Knight Satele Shan and Republic Captain Jace Malcom. Their romance was short-lived, and Satele only discovered her pregnancy after the two parted ways. She kept the child a secret and gave birth in hiding. Though Satele wanted nothing more than to care for her newborn son, she had to uphold her duty to the Jedi Order. She surrendered Theron to the care of her Jedi Master--Ngani Zho--to continue serving the Republic. Theron was briefly raised as a Jedi, but the older he grew, the more obvious it became that he was not Force-sensitive. He ultimately left the Jedi Order and joined the Republic Strategic Information Service. Theron excelled in his covert work as a spy, and finally met Jace Malcom and learned that he was his father. They worked together on Operation End Game and parted on good terms. In the following years, they shared the occasional father-son meeting, but struggled to grow close. Though the meetings were awkward, Theron always felt a fondness for his father--a feeling he never had for his mother, who he felt abandoned him for the good of the Republic. Theron's relationship with Malcom reached a breaking point when he left the Republic to help found the Alliance. Malcom saw this as a betrayal, but Theron refused to bow to the Eternal Empire's oppressive army. Harsh words were exchanged during their last holocall several years ago. They haven't spoken since.

So, according to his in-game lore entry this is how he feels. Rightfully so. HOWEVER, is he correct? No. He's very wrong in fact. She let him go because she could see what she could become if any harm came to him. She made sure he was raised in the safest way possible with people who would care for him and guide his first-class education. Reminding Theron of his blessings is a far cry from "Stop whining, my trauma is worse than yours." It's saying... Try looking at it another way.

[cannibithobbal]

Ok, I'm kinda done debating the other point, but I do have to say, I feel like whoever wrote that lore entry and whoever wrote his actual dialogue in game were not in communication considering he basically acts the exact opposite way in the actual game, at least on republic side lmao  in game he doesn't seem fond of his father at all (maybe has an interest in knowing him better but does not seem to have strong caring feelings for him) but shows from day one that he cares a lot about his mother even if he isn't close with her.

Edited May 23, 2023 by cannibithobbal