Thanks for Theron Shan. <3 <3 <3 This is a love thread, haters make your own lol.

[cannibithobbal]

Just now, JakRoanin said:

I respect your right to enjoy Lana and enjoy her relationship with Theron. That said, this isn't the Lana Love thread and I have every right to discuss what I don't like about her in Theron's story arcs! If I was just bashing her then I would be violating the ToS and this thread. The traitor arc was a wonderful piece of character development but IMO Lana weakened it considerably. I wanted more tension, more drama, and more high stakes.

You are completely allowed to discuss it, if I thought otherwise I would have said so, not added to the convo with my own opinion.  I simply disagree with your take on Lana as it relates to her relationship with Theron, and I have explained my viewpoint.  You are free to continue to disagree, just as I am to voice my support for Lana and her relationship with Theron and the writing of it in that story arc.  What you want, I see as out of character, what we got I loved but you see as out of character.  We clearly must agree to disagree.

[JakRoanin]

What about if you don't choose the LS option on Imp side of Meridian Complex and stop the empire from.. 

Spoiler

Firing on Civilian targets. Theron is rightly appalled (romanced or not) and walks away.

before saying something he can't take back and good 'Ol Lana as usual puts her two credits in...

Spoiler

A spy should be more flexible.

That's not caring. That's demeaning, and Lana wants to have her cake and eat it. She can get Theron tortured, she can keep secrets, she can take advantage of trust and friendship but Theron. He can't do what he sees as necessary without threats of death and torture from his dear friend. 🤮

With friends like that who needs enemies.

[cannibithobbal]

53 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

What about if you don't choose the LS option on Imp side of Meridian Complex and stop the empire from.. 

  Hide contents

Firing on Civilian targets. Theron is rightly appalled (romanced or not) and walks away.

before saying something he can't take back and good 'Ol Lana as usual puts her two credits in...

  Hide contents

A spy should be more flexible.

That's not caring. That's demeaning, and Lana wants to have her cake and eat it. She can get Theron tortured, she can keep secrets, she can take advantage of trust and friendship but Theron. He can't do what he sees as necessary without threats of death and torture from his dear friend. 🤮

With friends like that who needs enemies.

I have never played imp side that far into the story so I cannot speak on it in context or to how she says the line, I don't even know the incident.  I also would never choose the DS option anyway so I will never get that line.

Just speaking generally though, such a comment from her does not go against their friendship for me.  Even close friends can get mad at each other, or disagree with each other, or occasionally say something mean to each other (especially in a high tension situation, which it sounds like that one is), but in the end when it comes down to it they are still friends and still care.  Lana is NOT afraid to voice her opinion, ever.  She does not hold back, even with her friends.  If you don't like that aspect of her character, that's fine.  But I don't personally think it makes her a bad person or not a friend to Theron.

 

In regards to the "getting Theron tortured, keeping secrets, taking advantage of trust", that was all way back before they were actually friends.  (And Theron tried to get the PC to betray her back, btw, more than once).  There was a whole lot of mistrust and non friendship going around back then.  I do not think Lana cared about Theron then anymore than he did her, I do not think they were friends then, they were allies in a joint cause and she enjoyed working working with him and he didn't ever want to see her again, and that was their relationship. 

But by 5+ years later, they clearly have a better relationship already as of the start of KotFE (I really wish we could see some of what they were up to during the 5 year gap, to see how they got past those former differences and started to become friends), and over the course of the KotFE/KotET story is when they actually become close friends. 

 

As for why Lana is angry and makes threats against Theron during the fractured alliances arc, I already fully voiced my viewpoint on why she acted that way in a very long post, and I stand by every word.  To reiterate some and add some more thoughts though: 

She was angry because as far as she knew, the betrayal was real. 

She cannot read his mind, she only has to go on what he says, and he is a very good spy/very good liar, his betrayal is very believable (I mean I love him and I believed it the first time, I really thought the writers did him dirty and he'd suddenly turned evil).  She thought one of her closest friends (who she had come to trust and actually care about despite once being on opposing sides) was a real genuine traitor.  In her mind, the fact he was a traitor now probably had her questioning if he was always a traitor, "if he lied about this and I didn't see it, what else did he lie about and I believed."  She probably felt like a fool for ever trusting him.  She lashed out and got very angry.  (I do not agree with her anger, I always hoped/maintained faith that Theron was up to something and was not really a traitor, even when all evidence pointed to the contrary, and I chose that for my characters.  But I understand her anger.)

But then, as soon as she started to see actual evidence that pointed to maybe he wasn't a traitor, she stopped talking about him in an angry way, she started referring to their hunt for the Order of Zildrog, not the hunt for Theron.  And she stopped saying anything threatening about him.  She's almost immediately willing to at least consider the possibility that Theron is not really a traitor (because deep down she wants to believe he isn't) even if she is still highly skeptical and will not yet actually believe it for sure. 

To summarize: when she thinks he is a real traitor, her sith side comes out, she wants him to pay for betraying her; as soon as there's a tiny shred of evidence that he might not actually be, she is willing to consider it and puts the angry sith back away, mostly.  If she didn't care about him at all I do not think she would have put aside all that anger until she was much more certain, I think it is super clear that deep down she wants "Theron is still on our side" to be true.

 

In the end, Lana clearly forgives him, and moves past it.  Just as he eventually forgave her for Rishi, or at least was willing to forget, to the point he even jokes about it.  Neither of them have clean hands, against others or each other.  They both know it.  Their friendship arc has some bumps and some twists and turns, but in the end, they're both still friends regardless.  And that's why I love them.

Everyone is free to disagree.  But I love them both and I love their friendship, warts and all.

Edited May 17, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[JakRoanin]

I've never chosen the other options either. But that's not the point. The point is that Lana has one set of standards for herself, and one set for everyone else. The truth is, you cannot claim to be a "righteous Sith." Theron does consider her a friend and a highly useful ally but I guarantee he has a way to kill her if he has to and wouldn't bet an eyelash if she eventually turns on a PC. He expects her to be able to betray him.  So, would I consider them the real depths of true friends? NO! His true friends are the PC's who respect and value him and won't let go of him no matter what.

[cannibithobbal]

1 minute ago, JakRoanin said:

I've never chosen the other options either. But that's not the point. The point is that Lana has one set of standards for herself, and one set for everyone else. The truth is, you cannot claim to be a "righteous Sith." Theron does consider her a friend and a highly useful ally but I guarantee he has a way to kill her if he has to and wouldn't bet an eyelash if she eventually turns on a PC. He expects her to be able to betray him.  So, would I consider them the real depths of true friends? NO! His true friends are the PC's who respect and value him and won't let go of him no matter what.

Agree to disagree then.  Maybe this is a difference of maining republic vs empire stories, I don't know as I have not played imp side past the start of KotFE Chapter 10, but regardless, we clearly view both characters and their relationship very differently.  It's fine though. 

[JakRoanin]

Well, this isn't a Pub vs Imp thing, everything I have said is based on a LS playthrough. But I highly suggest you at least YouTube it to get a fuller picture. If it doesn't add anything for you, that's perfectly fine. But having all the facts leads to a more nuanced outlook.

[yenzin]

3 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

I wasn't romancing Theron on my first JK (was romancing him on a F IA at the time, but for some reason she never really sounded in love with him, especially compared to how happy she sounded when she reunited with Vector), but when i got to that part of the story the voice acting from my JK made her sound like she was totally in love with him, even though i had not picked a single [flirt] before. Then with the whole "risking everything, including loosing the love of his life if it means keeping them safe", which gives so much more weight to the whole arc, is what made me remake her to romance Theron, and i have no regrets.

Agreed! The romance really added weight to the arc. I cannot imagine what it would feel like without the romance. Theron opens up a bit with a non-romanced character over time, so it would definitely have the weight of losing a friend. I wonder how much though, and how it compares. It'll be a while until I test that though. Too many characters, so little time 😅. I'll likely try it on an eventual Sith Warrior. I want to try playing a super dark character. Have never done so. The darkest I've gotten so far was when, per contract, I cut off the accountant's head in the BH story and brought it to his wife. I felt like a monster! While my character is chill as a cucumber, "Come back! Can't we talk?" as she runs off screaming, and likely crying. Didn't help her that my character was wearing the fearless hunter helmet at the time. 

Anyway, I want to try a SW who is fanatically loyal to the Emperor. Only, it's going to be a very hard playthrough. Koth is going to hate me and leave, I just know it! 😭 And Theron will be rightfully, constantly upset with me! 😭😭 I would not romance him on such a character. So, seeing the traitor arc from a 'just as friends' perspective would be completely possible and feel very different.

2 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

Yeah, they seem to also get the same line earlier about "...based on what Lana said you went through, what you're going through", so it does seem that Theron finds out about what the PC is going through no matter what, good.

*16... both genders for all 8 too, don't forget! 😅 

I think from discussions that all 16 are probably not covered by the few of us who are recording and posting in here, sadly.  But, we can at least tick off a lot of them 😁

I really wish there was more of this kind of thing in game.  More species-specific references would be awesome.  There are loads of imp side references to your character being an alien if they are (all mine are lol  I have 0 human characters), but not nearly enough other such references elsewhere.  I always wish that when dealing with the twi'leks on Tython the fact that both my Jedi are twi'leks would be relevant, for example!!  But it isn't, sigh.

The struggle is real.  Making Theron look as sexy as possible is a highly important full time job.  and very expensive.

Thanks for the video!  Slowly seeing more of them.... for science 😍  (have I mentioned I love your agent btw, he's a lil cutie.  his face fits the voice perfectly as well, and since he was the first male agent I saw it will actually prolly forever make me feel like my agent is a knock off but it's fiiiiiine. haha)

(makes me selfishly a bit happy that JK still sounds the most excited to see him tho btw haha ☺️)

Oh man, the first time through, I was an emotional wreck lmao.  I also knew ZERO spoilers and did not want to read them.  I totally worried that my own feelings and desire for Theron to actually be faking it and still on the good side was clouding my judgement.  I was even more worried that the writers had betrayed me and done my boy dirty (because lord knows that has happened to several characters I loved in recent years, so I have no faith left in writers anymore).  Instead it ended beautifully and my character got married and it became my favorite story in the game.  Because apparently I like the paaaaain.  And the happy ending.

I'm glad he finds out either way, and that it happens offscreen. Saves me from having to tell him myself. 😆 

I think we are missing Trooper and Smuggler 🤔 Huh. I wonder why. And Fem JK is a strong contender for the most heartfelt line. 😉 I want to watch it again but my eyes are somehow not seeing it on this thread page. Grr! Also, I love the way BH says Theron's name. ❤️

Thanks! I remade my agent several times until I was sure the face and voice matched. I'm happy with how he turned out. 😍 So smol and short. I want to see yours too! 

2 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

just saw this edit as I was already posting.  😅  was it literally a random one-time-seen NPC?  if so that is pretty rare I think.

If you wanna see getting hit on by NPCs outside the companion convos, play a female trooper and spend the entire class story fighting off flirts from f'ing Jonas Belkar lmao  (until I started trooper I had no idea that dude wasn't a new character that showed up in Onslaught lol  good to know he literally doesn't change as he instantly flirts on every character..........?????  I guess.......?????  you're the inferior SIS agent, bro)

It's the NPC outside of the temple that gives the quest to see the class trainer. She's only been a padawan for a week and she calls JC "cute". It was sweet. I am unlikely to try playing female on many of the classes. I read a feminist article on the difference between how the sexes are treated in the game and my personal feminist heart would likely freak. 😅😂 I have my femJK. That's good enough for now. 

2 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

Yet he seems to know some stuff about Theron that Theron doesn't want other people to know, because in their short story, Jonas totally blackmailed Theron into helping him. That's a fun short story too, the interactions between the two were quite entertaining, i wish we'd have more of that.

I really like the short stories! I just read Chasing Copero the other day. It was short and sweet. In it, Theron is either not in a romance at all, or he is in Super Undercover Mode and hiding all details of his backstory. 

For any of you that missed the link to all the official SWTOR short stories, here it is. 😉 One night in the Dealer's Den is there too. 

[Goreshaga]

45 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

In regards to the "getting Theron tortured, keeping secrets, taking advantage of trust", that was all way back before they were actually friends.

She still behaves like that even during KOTFEET and later though. She used both Koth and Senya by lying to the both of them while working with them, she can change the content of some mails adressed to Theron, she hides the fact the SIS has tried to contact the PC for months, and it seems she's hiding something regarding Darth Nul too. She admits herself that she shares informations as she sees fit, but gets mad when the PC returns the favor. So even after all that times, she hasn't really changed.

49 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

Just speaking generally though, such a comment from her does not go against their friendship for me.  Even close friends can get mad at each other, or disagree with each other, or occasionally say something mean to each other (especially in a high tension situation, which it sounds like that one is)

This particular line is after the battle on Meridian Complex. If the PC lets the Imps bomb civilians, Theron is angry about that and rightfully so, and storms off, and then Lana in a very mocking tone says he should be more flexible, even though he's already making great sacrifices by going against his original faction, friends and family.

There's another one, during KOTFE i think, i've never had this one, but i've seen a vid of it, where at some point he gets a bit mad and states he still has scars from her stunt on Rishi, to which she also mocks him by telling him he can always use more implants as he likes those (or something along those lines, as i don't have the exact dialogue in mind right now)

8 minutes ago, yenzin said:

Agreed! The romance really added weight to the arc. I cannot imagine what it would feel like without the romance. Theron opens up a bit with a non-romanced character over time, so it would definitely have the weight of losing a friend. I wonder how much though, and how it compares. It'll be a while until I test that though. Too many characters, so little time 😅. I'll likely try it on an eventual Sith Warrior. I want to try playing a super dark character. Have never done so. The darkest I've gotten so far was when, per contract, I cut off the accountant's head in the BH story and brought it to his wife. I felt like a monster! While my character is chill as a cucumber, "Come back! Can't we talk?" as she runs off screaming, and likely crying. Didn't help her that my character was wearing the fearless hunter helmet at the time. 

Anyway, I want to try a SW who is fanatically loyal to the Emperor. Only, it's going to be a very hard playthrough. Koth is going to hate me and leave, I just know it! 😭 And Theron will be rightfully, constantly upset with me! 😭😭 I would not romance him on such a character. So, seeing the traitor arc from a 'just as friends' perspective would be completely possible and feel very different.

I'll never be able to do that with a DS character. I used a start at KOTET token SW to try out the super DS playthrough, but i just could not get past Iokath before deleting him, i'd have been unable to let Theron on Nathema honestly.

Picked that one with my BH, i think it's one of the things she's dona she hated the most doing but it was in the contract.

10 minutes ago, yenzin said:

And Fem JK is a strong contender for the most heartfelt line. 😉 I want to watch it again but my eyes are somehow not seeing it on this thread page. Grr!

If i can't unstuck my JK who's stuck on GEMINI, i can always try to take the one who's nearly up to date with the story to record that, though this one told Lana about the old man in her head, so i'll not be able to see if i still have the different dialogue.

12 minutes ago, yenzin said:

I really like the short stories! I just read Chasing Copero the other day. It was short and sweet. In it, Theron is either not in a romance at all, or he is in Super Undercover Mode and hiding all details of his backstory. 

I'd say, their canonical Outlander is most certainly romancing Lana, but if you're romancing Theron, it'd make more sense for him to be in an undercover mode.

[cannibithobbal]

38 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Well, this isn't a Pub vs Imp thing, everything I have said is based on a LS playthrough. But I highly suggest you at least YouTube it to get a fuller picture. If it doesn't add anything for you, that's perfectly fine. But having all the facts leads to a more nuanced outlook.

Well, pub vs imp storylines are different post-KotET, right?  And for SoR the vibes and writing for the characters was a bit different between the two, which is the only reason I suggested that could be a factor.  It very well might not be though.

As for youtubing it, I will pass and I am going to be playing through the imperial saboteur storyline soon (slowly getting there) and I don't want spoilers.   But honestly even if I didn't care about spoilers, my opinions about Theron and Lana are very strong and based on the story I know, and even if anything is a bit different on imp side or I see someone's alt playthrough with choices I wouldn't make, I frankly do not see that changing my already existing opinion, certainly not to any disastrous degree (it might add even more to my thoughts on them, but I do not see it making me suddenly dislike either or them or drastically change how I view their friendship). 

One last important thing I forgot to add before: I do not have to always agree with a character to like or love them.  There are times I completely disagree with Lana and times I completely disagree with Theron (not to mention many times with some other characters!) but that does not change how I feel about them as a character, only how I feel about their singular action in that moment. 

Real people are complex, well written characters are complex, Theron and Lana are both complex, they have strengths and weaknesses, and they have flaws and amazing qualities.  And I think their friendship is equally complex (like I said at the end of my last essay length post lol) and grew strong out of very shaky roots and despite big and small bumps along the way, and that's why I love it.  That's how I feel and I don't see it changing. 

Anyone who feels differently and knows they won't change their opinion either can obviously agree to disagree, like I said, completely fine.

Edited May 17, 2023 by cannibithobbal
dumb typo

[cannibithobbal]

32 minutes ago, yenzin said:

Anyway, I want to try a SW who is fanatically loyal to the Emperor. Only, it's going to be a very hard playthrough. Koth is going to hate me and leave, I just know it! 😭 And Theron will be rightfully, constantly upset with me! 😭😭 I would not romance him on such a character. So, seeing the traitor arc from a 'just as friends' perspective would be completely possible and feel very different.

I don't think I could EVER play through the story as an evil character, ngl 😅  My most evil character is my SI, and even she is mostly just power hungry and will not take anyone crossing her or her allies, she is not completely evil.  If you manage to do that, report back, it sounds like a horrible time tbh, I can provide virtual hugs of moral support 😥

34 minutes ago, yenzin said:

Thanks! I remade my agent several times until I was sure the face and voice matched. I'm happy with how he turned out. 😍 So smol and short. I want to see yours too! 

Yes, you nailed it. ❤️  I also love that he is smol. ❤️  Here is my boy.  He is not smol but he is still sassy.

39 minutes ago, yenzin said:

It's the NPC outside of the temple that gives the quest to see the class trainer. She's only been a padawan for a week and she calls JC "cute". It was sweet. I am unlikely to try playing female on many of the classes. I read a feminist article on the difference between how the sexes are treated in the game and my personal feminist heart would likely freak. 😅😂 I have my femJK. That's good enough for now. 

I can only speak to my own experience based on my own tolerance levels and feelings.  But, I have 7 female characters and literally my only boys are JK and now my new agent.  And personally, having a few annoying dudes hitting on my characters (it's honestly pretty few and far between, just unfortunate two of them are companions -- but I can ignore them and kick them off the ship at KotFE, it's fiiiiiine) has not been enough to bother me or feel anti-feministed (is that a word?  I think I made that up lol), it just makes me hate those specific characters haha  Honestly to me the worst way women are treated are some of the female companions who are honestly super toxic romance options whiiiich I would not touch with a ten foot pole lol  I think playing as female characters in this game is awesome, personally.  I recommend.  But, I do not push either, boys are fun too!

37 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

She still behaves like that even during KOTFEET and later though. She used both Koth and Senya by lying to the both of them while working with them, she can change the content of some mails adressed to Theron, she hides the fact the SIS has tried to contact the PC for months, and it seems she's hiding something regarding Darth Nul too. She admits herself that she shares informations as she sees fit, but gets mad when the PC returns the favor. So even after all that times, she hasn't really changed.

I don't know what some of those examples are referring to so I am guessing they are based on character choices I never made, so I can't comment on those.  I will say on that point though that my opinions are all based on the playthroughs I have done, with the various choices I have made on all my characters, and that will always be the case.  Me knowing there is some alt version that exists where the characters act meaner to each other or to the PC or there are horrible outcomes based on different or darker choices, doesn't factor into how I view or enjoy the story, as that is not the story I played/experienced.  (Like, I do not let the fact other people can kill Theron ruin my enjoyment of the story as I play it, same goes for other things as well.)

That said, it does not bother me that Lana sometimes keeps secrets or withholds information.  Sometimes I agree with her doing it and sometimes I totally don't, but it does not ruin my liking of her as a character.  Like, with Koth and Senya, she knew full well that telling each of them that she was working with the other would make them both turn away and she knew she needed both of them, and she figured that once they were together they would eventually work stuff out, which they did.  imo she made the right call 100% on that one.  Whereas I completely disagree with her choice to not tell Theron about getting him captured (even though I understand her viewpoint, I disagree with it) and I think he was right to be angry and my character tells her she should have told him.

I have never claimed Lana is perfect or always makes perfect choices.  She is not, she does not.  Neither is/does Theron.  But I still love both of them.  I love Theron more but I love them both, and that is not changing.  I am not saying anyone who dislikes her or doesn't like her relationship with Theron is wrong, just that I disagree.  And obviously everyone is entitled to disagree with me, it's completely fine.  I will always shout my love from the rooftops though, that's just how I roll. 😅

[JakRoanin]

I don't expect you to dislike Lana but how can you make informed opinions without the context of other players input? I know about what Arcann does when PC kills Senya, I understand your love for Darth Eyeliner (More Tora Please Devs). I'm just saying you should understand our context.

Back to Theron, he totally knows how to read Blondie's mind.😝

[Goreshaga]

6 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

I don't know what some of those examples are referring to so I am guessing they are based on character choices I never made, so I can't comment on those.  I will say on that point though that my opinions are all based on the playthroughs I have done, with the various choices I have made on all my characters, and that will always be the case.

The Koth/Senya one happens no matter what, as she tells you she worked with both of them and basically used Koth and his crew as bait to get Senya's help while she was already working with Koth.

The one with Theron's mail is if the PC tries to kill Satele in the Marr/Satele chapter, after that she sends a mail to Theron to warn him about the PC. Lana intercepts the mail and modifies it to completely change what Satele said into something positive about the PC, while completely hiding the fact the PC just tried to kill his mother, which is honestly a very bad look for her. If she able to hide and lie about that what else can she be hiding ?

The SIS one is when you decide to side with the Republic as an Imp character at the beginning of JUS, she'll then confess the SIS has been trying to contact you for months but she turned them down, and if you play a Trooper, Jonas pretty much confirms it as well on Pub side.

The Darth Nul stuff, is just that whenever Nul is mentioned in front of Lana she starts acting as suspisciously as Theron did on Iokath, so she seems to be hiding something there.

Not sure what you have to do to trigger the dialogue where Lana mocks Theron about Rishi though, as that's not something i got in any of my playthroughs (it may be tied to shooting on Senya when she leaves with Arcann), only saw that part on YT. Everthing else are things i've had depending on various choices (other than the Nul stuff as i don't have any character that far yet, so only saw that on YT as well, but it happens on both factions and in situations with no player involvement).

Yet despite all of that and admiting in the chapter you arrive on Asylum for the first time that she shares intel as she sees fit, in the very same chapter, she'll get mad at you for previously not telling her about Valkorion being in your head (when the last time you saw her she pretty much wanted to dissect Master Suro's mind), which makes her look slightly hypocritical there. Honestly the thing that bothers me even more than her being a hypocrite is that my characters are still presented as being super close to her and trusting her like more than anyone else in pretty much every auto-dialogues, when for the most part they actually have very valid reasons not to trust her, and you can sometimes pick dialogue options showing they don't feel super close to her, which then makes them be a bit inconsistent.

And honestly after what she did to him on Rishi, she's really in no position to be all pissed when he does the same thing. So her being angry right after Umbara, fine. Adding more to that even when the PC tells her several times they still trust him was not, especially since there are several hints right away that he's just doing his job. Was nice to be able to tell her to shut up and trust your judgement when meeting him on Nathema though, and that he was able to throw Rishi at her, considering she apprently needed that to finally realise what he'd been doing the whole time.

 

You don't have to change your opinion on her, but yeah there's been stuff through various playthroughs and story segments that made some of us not necessarily like her.

[cannibithobbal]

25 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

I don't expect you to dislike Lana but how can you make informed opinions without the context of other players input? I know about what Arcann does when PC kills Senya, I understand your love for Darth Eyeliner (More Tora Please Devs). I'm just saying you should understand our context.

Back to Theron, he totally knows how to read Blondie's mind.😝

Alright.  Listen.  I watch alt versions of stories.  I replay stuff with alt dialogue.  I have not seen every story or every version of every story.  I have not yet played the imp story past KotET but I am getting there.  But seeing alt versions of the story I have not seen yet is not going to suddenly change my opinion, it would take a hell of a lot more than "Lana is a meanie if you make X, Y, and Z choices" to make me stop loving her.  I have seen everyone else's reasons for disliking her, I hear them, I understand them, I just completely disagree with them.

And, to be totally blunt, why do you actually care if I have seen other playthroughs or what version of the story my opinions are based on?  Opinions are opinions, they don't need to be more "informed" (especially not opinions about characters in a video game), they're not facts, they're feelings.  I don't care what your opinions are based on, they could be based on not even playing the game at all for all I care.  I just accept that we disagree and you are never going to change your opinion any more than I am going to change mine, and I move on.  Hopefully you'll do me the same courtesy.

That's the last thing I'm saying on that topic.

....

Now, to make everyone feel better, here's a picture of Theron's beautiful face.  Love Theron, enjoy his face.  This is something we can all agree on.  Let's restore harmony with his face.

[JakRoanin]

Pixels don't restore my harmony but point taken. tbh Theron physically isn't my type. If I had to choose who I thought was the best looking set of pixels it'd be OG Quinn and that's a character I wouldn't romance if I was offered 1,000,000 dollars! I am not in love with Theron my BH is. I just speak for her.

So, speaking for her man, she needs another date at the Canyon OR a long vacation in his Coruscant appartment because jeeze louise this Mando war is really stressing her. 

[eabevella]

8 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

you did read her stupid letters right? She's the one threatening his life and then is like "We need to save him." I hated that so much. She's so wishy-washy one minute the wants to torture him the next, she's saving him, the next she lets people kill him. UGH I don't like Lana.

It's typical BW bad writing.

They always write Lana as "default narrative" with a weak protest of "but she's still a Sith". In the traitor acr she followed the route of forcing the players to act with her: "oh noes Theron's a traitor hunt him down" to "oh noes he's one of us". She never ever expressed how exactly she *thinks* except to propel a plot point. She never express how hurt she is because how difficult it is for a Sith to trust someone almost unconditionally. The player character never get to talk about her emotion driven action, whether to agree or be cautious about it - except a shallow "traitor = death".

The only exception was the idol dialogue where Theron mentioned Rishi and she sounded actually hurt but that's only a 1 line quickly dismissed by our player character. That's the only occasion where you can tell she has seen Theron differently now and that's why she's so upset and went on a killing spree when she thought he betrayed *her*. Tbh I think she should be more unforgiving even after she knows the truth. But what makes her different from the other Sith is that she will still save Theron once she knows that he did save them all, even if it means to defy a direct order from someone who kills demi-gods. She'll be very salty about it, and her angry should be a bit unfair because you don't hurt a Sith's feelings and get away that easily. There should be struggle for Lana and Theron to fix the friendship damage. But she never has a conversation with Theron about it where the player character could give input.

We never see the potential of Lana as a character going through all the emotional turmoil. She's just there to tell the player character to do the next mission objective, and that's exactly what she was reduced to after the traitor arc.

I have so many issue with the regression of Lana but if I don't stop here, my rant will never end lol

PS: in my own writing, my agent reacted waaaaay worse, to the point the even Lana was distracted (luck for him, the JK is also around to support them or it'll end badly for all of them).

Edited May 18, 2023 by eabevella

[JakRoanin]

14 minutes ago, eabevella said:

It's typical BW bad writing.

They always write Lana as "default narrative" with a weak protest of "but she's still a Sith". In the traitor acr she followed the route of forcing the players to act with her: "oh noes Theron's a traitor hunt him down" to "oh noes he's one of us". She never ever expressed how exactly she *thinks* except to propel a plot point. She never express how hurt she is because how difficult it is for a Sith to trust someone almost unconditionally. The player character never get to talk about her emotion driven action, whether to agree or be cautious about it - except a shallow "traitor = death".

The only exception was the idol dialogue where Theron mentioned Rishi and she sounded actually hurt but that's only a 1 line quickly dismissed by our player character. That's the only occasion where you can tell she has seen Theron differently now and that's why she's so upset and went on a killing spree when she thought he betrayed *her*. Tbh I think she should be more unforgiving even after she knows the truth. But what makes her different from the other Sith is that she will still save Theron once she knows that he did save them all, even if it means to defy a direct order from someone who kills demi-gods. She'll be very salty about it, and her angry should be a bit unfair because you don't hurt a Sith's feelings and get away that easily. There should be struggle for Lana and Theron to fix the friendship damage. But she never has a conversation with Theron about it where the player character could give input.

We never see the potential of Lana as a character going through all the emotional turmoil. She's just there to tell the player character to do the next mission objective, and that's exactly what she was reduced to after the traitor arc.

I have so many issue with the regression of Lana but if I don't stop here, my rant will never end lol

PS: in my own writing, my agent reacted waaaaay worse, to the point the even Lana was distracted (luck for him, the JK is also around to support them or it'll end badly for all of them).

I disagree that the writing is bad. But enough about the blond. I keep having a story in my brain where Satele visits Odessen and there's cooking and family dinner. Maybe I'll scribble it.

[eabevella]

1 minute ago, JakRoanin said:

I disagree that the writing is bad. But enough about the blond. I keep having a story in my brain where Satele visits Odessen and there's cooking and family dinner. Maybe I'll scribble it.

BW writing post SoR are 70% bad, 20% cringe and 10% good to me. I especially have problem with the way they write Lana, less about Theron because he at least got his own arc despite being sidelined hard. But I embrace the BW bad writing and give the "it's nice" feedback anyway for new story updates because mediocre story content is better than no story content lol

Speaks of dinner, I always find it amusing that Satele AND Marr cooked something on Odessen (well duh of course but still the scene is funny). I bet Marr was the backseat chef when Satele was making that stew. I also firmly believe Marr has more culinary knowledge than Satele due to being a high ranking Sith.

[JakRoanin]

Jedi do need to care for their needs.I don't think Satele burns water. But while I wouldn't call BW's writing flawless, I can't say it's bad. The villains in both Manaan stories were awful but the story itself is really good. Who knows we might get some Theron in 7.3 but I am content with my Arcann.😁

[eabevella]

45 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Jedi do need to care for their needs.I don't think Satele burns water. But while I wouldn't call BW's writing flawless, I can't say it's bad. The villains in both Manaan stories were awful but the story itself is really good. Who knows we might get some Theron in 7.3 but I am content with my Arcann.😁

It's more like

Darth Marr tells Satele about all the rarest, most expensive spices used in the traditional DK *insert fancy french word for soup* that makes them superior and Satele tells him "you know we don't have those here, right?" while making a perfectly fine home stew.

I dunno, I always think other than fashion designers, all the good chefs go to the dark side.

PS: Also, I 100% believe Theron is a firm believer that caf = food.

[JakRoanin]

IDK when Pubs rejoin the Republic he remarks that Coruscant has better restaurants than DK. Does that mean he takes care of himself? Nope. But he could be a foodie.

[eabevella]

11 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

IDK when Pubs rejoin the Republic he remarks that Coruscant has better restaurants than DK. Does that mean he takes care of himself? Nope. But he could be a foodie.

Ok so this is purely my headcanon but I think Theron is the type of person who knows the best space-burger and space-laksa in some small food stands at the seediest corner on Nar Shaddaa.

I didn't remember the restaurant dialogue but that fits my headcanon perfectly. Most restaurants on DK must be very formal and boring no wonder Theron doesn't like it.

I had fun with the Food of Prosperity event because Theron shows my agent, who only knows Sith high dining and Imperial ration bars, where's all the best, fun, food places are (I may have watched too much Hell's Kitchen and Kitchen Nightmare)

[cannibithobbal]

This is the restaurant line.  It's just one line, but it's a cute one.  (and yes, that scene glitched and did not take my character's mask off despite the kiss in it and by the time I realized it was too late to redo, sigh Theron gets mouthful of metal lol  I'm totally not still upset about that at all 😢)

I can totally get behind that headcanon that Theron thinks caf = food haha  at least when he is super busy.  he is a self-confessed workaholic, after all.

But he definitely also wants to be able to go on more dinner dates, clearly.  He deserves.  Our characters deserve.   (And damnit, we deserve 😆 where's our dinner date scene?!  I'm still sad we never saw the speeder bike picnic)

[Goreshaga]

4 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

I keep having a story in my brain where Satele visits Odessen and there's cooking and family dinner. Maybe I'll scribble it.

That could be a nice family event, as long as my JK is not the one doing the cooking.

As for Theron, i imagine him being the kind to eat junk food when he's alone and busy, but who could actually cook something nice to surprise the person he loves (kinda like Dean Winchester in Supernatural).

1 hour ago, cannibithobbal said:

where's our dinner date scene?!  I'm still sad we never saw the speeder bike picnic)

A dinner scene would be lovely and yep, it's sad we never saw that speeder bike picnic.

[JakRoanin]

IDK if I need date scenes unless everyone gets them for everybody. But some more domestic dialogue options for all the romances would be awesome.

[cannibithobbal]

A date scene for every romance would be awesome.  I mean, that would be a hell of a lot of writing and voice actors for them to pay so I know it'll never happen 😥, but, it would be amazing. 

Of all the things I could (and would) put on a wishlist though, when it comes down to it I would settle for so much as a single flirt line and/or a kiss at this point lol  I mean, we got worried Theron without needing to be prompted with a flirt line, which was lovely, but, unless I seeeeriously missed something the last actual flirt was literally Echoes of Oblivion.  And that scene was really great, but.  That was like 2 years ago in actual game releases time. 😢  (I know other romances have gotten even less or waited longer, but gdi I want to flirt with the boy)

edit: oh and for the love of peets can we get confirmation whether a wedding has happened or not, it's just schrödinger's marriage at this point, and without confirmation I have to assume Theron/my characters are just in the longest engagement ever.

A perfect example is on agent/Vector where he asks about something and one of the response prompts is "you're my husband", and even though the dialogue is something else (think it was something telling him he didn't need to ask that?  I am sad I didn't record now), that was confirmation that they considered each other actually married already.... it was just so simple and perfect, and something like that would be so nice.

Edited May 18, 2023 by cannibithobbal