Thanks for Theron Shan. <3 <3 <3 This is a love thread, haters make your own lol.

[eabevella]

5 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

The only issue I have with this take on it is the fact that when Theron is venting to PC about Satele calling him agent he says "she calls me 'her agent', like it's sheer coincidence that we have the same name", which implies that Marr (and everyone else in the room) already knows his full name, so Satele referring to Theron as "Theron" in front of Marr would not give Marr any information he doesn't already have. 

I do agree that in any universe, Satele would want to protect Theron, and that in the "darker timeline" that is the imperial story she might feel the need to take extra measures to protect him even more, but, if they already know his name then calling him "agent" wouldn't actually really do anything to actually protect him, it would only hurt him.  And I just don't see Satele pretending to not care about Theron just to protect him anyway (short of some life or death scenario) when she knows how much their lack of relationship already hurts him.  Which is why their relationship on imperial Rishi/Yavin just feels... all kinds of wrong to me, and I frankly do not like it.  Number one thing I do not like about the story on the imperial side.

Because the Grand Jedi Master won't just call a random SIS agent by their first name in a professional situation.

It's one thing Marr knows about Theron's relation to her, which is already a bad call from the beginning (Theron actually mentioned it in one of the dialogue), it's another level of bad for Satele to show personal feelings to her son in front of a Sith who's most likely plotting how to use that knowledge against her. By making their relationship as strictly business as possible, it reduces the value of using Theron as a target. If the Grand Jedi Master doesn't care about her non-Force sensitive son, there's no point wasting resources to use him as a leverage against her now or in the future.

Nothing is pretty on the Empire side, and I think Satele is shown to be under more pressure because of the power imbalance. It really gets to her and Theron is the casualty due to the power play and political game she was forced to play with Marr.

On a side note, I can't imagine my agent and Theron have any "flirt" dialogues on Yavin (even though I did take them in my recordings because the game lacks subtlety in the romance department) because like you said, an actual "relationship" feels wrong due to the general suppressive feelings on the Imp side.

In my interpretation, Yavin-4 is more of a closure to something that's impossible from the beginning where both of them just secretly glad that it didn't end with them having to kill each other. But my agent told Theron his real name before they departed because he thought he would never see Theron again and he wanted to be the last person between them to catch the other one off guard. It's only fair that they both did something irrational (but my agent also deleted all his info in the class story so it's not like Theron can find anything... you don't become a Cipher agent by being too careful lol)

[Goreshaga]

9 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

Yeah, I mean I played both my Jedi as pure light with 0 dark side choices, but my JC is super pure and just kind and gentle 100% of the time (part of why I wanna romance my second JC with Zenith tbh, because I like the HC that that really rubs off on him and that's why he trusts her so much... but that's me off topic lol) but I played more of the middle dialogue options on JK, like the ones that are sassy or questioning of authority or what have you, even though he is ultimately always good and cares about people.  And when Theron is threatened he will definitely threaten back, and like I've said before my HC is he was never more tempted by the dark side than when he considered murdering Atrius for nearly killing Theron, but he was ultimately able to resist it.  Whereas my JC, she would never even consider killing Atrius even though she also loves Theron.

My JC is also 100% LS who always tries to make the best choices, and was completely romance-free during his class story (that being said, Nadia being the only option made that easy, i like Nadia, but her romance is all kind of wrong, i ended up stuck in that romance on my first JC because i tried to be nice to her after she lost her father and i absolutely hated it).

My JK on the other hand is a lot more sarcastic, and can sometimes be pretty antagonistic with some people, mainly enemies as she can usually judge people pretty fast. She also has a tendency to become a tad bit more agressive when someone she cares about is threatened (that was mostly about Kira during the class story as she sees her as a very close friend, the closest thing she has to a sister). She didn't kill Attrius the first time i played that, though she was really close and stoped only because Lana told her Theron was still alive but needed to go back to Odessen ASAP. I think she'll kill him the next though, not just because he nearly killed Theron, but also because he threatened all the people on Odessen, so that's also a way to send a message that she'll do everything necessary to keep the people under her protection safe. So, while she's mostly LS, she also has a dark side, and for me it made her a lot more interesting than my JC as a character.

7 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

And just so this post is vaguely on topic: I stand by my statement that Theron would know about this mission since the SIS was involved, and I think he would not approve of the actions of the BH on that mission, and I think it would be just one example of a thing that Theron would have to personally get past when starting a relationship with said BH, in the same way that he would have to push aside his feelings toward imperials who had worked directly against the republic.  But obviously Theron has a big heart and would ultimately look past it and forgive, especially if he is really into that person.  Just my opinion, but that's how I see it.

Not to mention the BH is pretty much directly responsible for Saresh becoming the new Chancellor, which Theron may hold against them as he's not exactly her biggest fan.

3 hours ago, yenzin said:

All this talk of how Theron and his mom's relationship varies from Republic to Imperial and which one has a better or worse relationship with each other. Let's go through the video for both sides. 😉 I worked on these for four hours! 😱 Thus, while it would have been better to just snip all the relevant parts out, I didn't want to. 🌟 Instead, each video has timestamps to skip to the relevant parts. 🌟

 

Here is the Imperial side. I mainly used my agent for this as he had a better relationship with everyone. My BH was... prickly... with Satele. (Again, my characters are not me, I am not my characters, and they are not each other.) My agent does not have the romance activated with Theron though, so I used my BH for the parts where Theron speaks more about his mom with the PC if the romance is active.

There is distinctly less Theron and Satele interaction. Satele and Theron both speak less and when they do, they are constantly at odds. Theron never stands up for himself or addresses the issue with her. Satele refers to Theron as "an agent of ours" when talking to Marr over holo. Then, "my agent" while gesturing to Theron on Rishi. Then she firmly instructs Theron, "Agent - compose yourself," when he gets snippy with Lana for withholding intel that could have helped them better prepare against the Massassi. She never calls him by his actual name. Then Marr refers to Theron as, "your agent", to Satele. 

Theron opens up to the PC at the end of Rishi about Satele referring to him as, "her agent". To me, he does seem to be bothered by it but pretends that it does not affect him. Theron will open up a bit more about his mom and the Force after Ivan's interrogation. He will also open up again while saying goodbye to a romanced PC. I had to do a lot of editing for this scene because in my BH's final version of that scene, he did not ask Theron about his mother. Good thing I had all that extra video recorded. 😁

Here is the Republic side. I only have my JC on this side. He was... confrontational... to both Marr and Lana and I have no extra scenes recorded so I can't splice in different conversation options. Apologies! Fortunately, again, I have included time stamps in the video's description so you skip all of the extra stuff. My next JC really needs to be less anti-Sith. 😅

Already, you can see that it is longer. Much longer. Theron and Satele have more screen time and they don't contradict each other. Satele does not call him her "agent", and she does not reprimand him in front of the PC, the PC's companion, Marr, Lana, and the Republic and Imperial Troops. Not even when he gets snippy with Marr. Theron jokes about needing a call sign if the PC asks him about being related to the Grand Master (another scene that was extra as my JC's final video used the third dialogue option). He is very pragmatic and understanding (true or not is the question) when talking to the PC in the cantina regarding the Jedi and their rules. He reports to Satele over comms while she is talking to Marr and is very professional.

While he does not go with Satele at the end of Rishi, preferring to finish up on what he is working on, he does continue to work well with her on Yavin. Neither of them steps on the other's toes and they are both in agreement when it comes to stalling Marr and sending the PC to the Emperor Guard's temple despite Marr's wishes and all the talk of needing to trust each other. 🤣 Theron does not open up as much to the PC, but the PC can ask him if working with his mother has been going well. 

Overall, the two sides and the relationship between Satele and Theron is vastly different on either side. 🧐

Thanks for all that.

So, i definitely like the pub side better.

3 hours ago, eabevella said:

Tbh I mix-match the slightly different versions into my personal canon so it match up the "Hero of Tython and former Cipher Nine working together since Manaan" plot of mine even though it's kind of a pain to have to watch and verify every cutscene while wondering if my memory is broken.

I do the same but it's my Hero and Tython and Wrath fought togather against Malgus and worked together since Manaan. And my SW who saw quite right away there was something going on between my JK and Theron. She also worked with Theron and Lana during the 5 years my JK was frozen. But yeah it's sometimes quite difficult to juggle between the two sides.

 

3 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

As for his parents though, I.... honestly just don't want Theron to have Malcolm in his life unless the man actually starts respecting who Theron is and stops wanting him to be something he isn't.  Theron has spent so long finding who he is and where he belongs and he does not need that kind of negative influence in his life.  Just because Malcolm is blood doesn't make him family, and doesn't make him someone Theron needs.

From the very beginning of meeting Theron it is super clear that he cares a lot about Satele and wishes he had a better relationship with her but doesn't think it's possible and doesn't know how to.  But with Malcolm?  We have only ever seen him be mildly antagonistic and pretty dismissive toward him, with the exception of being upset

  Reveal hidden contents

if Malcolm literally dies

which honestly would shake anyone, especially someone with as big and squishy of a heart as Theron, so I don't take that as any kind of sign that he is remotely ready to accept that man into his life as an actual father figure.

If Theron starts expressing or demonstrating a deep desire to connect with him, I would respect that and make my characters help him do it, but, so far imo that just has not happened.  Which means, in any playthrough of mine, no toxic father figures for my boy. 

He is finally able to have a good relationship with his mother and he has friends and a new family made up of people around him who actually care about him and respect him as the wonderful person that he is and who help him open up and be his best self and support him and help pick him back up when he makes mistakes.  Those are the relationships he needs and deserves, and he already has them.  He doesn't need Jace Malcolm, and I think he's better off without him.

...../off the soap box now lol

There is a short story set after the events on Yavin where we can see Theron and Malcom having a meal together and trying to bond. They are really trying but they're not very good at it, like they don't really know where to start and they're both quite nervous.

Then it is quite obvious Theron would care more about his mother, he always knew who she was and why she gave him away, he met his father only during Annihilation, and never really had any time to get used to who his father was, not to mention Master Zho raised him, and he's the one Theron sees as his father. Likewise Malcom never knew he had a son until he figured it out when he first met Theron, he never had time to process the whole thing and doesn't know how to be a father. But yeah he's probably more willing to have a relationship than Theron is, especially after the 5 years timeskip, as it seems they had a huge disagreement when Theron joined Lana to build the Alliance.

2 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

The only issue I have with this take on it is the fact that when Theron is venting to PC about Satele calling him agent he says "she calls me 'her agent', like it's sheer coincidence that we have the same name", which implies that Marr (and everyone else in the room) already knows his full name, so Satele referring to Theron as "Theron" in front of Marr would not give Marr any information he doesn't already have. 

I do agree that in any universe, Satele would want to protect Theron, and that in the "darker timeline" that is the imperial story she might feel the need to take extra measures to protect him even more, but, if they already know his name then calling him "agent" wouldn't actually really do anything to actually protect him, it would only hurt him.  And I just don't see Satele pretending to not care about Theron just to protect him anyway (short of some life or death scenario) when she knows how much their lack of relationship already hurts him.  Which is why their relationship on imperial Rishi/Yavin just feels... all kinds of wrong to me, and I frankly do not like it.  Number one thing I do not like about the story on the imperial side.

I feel quite the same here.

Honestly, outside of RotHC which is infinitely more interesting on Imp side, i like all the other expansions more on Pub side, but especially everything post KOTET.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Goreshaga

[cannibithobbal]

6 hours ago, eabevella said:

Because the Grand Jedi Master won't just call a random SIS agent by their first name in a professional situation.

It's one thing Marr knows about Theron's relation to her, which is already a bad call from the beginning (Theron actually mentioned it in one of the dialogue), it's another level of bad for Satele to show personal feelings to her son in front of a Sith who's most likely plotting how to use that knowledge against her. By making their relationship as strictly business as possible, it reduces the value of using Theron as a target. If the Grand Jedi Master doesn't care about her non-Force sensitive son, there's no point wasting resources to use him as a leverage against her now or in the future.

Nothing is pretty on the Empire side, and I think Satele is shown to be under more pressure because of the power imbalance. It really gets to her and Theron is the casualty due to the power play and political game she was forced to play with Marr.

I think it's definitely agree to disagree on this one. 

I completely agree on the imperial story being more dangerous and that Marr might potentially want to use Theron against Satele or that she might be worried that he would, but fundamentally I don't find calling someone by their first name to be showing any particular level of personal feelings, to me that's just... normal.  And literally everyone else is calling him "Theron."  On republic side (can't remember imperial) MARR even calls Theron by his first name.  I think if she was like "my son found this info for us" THAT would make no sense and would be too personal, but just saying "Theron" instead of "my agent" would just be... normal. 

More important to any of that, Marr is a super powerful force user, on par with Satele herself.  He would easily be able to feel for himself whether Satele has strong personal feelings about Theron or not that he could potentially exploit (if he was actually after that), her calling him by his name vs a cold generic title would not make a difference in that. 

The more I think about it the more I dislike it, as it feels like the writers were just lazy and couldn't think of a decent recent for Theron to tell an imperial his life story without him being mad enough to vent about it.  🤷‍♀️  I love Theron and Satele's relationship arc on republic side, do not like that being messed with on imperial side.

I think if Theron were just.... a bit sad but pretending he isn't instead of mad and venting about the "agent" thing it would at least be closer to in line with their republic relationship, but, it still wouldn't be enough for me to fully like it.

5 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

Not to mention the BH is pretty much directly responsible for Saresh becoming the new Chancellor, which Theron may hold against them as he's not exactly her biggest fan.

Oh man, I haven't even got that far yet but hoo boy, yeah, Theron hates Suresh with the burning passion of a thousand suns lmao  That would definitely be an.... interesting conversation with the BH 😅

5 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

There is a short story set after the events on Yavin where we can see Theron and Malcom having a meal together and trying to bond. They are really trying but they're not very good at it, like they don't really know where to start and they're both quite nervous.

I think I would be interested to read that.  I doubt it would be enough to turn me around as the interactions we do see in game are yeaaars later on Iokath so I consider those to be Theron's most up-to-date feelings about it.  But that would be interesting to see for sure.

5 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

I feel quite the same here.

Honestly, outside of RotHC which is infinitely more interesting on Imp side, i like all the other expansions more on Pub side, but especially everything post KOTET.

I am realizing I never actually played Makeb on imperial, I just skipped right past it.  Hm, maybe I will give that a go sometime.

But yeah, I agree, of the stories I have played on both sides, I just vastly prefer republic.  Even Ziost which is basically the same, I feel like the republic version weirdly gives just a little bit more detail about what's happening.  I have not gotten past KotET yet on imperial (getting there!) but based on the things I have heard about the story, I am sure I will feel the same.  I mean, case and point: imperials don't get to meet Zenith.  That's automatically worse to me 😉

I think it will be fun to do the the saboteur story though.

[cannibithobbal]

Something I randomly thought of, unrelated but going back to previous topic, in regards to Theron and JK relationship. 

JK personally saved Satele's life when they became the "Hero of Tython" and stopped the atmosphere from being melted, and there's no way Theron wouldn't appreciate them for that.  My personal HC is definitely that that was part of why he recruited JK for the mission to Korriban in that timeline.

I like that Satele is a point of commonality between them also as JK works very closely with her through their whole class story (in contrast JC talks to her, like, 3 times?  lol   but JK is a ton), and as such I like the HC that JK knowing Satele so well allows them to help Theron and her mend their relationship.

...that's just my random thought for the morning.

Edited May 16, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[yenzin]

18 hours ago, eabevella said:

I think Satele's attitude on the Imp side was fair because Darth Marr was there too, and the last thing she wanted was to let the de facto head Sith think there's a possibility that she has "personal attachment" with her son. There's no guarantee the Sith won't use Theron against her or kill Theron to simply hurt her. Which makes Theron's outburst to the Imp player... interesting because he really shouldn't exposed that much of himself.

18 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

Yeah would have to watch in english to see the difference.

Just rewarched the scene in french he's fairly neutral to Satele there, but he's very pissed at Lana once Satele is out, so it may also be why he's not overly nice to Satele in english as he wants to confront Lana about her getting him captured and tortured, so his attitude may simply be a way to get Satele out before confronting Lana.

Yeah i always found it kinda odd for him to open up that much about the whole situation with Satele to imp characters, baceuse, especially after what Lana did, he doesn't have that many reasons to trust them.

I too find it strange that Theon opens up more to an Imperial player. I played BH first and it was odd playing JC afterwards. I felt as if I got to know him less even though he seemed to trust my JC easier and I got more screen time with him. 🤔

18 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

This so much this! Marr isn't that sadistic for no reason but he does dig at Satele of Yavin when he wants to torture the cult leader. Using Theron's skills to do it. Poor Satele gets such a bad rap. I'm not saying she did the right thing, but she did what she could. 

I have never tortured Ivan on my character so I don't know how that scene goes. Does Marr really make Theron do it? That is awful! Poor Theron! 😥 Both my BH and agent would not have hesitated to torture Ivan themselves in order to save Theron from having to do so. 😣 My agent would have easily gotten that information in no time too!

18 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

And I also think that all through SoR/Ziost, no matter what republic character you are playing on, the relationship is always kind of played like it could be the start of something serious or just potentially a mission-bound fling.  The "for when you wake up" letter from Theron basically confirms this, where he says that they never defined what their relationship was but that he cares a lot and hopes they still care about him back.  The one imperial version I did definitely felt like it was always played as a fling that was always going to end after that mission even if they were into each other, but he does send the same letter regardless.  To me the letter doesn't really work so well with the imperial version, or at least not with a sith lol  but he does send it.

Agreed. I got it on both my BH and JC and I do believe it worked better for my JC. 

 

 

You all are welcome for the videos. I hope they helped. I was forced to go to bed before the Republic one finished uploading. It still had 42 minutes to go at the time. It's available to watch now if anyone still wants to see it. 

 

The Star Wars universe is so very advanced. Contraceptives would definitely be a thing. Maybe the Jedi aren't allowed to use them or are not taught how to use them. The Jedi preach a lot about the dangers of attachments and relationships. They aren't forbidden from having children, but they are forbidden from keeping them. (Behind the scenes section.) It is possible that the Jedi would preach abstinence and celibacy first and their sex education would be severely lacking. Completely believable as many US schools and parents fail when it comes to sex education. So let's say, the teenage male and female Jedi are told to abstain, and they don't learn about contraceptions, or exactly where and how babies happen. 🤔

The lack of contraceptive education/availability could also be due to the Jedi Order Doctrine. Jedi is a religion too. It is a monastic regime. They essentially worship the Force and they constantly need Force-sensitive children from outside the Order because they forbid their members from keeping their own. By denying proper sex education and access to contraceptives, they can ensure that some of the children born from accidents are Force-sensitive. While Force sensitivity can come randomly into bloodlines, it has been shown again and again, that it does present more strongly in Force-sensitive bloodlines, Jedi, and Sith. Sure, those children won't be raised by the mother, and will be passed on to an orphanage or equivalent upon birth, but it is possible that that baby will make it back to the Order by the time the child is five. Thus, adding to the Order's population. In this way too, they have to worry slightly less about acquiring Force-sensitives through some other way.

This could also explain Theron's Shan name. Maybe the Jedi are told/taught that if they do have babies, the babies have to carry their last name. This makes it easier for the Order to track the baby down later in order to test the child for Force-sensitivity. 😶

Satele's pregnancy was due to a relationship. I have not read the books/comics, but I don't think they cover why Malcolm would not have used some sort of contraceptive himself. Maybe he secretly wanted a child or never got snipped because he was celibate before Satele. Maybe they unbelievably don't make condoms that fit him properly. 🤷🏽🤭 I also don't believe the books/comics cover how or why Satele got pregnant when it is very apparent that she never intended to have a child and is very committed/dedicated to the Order. Maybe she was not taught about contraceptives. She never even learned the word while growing up and thus had no idea it was possible to prevent pregnancy. Maybe she was taught that children were a will of the Force and no matter how much intercourse she had, she would not get pregnant if the Force did not will it. 🤷🏽😂

Maybe Malcom assumed she had the contraceptive thing covered and never asked her about it. Men often leave that responsibility up to the woman and will expect them to get their tubes tied before they consider getting themselves snipped. Something that is a safer and even reversible process. It is also possible that she did learn about something like the morning-after pill and she did use it but it did not work. It is a common misconception that the pill will stop a pregnancy, when in fact it will only work if the egg has not been released yet. That's how it stops pregnancy. It does not prevent a released egg from being fertilized. Most people are never told that. 🧐

All that said, I am thankful that no matter what, we do have Theron now because of Malcom and Satele. 💌 Also, I love the idea that the Force could be used to prevent pregnancy. That would be awesome! 😁

[cannibithobbal]

4 minutes ago, yenzin said:

I have never tortured Ivan on my character so I don't know how that scene goes. Does Marr really make Theron do it? That is awful! Poor Theron! 😥 Both my BH and agent would not have hesitated to torture Ivan themselves in order to save Theron from having to do so. 😣 My agent would have easily gotten that information in no time too!

Wait, Theron helps torture him?  wut?  😐

I would love to see the agent extract that information, ngl. 

Part of me wishes that the choice in that scene allowed PC to interrogate instead of just Marr and Satele (like, a three-way choice), but also, you get to talk with Theron during the interrogation and I wouldn't wanna lose that scene haha

7 minutes ago, yenzin said:

Agreed. I got it on both my BH and JC and I do believe it worked better for my JC. 

ngl, I wish for the letters they did a little more tailoring to a) what faction and b) what class it is being sent to.  I mean, it's not like dialogue needs to be recorded so as far as character stuff goes it is a super cheap and easy option.  It would be nice if they made the letters more personally tailored, even just a little bit.

10 minutes ago, yenzin said:

All that said, I am thankful that no matter what, we do have Theron now because of Malcom and Satele. 💌 

Same ❤️

ty for the illicit love affair, Satele and Malcolm, we wouldn't be here without you.

[eabevella]

58 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

I think it's definitely agree to disagree on this one. 

I completely agree on the imperial story being more dangerous and that Marr might potentially want to use Theron against Satele or that she might be worried that he would, but fundamentally I don't find calling someone by their first name to be showing any particular level of personal feelings, to me that's just... normal.  And literally everyone else is calling him "Theron."  On republic side (can't remember imperial) MARR even calls Theron by his first name.  I think if she was like "my son found this info for us" THAT would make no sense and would be too personal, but just saying "Theron" instead of "my agent" would just be... normal. 

More important to any of that, Marr is a super powerful force user, on par with Satele herself.  He would easily be able to feel for himself whether Satele has strong personal feelings about Theron or not that he could potentially exploit (if he was actually after that), her calling him by his name vs a cold generic title would not make a difference in that. 

The more I think about it the more I dislike it, as it feels like the writers were just lazy and couldn't think of a decent recent for Theron to tell an imperial his life story without him being mad enough to vent about it.  🤷‍♀️  I love Theron and Satele's relationship arc on republic side, do not like that being messed with on imperial side.

I think if Theron were just.... a bit sad but pretending he isn't instead of mad and venting about the "agent" thing it would at least be closer to in line with their republic relationship, but, it still wouldn't be enough for me to fully like it.

Oh man, I haven't even got that far yet but hoo boy, yeah, Theron hates Suresh with the burning passion of a thousand suns lmao  That would definitely be an.... interesting conversation with the BH 😅

I think I would be interested to read that.  I doubt it would be enough to turn me around as the interactions we do see in game are yeaaars later on Iokath so I consider those to be Theron's most up-to-date feelings about it.  But that would be interesting to see for sure.

I am realizing I never actually played Makeb on imperial, I just skipped right past it.  Hm, maybe I will give that a go sometime.

But yeah, I agree, of the stories I have played on both sides, I just vastly prefer republic.  Even Ziost which is basically the same, I feel like the republic version weirdly gives just a little bit more detail about what's happening.  I have not gotten past KotET yet on imperial (getting there!) but based on the things I have heard about the story, I am sure I will feel the same.  I mean, case and point: imperials don't get to meet Zenith.  That's automatically worse to me 😉

I think it will be fun to do the the saboteur story though.

Makeb is the only expansion that have two true different stories for each side that happen at the same time.

It also clarify a lot regarding the actual outcome of Corellia.

Spoiler

Darth Marr basically admitted that the Empire is losing. He said they needed Makeb to survive because they have this isotope-5 thing. Turned out the isotope-5 ships were the only ships that can barely go head-to-head with the Eternal Empire.

Also there's a hot Sith Lord on the Imp side for the male toon to flirt and kiss him lol

And Saresh sucked hard at the end of Makeb. My JK saved a lot of people and she's pissed about refugee problem? Geese, I know she's a politician, but she didn't even bother to pretend 🙄

So many people hate Makeb because the map sucks but I love it because it's the last unique story we have, and the last time our companions will comment on the scenery etc.

41 minutes ago, yenzin said:

I too find it strange that Theon opens up more to an Imperial player. I played BH first and it was odd playing JC afterwards. I felt as if I got to know him less even though he seemed to trust my JC easier and I got more screen time with him. 🤔

I have never tortured Ivan on my character so I don't know how that scene goes. Does Marr really make Theron do it? That is awful! Poor Theron! 😥 Both my BH and agent would not have hesitated to torture Ivan themselves in order to save Theron from having to do so. 😣 My agent would have easily gotten that information in no time too!

Agreed. I got it on both my BH and JC and I do believe it worked better for my JC. 

 

 

You all are welcome for the videos. I hope they helped. I was forced to go to bed before the Republic one finished uploading. It still had 42 minutes to go at the time. It's available to watch now if anyone still wants to see it. 

 

The Star Wars universe is so very advanced. Contraceptives would definitely be a thing. Maybe the Jedi aren't allowed to use them or are not taught how to use them. The Jedi preach a lot about the dangers of attachments and relationships. They aren't forbidden from having children, but they are forbidden from keeping them. (Behind the scenes section.) It is possible that the Jedi would preach abstinence and celibacy first and their sex education would be severely lacking. Completely believable as many US schools and parents fail when it comes to sex education. So let's say, the teenage male and female Jedi are told to abstain, and they don't learn about contraceptions, or exactly where and how babies happen. 🤔

The lack of contraceptive education/availability could also be due to the Jedi Order Doctrine. Jedi is a religion too. It is a monastic regime. They essentially worship the Force and they constantly need Force-sensitive children from outside the Order because they forbid their members from keeping their own. By denying proper sex education and access to contraceptives, they can ensure that some of the children born from accidents are Force-sensitive. While Force sensitivity can come randomly into bloodlines, it has been shown again and again, that it does present more strongly in Force-sensitive bloodlines, Jedi, and Sith. Sure, those children won't be raised by the mother, and will be passed on to an orphanage or equivalent upon birth, but it is possible that that baby will make it back to the Order by the time the child is five. Thus, adding to the Order's population. In this way too, they have to worry slightly less about acquiring Force-sensitives through some other way.

This could also explain Theron's Shan name. Maybe the Jedi are told/taught that if they do have babies, the babies have to carry their last name. This makes it easier for the Order to track the baby down later in order to test the child for Force-sensitivity. 😶

Satele's pregnancy was due to a relationship. I have not read the books/comics, but I don't think they cover why Malcolm would not have used some sort of contraceptive himself. Maybe he secretly wanted a child or never got snipped because he was celibate before Satele. Maybe they unbelievably don't make condoms that fit him properly. 🤷🏽🤭 I also don't believe the books/comics cover how or why Satele got pregnant when it is very apparent that she never intended to have a child and is very committed/dedicated to the Order. Maybe she was not taught about contraceptives. She never even learned the word while growing up and thus had no idea it was possible to prevent pregnancy. Maybe she was taught that children were a will of the Force and no matter how much intercourse she had, she would not get pregnant if the Force did not will it. 🤷🏽😂

Maybe Malcom assumed she had the contraceptive thing covered and never asked her about it. Men often leave that responsibility up to the woman and will expect them to get their tubes tied before they consider getting themselves snipped. Something that is a safer and even reversible process. It is also possible that she did learn about something like the morning-after pill and she did use it but it did not work. It is a common misconception that the pill will stop a pregnancy, when in fact it will only work if the egg has not been released yet. That's how it stops pregnancy. It does not prevent a released egg from being fertilized. Most people are never told that. 🧐

All that said, I am thankful that no matter what, we do have Theron now because of Malcom and Satele. 💌 Also, I love the idea that the Force could be used to prevent pregnancy. That would be awesome! 😁

I don't think Theron did any torture. If you tell Satele to question the guard, Marr was very unhappy. If you tell Marr to go violence, Satele was unhappy. In both of the scene after, Theron (and Land) told you what they found. I picked the light side option because my agent wanted to question the guard himself, he didn't want Darth Marr to accidentally kill the guard in rage. And geese, Darth Marr can out done the agent in the sarcasm department.

And I totally agreed with what you said regarding the... conceiving issue. I just wanna say: educate everyone, even if you don't use it, it's still useful. ><

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by eabevella

[cannibithobbal]

14 minutes ago, eabevella said:

Makeb is the only expansion that have two true different stories for each side that happen at the same time.

It also clarify a lot regarding the actual outcome of Corellia.

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Darth Marr basically admitted that the Empire is losing. He said they needed Makeb to survive because they have this isotope-5 thing. Turned out the isotope-5 ships were the only ships that can barely go head-to-head with the Eternal Empire.

Also there's a hot Sith Lord on the Imp side for the male toon to flirt and kiss him lol

And Saresh sucked hard at the end of Makeb. My JK saved a lot of people and she's pissed about refugee problem? Geese, I know she's a politician, but she didn't even bother to pretend 🙄

So many people hate Makeb because the map sucks but I love it because it's the last unique story we have, and the last time our companions will comment on the scenery etc.

Ok, that does sound really cool, I might play my agent through that story then!

As for Suresh, let's just say..... my feeling and Theron's are the same on that one 😂  (I mentioned I was super tempted to kill her, right?  I so wanted to kill her lmao)

I haven't played Makeb in so long I did not remember that companions actually said stuff in that story either!  If so I am officially mad at myself for skipping it on my second JC noooo

[eabevella]

3 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

Ok, that does sound really cool, I might play my agent through that story then!

As for Suresh, let's just say..... my feeling and Theron's are the same on that one 😂  (I mentioned I was super tempted to kill her, right?  I so wanted to kill her lmao)

I haven't played Makeb in so long I did not remember that companions actually said stuff in that story either!  If so I am officially mad at myself for skipping it on my second JC noooo

I was so angry at Saresh after all the leg work I've done lol

Companions say stuffs in specific location. Scourge will admire the raw power of the nature and says only a true Sith may come close to as powerful. He'll also criticizes the Hutt's bad taste and says even the Dark Council isn't so extra. He's so funny sometimes XD

[yenzin]

16 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

I think that it depends on how you play as well. My BH cheats the Imps as often as she can, kills only when she has to and in my HC...

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she killed Master Jarro due to an equipment malfunction not because that was her plan.

When...

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Gets ambushed by the SIS and the Padawan.

I HC she left them unconscious. As for being Imperial, she isn't. She's a Mando!

Agreed in that BH can completely work with a Theron relationship and does for mine. To quote the BH, "The Empire is a lucrative client, but they don't own me." BH and Smuggler can both be very grey/neutral classes. I just started another BH and so far he is very neutral and professional. He kills a lot and can thus come off as ruthless, but it is just a job to him. It is never personal. I have had several opportunities to say as much to marks. I constantly go back to the recorded scenes of the quest acquisition to make sure my choices are falling within the boundary of the contract. Ex: Kill everyone at the auction. Sorry, Bilikin, you have to die. Hmm.. okay, Juda, you knew about the auction, and you helped set it up, but you weren't at the auction, so you get to live. 😄 This has actually been difficult for me but it's getting easier. Especially if I keep repeating to myself, 'It's just a job.' 😅 Makes it easier to kill the people I personally don't want to kill (especially if the marks are innocent and have not done anything wrong), and to do the things I personally don't want to do. That said, I really love the BH story. ❤️

BH could just as easily work for the Republic without a problem. Just as a smuggler could work for the Empire if they paid him. Really, it's too bad BH and smuggler weren't both neutral factions to begin with. It would have been awesome to take jobs from both sides. 

Jedi Master: Hunter, we are forbidden from acting directly, and your name has come to our attention. We want you to go and... take care of Darth Malignant. 

BH: Are we talking gun-play or a stern talking to?

Jedi Master: We need him to stop causing trouble by sending his acolytes to the Jedi Temples to steal our Padawans. Make sure he is stopped. Permanently.

BH: Let's get more specific about my pay. 

11 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

............y'all are really making me so tempted to make a male agent and romance him with Theron now btw.  gdi.  😅   I don't need another character rn.... (I say to myself as I play through my 3rd JK dupe that I made just to rerecord things lmao)

Here, have three terrible flirt lines to help you hold off longer if you need to. 😉 The relationship lines do get better as the relationship progresses but these are all terrible. 😂 I didn't take the first one, the second one's delivery always makes me laugh so I didn't take that one either, and the third flirt really should not be labelled as a flirt. We need better flirt lines, BW! Get on that. Chop, chop! 🤣

9 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

The only issue I have with this take on it is the fact that when Theron is venting to PC about Satele calling him agent he says "she calls me 'her agent', like it's sheer coincidence that we have the same name", which implies that Marr (and everyone else in the room) already knows his full name, so Satele referring to Theron as "Theron" in front of Marr would not give Marr any information he doesn't already have. 

I get the impression that Marr already knows. His, "your agent" on the Imperial side seems almost sarcastic. Also, it's interesting that Satele doesn't call Theron by name on the Republic side until after Marr and the Imperial Troops have already left the room. 

 

 

❤️ I love reading about others' opinions of the classes and how they work with Theron or not. Such well-thought-out responses and analysis'! ❤️

[cannibithobbal]

27 minutes ago, yenzin said:

Here, have three terrible flirt lines to help you hold off longer if you need to. 😉 The relationship lines do get better as the relationship progresses but these are all terrible. 😂 I didn't take the first one, the second one's delivery always makes me laugh so I didn't take that one either, and the third flirt really should not be labelled as a flirt. We need better flirt lines, BW! Get on that. Chop, chop! 🤣

I didn't think any of those are terrible 🤣

I actually like the first one, I've never done that one since I never flirted with him on imperial until after, at his rescue

The "you got better looking" I always just found funny lol  honestly I just wish Theron's reaction was different, but, I always take that flirt anyway.  (yeah ok, maybe that one's a bit dumb, but, it's fiiiiine.)

I personally always really like the third one!  I especially like Theron's response of "we'll get a chance to talk, soon".  what can I say, I like that he wants to wait til they're in a private setting 😉

......I'll be honest though, I suffered through the entire Kira romance out of sheer morbid "I'm watching a train wreck in slow motion" determination.  After that romance, NOTHING in the Theron story is bad flirt lines in comparison 🤣  (seriously, don't play it yourself but find a recording, the lines are so cringe lmao)

27 minutes ago, yenzin said:

I get the impression that Marr already knows. His, "your agent" on the Imperial side seems almost sarcastic. Also, it's interesting that Satele doesn't call Theron by name on the Republic side until after Marr and the Imperial Troops have already left the room.

Yeah, she doesn't actually call him ANYTHING until that "Theron....?" at the end.  But she also just never has a need to with the dialogue that exists in the scene.  The imperial version the writing goes out of its way to have her refer to Theron directly when talking to Marr and call him "agent", but the republic side everyone just talks about what's going on and there is no dialogue from Satele telling Marr what Theron did because Theron, Lana, and PC just tell Marr what's going on and what they did by themselves.  Which again I think makes more sense than Satele needing to pipe in, she learned about stuff the same time Marr did 😅

Marr totally knows they are related in both versions, I am sure of it.

I actually forgot he said that sarcastic but yeah, I am sure he knows lol

Edited May 16, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[Goreshaga]

2 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

I think I would be interested to read that.  I doubt it would be enough to turn me around as the interactions we do see in game are yeaaars later on Iokath so I consider those to be Theron's most up-to-date feelings about it.  But that would be interesting to see for sure.

It'll probably not change your opinion, but maybe you'll see him a bit less badly. I do think he would've been a terrible father and he's not really good from what we've seen, but i guess he's still trying.

 

2 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

I am realizing I never actually played Makeb on imperial, I just skipped right past it.  Hm, maybe I will give that a go sometime.

But yeah, I agree, of the stories I have played on both sides, I just vastly prefer republic.  Even Ziost which is basically the same, I feel like the republic version weirdly gives just a little bit more detail about what's happening.  I have not gotten past KotET yet on imperial (getting there!) but based on the things I have heard about the story, I am sure I will feel the same.  I mean, case and point: imperials don't get to meet Zenith.  That's automatically worse to me 😉

I think it will be fun to do the the saboteur story though.

It's honestly worth it, Imp Makeb is better than Pub Maked, if only for Cytharat, it's honestly a shame he's killable because 1/ he'd have made so much sense with all the Malgus stuff as he was his apprentice, and 2/ my SI would totally have kept the romance with him, as he's the only exclusively M/M option and he's a very cool character.

Everything else, yep i like Pub side more.

2 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

Something I randomly thought of, unrelated but going back to previous topic, in regards to Theron and JK relationship. 

JK personally saved Satele's life when they became the "Hero of Tython" and stopped the atmosphere from being melted, and there's no way Theron wouldn't appreciate them for that.  My personal HC is definitely that that was part of why he recruited JK for the mission to Korriban in that timeline.

I like that Satele is a point of commonality between them also as JK works very closely with her through their whole class story (in contrast JC talks to her, like, 3 times?  lol   but JK is a ton), and as such I like the HC that JK knowing Satele so well allows them to help Theron and her mend their relationship.

...that's just my random thought for the morning.

Oh yeah, never really thought about it, but yeah JK definitely saved Satele at that moment, and Theron probably knows it.

Yeah, JK interacts a lot with her, where JC barely talks to her.

34 minutes ago, yenzin said:

Here, have three terrible flirt lines to help you hold off longer if you need to. 😉 The relationship lines do get better as the relationship progresses but these are all terrible. 😂 I didn't take the first one, the second one's delivery always makes me laugh so I didn't take that one either, and the third flirt really should not be labelled as a flirt. We need better flirt lines, BW! Get on that. Chop, chop! 🤣

I always take the [flirts] in KOTFE 9 because well we kinda have to if we want to lock the romance, but honestly the reunion is just so bad when it could've been so much better if he had been part of the rescue and had a few [flirts] here and there between KOTFE 3 and 9, he could even have been the one saving us from Arcann, having a nice moment, where he'd be our hero for once. But nope, all we got was him arriving on Odessen, two pretty lame [flirts] and then the scene to lock the romance... 😞

[cannibithobbal]

I definitely think it's lame that there is no difference in Theron reunion scene between previous romance and no previous romance.  Like, assuming I have been correctly informed, class story companions who come back later have different reunions if you romanced them before but for Theron, absolutely nothing, he is just all business basically until "we'll get a chance to talk."  I think the scene as is works fine if you didn't romance him and I actually also thought it was fine follow up for previous imperial romance also, but comes off as "???" if you romanced him on a republic character before, especially if you romanced him from the very first flirt. 

I do appreciate that the way JK VA delivers "it's great to see you, Theron" sounds inherently more excited to see him (he really emphasizes "great") than either JC or SW did in their deliveries, which makes it less awkward given their previous romance, but Theron's own comments still make little sense.  "I wasn't sure you'd remember me"????? really, Theron????  I have to HC that that's his low self-confidence and unsuredness about the status of their relationship and not wanting to presume things about the other person still feeling the same as him, but even that is a super shaky HC lol

edit, thought of something: Honestly the whole scene could be almost (if not entirely) fixed by just having a flirt option to respond to "I wasn't sure you'd remember me" which references the fact that they were together before so of course they would not have forgotten him, and then have Theron have a romantic response back, like him being relieved or really happy because he wasn't sure if they still felt that way.  Could even have Theron be like "wasn't sure you still felt that way after so long", and the PC pointing out it wasn't 5 years for them.

DEVS, IS IT TOO LATE TO FIX THIS?  lol  (they're fixing dialogue in a scene for Onslaught, it's not impossible!  lol)

edit again: the game clearly has a way to internally know if you romanced Theron before after starting KotFE because you get the letter from him, so it would have made so much sense that if you romanced him previous it would trigger availability of a flirt option to reference previous romance. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[yenzin]

8 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

My JC is also 100% LS who always tries to make the best choices, and was completely romance-free during his class story (that being said, Nadia being the only option made that easy, i like Nadia, but her romance is all kind of wrong, i ended up stuck in that romance on my first JC because i tried to be nice to her after she lost her father and i absolutely hated it).

My JK on the other hand is a lot more sarcastic, and can sometimes be pretty antagonistic with some people, mainly enemies as she can usually judge people pretty fast. She also has a tendency to become a tad bit more agressive when someone she cares about is threatened (that was mostly about Kira during the class story as she sees her as a very close friend, the closest thing she has to a sister). She didn't kill Attrius the first time i played that, though she was really close and stoped only because Lana told her Theron was still alive but needed to go back to Odessen ASAP. I think she'll kill him the next though, not just because he nearly killed Theron, but also because he threatened all the people on Odessen, so that's also a way to send a message that she'll do everything necessary to keep the people under her protection safe. So, while she's mostly LS, she also has a dark side, and for me it made her a lot more interesting than my JC as a character.

Not to mention the BH is pretty much directly responsible for Saresh becoming the new Chancellor, which Theron may hold against them as he's not exactly her biggest fan.

Thanks for all that.

So, i definitely like the pub side better.

I do the same but it's my Hero and Tython and Wrath fought togather against Malgus and worked together since Manaan. And my SW who saw quite right away there was something going on between my JK and Theron. She also worked with Theron and Lana during the 5 years my JK was frozen. But yeah it's sometimes quite difficult to juggle between the two sides.

 

There is a short story set after the events on Yavin where we can see Theron and Malcom having a meal together and trying to bond. They are really trying but they're not very good at it, like they don't really know where to start and they're both quite nervous.

Then it is quite obvious Theron would care more about his mother, he always knew who she was and why she gave him away, he met his father only during Annihilation, and never really had any time to get used to who his father was, not to mention Master Zho raised him, and he's the one Theron sees as his father. Likewise Malcom never knew he had a son until he figured it out when he first met Theron, he never had time to process the whole thing and doesn't know how to be a father. But yeah he's probably more willing to have a relationship than Theron is, especially after the 5 years timeskip, as it seems they had a huge disagreement when Theron joined Lana to build the Alliance.

I feel quite the same here.

Honestly, outside of RotHC which is infinitely more interesting on Imp side, i like all the other expansions more on Pub side, but especially everything post KOTET.

2 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

I think I would be interested to read that.  I doubt it would be enough to turn me around as the interactions we do see in game are yeaaars later on Iokath so I consider those to be Theron's most up-to-date feelings about it.  But that would be interesting to see for sure.

Here it is. 😉 Jace Malcolm & Theron Shan: Regrets | A SWTOR Short Story, "Narrated" using Jenifer Hale's, aka Satele Shan's voice. 🤭 

The pronunciation of Theron in it is... different. 🤣 Also, the audio quality of Theron's voice is not the best. Still, this was very interesting to listen to. Thanks for telling us about it. I didn't know this short story existed. 😍

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by yenzin
short story title

[cannibithobbal]

52 minutes ago, yenzin said:

Here it is. 😉 "Narrated" using Jenifer Hale's, aka Satele Shan's voice. 🤭 

The pronunciation of Theron in it is... different. 🤣 Also, the audio quality of Theron's voice is not the best. Still, this was very interesting to listen to. Thanks for telling us about it. I didn't know this short story existed. 😍

 

Thanks for the link!

.....off to listen...... aaaand back!

omg, the Theron voice is so bad lmao  unintentionally hilarious and also extremely hard to understand.

Surprised how well the other two are done though, considering, honestly a bit creepy if I think about it too much lol 😶

I don't honestly know how I feel about the actual story, especially with how bad the Theron dialogue sounds so it's hard to get any sense of emotion out of him lol  But also, Theron references the "her agent" thing which makes me think, is this set in the imperial version of the story?  it must be, right?  that would explain some of the dialogue about Satele more imo.

I appreciate Malcolm giving Theron more insight into Satele and telling him that she feels things but just hides it really well.  Fits 100% with how I have always viewed Satele as a character, feels nice to know at least one writer totally agrees with me 😁  But on the other hand Theron talking like he does about Satele to prompt those insights from Malcolm feels odd.... I mean I know he is not comfortable with Malcolm so he is not gonna know what to say in general, but, still.  Again, it makes sense to me though if it is set in the imperial story like I said.  I'm just going to assume it is because that makes more sense to me.

Edited May 16, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[Goreshaga]

1 hour ago, cannibithobbal said:

I have to HC that that's his low self-confidence and unsuredness about the status of their relationship and not wanting to presume things about the other person still feeling the same as him, but even that is a super shaky HC lol

Honestly my HC will have the whole thing happen very differently.

When you've read Annihilation and seen how far he can go to help Teff'ith, who he only considers a friend, there's absolutely no way he'd just sit on his butt waiting for someone else to rescue the person he loves and has been waiting 5 years to meet again.

So, it's not entirely set rn, but my HC is probably going to be something like that : he infiltrated Zakuul, found where my JK was, was the one who found out about the carbonite poisoning and prepared everything for Lana, Koth and my SW to come and get my JK out of here. They shared a short moment then before he left to serve as a diversion (not entirely sure yet if he'll do that with T7 or replace him entirely as they basically serve the same purpose, and tbh Theron would have worked much better than T7 in that situation for all non JK classes). I think they'll then reunite later on Asylum, and he'll be the one to rescue her from Arcann, they'll share another nice moment and he'll probably leave again after making sure she's alright to prepare the various things he had to prepare on Odessen (if i decide to remove T7 from the rescue, he'll just show up with the ship as i HC my JK sent him to Theron when Marr's ship was attacked), and then we're back to quite the same setting, except for the [filrts] on Odessen as they're not really needed anymore, or they can be slightly different before the cantina scene.

[cannibithobbal]

1 hour ago, Goreshaga said:

It'll probably not change your opinion, but maybe you'll see him a bit less badly. I do think he would've been a terrible father and he's not really good from what we've seen, but i guess he's still trying.

Yeah, after listening to it, I definitely think he is at least trying, and Malcolm saying nice things about Satele definitely makes me think more highly of him than I did before. 

Like you say, I still think he would have been a terrible father, glad Theron didn't meet him til he was an adult.  And I still don't really think he is the father Theron needs even now, but maybe he is at least slightly less bad for Theron than I thought from previous context.  I think it's good if Theron can talk to him occasionally, and at the point in the story where that is set I think Theron maybe had more inner need for connection with him, but at least in Iokath and later, I still just think he's better off keeping Malcolm at a distance.  Not never see him again or anything, but, he doesn't need him as a father.  imo.

[cannibithobbal]

52 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

Honestly my HC will have the whole thing happen very differently.

When you've read Annihilation and seen how far he can go to help Teff'ith, who he only considers a friend, there's absolutely no way he'd just sit on his butt waiting for someone else to rescue the person he loves and has been waiting 5 years to meet again.

So, it's not entirely set rn, but my HC is probably going to be something like that : he infiltrated Zakuul, found where my JK was, was the one who found out about the carbonite poisoning and prepared everything for Lana, Koth and my SW to come and get my JK out of here. They shared a short moment then before he left to serve as a diversion (not entirely sure yet if he'll do that with T7 or replace him entirely as they basically serve the same purpose, and tbh Theron would have worked much better than T7 in that situation for all non JK classes). I think they'll then reunite later on Asylum, and he'll be the one to rescue her from Arcann, they'll share another nice moment and he'll probably leave again after making sure she's alright to prepare the various things he had to prepare on Odessen (if i decide to remove T7 from the rescue, he'll just show up with the ship as i HC my JK sent him to Theron when Marr's ship was attacked), and then we're back to quite the same setting, except for the [filrts] on Odessen as they're not really needed anymore, or they can be slightly different before the cantina scene.

I definitely wish Theron was there for the rescue.  If I could change one thing about all of KotFE/KotET it would be that. 

Personally my brain is too literal and painfully unable to HC stuff that totally contradicts the story that exists, so my HC is that: Theron and Lana had been in contact but not working directly together, and Theron for his part went on another extremely important mission elsewhere, and while he was on that mission, Lana got a safe window to go to Zakuul and didn't know how long it would last and felt she couldn't wait for Theron.  She then sent him a message telling him she was going and apologized for the fact she could not wait.  Theron got the message too late to stop her and while he understood why she did it and desperately hoped that she was able to succeed without him, he hated that he missed the ability to go with them.  He thought about dropping everything and following on his own but realized that could potentially put the whole op in danger (not to mention ruin the one he was on currently) and anxiously waited instead.

As for why he didn't bother showing up on Odessen until they were literally done building the base, I honestly got nothing lmao, "he was busy" is all I've got.  And honestly I always just find it a little funny that he lets them do all the hard work then shows up "like what you've done with the place" haha  so that aspect doesn't bother me, I let it slide.

I want to add a flirt line after his first comment so badly though.  I don't know if I can convince my brain to headcanon that I get a more romantic exchange there when it wasn't actually available, but man I really wish it was available, it would fix that whole scene a lot for me. 

 

edit: ok so something I literally just thought about: when Theron is like "I've got something for you" and PC responds "you found my people?", and then Theron brings out the ship instead.... that exchange kind of super implies that even if they hadn't spoken to him, the PC KNEW what Theron was up to and why he hadn't shown up in person yet, namely that Theron was out there searching for and recruiting people for them. 

I can easily HC out of that that part of Theron wanted to show right up and see the PC right away after finding out they were on Odessen but that he was actually a little nervous about the status of their relationship when he sent that "for when you wake up" letter but then even after they woke up he never got a response 😥  so he tried and failed to find their people for them but still made sure when he came back he didn't come back empty-handed (hence the ship)... and then he also wasn't sure how to be when he met with them (it has been 5 years of him thinking about them and not knowing if they have thought about him at all or were even still interested after Ziost and how he kind of just walked away, and then the lack of response to his love letter!) so he played it casual even though internally he wanted so badly to just blurt out how much he missed them and how much he thought about them and everything.  But he's a good spy, he can play it casual, maybe even overcompensates and plays it too casual, but then he says a lot of the things he wanted to say after they kiss in the cantina and he knows the PC definitely feels the same as him still.

Yes, that's my HC.  That HC makes me feel a lot better about it actually.  Still wish Theron was just there for the whole rescue, but, working with what I have I actually like that a lot. 

.......ty for joining for this live brainstorming session, I'll see myself out now 😅

Edited May 16, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[Goreshaga]

48 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

I definitely wish Theron was there for the rescue.  If I could change one thing about all of KotFE/KotET it would be that. 

Personally my brain is too literal and painfully unable to HC stuff that totally contradicts the story that exists, so my HC is that: Theron and Lana had been in contact but not working directly together, and Theron for his part went on another extremely important mission elsewhere, and while he was on that mission, Lana got a safe window to go to Zakuul and didn't know how long it would last and felt she couldn't wait for Theron.  She then sent him a message telling him she was going and apologized for the fact she could not wait.  Theron got the message too late to stop her and while he understood why she did it and desperately hoped that she was able to succeed without him, he hated that he missed the ability to go with them.  He thought about dropping everything and following on his own but realized that could potentially put the whole op in danger (not to mention ruin the one he was on currently) and anxiously waited instead.

As for why he didn't bother showing up on Odessen until they were literally done building the base, I honestly got nothing lmao, "he was busy" is all I've got.  And honestly I always just find it a little funny that he lets them do all the hard work then shows up "like what you've done with the place" haha  so that aspect doesn't bother me, I let it slide.

I want to add a flirt line after his first comment so badly though.  I don't know if I can convince my brain to headcanon that I get a more romantic exchange there when it wasn't actually available, but man I really wish it was available, it would fix that whole scene a lot for me. 

 

edit: ok so something I literally just thought about: when Theron is like "I've got something for you" and PC responds "you found my people?", and then Theron brings out the ship instead.... that exchange kind of super implies that even if they hadn't spoken to him, the PC KNEW what Theron was up to and why he hadn't shown up in person yet, namely that Theron was out there searching for and recruiting people for them. 

I can easily HC out of that that part of Theron wanted to show right up and see the PC right away after finding out they were on Odessen but that he was actually a little nervous about the status of their relationship when he sent that "for when you wake up" letter but then even after they woke up he never got a response 😥  so he tried and failed to find their people for them but still made sure when he came back he didn't come back empty-handed (hence the ship)... and then he also wasn't sure how to be when he met with them (it has been 5 years of him thinking about them and not knowing if they have thought about him at all or were even still interested after Ziost and how he kind of just walked away, and then the lack of response to his love letter!) so he played it casual even though internally he wanted so badly to just blurt out how much he missed them and how much he thought about them and everything.  But he's a good spy, he can play it casual, maybe even overcompensates and plays it too casual, but then he says a lot of the things he wanted to say after they kiss in the cantina and he knows the PC definitely feels the same as him still.

Yes, that's my HC.  That HC makes me feel a lot better about it actually.  Still wish Theron was just there for the whole rescue, but, working with what I have I actually like that a lot. 

.......ty for joining for this live brainstorming session, I'll see myself out now 😅

It honestly work, and it was pretty much my own HC when KOTFE came out, as i didn't want to change the story too much. But, the more i've replayed it, the more i thought about it, the more i realised how much Theron had been sidelined compared to Lana and the less satisfied i am with what we actually got (even more so after i read Annihilation), which is why i decided to change it to what i really wish we had instead, especially since the later versions of my JK didn't really get along with Lana, so her being there alone while Theron is not there actually makes literally no sense at all.

She didn't even tell Lana about having Valkorion in her head, which also shows something a bit odd. If you tell Lana about him, Theron knows when you reunite with him on Odessen as he mentions it. But if you don't tell her, even though she finds out on Asylum before going to Odessen, he doesn't know as he doesn't mention it. Don't know why she didn't tell him tbh because the fact my JK doesn't trust Lana definitely doesn't mean she would not trust Theron with that knowledge, quite the opposite actually.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Goreshaga

[cannibithobbal]

23 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

It honestly work, and it was pretty much my own HC when KOTFE came out, as i didn't want to change the story too much. But, the more i've replayed it, the more i thought about it, the more i realised how much Theron had been sidelined compared to Lana and the less satisfied i am with what we actually got (even more so after i read Annihilation), which is why i decided to change it to what i really wish we had instead, especially since the later versions of my JK didn't really get along with Lana, so her being there alone while Theron is not there actually makes literally no sense at all.

She didn't even tell Lana about having Valkorion in her head, which also shows something a bit odd. If you tell Lana about him, Theron knows when you reunite with him on Odessen as he mentions it. But if you don't tell her, even though she finds out on Asylum before going to Odessen, he doesn't know as he doesn't mention it. Don't know why she didn't tell him tbh because the fact my JK doesn't trust Lana definitely doesn't mean she would not trust Theron with that knowledge, quite the opposite actually.

oh, weird.  I have only ever told Lana about Valkorian on every character so I never thought about the fact that Theron would have a different response when he shows up, or that there wouldn't be a place to tell him.  I am curious to hear what he says instead of the "I wasn't sure based on what Lana said you went through, what you're going through" line, if he doesn't know.  Does he just say the first part?

[Goreshaga]

58 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

oh, weird.  I have only ever told Lana about Valkorian on every character so I never thought about the fact that Theron would have a different response when he shows up, or that there wouldn't be a place to tell him.  I am curious to hear what he says instead of the "I wasn't sure based on what Lana said you went through, what you're going through" line, if he doesn't know.  Does he just say the first part?

Yeah i was surprised the first time i decided not to tell her, hm, i don't really remember the exact dialogue, but the whole "I wasn't sure based on what Lana said you went through, what you're going through" is just not there from what i remember, so his dialogue is shorter.

I have no idea why they decided to have a variation here, because even if you don't tell Lana, she still learns about it before going to Odessen and reuniting with Theron anyways, so it doesn't really make sense that she'd tell him if you tell her, but that she'd not tell him if you decide not to tell her. Especially since you can justify not telling her because of her behavior on Ziost regarding Master Suro (iirc the PC basically tells her "i had to protect myself"), and Theron has a completely different behavior than her whan it comes to Suro, so there's no real justification for her to keep it from him.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Goreshaga

[JakRoanin]

12 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

Not to mention the BH is pretty much directly responsible for Saresh becoming the new Chancellor, which Theron may hold against them as he's not exactly her biggest fan.

Umm, my BH got a wonderful thank you from him for sparing the Forner Chancellor and taking out Darth Bad Guy.

6 hours ago, yenzin said:

I have never tortured Ivan on my character so I don't know how that scene goes. Does Marr really make Theron do it? That is awful! Poor Theron! 😥 Both my BH and agent would not have hesitated to torture Ivan themselves in order to save Theron from having to do so. 😣 My agent would have easily gotten that information in no time too!

No, Theron doesn't torture him, Marr just "helpfully" reminds Satele that a big part of Theron's job and skill set involves torture. Theron later admits his dirty hands in Anarchy in Paradise. Our boy's no saint.

[yenzin]

4 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

I didn't think any of those are terrible 🤣

I actually like the first one, I've never done that one since I never flirted with him on imperial until after, at his rescue

The "you got better looking" I always just found funny lol  honestly I just wish Theron's reaction was different, but, I always take that flirt anyway.  (yeah ok, maybe that one's a bit dumb, but, it's fiiiiine.)

I personally always really like the third one!  I especially like Theron's response of "we'll get a chance to talk, soon".  what can I say, I like that he wants to wait til they're in a private setting 😉

......I'll be honest though, I suffered through the entire Kira romance out of sheer morbid "I'm watching a train wreck in slow motion" determination.  After that romance, NOTHING in the Theron story is bad flirt lines in comparison 🤣  (seriously, don't play it yourself but find a recording, the lines are so cringe lmao)

Ohh! Yeah, you are right. Because the flirt follows the, 'Defrief inside' line, the, 'What do I need to go to talk to you?!' completely works. 😂Theron is constantly in Serious Mission Mode. 

Yeh, I'll find a video of it. 🤣

4 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

It's honestly worth it, Imp Makeb is better than Pub Maked, if only for Cytharat, it's honestly a shame he's killable because 1/ he'd have made so much sense with all the Malgus stuff as he was his apprentice, and 2/ my SI would totally have kept the romance with him, as he's the only exclusively M/M option and he's a very cool character.

I always take the [flirts] in KOTFE 9 because well we kinda have to if we want to lock the romance, but honestly the reunion is just so bad when it could've been so much better if he had been part of the rescue and had a few [flirts] here and there between KOTFE 3 and 9, he could even have been the one saving us from Arcann, having a nice moment, where he'd be our hero for once. But nope, all we got was him arriving on Odessen, two pretty lame [flirts] and then the scene to lock the romance... 😞

I liked Cytharat so much! I totally pursued him on my BH. It was before SoR so completely okay. I saved him, of course. Never heard from him again. I hope he is still out there somewhere, being wonderful. 🌈

Ohhh, so I tested that back when my agent first got to Chapter 09. I don't know if it was because my agent had met Theron back in Shadow of Revan or if it was changed, but not taking those two flirt options still leaves the opportunity to lock in the romance with Theron in the cantina. I was able to not take either flirt and I was still able to flirt with him in the cantina. Which was so weird. In my official playthrough, I skipped the first flirt but took the one in the briefing room. There really is not enough buildup.

I keep trying to imagine what Theron would have said had we not been robbed of a rescue, and I constantly get stuck. I keep projecting! My latest version has Theron learning Mando'a during those five years because he regretted missing his chance to get to know my BH better and ignoring his every attempt to reach out and connect due to my character being Imperial. So when he learns that his past flame is not, in fact, dead, he brushes up on his Mando'a and uses it during the first conversation on Odessen. Then there is a hug. And hand-holding. Which is so out of character! Argh! Why is this so hard?! 😫

 

And here! A collection of all side stories and mission reports. Including one Night in the Dealer's Den, Regreats, and Chasing Copero. Enjoy. 😉❤️

[cannibithobbal]

1 hour ago, yenzin said:

Ohh! Yeah, you are right. Because the flirt follows the, 'Defrief inside' line, the, 'What do I need to go to talk to you?!' completely works. 😂Theron is constantly in Serious Mission Mode.

He really is 😂

Honestly, that aspect of his personality is why his intro scene does not bother as much as it could.  Like, I definitely think we should have gotten an alt or a flirt or something extra to reflect a previous relationship if we romanced him before. 

But, in spite of me wishing we had that, nothing in the scene actually feels out of character for Theron to me, at all.  Because Serious On Task Mission Mode is his natural most comfortable state.  Like, it is obvious a lot that he is much less comfortable with more personal interactions that are not business, especially in a public setting (he always seems to be more comfortable in private) and when he is unconfident or unsure how to act in a situation he defaults to All Business, as he is more comfortable there.

Like I said with my HC before, I think it is highly likely that Theron is unsure if the PC still has feelings for him (is probably downright afraid they totally don't - both because of the lack of response to his letter and also I honestly think the poor thing prolly forgets it hasn't been five years for them), and he knows they have the Emperor in their head and that even if they still have feelings that renewing a 5 year old romance may be really low on their priority list.  So I think the way he acts as like "play it super casual, get to business, wait for them to show their feelings first" is very in character and makes sense for him. 

(Also worth remembering that just by virtue of game design, Theron almost never initiates anything romantic - he responds to flirts but does not do them first - a major exception obviously being his "let's get it on" proposition on Yavin lol)

So basically, it makes sense to me that he starts in Serious On Task Official Stuff Mission Mode, but then after he gets the flirty line to talk I think he gets more confident that maybe this means they still share his feelings, so then he definitely wants to wait to talk in private.

Oh, and I think it fits equally well that Theron is too good at playing it casual and that my characters (well, JK as  he is the only one who would be affected) aren't sure if Theron actually still has feelings for THEM, regardless of the letter.  So like, he acts excited to see Theron and tries to initiate flirts but isn't sure because he's getting mixed signals from this boy who is self-confessed to be not great at relationships lol

At least that is how I see it.  It fits, for me. 

If I could I'd add in some better flirts in the beginning (the "you got better looking" I stand by just being a funny cute moment but it would be so much better if it was like the second or third flirt and not the very first flirt back! I just have to HC that they've both kinda forgotten how to flirt well and reverted back to the way they flirted awkwardly when they started in forged alliances lol) and it would really be nice to be able to tell Theron "of course I haven't forgotten you" as an option, whether it's framed as a flirt or not.  But I can work with what I have too lol

 .........that went on longer than I planned haha

Edited May 16, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[Goreshaga]

51 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Umm, my BH got a wonderful thank you from him for sparing the Forner Chancellor and taking out Darth Bad Guy.

Is that specific to flirting with him ?

I've done SoR with a couple BHs, one who killed Janarus, and at least one who didn't and i don't remember Theron bringing that up, while i clearly remember Jorgan reacting differently to a BH who killed him compared to a BH who spared him when they meet during KOTFE.

54 minutes ago, yenzin said:

I liked Cytharat so much! I totally pursued him on my BH. It was before SoR so completely okay. I saved him, of course. Never heard from him again. I hope he is still out there somewhere, being wonderful. 🌈

I really liked him too, and he'd just have been the perfect romance for my SI. It's really a shame he's killable and ended up forgotten, probably never to appear ever again. I'll try Rivix with my Si, but i get the feeling that will end up being disappointing, as i'm pretty sure, he'll also get a kill option at some point, like the majority of male LIs.

57 minutes ago, yenzin said:

Ohhh, so I tested that back when my agent first got to Chapter 09. I don't know if it was because my agent had met Theron back in Shadow of Revan or if it was changed, but not taking those two flirt options still leaves the opportunity to lock in the romance with Theron in the cantina. I was able to not take either flirt and I was still able to flirt with him in the cantina. Which was so weird. In my official playthrough, I skipped the first flirt but took the one in the briefing room. There really is not enough buildup.

Never tried not taking the [flirts] tbh, i really feared that'd mess something up and i wouldn't be able to romance him, especially since i didn't romance him on the very first version of my JK, and regreted it afterwards.

58 minutes ago, yenzin said:

I keep trying to imagine what Theron would have said had we not been robbed of a rescue, and I constantly get stuck. I keep projecting! My latest version has Theron learning Mando'a during those five years because he regretted missing his chance to get to know my BH better and ignoring his every attempt to reach out and connect due to my character being Imperial. So when he learns that his past flame is not, in fact, dead, he brushes up on his Mando'a and uses it during the first conversation on Odessen. Then there is a hug. And hand-holding. Which is so out of character! Argh! Why is this so hard?! 😫

Yeah it's quite hard to find what he'd say that'd be completely in character for him. Might be difficult learning Mando'a without anyone to teach him

With the way i HC the rescue mission, i imagine that first my JK would use the "who are you" line with Lana, pretending not to recognize her because of how things ended the last time they saw each other, but that she'd instantly recognize both my SW and Theron. She'd probably have some kind of flirty comment to Theron, and he'd probably respond with something along the lines of "it's not really the right time" or "we don't have time right now" as they'd definitely be in a hurry to get her out of there before being surrounded by too many enemies, maybe with a light hand squeeze or something like that, to show that even if that's not the right time he still does care about her.

Haven't really though about what he'd say when rescuing her from Arcann though. Probably something like "lost you for 5 years, don't leave me now" as he's trying to prevent her from loosing consciousness while carrying her back to the Gravestone (as i always found it kinda weird we walk back pretty much on our own after having been stabbed with a lightsaber), but not entirely sure about this one yet.