JakRoanin Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 I don't think Theron being with a Force User is necessarily "bad" or "out-of-character" I just see it as an extra complication in his life. Sometimes I like to keep it simple. Most of the LI's in the game, are very complicated. Sometimes it's just nice to have a straightup "normal" relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshaga Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: I think it seems people who main imp side and played that storyline first find that version of Theron and Satele's relationship more normal and republic side weirdly worse/colder but those of us who main republic characters and played that storyline first find that version of Theron and Satele's relationship more normal and imperial side weirdly worse/colder. This makes sense to me, honestly, first order familiarity and such. As I played the republic version of SoR 4 times before I played it on imperial, I did not like how they made him and Satele's relationship feel so much worse there (and I did play in English, I don't think it's a language thing). Personally I always read Satele trying to talk to Theron and him saying "we'll talk later" not as him being cold and not wanting to talk to her at all but as he still has to confront Lana and find out if it's true that she got him captured, and he means it when he says he will talk with Satele later, and any perceived coldness in his tone is actually his preparing to confront Lana and being angry with her. Whereas on imperial side he straight up vents about how cold Satele is calling him "my agent" (and, rightfully so, I don't understand why she says that either!!) To me the latter version is a way worse relationship. But if that is the version of their relationship you know better than I can see how the other version would seem strange. Yeah, which side we did first on and on which side we romance him may definitely play a role in how we perceive the difference in relationship between pub/imp side. That's also how i interpreted it in french tbh for both sides, would have to hear the english version to be sure though. 26 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: I definitely think that both Theron and Satele have both wanted for a long time to mend their relationship (maybe even their whole lives, tbh, but certainly for many years), and know the other better, but neither one really knew how and Satele had so many Jedi duties and Theron had too much pain surrounding his abandonment, so neither one really makes any attempt to approach the other until they find themselves working closely together on Yavin, and then other events later in the story. But it makes me so happy that they slowly get to become closer and heal those wounds. I think so too, after all, Satele keeps a picture of teen Theron, which proves she always cared about him, even if she had to give him up. And while Theron has issues with her abandoning him, he does express that he understands why she did it. 26 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: Probably an obvious statement from me, but hard disagree that Theron being romantic with Jedi is somehow against his character or bad for him. As mentioned he makes friends with individual Jedi, and he always cares about his mother even though she's literally the one who abandoned him, and he never talks negatively about Master Zho either. If he becomes close and learns he can trust an individual Jedi after working with them closely for months/a year/however long forged alliances/Rishi is, and especially if that Jedi is clearly into him and openly so, then while it might be a different relationship than with non-Jedi, that doesn't make it wrong for him. I definitely do still think that an off-screen discussion happens between them though where Theron questions how the Jedi attachments code fits into them being together and the Jedi tells him that they never agreed with that rule (especially the Jedi Knight who literally gets to say that earlier in the story). And I also think that all through SoR/Ziost, no matter what republic character you are playing on, the relationship is always kind of played like it could be the start of something serious or just potentially a mission-bound fling. The "for when you wake up" letter from Theron basically confirms this, where he says that they never defined what their relationship was but that he cares a lot and hopes they still care about him back. The one imperial version I did definitely felt like it was always played as a fling that was always going to end after that mission even if they were into each other, but he does send the same letter regardless. To me the letter doesn't really work so well with the imperial version, or at least not with a sith lol but he does send it. Already expressed it, but i fully agree on this, that may be because we both mainly romance him on a JK though, but i really like the dynamic between him and a JK and the fact on pub side at least that the relationship is treated as potentially being serious or not, only to become super serious later on during KOTFE and later. 18 minutes ago, JakRoanin said: I don't think Theron being with a Force User is necessarily "bad" or "out-of-character" I just see it as an extra complication in his life. Sometimes I like to keep it simple. Most of the LI's in the game, are very complicated. Sometimes it's just nice to have a straightup "normal" relationship. I don't really see him romancing someone who mainly (in case of BH), if not exclusively (the other imp classes) works with the Empire, aka the enemy as being particularly drama-free and a straight-up normal reelationship tbh, it may be even more complicated than falling in love with a Jedi depending on the class, because at least with the pub classes, they're working for the same side. Edited May 15, 2023 by Goreshaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 (edited) 46 minutes ago, JakRoanin said: I don't think Theron being with a Force User is necessarily "bad" or "out-of-character" I just see it as an extra complication in his life. Sometimes I like to keep it simple. Most of the LI's in the game, are very complicated. Sometimes it's just nice to have a straightup "normal" relationship. Ok, I misunderstood, and that is fair. Personally I like the "complicated" aspect of the relationship between Theron and a Jedi. Complicated does not have to be negative, for me the complicated aspect is ultimately positive. The way I view the relationship, Theron sees that this Jedi is willing to overlook the order's stuffy rules and make the decision to be with him regardless and it really helps him open up more because trauma around the Jedi was what closed him off for so long (therefore this relationship is not only good for him in the present but helps him heal a lot from his past), and the Jedi gets to make a decision for themselves and re-evaluate their role as a Jedi and maybe even brush with the dark side when Theron is in danger but ultimately choose the light regardless and prove to themselves and others that Jedi being in love is not a problem, therefore empowering them even more personally. Also I headcanon that Theron being in a relationship with a Jedi actually helps make it even easier for him to mend his relationship with Satele. Contrasting to this, I just started (officially, anyway, in The Alliance) my Theron/Sith Warrior romance. I view their relationship very differently. (Definitely see them as less passionately in love, for one thing.) She made the decision a long time ago to switch to the light despite being a sith, but always stayed with the empire regardless, and I think her being with Theron is really good for HER even if it is always going to be more complicated for Theron, as it gives her the push to ultimately choose to side with the Republic later (which is my plan for her). 37 minutes ago, Goreshaga said: Already expressed it, but i fully agree on this, that may be because we both mainly romance him on a JK though, but i really like the dynamic between him and a JK and the fact on pu side at least that the relationship is treated as potentially being serious or not, only to become super serious later on during KOTFE and later. We both have a JK bias but if that bias is wrong then I don't wanna be right, ok 😆 yeah, I love the aspect that it is not clear by design whether their relationship will become serious or not but that it makes Theron really open up more throughout SoR and gives the jedi something to really think about and re-revaluate themselves. And I like the headcanon too that the fact he's with a Jedi and not knowing entirely how serious it can be is why he doesn't fully commit to a defined relationship and just kind of keeps leaving and turns down going with them on their ship after Ziost, like he's really into them but still has at least some worry about it. But then after 5 years and everything that happens and there basically is no Jedi order anymore, that's when they both can admit they want a commited relationship. But even then, they don't say "I love you" until the end of KotET which in real time pretty sure is quite a long time later, which means no matter who he is with it takes Theron a long time to be so sure of his feelings that he can say that out loud. And I think with loving a Jedi that makes a lot of sense. 37 minutes ago, Goreshaga said: I think so too, after all, Satele keeps a picture of teen Theron, which proves she always cared about him, even if she had to give him up. And while Theron has issues with her abandoning him, he does express that he understands why she did it. Yeah, to me, the locket with teenage Theron says everything. She has cared about him this whole time. She can't say it or show it or even feel it openly, but in secret she keeps his image close. I wholeheartedly believe that she did not want to give Theron up, and only did it because she had to. And I think that Theron ultimately understands that too, especially later. As you say, he always understood why she gave him up, he never thought it was because she didn't want him, he knew it was because of Jedi rules. When he talks about it, he always sounds salty about the Jedi order, not about Satele herself. He ended up with abandonment issues regardless, but the fact he still cared about her anyway also just says everything. Their relationship is complicated, but, what good story does not have complicated relationships. I love them both, so much. They're both in my top 5 favorite characters in this game, and I love their relationship as it plays out and gets closer and mends so much. Edited May 15, 2023 by cannibithobbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Goreshaga said: I don't really see him romancing someone who mainly (in case of BH), if not exclusively (the other imp classes) works with the Empire, aka the enemy as being particularly drama-free and a straight-up normal reelationship tbh, it may be even more complicated than falling in love with a Jedi depending on the class, because at least with the pub classes, they're working for the same side. Oh, I forgot to respond to this also. Personally I agree. Any imperial side character is also going to be complicated. Different complicated from Jedi but definitely going to have its own emotional and logistical complications. (but imo that is not a bad thing just as complication from Jedi relationship is not a bad thing) Honestly I think the most "drama-free" and "normal" relationship option class wise for Theron would be, like.... Smuggler or Trooper? And that trooper better be male because otherwise ew. lol Edited May 15, 2023 by cannibithobbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshaga Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: Personally I like the "complicated" aspect of the relationship between Theron and a Jedi. Complicated does not have to be negative, for me the complicated aspect is ultimately positive. The way I view the relationship, Theron sees that this Jedi is willing to overlook the order's stuffy rules and make the decision to be with him regardless and it really helps him open up more because trauma around the Jedi was what closed him off for so long (therefore this relationship is not only good for him in the present but helps him heal a lot from his past), and the Jedi gets to make a decision for themselves and re-evaluate their role as a Jedi and maybe even brush with the dark side when Theron is in danger but ultimately choose the light regardless and prove to themselves and others that Jedi being in love is not a problem, therefore empowering them even more personally. Also I headcanon that Theron being in a relationship with a Jedi actually helps make it even easier for him to mend his relationship with Satele. I feel pretty much the same way. And i think it works particularly well with a JK, because it is established through the story, regardless of how we play them that they can have a tendency to walk the line between light and dark, especially with everything that happened with the Emperor. For me the relationship helped Theron with his own issues with the Jedi Order, but it also helped my JK heal, at least partially, from what happened to her between chapter 2 and 3. I have the same HC, especially with a JK who was pretty close to Satele during the whole class story and can be a bridge between them. 39 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: We both have a JK bias but if that bias is wrong then I don't wanna be right, ok 😆 yeah, I love the aspect that it is not clear by design whether their relationship will become serious or not but that it makes Theron really open up more throughout SoR and gives the jedi something to really think about and re-revaluate themselves. And I like the headcanon too that the fact he's with a Jedi and not knowing entirely how serious it can be is why he doesn't fully commit to a defined relationship and just kind of keeps leaving and turns down going with them on their ship after Ziost, like he's really into them but still has at least some worry about it. But then after 5 years and everything that happens and there basically is no Jedi order anymore, that's when they both can admit they want a commited relationship. But even then, they don't say "I love you" until the end of KotET which in real time pretty sure is quite a long time later, which means no matter who he is with it takes Theron a long time to be so sure of his feelings that he can say that out loud. And I think with loving a Jedi that makes a lot of sense. Same 🤣 Yep i like that it's not really defined for him, but not for our character as well, and that after loosing the PC for 5 years he came to realise just how much he cared about them, and after that he doesn't hesitate as much, because he doesn't want to loose them again, which also works with what happens during the traitor arc. As for my JK, Theron is very much her first and only love, she didn't really know what love was before she met him, even though she was unconsciously flirting with him like crazy, so i like that it took him so long to say "i love you". Before that she may have been a bit off on that, but at that point she's also ready to say it, because she fully understands her own feelings for him by then. There's also the fact she doesn't even know if she'll be able to come back after that as she still fears Valkorion may be able to take over her body, so that may be her one and only chance to say the words, and tell him just how much she also cares about him. 39 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: Yeah, to me, the locket with teenage Theron says everything. She has cared about him this whole time. She can't say it or show it or even feel it openly, but in secret she keeps his image close. I wholeheartedly believe that she did not want to give Theron up, and only did it because she had to. And I think that Theron ultimately understands that too, especially later. As you say, he always understood why she gave him up, he never thought it was because she didn't want him, he knew it was because of Jedi rules. When he talks about it, he always sounds salty about the Jedi order, not about Satele herself. He ended up with abandonment issues regardless, but the fact he still cared about her anyway also just says everything. Their relationship is complicated, but, what good story does not have complicated relationships. I love them both, so much. They're both in my top 5 favorite characters in this game, and I love their relationship as it plays out and gets closer and mends so much It's been a while since i last read Annihilation, so my memories may be a bit off, but the first scene is Satele giving birth to Theron and giving him up to Master Zho, iirc, there's a moment where she hesitates, but she knows she has to fight, and she also fears that if anything bad were to happen to Theron she could become a monster because at that moment, she realises she's already too attached to him. Honestly breaking up with Malcom and giving Theron up were probably the two most difficult decisions she made in her life. I like their relationship and the way it evolved through the story from SoR to EoO, and how happy she is that he finally found his place and someone who can give him all the love she could not, i'm really glad they put it in honestly. Now being able to help him with his dad if they're both still alive would be nice as well, my JK knows both of his parents and wants her man to be happy, so she wants to do everything she can to help him get a better relationship with both of them. 29 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: Oh, I forgot to respond to this also. Personally I agree. Any imperial side character is also going to be complicated. Different complicated from Jedi but definitely going to have its own emotional and logistical complications. Honestly I think the most "drama-free" and "normal" relationship option class wise for Theron would be, like.... Smuggler or Trooper? And that trooper better be male because otherwise ew. lol This, i think most classes have their own version of drama when it comes to romancing Theron. Trooper maybe a bit less, though i'm not entirely sure it'd be drama-free either as Trooper is directly under Malcom's command, but there is no being the enemy or being a Jedi. Smuggler, hm i guess the Smuggler may very well be the drama actually, especially if it's the kind of smuggler who hits on everything with a pulse 😅 Edited May 15, 2023 by Goreshaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 7 minutes ago, Goreshaga said: I feel pretty much the same way. And i think it works particularly well with a JK, because it is established through the story, regardless of how we play them that they can have a tendency to walk the line between light and dark, especially with everything that happened with the Emperor. For me the relationship helped Theron with his own issues with the Jedi Order, but it also helped my JK heal, at least partially, from what happened to her between chapter 2 and 3. Yes totally, JK goes through so much and has to heal a lot too, and I think compared to JC has potential brushes with the dark side more often and has to overcome them. 10 minutes ago, Goreshaga said: It's been a while since i last read Annihilation, so my memories may be a bit off, but the first scene is Satele giving birth to Theron and giving him up to Master Zho, iirc, there's a moment where she hesitates, but she knows she has to fight, and she also fears that if anything bad were to happen to Theron she could become a monster because at that moment, she realises she's already too attached to him. Honestly breaking up with Malcom and giving Theron up were probably the two most difficult decisions she made in her life. omg, I feel for her so much. Personally I am sure she is a strong enough Jedi that she would never become a monster or go fully dark even if Theron was hurt, but the fact she was even afraid of that because she loves him so much makes me so sad for her. I say again: anyone who hates Satele can come through me. 13 minutes ago, Goreshaga said: I like their relationship and the way it evolved through the story from SoR to EoO, and how happy she is that he finally found his place and someone who can give him all the love she could not, i'm really glad they put it in honestly. Now being able to help him with his dad if they're both still alive would be nice as well, my JK knows both of his parents and wants her man to be happy, so she wants to do everything she can to help him get a better relationship with both of them. Satele thanking PC for giving Theron the home he always needed and she couldn't give him is one of my favorite moments in the entire.game. It is so heartfelt and says so much about both her and Theron in that one line. And then PC being able to tell her back how much they love Theron and her giving that super sweet smile, I just... it gets me right in the feels. She is so happy that Theron has such a wonderful relationship, and to me this moment is even more meaningful if your are on Jedi because she is basically giving her approval of a Jedi being in love also. Personally I do absolutely nothing to help Theron mend his relationship with Malcolm, though, Theron shows no actual desire to and Malcolm does not understand Theron at all and has not earned it imo. lol I won't kill Malcolm because it makes Theron sad but that's as far as I go. 19 minutes ago, Goreshaga said: Trooper maybe a bit less, though i'm not entirely sure it'd be drama-free either as Trooper is directly under Malcom's command, but there is no being the enemy or being a Jedi. Smuggler, hm i guess the Smuggler may very well be the drama actually, especially if it's the kind of smuggler who hits on everything with a pulse 😅 I did not even think of trooper at least somewhat working under Malcolm lol. yeah ok, some drama there. but I think less than any of the others, probably. my smuggler totally hits on Theron but has no interest in a committed relationship with him, to be fair haha so yeah, if you play your smuggler that way also, then, yeah, that adds some complication. that said, the "this is the first time this person has committed to a serious relationship after loads of ultimately meaningless flings" romance can be really good too. but, that is not without complication lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshaga Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 15 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: Yes totally, JK goes through so much and has to heal a lot too, and I think compared to JC has potential brushes with the dark side more often and has to overcome them. I think the same, but that's also because for me, the way the JC's story is written really doesn't work with anything other than a pure LS, perfect Jedi JC, so i just can't see that character ever struggling with the Dark Side. 17 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: omg, I feel for her so much. Personally I am sure she is a strong enough Jedi that she would never become a monster or go fully dark even if Theron was hurt, but the fact she was even afraid of that because she loves him so much makes me so sad for her. The fact she made the choices she made regarding both Malcom and Theron shows she'd be strong enough, but she felt she had to make a choice and she made one, and had to stick to it, no matter how difficult it was for her, or how difficult she knows things have been for Theron too, when he himself had no choice in the whole situation (which may also be why he's so angry at Lana for not giving him the choice when she got him captured). 20 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: Satele thanking PC for giving Theron the home he always needed and she couldn't give him is one of my favorite moments in the entire.game. It is so heartfelt and says so much about both her and Theron in that one line. And then PC being able to tell her back how much they love Theron and her giving that super sweet smile, I just... it gets me right in the feels. She is so happy that Theron has such a wonderful relationship, and to me this moment is even more meaningful if your are on Jedi because she is basically giving her approval of a Jedi being in love also. Personally I do absolutely nothing to help Theron mend his relationship with Malcolm, though, Theron shows no actual desire to and Malcolm does not understand Theron at all and has not earned it imo. lol I won't kill Malcolm because it makes Theron sad but that's as far as I go. I really love that, both the option to tell Satele how much you love him and her smile afterwards and if the PC tells her that she's his mother and he still needs her in his life, to which she answers that she'd love to be more involved. My only regret is not being able to have both answers one after the other because they're both really good. Agree also on having it on a Jedi, after all she not only approves, but in a way Theron and a Jedi PC are a bit what Satele and Malcom could've been if they made different choices. I'm not overly fond of Malcom either, but he's still his dad, and yeah i think one of the main issue between them is that they don't really understand each other, and it probably doesn't help that Malcom realised he had a son only when his son was already an adult, he never had the time to get used to the idea of being a dad, and his son already had his own personality and ways of doing things that more often than not clashes with his. But i think Malcom still wants to at least try to have some kind of relationship with Theron, and while they're definitely not close and don't really understand each other Theron still cares about Malcom. So if having a better relationship with his dad (and as my JK sided with the Republic they may have to work together at some point) helps Theron be happier, that's something my JK is willing to work on. She should definitely apply that to herself though because her relationship with her own familly isn't the best either. 30 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: I did not even think of trooper at least somewhat working under Malcolm lol. yeah ok, some drama there. but I think less than any of the others, probably. my smuggler totally hits on Theron but has no interest in a committed relationship with him, to be fair haha so yeah, if you play your smuggler that way also, then, yeah, that adds some complication. that said, the "this is the first time this person has committed to a serious relationship after loads of ultimately meaningless flings" romance can be really good too. but, that is not without complication lol Yeah Trooper may be the lower level of drama. My male Smuggler is totally into Akaavi, so he's not going to flirt with anybody else. My female Smuggler though, she's 100% the kind of person who flirts with pretty much everything with a pulse, as long as it's male at least, and has a different man on every planet she visits, she calmed a bit during the 5 years timeskip though and ended up in a commited relationship with Koth, he's just her kind of fun, so she doesn't really feel like she has to find fun anywhere else after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 1 hour ago, cannibithobbal said: Oh, I forgot to respond to this also. Personally I agree. Any imperial side character is also going to be complicated. Different complicated from Jedi but definitely going to have its own emotional and logistical complications. (but imo that is not a bad thing just as complication from Jedi relationship is not a bad thing) Honestly I think the most "drama-free" and "normal" relationship option class wise for Theron would be, like.... Smuggler or Trooper? And that trooper better be male because otherwise ew. lol I think that it depends on how you play as well. My BH cheats the Imps as often as she can, kills only when she has to and in my HC... Spoiler she killed Master Jarro due to an equipment malfunction not because that was her plan. When... Spoiler Gets ambushed by the SIS and the Padawan. I HC she left them unconscious. As for being Imperial, she isn't. She's a Mando! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Goreshaga said: I think the same, but that's also because for me, the way the JC's story is written really doesn't work with anything other than a pure LS, perfect Jedi JC, so i just can't see that character ever struggling with the Dark Side. Yeah, I mean I played both my Jedi as pure light with 0 dark side choices, but my JC is super pure and just kind and gentle 100% of the time (part of why I wanna romance my second JC with Zenith tbh, because I like the HC that that really rubs off on him and that's why he trusts her so much... but that's me off topic lol) but I played more of the middle dialogue options on JK, like the ones that are sassy or questioning of authority or what have you, even though he is ultimately always good and cares about people. And when Theron is threatened he will definitely threaten back, and like I've said before my HC is he was never more tempted by the dark side than when he considered murdering Atrius for nearly killing Theron, but he was ultimately able to resist it. Whereas my JC, she would never even consider killing Atrius even though she also loves Theron. 1 hour ago, Goreshaga said: The fact she made the choices she made regarding both Malcom and Theron shows she'd be strong enough, but she felt she had to make a choice and she made one, and had to stick to it, no matter how difficult it was for her, or how difficult she knows things have been for Theron too, when he himself had no choice in the whole situation (which may also be why he's so angry at Lana for not giving him the choice when she got him captured). omg I never even thought of that as adding to how much Theron gets upset, but it would make a lot of sense, like he had so many things in his childhood decided for him outside of his control that he doesn't appreciate when he can't make his own choices now. I'm definitely going to HC that. and yeah, I think that totally shows that Satele would have been strong enough. I mean, hell, if she loves Theron so much that she is afraid she might go evil if something happens to him, are we really to think that that just instantly went away because she put him with someone else? I mean, he's still out there. But she put him somewhere safe, clearly, hoping that nothing would happen to him. She is a good enough Jedi to follow the code and push those feelings down as deep as possible, but that just tells me even more that she never stopped caring, no way she could. Seriously though, a mother essentially having to give up their child because she loves him too much (I mean, there is the Jedi rules aspect too, but clearly both things are at play) is so sad, I just... my feelings, I can't, that makes me so sad. Theron clearly knows that she gave him up because she had to for the Jedi, I hope he knows how much she really cared when she gave him up, even if she had to push all those feelings away after. 1 hour ago, Goreshaga said: I really love that, both the option to tell Satele how much you love him and her smile afterwards and if the PC tells her that she's his mother and he still needs her in his life, to which she answers that she'd love to be more involved. My only regret is not being able to have both answers one after the other because they're both really good. Agree also on having it on a Jedi, after all she not only approves, but in a way Theron and a Jedi PC are a bit what Satele and Malcom could've been if they made different choices. Yeah, I have often thought that too, that she sees in them the relationship that she never got to have. And more than anything, she sees Theron is so happy and hearing that the person Theron is with really loves him as much as deserves, that makes Satele also happy. This is further evidenced by the letter Theron sends where he relates that Satele takes every opportunity possible to tell Theron not to take his gf/bf/fiance for granted. I think this has to be partly because she doesn't want Theron to give up/lose his chance at a happy loving family the way she did. Post-EoO you see she really is proud happy supportive mama and she is the best. I really hope we get to see the two of them interact in a future update, almost all of their relationship mending we have gotten to see through Theron talking about her or Satele talking about him or letters from Theron where he says how much better their relationship is and how much more often they see each other. But I would love to actually see their closer relationship on screen, it would be really meaningful. I did love so much though that the two of them showed up together at the end of Ruins of Nul even though neither of them had dialogue. My HC is definitely that they were already spending time together when they got the call to join the fight. 1 hour ago, Goreshaga said: I'm not overly fond of Malcom either, but he's still his dad, and yeah i think one of the main issue between them is that they don't really understand each other, and it probably doesn't help that Malcom realised he had a son only when his son was already an adult, he never had the time to get used to the idea of being a dad, and his son already had his own personality and ways of doing things that more often than not clashes with his. But i think Malcom still wants to at least try to have some kind of relationship with Theron, and while they're definitely not close and don't really understand each other Theron still cares about Malcom. So if having a better relationship with his dad (and as my JK sided with the Republic they may have to work together at some point) helps Theron be happier, that's something my JK is willing to work on. She should definitely apply that to herself though because her relationship with her own familly isn't the best either. Yeah I think from Iokath it is clear that Malcolm wants a relationship with Theron way more than Theron wants one with him, but also (if Malcolm dies) you also see that Theron does actually care. But like, who doesn't that boy care about, let's be perfectly honest, his heart is too big. I freely admit that in large part the fact that my own personal feelings about totally crap fathers clouds my judgement on this one lol but yeah, I can't encourage Theron to be closer with Malcolm, if anything I would tell him to stay away lol 1 hour ago, JakRoanin said: I think that it depends on how you play as well. My BH cheats the Imps as often as she can, kills only when she has to and in my HC... Hide contents she killed Master Jarro due to an equipment malfunction not because that was her plan. When... Hide contents Gets ambushed by the SIS and the Padawan. I HC she left them unconscious. As for being Imperial, she isn't. She's a Mando! The reason I lump BH in with imperials even though they aren't is down to the writing of the class story. (And just, the design of the whole game, where they are factioned together, and post-class story they get the same version of the story.) Specifically, they may not be imperial, but they are forced to be anti-republic a lot. Also, Mandos are constantly written in this game as aligning with the imperials even though they're technically independent (personally I wish they hadn't done that, same with smuggler on republic side, but, what's done is done lol) so it even more just forces an anti-republic stance. Like, I really wanted to be able to make my BH 100% neutral and willing to work for whatever side as long as the job fit her moral code, but that is absolutely not possible. Like I have been putting off going back to finish the story because I got so frustrated by being forced to murder a Jedi and a whole republic ship full of people, and then the SIS agents who came after me for doing that. And all that as a petty revenge mission for the Mandos who I didn't even join. Basically, actual choices and desires for goodness of the character don't really feel like they get to matter at all lol Now unfortunately what that means is that for a relationship with Theron, you have a character that, whether you wanted it or not, is very often working against the side he super loyally supports, and as an SIS agent he would know about the aforementioned incident that resulted in the SIS going after this BH. Which imo makes things a bit complicated, certainly not more complicated than being with a Jedi, though definitely less complicated than being with an imperial agent or dark side sith haha Like I said though, personally that would make the relationship more interesting to me, not less, but to each their own. Obviously everyone's free to HC that things happened different from how they're forced to happen in the writing of the game, but, as written, BH is really lumped in with imperials even if a strong argument could/should be made (I would make it) that they shouldn't be. Edit to say: I really don't want this to be some kind of "us vs them" "Jedi vs BH: who's the better match for Theron" debate, because that would be stupid. Ship wars are stupid. All our characters can love the boy, all relationships are valid. The only thing I am trying to say here is that, imo, they're basically all complicated, even if it's varying in degrees lol In fact I would argue Theron in relationships at all is complicated, with his abandonment issues and his background of mainly working alone and not getting close to people. But imo that's why his romance story arc is so good and why I keep playing it. Edited May 15, 2023 by cannibithobbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 You don't Spoiler murder a whole ship of people as a BH. They use the escape pods. I have no issue with people romancing Theron on all 8 stories, so I'm not starting a Ship War, at all. I just don't see the BH as an Imperial in any way unless they want to be, same with Smuggler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 20 minutes ago, JakRoanin said: You don't Hide contents murder a whole ship of people as a BH. They use the escape pods. I have no issue with people romancing Theron on all 8 stories, so I'm not starting a Ship War, at all. I just don't see the BH as an Imperial in any way unless they want to be, same with Smuggler. I distinctly recall people still standing around as you ran off the ship, and there is no way to send a message out warning anyone to actually use the escape pods. And even if some or all people DID escape, just the fact that the mission was even to destroy the whole ship just to cover up the murder of one guy is super horrible and I hated the fact that my character would even accept that mission without some kind of light side choice to announce to the whole ship that everyone needed to evacuate or something. I don't see BH as imperial or smuggler as republic either, but because of the way the game is written, imo BH is forced to be almost as anti-republic as the empire (I mean, republic characters are always hostile in the game world when on BH thanks to the game putting them on same faction as imperial) and honestly borderline forced to be bad because so many of the "light" options are just "kill them nicer." (You can have your character say "I only kill if I have to" all you want, but then the game doesn't actually seem to let you follow through with that, which is super frustrating) And from everything I have heard, post-class story they are totally lumped together with imperial for stories, with just some slightly altered dialogue, even if that doesn't make sense. Bottom line: I really wish smugglers and BHs could be part of a third "underworld" faction, but as I've said before it is waaaaay too late for that to ever happen lol (And yes, I just wanted to make it clear I wasn't trying to start anything ship war-y, didn't want anyone to think that was the part I was trying to debate at all, because I know sometimes I say so many words that I forget to make things actually clear and that is something I definitely want to make clear 😬) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 Ok I really don't want to fight but out of the long list of mostly false charges Seros springs on BH blowing up thousands of Republic troops isn't one of them. When the SIS comes they distinctly commend that you don't have to murder the crew. That's all I have to say about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 Just now, JakRoanin said: Ok I really don't want to fight but out of the long list of mostly false charges Seros springs on BH blowing up thousands of Republic troops isn't one of them. When the SIS comes they distinctly commend that you don't have to murder the crew. That's all I have to say about it. Ok, I don't remember being told that I didn't murder the crew, so my memory was faulty there then. But, the way I see it, if my character didn't warn anyone directly then the fact they all escaped was more luck on their part than my character actually being able to do anything like the right thing. I can headcanon that she did off screen, but as written, she didn't. And regardless of any of that, I just hated the entire mission, I didn't even want to murder that one Jedi, definitely not for the reasons I was given for why someone wanted him dead. And I definitely didn't want to then have to murder the padawan that I let go before just because she did the right bloody thing and reported the incident and then came back with the SIS agents. It made the whole scenario feel like there was the illusion of choice but actually you have to just be a murdering outlaw. And just so this post is vaguely on topic: I stand by my statement that Theron would know about this mission since the SIS was involved, and I think he would not approve of the actions of the BH on that mission, and I think it would be just one example of a thing that Theron would have to personally get past when starting a relationship with said BH, in the same way that he would have to push aside his feelings toward imperials who had worked directly against the republic. But obviously Theron has a big heart and would ultimately look past it and forgive, especially if he is really into that person. Just my opinion, but that's how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eabevella Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 Since we're talking about class vs Theron, I'll list mine. It's all personal opinion/preference: JK: to me the JK story always treats the JK as some sort of super weapon, I feel like there's a lot of room to play a non-conventional Jedi who is struggling with/couldn't agree with every Jedi rule. They could share a similar opinion with Theron and talk a lot after their first few cooperation. My female JK doesn't romance Theron but I imagine Theron formed the Sixth Line Jedi because he was inspired, which would work nicely if there's also a romance between them. JC: I dunno why but I always feel the JC story very... impersonal despite the story requires me to deal with should be emotional plot lines in Ch1 and 3. I don't even romance the JC with anyone (tried Iresso but it's... bland. I don't even want to try the Nadia romance because... yikes sorry but I don't prey on teenage girl who just lost her father. Tharan with the stupid spelling is just... no) and I also think LS JC strictly follow the class story would rob Theron the wrong way. Smuggler: Not many baggage even though a playboy/girl smuggler might have trouble adjusting a stable relationship. I don't see Theron as the embracing open relationship type due to his attachment issue. But other than that they could be a fun pair. Trooper: Dunno if there's regulation regarding fraternization between the military and the SIS, I guess there won't be too much drama as long as the Trooper is LS which will make them have similar moral standard with Theron. Otherwise it probably won't work because Theron will see too much of his father in the Trooper (in my latest novel reading progress, Jace Malcom did show ideological difference with Theron). SW: a LS SW could issue interesting challenge to Theron about the Jedi philosophy early on and later Sith philosophy once they know each other better. The SW doesn't have any official bond/status in the Empire so they could be in a more loosen position and I think any sane, LS Empire class won't stay in the Empire after Kotfe anyway so who knows, it's very possible that they won't have many moral conflict after all and the SW could be "well, guess I'm YOUR Wrath now". Vette would certainly help a LS SW out by telling Theron how nice the former Emperor's Wrath actually is, who helped her saved her sister and the tragedy with her mother, when there's no one around. SI: I love the SI to be a bit bonker so there's a lot of space to work around the character. Who knows, maybe the SI would just fall in love and be "screw it, I'll be the first Sith who defect!" "sorry hun, you're not" "how about the first Dark Councilor who defect" "sorry hun, you're not either". The SI would definitely give/make bad advice/decision so someone needs to hold them back. The SI also has Ashara onboard, it would be interesting for them to talk about the Jedi rules. Agent: It's my otp so I'm biased. The agent is so much like a mirror class to Theron, they will be so alike but worlds apart. They'll both know whatever between them is an act that will end no matter how real it could be. The "enjoy it while it last" line hits more between them. The agent was also terribly abused by the SIS and the Jedi (well and the Sith too). I think the assault of the Eternal Empire is the only thing that makes them realize what they've pretended to be only a performance is an option now that the Empire the agent has ties with is taken out of picture (alas Marr but you are the only good Sith in the Empire that's worthy) - as long as the agent is not a die hard loyalist. I always LOVE the line where the SIS director said to agent who didn't side with the Republic in their class story in Nathema Conspiracy: "No wonder Theron is loyal to you. You're the infamous Cipher Nine. Once sinks your claws on your target, no one can escape" (paraphrasing) because at that point, the claws clearly go both ways (also, extra emotional damage to Theron because his old boss who clearly has fallen so far dies later as human battery). BH: I always feel weird that the BH class story kind of force us to side with the Empire. I mean, the Smuggler is more or less like that, but at least it's not so many... personal blood feud in the Smuggler's story. I always feel like the BH class story force the player to have the idea that the SIS is "dirty" and "petty" but in fact the BH did kill Republic targets as part of their bounty hunter game. To me the BH doesn't really have any moral high ground to accuse the republic. The class story is pretty rigid to me despite the attempted option to "come clean" in Ch3. But I think it provides good materials for the BH and Theron to talk about the lines they draw and find common ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, eabevella said: Since we're talking about class vs Theron, I'll list mine. It's all personal opinion/preference: JK: to me the JK story always treats the JK as some sort of super weapon, I feel like there's a lot of room to play a non-conventional Jedi who is struggling with/couldn't agree with every Jedi rule. They could share a similar opinion with Theron and talk a lot after their first few cooperation. My female JK doesn't romance Theron but I imagine Theron formed the Sixth Line Jedi because he was inspired, which would work nicely if there's also a romance between them. JC: I dunno why but I always feel the JC story very... impersonal despite the story requires me to deal with should be emotional plot lines in Ch1 and 3. I don't even romance the JC with anyone (tried Iresso but it's... bland. I don't even want to try the Nadia romance because... yikes sorry but I don't prey on teenage girl who just lost her father. Tharan with the stupid spelling is just... no) and I also think LS JC strictly follow the class story would rob Theron the wrong way. Smuggler: Not many baggage even though a playboy/girl smuggler might have trouble adjusting a stable relationship. I don't see Theron as the embracing open relationship type due to his attachment issue. But other than that they could be a fun pair. Trooper: Dunno if there's regulation regarding fraternization between the military and the SIS, I guess there won't be too much drama as long as the Trooper is LS which will make them have similar moral standard with Theron. Otherwise it probably won't work because Theron will see too much of his father in the Trooper (in my latest novel reading progress, Jace Malcom did show ideological difference with Theron). SW: a LS SW could issue interesting challenge to Theron about the Jedi philosophy early on and later Sith philosophy once they know each other better. The SW doesn't have any official bond/status in the Empire so they could be in a more loosen position and I think any sane, LS Empire class won't stay in the Empire after Kotfe anyway so who knows, it's very possible that they won't have many moral conflict after all and the SW could be "well, guess I'm YOUR Wrath now". Vette would certainly help a LS SW out by telling Theron how nice the former Emperor's Wrath actually is, who helped her saved her sister and the tragedy with her mother, when there's no one around. SI: I love the SI to be a bit bonker so there's a lot of space to work around the character. Who knows, maybe the SI would just fall in love and be "screw it, I'll be the first Sith who defect!" "sorry hun, you're not" "how about the first Dark Councilor who defect" "sorry hun, you're not either". The SI would definitely give/make bad advice/decision so someone needs to hold them back. The SI also has Ashara onboard, it would be interesting for them to talk about the Jedi rules. Agent: It's my otp so I'm biased. The agent is so much like a mirror class to Theron, they will be so alike but worlds apart. They'll both know whatever between them is an act that will end no matter how real it could be. The "enjoy it while it last" line hits more between them. The agent was also terribly abused by the SIS and the Jedi (well and the Sith too). I think the assault of the Eternal Empire is the only thing that makes them realize what they've pretended to be only a performance is an option now that the Empire the agent has ties with is taken out of picture (alas Marr but you are the only good Sith in the Empire that's worthy) - as long as the agent is not a die hard loyalist. I always LOVE the line where the SIS director said to agent who didn't side with the Republic in their class story in Nathema Conspiracy: "No wonder Theron is loyal to you. You're the infamous Cipher Nine. Once sinks your claws on your target, no one can escape" (paraphrasing) because at that point, the claws clearly go both ways (also, extra emotional damage to Theron because his old boss who clearly has fallen so far dies later as human battery). BH: I always feel weird that the BH class story kind of force us to side with the Empire. I mean, the Smuggler is more or less like that, but at least it's not so many... personal blood feud in the Smuggler's story. I always feel like the BH class story force the player to have the idea that the SIS is "dirty" and "petty" but in fact the BH did kill Republic targets as part of their bounty hunter game. To me the BH doesn't really have any moral high ground to accuse the republic. The class story is pretty rigid to me despite the attempted option to "come clean" in Ch3. But I think it provides good materials for the BH and Theron to talk about the lines they draw and find common ground. Damn, this is all really well thought out and honestly I agree with basically everything! I thought I would have more to comment on but this is so thorough 😆 Only differences for me would really just be in how I played some of my own specific characters a bit differently. Like, my SI would never defect to the republic, though she would absolutely want to rule her own empire instead 😅 she has no loyalty to the empire that enslaved her but no love of the republic either. I also would just not romance her with Theron, as the way I played her she would not be good for him lol. I love the idea of Ashara and Theron talking Jedi rules though. (I really wish Ashara could join as companion for any character post-KotFE btw, makes me so sad she is stuck on SI, especially since she is basically a grey Jedi and would fit in with a lot of other characters.) I also played my JC as absolutely zero romances and staunchly loyal to the Jedi code until KotFE when a lot of things changed for her and there was no more Jedi order to speak of and she got an emperor in her head. And I am going to play my second JC as also no romances but probably no romance with Theron either (but probably Zenith, if that ever happens - though at the speed of new game content she's gonna be burnin that candle for a real long time, I'm guessing.... she gets... one flirt 😅 that doesn't break her Jedi code anyway, right? one lil innocent flirt?). And 100% agreed on the class story romance choices for JC, all terrible imo lol omg the idea of Vette telling Theron how great SW actually is though, I LOVE that. 100% headcanoning the crap out of that, ty for that one. ❤️ ............y'all are really making me so tempted to make a male agent and romance him with Theron now btw. gdi. 😅 I don't need another character rn.... (I say to myself as I play through my 3rd JK dupe that I made just to rerecord things lmao) Edited May 16, 2023 by cannibithobbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eabevella Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: Damn, this is all really well thought out and honestly I agree with basically everything! I thought I would have more to comment on but this is so thorough 😆 Only differences for me would really just be in how I played some of my own specific characters a bit differently. Like, my SI would never defect to the republic, though she would absolutely want to rule her own empire instead 😅 she has no loyalty to the empire that enslaved her but no love of the republic either. I also would just not romance her with Theron, as the way I played her she would not be good for him lol. I love the idea of Ashara and Theron talking Jedi rules though. (I really wish Ashara could join as companion for any character post-KotFE btw, makes me so sad she is stuck on SI, especially since she is basically a grey Jedi and would fit in with a lot of other characters.) I also played my JC as absolutely zero romances and staunchly loyal to the Jedi code until KotFE when a lot of things changed for her and there was no more Jedi order to speak of and she got an emperor in her head. And I am going to play my second JC as also no romances but probably no romance with Theron either (but probably Zenith, if that ever happens - though at the speed of new game content she's gonna be burnin that candle for a real long time, I'm guessing.... she gets... one flirt 😅). And 100% agreed on the class story romance choices for JC, all terrible imo lol omg the idea of Vette telling Theron how great SW actually is though, I LOVE that. 100% headcanoning the crap out of that, ty for that one. ❤️ ............y'all are really making me so tempted to make a male agent and romance him with Theron now btw. gdi. 😅 I don't need another character rn.... (I say to myself as I play through my 3rd JK dupe that I made just to rerecord things lmao) This thread always made my day. I love Darth Marr too much so when he's gone, my attitude to the Empire is mostly "bye losers" lol I definitely have more fun with the imp side pre-kotxx and pub side post-kotxx stories. Personal preference aside, it's very clear lately that the writers wrote the pub side as "canon" then retro fit the story into imp side but that's probably off topic. "The character slots of Swtor is a pathway to many alts some considered to be... unnatural" ok I'll see myself out. And... dew it! XD Edited May 16, 2023 by eabevella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, eabevella said: I love Darth Marr too much so when he's gone, my attitude to the Empire is mostly "bye losers" lol 😂 I also love Marr so much ❤️ my favorite sith list is basically: Lana, Marr, Scourge.... the end lmao. I also have no love for/loyalty to the empire, which is really obvious when you see my three imperial characters: light side sith warrior, SIS double agent, sith who hates the empire that kept her a slave 😆 9 minutes ago, eabevella said: Personal preference aside, it's very clear lately that the writers wrote the pub side as "canon" then retro fit the story into imp side but that's probably off topic. oh, 100%, definitely agreed. personally I think this is why some elements of the imp side forged alliances/SoR stories felt really off to me, because it felt like they were going "how can we make this more imperial" or whatever when it didn't even need to be different (like Theron and Satele's interactions) 11 minutes ago, eabevella said: "The character slots of Swtor is a pathway to many alts some considered to be... unnatural" ok I'll see myself out. And... dew it! XD 🤣 The irony when AGENT of all classes becomes the first class I play both genders all the way through the class story.............................................. (I have also realized that, so far in the cannibithobbal swtor multiverse, Theron Shan literally just has a thing for twi'leks lmao, so this agent is gonna have to be another twi'lek now. some day I will make another non-twi'lek.......) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yenzin Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 On 5/14/2023 at 3:50 AM, eabevella said: So many good posts >3 Speaking of VAs and singing, the male agent VA, Bertie Carvel, also do musical. He's Miss Trunchbull in Matilda (he sounded so different for the role) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EdolAes-_A He's also the narrative for the BBC Big Cat documentary (where he used his natural voice so he sounded just like the agent): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W86cTIoMv2U Watching all your recordings, I really like how different VAs have slightly different take with the same voice lines they're given. I know we're getting a "vacation" time with Theron in the near future update, but I would pay real CCs if thre's a small side story package of a kareoke night with our toons lol Thank you for those! Those were fun to listen to/watch. The kitty one was especially nice. Carvel has a really nice voice. It's almost soothing to listen to. 20 hours ago, eabevella said: The male Sith Warrior can play a hallikset or something since his VA can certainly play a guitar :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THgqQMwXzVM It's just funny that if Theron likes singing, the scary people from the Empire could either sing with him or be the accompaniment. 19 hours ago, cannibithobbal said: 😂 ok, so basically we've got "Theron: The Musical", where Theron is on a spy mission to the Empire, he's tracking a sith inquisitor, and there's an imperial agent who's been sent to intercept him.... and the emperor's wrath just chillin in back playing some instrument, for reasons. maybe Senya shows up somewhere. maybe Theron gets help from Zenith and they have a duet. idk. this is off the rails 😆 This continues to amuse no end. All these talented voice actors who can sing, do musicals, play an instrument. And they are all on the Imperial side. 🤣 I would love to see them all perform something together. That scene would be so amazing!!! I also would totally pay to see that❣️ 19 hours ago, cannibithobbal said: wait.... again? 🤣 17 hours ago, Goreshaga said: There's a comic book called The Lost Suns, which happens roughly around the time our character go to their capital planets as iirc the events on the Esseles are mentioned, and then there's Annihilation, which happens shortly after Ilum, as Malgus' failed coup is mentioned. They're both pretty nice reads, i liked Annihilation more than The Lost Suns. Of the 3 Old Republic books i've read, i liked Annihilation the most, because it's a pretty good story with lots of Theron in it, also the book does a good job at showing what he's really capable of, which the game failed for the most part, imo, as he's mostly doing stuff in the background so we very rarely see him being cool while being good at his job. And yes he totally striped as he was hacking the Ascendant Spear's systems in a hot engine room, so the whole ending fight has both Theron and Gnost-Dural fighting in their underwear. So i had a fairly recent version of my JK who was at KOTFE 15, so i decided to take this one, record the My time's finally come dialogue and then go to chapter 16 to record the 3 lines we were talking about but, i just can't get past that stupid GEMINI captain, for some reason Senya dies in 2 secs as soon as the 4 GEMINI phase starts, and i die not long after. I'll try again, but if i can't beat her, i'll just go grab an older version of my JK, but that's kinda annoying rn, especially since the rest of the chapter was just fine. Oh, yes. 😉 You really should read that list of Theron feats and skills. His blaster was damaged too. 🔫 So he killed the Sith Lord Dark Council member while only wearing his underwear, with a damaged weapon. The game really does underplay just how amazing he can be. 🤭 O.O Wow, FemJK sounds very believable there! Nice inflection. It sounds almost like she got wounded while in the middle of talking. Makes her sound even more believable. Also, I will never tire of seeing Theron look all sexy there. 😍 I still have not finished reading Annihilation. In the book, Spoiler Theron finally finds out who his dad is and he does not handle the first private conversation with Malcom well. But then, Malcom had longer to come to terms with the news than Theron did. I need to read more so I can find out if they try to get to know each other better. I hope so. Despite the way some of my characters have handled things in-game regarding certain characters, I personally really want Theron to have his parents in his life. It is such a shame that he has lost, or been deprived, of so many people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yenzin Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 All this talk of how Theron and his mom's relationship varies from Republic to Imperial and which one has a better or worse relationship with each other. Let's go through the video for both sides. 😉 I worked on these for four hours! 😱 Thus, while it would have been better to just snip all the relevant parts out, I didn't want to. 🌟 Instead, each video has timestamps to skip to the relevant parts. 🌟 Here is the Imperial side. I mainly used my agent for this as he had a better relationship with everyone. My BH was... prickly... with Satele. (Again, my characters are not me, I am not my characters, and they are not each other.) My agent does not have the romance activated with Theron though, so I used my BH for the parts where Theron speaks more about his mom with the PC if the romance is active. There is distinctly less Theron and Satele interaction. Satele and Theron both speak less and when they do, they are constantly at odds. Theron never stands up for himself or addresses the issue with her. Satele refers to Theron as "an agent of ours" when talking to Marr over holo. Then, "my agent" while gesturing to Theron on Rishi. Then she firmly instructs Theron, "Agent - compose yourself," when he gets snippy with Lana for withholding intel that could have helped them better prepare against the Massassi. She never calls him by his actual name. Then Marr refers to Theron as, "your agent", to Satele. Theron opens up to the PC at the end of Rishi about Satele referring to him as, "her agent". To me, he does seem to be bothered by it but pretends that it does not affect him. Theron will open up a bit more about his mom and the Force after Ivan's interrogation. He will also open up again while saying goodbye to a romanced PC. I had to do a lot of editing for this scene because in my BH's final version of that scene, he did not ask Theron about his mother. Good thing I had all that extra video recorded. 😁 Here is the Republic side. I only have my JC on this side. He was... confrontational... to both Marr and Lana and I have no extra scenes recorded so I can't splice in different conversation options. Apologies! Fortunately, again, I have included time stamps in the video's description so you skip all of the extra stuff. My next JC really needs to be less anti-Sith. 😅 Already, you can see that it is longer. Much longer. Theron and Satele have more screen time and they don't contradict each other. Satele does not call him her "agent", and she does not reprimand him in front of the PC, the PC's companion, Marr, Lana, and the Republic and Imperial Troops. Not even when he gets snippy with Marr. Theron jokes about needing a call sign if the PC asks him about being related to the Grand Master (another scene that was extra as my JC's final video used the third dialogue option). He is very pragmatic and understanding (true or not is the question) when talking to the PC in the cantina regarding the Jedi and their rules. He reports to Satele over comms while she is talking to Marr and is very professional. While he does not go with Satele at the end of Rishi, preferring to finish up on what he is working on, he does continue to work well with her on Yavin. Neither of them steps on the other's toes and they are both in agreement when it comes to stalling Marr and sending the PC to the Emperor Guard's temple despite Marr's wishes and all the talk of needing to trust each other. 🤣 Theron does not open up as much to the PC, but the PC can ask him if working with his mother has been going well. Overall, the two sides and the relationship between Satele and Theron is vastly different on either side. 🧐 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, yenzin said: All this talk of how Theron and his mom's relationship varies from Republic to Imperial and which one has a better or worse relationship with each other. Let's go through the video for both sides. 😉 I worked on these for four hours! 😱 Thus, while it would have been better to just snip all the relevant parts out, I didn't want to. 🌟 Instead, each video has timestamps to skip to the relevant parts. 🌟 Here is the Imperial side. I mainly used my agent for this as he had a better relationship with everyone. My BH was... prickly... with Satele. (Again, my characters are not me, I am not my characters, and they are not each other.) My agent does not have the romance activated with Theron though, so I used my BH for the parts where Theron speaks more about his mom with the PC if the romance is active. There is distinctly less Theron and Satele interaction. Satele and Theron both speak less and when they do, they are constantly at odds. Theron never stands up for himself or addresses the issue with her. Satele refers to Theron as "an agent of ours" when talking to Marr over holo. Then, "my agent" while gesturing to Theron on Rishi. Then she firmly instructs Theron, "Agent - compose yourself," when he gets snippy with Lana for withholding intel that could have helped them better prepare against the Massassi. She never calls him by his actual name. Then Marr refers to Theron as, "your agent", to Satele. Theron opens up to the PC at the end of Rishi about Satele referring to him as, "her agent". To me, he does seem to be bothered by it but pretends that it does not affect him. Theron will open up a bit more about his mom and the Force after Ivan's interrogation. He will also open up again while saying goodbye to a romanced PC. I had to do a lot of editing for this scene because in my BH's final version of that scene, he did not ask Theron about his mother. Good thing I had all that extra video recorded. 😁 Here is the Republic side. I only have my JC on this side. He was... confrontational... to both Marr and Lana and I have no extra scenes recorded so I can't splice in different conversation options. Apologies! Fortunately, again, I have included time stamps in the video's description so you skip all of the extra stuff. My next JC really needs to be less anti-Sith. 😅 Already, you can see that it is longer. Much longer. Theron and Satele have more screen time and they don't contradict each other. Satele does not call him her "agent", and she does not reprimand him in front of the PC, the PC's companion, Marr, Lana, and the Republic and Imperial Troops. Not even when he gets snippy with Marr. Theron jokes about needing a call sign if the PC asks him about being related to the Grand Master (another scene that was extra as my JC's final video used the third dialogue option). He is very pragmatic and understanding (true or not is the question) when talking to the PC in the cantina regarding the Jedi and their rules. He reports to Satele over comms while she is talking to Marr and is very professional. While he does not go with Satele at the end of Rishi, preferring to finish up on what he is working on, he does continue to work well with her on Yavin. Neither of them steps on the other's toes and they are both in agreement when it comes to stalling Marr and sending the PC to the Emperor Guard's temple despite Marr's wishes and all the talk of needing to trust each other. 🤣 Theron does not open up as much to the PC, but the PC can ask him if working with his mother has been going well. Overall, the two sides and the relationship between Satele and Theron is vastly different on either side. 🧐 Yes, this. All this. A very thorough and excellent summary, if I do say so myself. Probably the only thing I would add is pointing out that Satele specifically calls him "Theron" on republic side, contrasting to "agent" on the imperial side. I genuinely don't know why the writers did this lol I mean, the imperial side story basically places the imperials as more of the "hero" characters to the audience, making it kind of an overall darker and more oppressive toned universe throughout the story, but WHY and HOW would that change Theron and Satele's relationship, exactly? lol I honestly don't understand. And yet, that's definitely how it is. No other characters who are in the same faction have a drastically different relationship like that, I'm pretty sure. The only thing I can think is that because they made Theron romanceable to the imp faction characters they wanted to, idk, give him a reason to feel more negatively toward one of his major personal connections on the republic side to explain why he might be drawn to be with an imperial???????? yeah, idk, that's literally all I got and it's shaky af. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eabevella Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 SoR did a great job by approaching the same story in different point of view. The same couldn't be said about Secret of the Enclave where the Imp side story is just a bad after thought. You see Satele more active on the Rep side but way more cautious on the Imp side because it makes sense that she took more precaution to protect everyone when she (and Theron + the Republic in extension) is outnumbered. It's like she's taking defensive and be extra Jedi Grand Master (TM) in order to make things work out. In comparison, Marr was way more aggressive on the Rep side but very cool headed on the Imp side. He also dealt with the Imperial Guard with more hostility on the Pub side - the b*tch slap he gave to that crazy guard is on the Pub side only. Tbh I mix-match the slightly different versions into my personal canon so it match up the "Hero of Tython and former Cipher Nine working together since Manaan" plot of mine even though it's kind of a pain to have to watch and verify every cutscene while wondering if my memory is broken. Btw my Jk always suspect Theron and the agent are not purely professional while my agent suspects she and the former Emperor's Wrath the same thing. She's very happy when she found out they're together during her 5 year carbonite out-time lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 12 minutes ago, yenzin said: Oh, yes. 😉 You really should read that list of Theron feats and skills. His blaster was damaged too. 🔫 So he killed the Sith Lord Dark Council member while only wearing his underwear, with a damaged weapon. The game really does underplay just how amazing he can be. 🤭 ... I still have not finished reading Annihilation. In the book, Reveal hidden contents Theron finally finds out who his dad is and he does not handle the first private conversation with Malcom well. But then, Malcom had longer to come to terms with the news than Theron did. I need to read more so I can find out if they try to get to know each other better. I hope so. Despite the way some of my characters have handled things in-game regarding certain characters, I personally really want Theron to have his parents in his life. It is such a shame that he has lost, or been deprived, of so many people. damn, Theron is such an amazing badass. 😍 I mean, we already knew that even from what we do get to see, but, I love that they also gave him some side stories to totally shine. .....I will be hunting down that book.... eventually (I'm bad at reading things though, it may take me a while). It really sounds like it basically explains Theron's ENTIRE backstory?? I did not realize that that one book is where so much of this stuff about him is revealed. As for his parents though, I.... honestly just don't want Theron to have Malcolm in his life unless the man actually starts respecting who Theron is and stops wanting him to be something he isn't. Theron has spent so long finding who he is and where he belongs and he does not need that kind of negative influence in his life. Just because Malcolm is blood doesn't make him family, and doesn't make him someone Theron needs. From the very beginning of meeting Theron it is super clear that he cares a lot about Satele and wishes he had a better relationship with her but doesn't think it's possible and doesn't know how to. But with Malcolm? We have only ever seen him be mildly antagonistic and pretty dismissive toward him, with the exception of being upset Spoiler if Malcolm literally dies which honestly would shake anyone, especially someone with as big and squishy of a heart as Theron, so I don't take that as any kind of sign that he is remotely ready to accept that man into his life as an actual father figure. If Theron starts expressing or demonstrating a deep desire to connect with him, I would respect that and make my characters help him do it, but, so far imo that just has not happened. Which means, in any playthrough of mine, no toxic father figures for my boy. He is finally able to have a good relationship with his mother and he has friends and a new family made up of people around him who actually care about him and respect him as the wonderful person that he is and who help him open up and be his best self and support him and help pick him back up when he makes mistakes. Those are the relationships he needs and deserves, and he already has them. He doesn't need Jace Malcolm, and I think he's better off without him. ...../off the soap box now lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eabevella Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 23 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said: Yes, this. All this. A very thorough and excellent summary, if I do say so myself. Probably the only thing I would add is pointing out that Satele specifically calls him "Theron" on republic side, contrasting to "agent" on the imperial side. I genuinely don't know why the writers did this lol I mean, the imperial side story basically places the imperials as more of the "hero" characters to the audience, making it kind of an overall darker and more oppressive toned universe throughout the story, but WHY and HOW would that change Theron and Satele's relationship, exactly? lol I honestly don't understand. And yet, that's definitely how it is. No other characters who are in the same faction have a drastically different relationship like that, I'm pretty sure. The only thing I can think is that because they made Theron romanceable to the imp faction characters they wanted to, idk, give him a reason to feel more negatively toward one of his major personal connections on the republic side to explain why he might be drawn to be with an imperial???????? yeah, idk, that's literally all I got and it's shaky af. Well, if you are Satele, won't you fear what Darth Marr would do to Theron if he knows that he's your son (it's probably already compromised because no reason Lana won't tell Marr) AND you actually care for him? If I were Darth Marr, the information will be so delicious I would be plotting how to capture, torture, and kill the Grand Jedi Master's son right away because it's not everyday you get to deal a huge blow to the head Jedi. Also, assuming they took similar sized military forces to Yavin, it will be Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and one of the most powerful person on the Empire side where it's only Satele and Theron on the Republic side as the "big game players". Satele is outnumbered. There's no reason for her to trust Darth Marr won't take the chance and attack her right after their deal on Yavin is done. Worse case scenario, she has to take 3 super powerful Sith at the same time. If I were her, the last thing I would do is to call Theron anything other than "my agent". Where on Pub side, Satele has a more even power balance so there's less need for her to be extra professional and execute the no detachment rule to 120%. It doesn't change Satele and Theron's relationship, to me it shows how Satele cares for Theron to the point that she'll act like she doesn't care at all if it's what it takes to make sure he's safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, eabevella said: Tbh I mix-match the slightly different versions into my personal canon so it match up the "Hero of Tython and former Cipher Nine working together since Manaan" plot of mine even though it's kind of a pain to have to watch and verify every cutscene while wondering if my memory is broken. Btw my Jk always suspect Theron and the agent are not purely professional while my agent suspects she and the former Emperor's Wrath the same thing. She's very happy when she found out they're together during her 5 year carbonite out-time lol Just wanna say, I find it really fascinating and fun to see how different people view their different characters and the different playthroughs in relation to each other. Having multiple characters actually being in the same story together in your head sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics but also a lot of potential fun. I actually really wish I was able to do that, but my brain is too literal and will not let me. 🥲 Instead, in my mind, every character is in their own alternate timeline/universe and does not cross with any others (with only ONE exception, and that's that my BH story takes place in the same universe as my JC story - total rule breaker, that one, but it does require BH to never go past class story to work lol). This is how I have no problem justifying putting Theron together with so many different characters tbh haha I have some headcanon stories where one of my characters from one timeline will crossover and see someone else who has almost their exact same life and the confusion and borderline trauma that comes from meeting a Theron who's in love with someone else, for example (I like making up dark and sometimes depressing headcanon side stories, don't judge me lol) but otherwise they are totally separate for me. Even my dupes I actually think of as slightly altered timeline versions of the same character if they took different paths, and my JCs ended up more radically different but my JKs were just always destined to be with Theron so they always end up with Theron, the universe hath spoken lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibithobbal Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, eabevella said: Well, if you are Satele, won't you fear what Darth Marr would do to Theron if he knows that he's your son (it's probably already compromised because no reason Lana won't tell Marr) AND you actually care for him? If I were Darth Marr, the information will be so delicious I would be plotting how to capture, torture, and kill the Grand Jedi Master's son right away because it's not everyday you get to deal a huge blow to the head Jedi. Also, assuming they took similar sized military forces to Yavin, it will be Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and one of the most powerful person on the Empire side where it's only Satele and Theron on the Republic side as the "big game players". Satele is outnumbered. There's no reason for her to trust Darth Marr won't take the chance and attack her right after their deal on Yavin is done. Worse case scenario, she has to take 3 super powerful Sith at the same time. If I were her, the last thing I would do is to call Theron anything other than "my agent". Where on Pub side, Satele has a more even power balance so there's less need for her to be extra professional and execute the no detachment rule to 120%. It doesn't change Satele and Theron's relationship, to me it shows how Satele cares for Theron to the point that she'll act like she doesn't care at all if it's what it takes to make sure he's safe. The only issue I have with this take on it is the fact that when Theron is venting to PC about Satele calling him agent he says "she calls me 'her agent', like it's sheer coincidence that we have the same name", which implies that Marr (and everyone else in the room) already knows his full name, so Satele referring to Theron as "Theron" in front of Marr would not give Marr any information he doesn't already have. I do agree that in any universe, Satele would want to protect Theron, and that in the "darker timeline" that is the imperial story she might feel the need to take extra measures to protect him even more, but, if they already know his name then calling him "agent" wouldn't actually really do anything to actually protect him, it would only hurt him. And I just don't see Satele pretending to not care about Theron just to protect him anyway (short of some life or death scenario) when she knows how much their lack of relationship already hurts him. Which is why their relationship on imperial Rishi/Yavin just feels... all kinds of wrong to me, and I frankly do not like it. Number one thing I do not like about the story on the imperial side. Edited May 16, 2023 by cannibithobbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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