Thanks for Theron Shan. <3 <3 <3 This is a love thread, haters make your own lol.

[cannibithobbal]

ok, sweet, I'm gonna see if I can get the book somewhere for a decent price, or a library for free or something.  I wanna read about Theron being an awesome spy who beats the empire in his underwear

(I looked it up and omg the cover art though lmao, they need to get a better artist, that looks nothing like Theron, like they just drew a generic ugly action hero bro and put Theron's implants on him wtf 🙃)

Edited May 15, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[eabevella]

33 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

ok, sweet, I'm gonna see if I can get the book somewhere for a decent price, or a library for free or something.  I wanna read about Theron being an awesome spy who beats the empire in his underwear

(I looked it up and omg the cover art though lmao, they need to get a better artist, that looks nothing like Theron, like they just drew a generic ugly action hero bro and put Theron's implants on him wtf 🙃)

I am reading the book right now and it's entertaining so far.

There already are a lot of past trauma between Theron and Jedi which is... ouch my heart but it's good.

They made the comic and the book before they redesigned Theron's look in the game. In the very beginning of the book it's said Theron has pale skin and brown eyes which are inferior to his hazel (?) eyes in game. I'm so glad they made Theron unique lol

[JakRoanin]

See, that's why I think Theron and Force Users are a bad idea, too much subconscious drama there.

[eabevella]

42 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

See, that's why I think Theron and Force Users are a bad idea, too much subconscious drama there.

I rolled my eyes whenever Satele showed up. I get why she did what she did, I don't even think she's the bad guy in a relationship dilemma but geese, she could have handled things way better. The Jedi teaching really messes up how they deal with emotion and relationship, romantic or not, by completely avoiding them.

I'm even more happy about my joke-first serious-latter background of my agent's non-Force sensitive pureblood Sith setting. He is well aware of the Jedi's hypocrisy from seeing Theron's trauma since Rishi when he doesn't have a famous Sith family name to worry about.

SWTOR toned down a lot of Theron's background issues with the Jedi, which is a good thing for the players. It makes his dialogues with the Jedi lighter. And potential for fan fictions to deal with all the water under bridge.

On the other hand, Darth Marr in the book is *chef kiss*, exactly what I imagine he is, which is a great surprise to me.

[JakRoanin]

I'm not going to judge Satele harshly, as I said before she didn't have tons of options. And again, Jace Malcolm is just not parent material at all. What was she supposed to do? 

[Goreshaga]

17 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

See, that's why I think Theron and Force Users are a bad idea, too much subconscious drama there.

Yet despite his issues with the Jedi he still considers Gnost-Dural a friend by the end of the book, and that's like 2 years before he meets our PC. I'll never understand why they felt the need to make Theron and Satele's relationship worst on imp side than pub side during SoR though.

If he can befriend a Jedi in such a short time, he can fall in love with another one over the course of a whole year, maybe even while trying not to, especially if said Jedi is a fairly unorthodox one.

To each their own i guess. I would definitely not see Theron with a DS Sith who supports the Empire in everything and who would go against everything he believes in (that being said, it also applies to NFU pro-Empire DS imp toons), i'd definitely not see him with a Jedi like my Consular who was raised by the Jedi and has a very Jedi mindset to the point of being somewhat preachy sometimes, very serious and respectful of the rules and all that, and who wants others to follow the rules as much as he does. My JK on the other hand wasn't raised by the Jedi, she joined when she was a bit older and spent most of her childhood with her familly, she can get pretty close to other people despite the non attachement rule, she does consider Kira like a sister after all and doesn't really care actually about that non-attachement rule, she left Jomar and Leeha alone with their secret love story, she also questions rules a lot, she can work with Theron, because she's not exactly the perfect Jedi, so it'd be easier for him to forget she's one when he's not really paying attention to that.

I like their dynamic tbh, they both have different strengths and weaknesses and different skillsets that actually complement each other really well, and while they don't always agree on everything, they still share common values and morals, which imo, is very important for a relationship to work.

[eabevella]

47 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

I'm not going to judge Satele harshly, as I said before she didn't have tons of options. And again, Jace Malcolm is just not parent material at all. What was she supposed to do? 

Jace does sound radical during the broke up scene with Satele even though the dialogue is a bit cringe. She did the right thing breaking up while she could. But I'm in firm believe that she should not have given Theron the Shan surname so he could have grown up as some random, normal kid, in the care of an ordinary family with good reputation (like Leia) even though it means he may or may not join the SIS as a result. Talk about no attachment but apparently not keeping the Revan-Shan bloodline through material words is too difficult. Also, if the Order took the Leia route, they can still take Theron in if he's Force sensitive. No one get hurts no matter the outcome. But I guess Emotional Damage is the Jedi expertise.

I do hope the book wrote something more about Jace's "dark side". I need to see more about his attitude/interaction to Theron to judge, hopefully in later chapters because he barely showed up in game.

37 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

Yet despite his issues with the Jedi he still considers Gnost-Dural a friend by the end of the book, and that's like 2 years before he meets our PC. I'll never understand why they felt the need to make Theron and Satele's relationship worst on imp side than pub side during SoR though.

If he can befriend a Jedi in such a short time, he can fall in love with another one over the course of a whole year, maybe even while trying not to, especially if said Jedi is a fairly unorthodox one.

To each their own i guess. I would definitely not see Theron with a DS Sith who supports the Empire in everything and who would go against everything he believes in (that being said, it also applies to NFU pro-Empire DS imp toons), i'd definitely not see him with a Jedi like my Consular who was raised by the Jedi and has a very Jedi mindset to the point of being somewhat preachy sometimes, very serious and respectful of the rules and all that, and who wants others to follow the rules as much as he does. My JK on the other hand wasn't raised by the Jedi, she joined when she was a bit older and spent most of her childhood with her familly, she can get pretty close to other people despite the non attachement rule, she does consider Kira like a sister after all and doesn't really care actually about that non-attachement rule, she left Jomar and Leeha alone with their secret love story, she also questions rules a lot, she can work with Theron, because she's not exactly the perfect Jedi, so it'd be easier for him to forget she's one when he's not really paying attention to that.

I like their dynamic tbh, they both have different strengths and weaknesses and different skillsets that actually complement each other really well, and while they don't always agree on everything, they still share common values and morals, which imo, is very important for a relationship to work.

Funny I always think the Rishi final cutscene on Pub side where Satele was trying to talk to Theron but was turned down by Theron saying he's busy waaaaay more awkward.

Personally I don't think Theron would side with a DS Imperial supporter unless someone write something in long, extensive details to break his character (side note: I always wish we can break Carth and make him turn dark side if we have the kotor2 comp system in kotor1). Not an option I'll take but an interesting concept if done right. Too bad SWTOR is still a MMO not a single player game so such diversity is impossible.

I got the feeling from the book so far that Theron has a lot of legit criticism to the Jedi as a whole, but he's pretty fair to the individual Jedi. It's not strange to imagine him liking one if they are not the on the high horse type.

Edited May 15, 2023 by eabevella

[JakRoanin]

I didn't think that on Imp side has a worse relationship between Satele and Theron. In fact, I loved the fact that my BH could actively encouraged him to talk to her about how he feels. I thought that Pub side was more awkward and resentful.

[Goreshaga]

48 minutes ago, eabevella said:

Funny I always think the Rishi final cutscene on Pub side where Satele was trying to talk to Theron but was turned down by Theron saying he's busy waaaaay more awkward.

Personally I don't think Theron would side with a DS Imperial supporter unless someone write something in long, extensive details to break his character (side note: I always wish we can break Carth and make him turn dark side if we have the kotor2 comp system in kotor1). Not an option I'll take but an interesting concept if done right. Too bad SWTOR is still a MMO not a single player game so such diversity is impossible.

I got the feeling from the book so far that Theron has a lot of legit criticism to the Jedi as a whole, but he's pretty fair to the individual Jedi. It's not strange to imagine him liking one if they are not the on the high horse type.

Dunno, that's mostly the part where she calls him "her agent", which is a very cold way for her to call him and he responds with something like "it's like it's a coincidence we have the same name" where he does sound resentful in response that made it feels like the relationship was worse for me on imp side. Because when he tells her "he's busy" at the end of Rishi, it's true, they don't really have time to waste, and it seems he's more interested talking to you than her at that precise moment, as he's also trying to tell you about his suspiscions about Lana's involvement in his capture.

Yeah i don't think either unless he changes a lot of things about himself to the point of becoming an entirely different person.

Yep, he does have his issues with the Order, but while he may start a bit more reserved when dealing with a Jedi he'll treat them fairly once he gets to know them. Honestly with my JK's behavior, i imagine Theron being amused and irritated at the same time.

[JakRoanin]

I always took the "my Agent" line as Satele's attempt at professionalism. After all, the circumstances are rather dire. He's much colder to her in the Pub version.

[Goreshaga]

7 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

I always took the "my Agent" line as Satele's attempt at professionalism. After all, the circumstances are rather dire. He's much colder to her in the Pub version.

It may be a language/VA difference then, because i've never played SoR in english and in french they sound much colder towards each other on imp side than he does on pub side.

[JakRoanin]

Now that makes sense. In English there is a whole different vibe, imo. In English, Theron is curt to Satele and tries mild sarcasm to assure PC that he's totally not bitter at all, (doesn't work for me) and Satele is awkward because, her son's just been tortured, she's face-to-face with Darth Marr, there's a galactic crises, and when she was Theron's age she was being targeted because she's related to Revan. Again, I always feel that she tried her best knowing that she couldn't win.

[eabevella]

4 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

Dunno, that's mostly the part where she calls him "her agent", which is a very cold way for her to call him and he responds with something like "it's like it's a coincidence we have the same name" where he does sound resentful in response that made it feels like the relationship was worse for me on imp side. Because when he tells her "he's busy" at the end of Rishi, it's true, they don't really have time to waste, and it seems he's more interested talking to you than her at that precise moment, as he's also trying to tell you about his suspiscions about Lana's involvement in his capture.

Yeah i don't think either unless he changes a lot of things about himself to the point of becoming an entirely different person.

Yep, he does have his issues with the Order, but while he may start a bit more reserved when dealing with a Jedi he'll treat them fairly once he gets to know them. Honestly with my JK's behavior, i imagine Theron being amused and irritated at the same time.

I think Satele's attitude on the Imp side was fair because Darth Marr was there too, and the last thing she wanted was to let the de facto head Sith think there's a possibility that she has "personal attachment" with her son. There's no guarantee the Sith won't use Theron against her or kill Theron to simply hurt her. Which makes Theron's outburst to the Imp player... interesting because he really shouldn't exposed that much of himself.

[JakRoanin]

Just now, eabevella said:

I think Satele's attitude on the Imp side was fair because Darth Marr was there too, and the last thing she wanted was to let the de facto head Sith think there's a possibility that she has "personal attachment" with her son. There's no guarantee the Sith won't use Theron against her or kill Theron to simply hurt her. Which makes Theron's outburst to the Imp player... interesting because he really shouldn't exposed that much of himself.

This so much this! Marr isn't that sadistic for no reason but he does dig at Satele of Yavin when he wants to torture the cult leader. Using Theron's skills to do it. Poor Satele gets such a bad rap. I'm not saying she did the right thing, but she did what she could. 

[Goreshaga]

8 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Now that makes sense. In English there is a whole different vibe, imo. In English, Theron is curt to Satele and tries mild sarcasm to assure PC that he's totally not bitter at all, (doesn't work for me) and Satele is awkward because, her son's just been tortured, she's face-to-face with Darth Marr, there's a galactic crises, and when she was Theron's age she was being targeted because she's related to Revan. Again, I always feel that she tried her best knowing that she couldn't win.

Yeah would have to watch in english to see the difference.

Just rewarched the scene in french he's fairly neutral to Satele there, but he's very pissed at Lana once Satele is out, so it may also be why he's not overly nice to Satele in english as he wants to confront Lana about her getting him captured and tortured, so his attitude may simply be a way to get Satele out before confronting Lana.

1 minute ago, eabevella said:

I think Satele's attitude on the Imp side was fair because Darth Marr was there too, and the last thing she wanted was to let the de facto head Sith think there's a possibility that she has "personal attachment" with her son. There's no guarantee the Sith won't use Theron against her or kill Theron to simply hurt her. Which makes Theron's outburst to the Imp player... interesting because he really shouldn't exposed that much of himself.

Yeah i always found it kinda odd for him to open up that much about the whole situation with Satele to imp characters, baceuse, especially after what Lana did, he doesn't have that many reasons to trust them.

[eabevella]

1 minute ago, JakRoanin said:

This so much this! Marr isn't that sadistic for no reason but he does dig at Satele of Yavin when he wants to torture the cult leader. Using Theron's skills to do it. Poor Satele gets such a bad rap. I'm not saying she did the right thing, but she did what she could. 

That's why I can't hate her like some people do.

Yes I think she did make some bad calls. But most of her decisions are what she had to do under the circumstances.

I'm glad the game gave opportunity to fix her relationship with Theron because apparently they both wanted it.

[eabevella]

8 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

Yeah would have to watch in english to see the difference.

Just rewarched the scene in french he's fairly neutral to Satele there, but he's very pissed at Lana once Satele is out, so it may also be why he's not overly nice to Satele in english as he wants to confront Lana about her getting him captured and tortured, so his attitude may simply be a way to get Satele out before confronting Lana.

Yeah i always found it kinda odd for him to open up that much about the whole situation with Satele to imp characters, baceuse, especially after what Lana did, he doesn't have that many reasons to trust them.

I guess he just had a slight slip especially if you picked the option to force Lana, a Sith Lord no matter how "nice" she seems, to apologize to him because he doesn't have people going out for him like this often.

Edited May 15, 2023 by eabevella

[JakRoanin]

Something that I will never ever understand is why people don't take in consideration the timing around Theron's birth with what was going on with the Jedi and the War. I mean, it's not like she was just being a normal Jedi role. She was integral to the events there. She wasn't chillin' in the archives.

[eabevella]

8 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Something that I will never ever understand is why people don't take in consideration the timing around Theron's birth with what was going on with the Jedi and the War. I mean, it's not like she was just being a normal Jedi role. She was integral to the events there. She wasn't chillin' in the archives.

Tbh I'm more amused by the fact that the Republic and the Jedi don't seem to know/have the thing that's called contraception lol

It's not like it's only a one night stand. But I guess story need to written so...

[JakRoanin]

Malcolm is equally responsible for that. It always makes me wonder why Jedi don't just use the Force to stop their cycles.

[eabevella]

Just now, JakRoanin said:

Malcolm is equally responsible for that. It always makes me wonder why Jedi don't just use the Force to stop their cycles.

He especially should have known better. The Force is only useful when the plot demands. I would totally begging for the possibility of being a Jedi if I could stop my cycles. It's not too much too ask for when some Jedi old man can hibernate in ice using the Force ><

[JakRoanin]

I remember in an old novel when Mara Jade sensed she was pregnant she was mad at herself for not doing just that. PS. Male Jedi should be able to use the Force for birth control too.

[Goreshaga]

The Force or some kind of medicinal herbs, i guess Jedi use them too, so it'd probably be possible to make some kind of birth control or morning-after pill, though the second option may be against Jedi principles, but the first one seems to be a good idea, unless Jedi while trying to discourage attachement, try to promote one night stands leading to not necessarily wanted pregnancies.

[JakRoanin]

Jedi aren't anti-modern medicine. I guess the thought was if you were going to persue private pleasure don't advertise it.

[cannibithobbal]

Oh man, a lot to respond to, too many different things to quote, I'll just respond to stuff generally, this is prolly gonna be rambly, sorry in advance lol:

I think it seems people who main imp side and played that storyline first find that version of Theron and Satele's relationship more normal and republic side weirdly worse/colder but those of us who main republic characters and played that storyline first find that version of Theron and Satele's relationship more normal and imperial side weirdly worse/colder.  This makes sense to me, honestly, first order familiarity and such.  As I played the republic version of SoR 4 times before I played it on imperial, I did not like how they made him and Satele's relationship feel so much worse there (and I did play in English, I don't think it's a language thing).

Personally I always read Satele trying to talk to Theron and him saying "we'll talk later" not as him being cold and not wanting to talk to her at all but as he still has to confront Lana and find out if it's true that she got him captured, and he means it when he says he will talk with Satele later, and any perceived coldness in his tone is actually his preparing to confront Lana and being angry with her.  Whereas on imperial side he straight up vents about how cold Satele is calling him "my agent" (and, rightfully so, I don't understand why she says that either!!)   To me the latter version is a way worse relationship.  But if that is the version of their relationship you know better than I can see how the other version would seem strange.

I definitely think that both Theron and Satele have both wanted for a long time to mend their relationship (maybe even their whole lives, tbh, but certainly for many years), and know the other better, but neither one really knew how and Satele had so many Jedi duties and Theron had too much pain surrounding his abandonment, so neither one really makes any attempt to approach the other until they find themselves working closely together on Yavin, and then other events later in the story.  But it makes me so happy that they slowly get to become closer and heal those wounds.

People who hate Satele can come through me, honestly. 

I love her, and I fully understand why she had to make the decision that she did to give Theron up.  She was basically between a rock and a hard place and short of taking him and running away from all responsibilities and living in hiding, the Jedi left her no choice.  And she had no way to know he was not force sensitive, in the history of SW universe it is rare for children of Jedi or Sith to not be, and if he was force sensitive then they would have taken him away to train as a Jedi anyway so giving him to a Jedi she trusts and absolutely telling Malcolm nothing was better than giving him to some randos and then hoping if the Jedi take him that he goes somewhere good.  She made the best decision possible in an incredibly difficult situation.  Her decision left Theron a lot of trauma and abandonment issues, but in the end, he turned out alright, he grew up a super good caring person who just wants to do the right thing, and in spite of his trauma he always cared about her anyway, and they were able to mend their relationship eventually. 

 

Probably an obvious statement from me, but hard disagree that Theron being romantic with Jedi is somehow against his character or bad for him.  As mentioned he makes friends with individual Jedi, and he always cares about his mother even though she's literally the one who abandoned him, and he never talks negatively about Master Zho either.  If he becomes close and learns he can trust an individual Jedi after working with them closely for months/a year/however long forged alliances/Rishi is, and especially if that Jedi is clearly into him and openly so, then while it might be a different relationship than with non-Jedi, that doesn't make it wrong for him.  I definitely do still think that an off-screen discussion happens between them though where Theron questions how the Jedi attachments code fits into them being together and the Jedi tells him that they never agreed with that rule (especially the Jedi Knight who literally gets to say that earlier in the story). 

And I also think that all through SoR/Ziost, no matter what republic character you are playing on, the relationship is always kind of played like it could be the start of something serious or just potentially a mission-bound fling.  The "for when you wake up" letter from Theron basically confirms this, where he says that they never defined what their relationship was but that he cares a lot and hopes they still care about him back.  The one imperial version I did definitely felt like it was always played as a fling that was always going to end after that mission even if they were into each other, but he does send the same letter regardless.  To me the letter doesn't really work so well with the imperial version, or at least not with a sith lol  but he does send it.

 

.....I'm honestly not even gonna touch the "should Jedi just use birth control, should Satele have done it" discussion lol  (that is such a huge can of worms) other than to say, if Satele had we wouldn't have Theron, and that would suck.  So. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by cannibithobbal