Total Gap?

[olagatonjedi]

Sounds like someone needs an advantage or they can't win

Everyone has a chance at any advantages, thus there is no advantage.

[sithBracer]

Everyone has a chance at any advantages, thus there is no advantage.

 

I am going to assume this is a troll, but in the small case it's not I'll address it. Just because you have a chance doesn't mean you are not at a disadvantage. For example if we roll a 6 sided dice with the rules being 1-5 is my win and a 6 is yours; I have a 5:1 advantage over you when it comes to winning. You still have a chance, but I have a huge advantage over you. If we have a race and I get a head start, even though you still have a chance I have an advantage. Any time one person has to put in more effort to reach the same results as another person, that person is disadvantaged.

[sithBracer]

First, gear is a goal when you play an MMO. You want to progress something, have a carrot to chase after, so to speak. The value of said gear is also important. While we may trade argument about the current 5.0 gearing method, compare all the ages etc etc, the point remains that yes, in the end having better gear, and working toward that better gear is important. How long it takes and how its done is another matter that is not the point of this thread. Bolster is there to ensure a basic entry level, not totally negating the advantage of working toward better gear.

 

This "carrot" argument has been addressed many times. In a variable environment like PvP, getting better and more skillful is the carrot. You can add some nice titles, or shiny rewards as a sort of cherry on top, but you don't need to hand out something that gives you an advantage (and in this case a pretty big one) over newer players. Your advantage will be your skill over them and for most people that is enough to get them to keep PvPing.

 

Before 5.0 when pvp comms were like sand, most PvPers amassed enough comms to keep them geared for several seasons, yet no one stopped PvPing. Not only that, it encouraged people to start gearing and using alts more than in the ranked comm days when PvP gear was very expensive.

 

Gear gaps have historically kept people out of PvP. PvP gear gap was a pretty debated topic back in the 1.X days and many people have stated many times in the genchat that they did not want to join pvp because they thought their lack of gear would make them a burden. This continued on into the 2.X days as well when people were not aware of the bolster. There were many cases where I explained how bolster works, how to abuse it to get the best stats, and in every single case, those people who would not join PvP ended up PvPing more than me.

 

So historically, cheaper/quicker gear only encouraged more PvP and more use of alts, while expensive slow gear grinds discouraged some people from joining and discouraged some PvPers from using alts.

 

And finally, just for the sake argument, even if you are right, there is still a gear grind even if bolster was set to 250. The grind to get the set bonus pieces and min-maxing stats. At this point it would not be shorter than it was to get the tier 2 left side with tier 2 MH/OH and tier 1 right side before 5.0, so the grind would at worst be the same.

 

2nd, there is a crafting economy to consider. In order for crafted components to mean something, they have to be above bolster. If they are not, then you effectively cut from the market all the pvpers. Crafting should also be the way to be more competitive faster on alts, if you so desire, but not a given. using leftovers 242/246 from your main as you finish gearing it is also a very valid option through legacy gear. This last part mostly adress the argument that more bolster is good since it promotes alting.

 

The crafting economy was more than fine before when pvp mods could not be crafted. People can still craft and sell mods/enhancements/hilts for PvE'ers. People can still craft and sell augments for min-maxing purposes, people can still craft and sell relics, dyes, crystals, stims.

 

Yes, thats important, but not by voiding "maining", and there are ways to make "maining" alt friendly that I think the dev are heading toward (granted, at a slow pace).

 

I have no idea what you are talking about, but if the devs need time to fix this mess, then they can take all the time they need. Just while they are taking their time raising bolster for their paying customers would be appreciated. Once they undo all the damage the GC nonsense has done and allow people to gear for PvP at the quick pace many are used to, then they can lower bolster.

 

3rd, when bolster is too high, you start seeing people "playing" bolster, by gearing certain tier, they do not all bolster the same, and some people are pros at experiencing and eventually will find an advantage either way through "better bolster". Point in case of 5.0, old 208 pvp gear made getting new better piece of gear not a good idea. That sort of thinking is massively counter productive.

 

So? Is there a point to this? As long as they are PvPing and enjoying themselves why do you care what like 5% of PvPers do with their game? It doesn't affect you personally does it? You can game the bolster too if you want, no one is stopping you. If the advantage is too big with 208s, then that is a bug and should be fixed. The end goal is similar stats.

 

to answer your final statement, and stay in this thread topic, with current bolster the "gap" is small, and will become even smaller when bolster goes from 238 to 242. TBH I think its a bit too high, for the reasons stated above (value of being max geared, vs naked with bolster is very close) Nothing about "wanting to keep" my current advantage. My whole point is that "my current advantage" is primarily my knowledge of pvp and this game's classes and dcds, not my gear.

 

The current gap is 20%-25%, that is not small. That is just the stats, that is not counting set bonus. That is one of the biggest gaps I have seen since the 2.X days when people came into wzs with 172's. If they make it 242, it will not be so bad.

 

If your skill is so good you wouldn't make up BS reasons and parrot very old "carrot" arguments that have been debunked as a way to justify you still keeping an artificial gear advantage. You would want anyone, regardless if it was a new player or an experienced vet on an alt to be on a completely equal playing field.

[Jdast]

I am going to assume this is a troll, but in the small case it's not I'll address it. Just because you have a chance doesn't mean you are not at a disadvantage. For example if we roll a 6 sided dice with the rules being 1-5 is my win and a 6 is yours; I have a 5:1 advantage over you when it comes to winning. You still have a chance, but I have a huge advantage over you. If we have a race and I get a head start, even though you still have a chance I have an advantage. Any time one person has to put in more effort to reach the same results as another person, that person is disadvantaged.

 

That isn't what he is arguing. He is arguing that everyone has the same opportunity to accrue the advantage, in this case, BIS.

 

To use your race example: My grinding out boots which grant me +5% speed may give me an advantage, but nothing is stopping you from grinding out to get the same pair of boots. The net result would be equalization.

 

I understand you disagree philosophically with any type of gear gap, an argument I'm not going to get into because it has been beaten to death so much that the horse is now glue or fossil fuel and the devs disagree with you but...

 

Your criticism of his argument is simply off the mark.

 

TL:DR: You can grind out BIS too.

 

Dasty

[VaeVictis]

Sounds like someone needs an advantage or they can't win

 

Sounds like someone needs excuses for why they lose.

 

Maybe create a poll about what excuse bads will turn to once Bolster gets increased to 242...probably class balance. Maybe premades. We can save time and just sticky the threads from the 3.0 days.

[verfallen]

This "carrot" argument has been addressed many times. In a variable environment like PvP, getting better and more skillful is the carrot. You can add some nice titles, or shiny rewards as a sort of cherry on top, but you don't need to hand out something that gives you an advantage (and in this case a pretty big one) over newer players. Your advantage will be your skill over them and for most people that is enough to get them to keep PvPing.

`

 

Midbies and lowbies call BS on that, all by themselves. They are dead, because no more carrots. Seriously try a little harder to bring an actually valid argument. If that was true, they'd be full of happy pvpers gaining their skill carrots.

 

Before 5.0 when pvp comms were like sand, most PvPers amassed enough comms to keep them geared for several seasons, yet no one stopped PvPing. Not only that, it encouraged people to start gearing and using alts more than in the ranked comm days when PvP gear was very expensive.

 

Gear gaps have historically kept people out of PvP. PvP gear gap was a pretty debated topic back in the 1.X days and many people have stated many times in the genchat that they did not want to join pvp because they thought their lack of gear would make them a burden. This continued on into the 2.X days as well when people were not aware of the bolster. There were many cases where I explained how bolster works, how to abuse it to get the best stats, and in every single case, those people who would not join PvP ended up PvPing more than me.

 

So historically, cheaper/quicker gear only encouraged more PvP and more use of alts, while expensive slow gear grinds discouraged some people from joining and discouraged some PvPers from using alts.

`

 

You'd use to get a certain entry level pretty much equal to current Bolster, or what it will be, that is the rating just under BiS. We are far from 1.0 days were even before they gave us the basic blue set to "bolster" ourself, you'd get nuked by battlemaster gear with 0 expertise. Even 3.0-4.0, you'd get nuked in pvp with no gear, however you did acquire the first tier fast enough. I agree you don't want people to think they are a burden, but there is a difference between bolster to above max, and bolster to adequate. you keep actually talking as if there was no bolster at all.

 

Thank you also for saying that you like "abusing" bolster to get the best stat. That goes straight into my argument about why too much of it is bad, and you sir a prime exemple of it. In no shape or form should it be logical to use "less" good mods in your actual gear because of how bolster work. Point. I'm all for a reasonnable bolster to help people start into PvP, and this is what we actually have, much better than any other age.

 

And finally, just for the sake argument, even if you are right, there is still a gear grind even if bolster was set to 250. The grind to get the set bonus pieces and min-maxing stats. At this point it would not be shorter than it was to get the tier 2 left side with tier 2 MH/OH and tier 1 right side before 5.0, so the grind would at worst be the same.

 

Wrong. You'd only need 230 which are ridiculous to get since the change where command token buy them directly. There is absolutely no gear grind to be had there.

 

 

 

The crafting economy was more than fine before when pvp mods could not be crafted. People can still craft and sell mods/enhancements/hilts for PvE'ers. People can still craft and sell augments for min-maxing purposes, people can still craft and sell relics, dyes, crystals, stims.

 

Empty words. Tbh imo all aspect of end-game should have crafting factored in to a decent level. Choice to buy or make mods for yourself for a price, which are above the entry level (either 1st easy to get set or bolster) but below BiS. Basically "P2W" but in game currency and economy. Because it wasn't like this before doesnt make it wrong. Actually your whole post is filled about how it was bad before. Augments are freely availaible, I'm talking about harder to get mods through RE or schematics.

 

Obviously not ALL the economy of the game is gear or mods. Lot of aesthetic and consumables to be found. Doesnt mean crafted gear doesnt deserve its just place among that.

 

 

 

I have no idea what you are talking about, but if the devs need time to fix this mess, then they can take all the time they need. Just while they are taking their time raising bolster for their paying customers would be appreciated. Once they undo all the damage the GC nonsense has done and allow people to gear for PvP at the quick pace many are used to, then they can lower bolster.

 

The gearing method can certainly be discussed, and you'll get no argument from me that gearing ONLY through components is wrist cutting inducing. GC boxes itself is just random luck, and not a real primary gearing way. The actual issue is by having only 1 set of gear, there are ways that make gearing to full the fastest it has every been in the 5 years of the game, assuming you do more than just pvp or just pve. If you do just pvp, you'll get to 248 with probably a depression along.

 

If you do just pve, unless you are in a top ops team, you'll never go above 242 other than through crates, altough you'll go fast there.

 

If you do both, you get a 242 shell from HM ops, then turn it into 248 with components. How to go from 0 to BiS in a month.

 

As for making things more alt friendly, you see it in their stated intention to make all currencies legacy wide. So you'll be able to play your "bis" to gear your new toons.

 

But making gear matter absolutely not is just laziness on your part, I'm sorry. It already matters very little.

 

 

 

So? Is there a point to this? As long as they are PvPing and enjoying themselves why do you care what like 5% of PvPers do with their game? It doesn't affect you personally does it? You can game the bolster too if you want, no one is stopping you. If the advantage is too big with 208s, then that is a bug and should be fixed. The end goal is similar stats.

 

The end goal of bolster is not similar stat, but an entry field that gives a decent fighting chance. Also, if bolsters is not above the max gear tier, it totally cancel any unplanned effect.

 

Also, talking about "even" leveling field, not everyone has a pvp guild that will run a crapload of test and keep the info to themselves should they find a flaw. Are you sure YOU are not the one trying to get an advantage few can have?

 

 

 

The current gap is 20%-25%, that is not small. That is just the stats, that is not counting set bonus. That is one of the biggest gaps I have seen since the 2.X days when people came into wzs with 172's. If they make it 242, it will not be so bad.

 

its currently 238, they'll slightly up it to 242. The difference in dps is roughly 5-7% from 242 to 248. I'd suggest you go with that other guy back on the 4th grade math class ASAP. Assuming a somewhat similar gap from 238 to 242, you get roughly 10-14% difference in raw output. Maybe a bit less, as 242-248 was a pretty big leap power wise.

 

Again with set bonus, which are child play to get, much more than ever before. And again, expertise ensured that while "stat" looked close with 2.0 bolster, they in fact were vastly inferior, and pvp geared people would eat pve geared newcomer with bolster. Again, lowbie and midbies were thriving from the carrot of getting gear before reaching max level.

 

If your skill is so good you wouldn't make up BS reasons and parrot very old "carrot" arguments that have been debunked as a way to justify you still keeping an artificial gear advantage. You would want anyone, regardless if it was a new player or an experienced vet on an alt to be on a completely equal playing field.

 

So far, all I've seen are argument for easy, theories which were proven false by practice, and lots of unbased facts.

 

That last little jibe to try and turn this into an epeen skill contest does you no credit. The very "old" carrot argument has been proven time and time again across the ages of our history as a civilization, not just in game, but also in this game.

 

If you don't believe me, then may I refer you to 2.0 16m runs, 16m xeno when gree event came out (there was a reason we wanted 16m and not 8m, even before the leeming rush bug), the more recent 5.0 dead ops that brough back to life when they adjusted their cxp, the uprising that got brough in line and are suddenly ran a lot less.

 

Its human nature to want reward for your actions, and given the choice between 2 actions you'll take the most rewarding one, among other factors.

 

So yes, the "carrot" always was and will be important.

 

Yes in game economy should always be taken into account.

 

Yes, gear should matter, without being a rolf-stomp of the new player that has not acquired it yet. This is what bolster is for, setting an acceptable "floor" level vs the BiS "ceiling" level, not punching a hole through it.

[verfallen]

I am going to assume this is a troll, but in the small case it's not I'll address it. Just because you have a chance doesn't mean you are not at a disadvantage. For example if we roll a 6 sided dice with the rules being 1-5 is my win and a 6 is yours; I have a 5:1 advantage over you when it comes to winning. You still have a chance, but I have a huge advantage over you. If we have a race and I get a head start, even though you still have a chance I have an advantage. Any time one person has to put in more effort to reach the same results as another person, that person is disadvantaged.

 

That post is a massive exageration of the current situation, and a gross intellectual shortcut and falsehood.

 

Nothing else to say about it.

[DarthOvertone]

So I just tried it out on my 70 shadow and it was brutal. My max damage was 4120 and max bonus damage was about 2250, compared to a 248 shadow on my team (that wasn't even min maxed) who had 4900/2740 .

 

The stat gap in PvP is immense. It's ridiculous actually. I feel for anyone returning to this game or starting from scratch in PvP. You're going to take it in the butt royally for a long time, till Tier 3 at least, before you get some gear that starts making a difference. My condolences...

 

Just fix bolster to give each AC the same stats in PvP and let us duke it out on an even playing field. Anything else is douchebaggery.

Edited August 11, 2017 by DarthOvertone

[verfallen]

The stat gap in PvP is immense. It's ridiculous actually. I feel for anyone returning to this game or starting from scratch in PvP. You're going to take it in the butt royally for a long time, till Tier 3 at least, before you get some gear that starts making a difference. My condolences...

 

Just fix bolster to give each AC the same stats in PvP and let us duke it out on an even playing field. Anything else is douchebaggery.

 

lots of things we don't see in his post.

 

1st, was the shadow augmented full power? we only see one stat here. 2nd was HE augmented at all?

 

Unless i'm mistaken augments were always "left out" of bolster. So it would be a very easy way to make a bolstered toon look really bad next to a BiS one.

 

2nd, already covered the option to get into full 246 is there, via crafters. Can be a very short time.

 

3rd As said, its not douchebaggery to say "we should work for something in an MMO". Thats laziness not to want to.

 

And also, hilariously enough, the comment about tier 3 to make a difference, seeing as the bolster is above tier 2, and will soon be at max tier 3 level, yes you do have to be tier 4 for gear to make a difference, because you're bolstered to that level regardless of what you are wearing.

[MidichIorian]

You lost me at "new players"

[Foambreaker]

Sounds like someone needs an advantage or they can't win

 

If they didn't NEED the advantage they would not be defending it so hard.

[AlrikFassbauer]

You lost me at "new players"

 

We don't need them, right ?

Edited August 14, 2017 by AlrikFassbauer

[Jdast]

If they didn't NEED the advantage they would not be defending it so hard.

 

Yet somehow, someway, you and Icy are smarter than EVERY major MMORPG developer with regard to PvP warzones and battlegrounds. (FYI, LoL, HotS, DotA, etc. are not MMORPGs).

 

Your question has been asked and answered: You just don't like the answer.

 

That is all,

 

Dasty

[RevorteX]

Strange as it may seems while I supported going for a higher bolster, I frankly got intrigued by a few fellows in the game who craft 246 and sell them in the GTN to make a living in the game.

 

I understand through their eyes that increasing the bolster to 250 will mean their crafting,time consuming activities and all the stuff they do to make some "dough" in the game will be rendered useless. I tried to put myself in their shoes. I wouldn't feel nice that my items which I craft and sell are now just a waste of time and I can't find anything to do to make a nice badge of credits now.

 

I understand also the posts about pursuing top gear in an MMO enviroment,yeah to be honest if the bolster is made to 250 what will people aim for except the usual thing - go higher up the ladder in ranking? Some people enjoy gear seeking - like me,I enjoy aiming to get my toon buckled up and ready to fight,even if it's hard and the grind is infuriating.

 

I understand most people what their desire is - to be on the same boat and have the feeling of equality in this game. Yeah the feeling would be nice,you will feel more enthusiasm to play pvp. Won't it be fun when we can finally kill one another and skill is the only thing which decides the fight? I 'm sure it will be,for some time,until everyone gets bored from it.

 

I understand one thing - bolstering to 250 will cause problems for some and solutions to others. It isn't fun to see people who are furious with an update. Yeah some were pleased and that could be a larger group,but aren't we all the same afterall? People trying to have fun?

 

We should put aside all our differences and go naked in PVP and only then will the fun begin.

[sithBracer]

If they didn't NEED the advantage they would not be defending it so hard.

 

No, no, no, you are just not understanding their arguments. You see according to them, pvp gear as a carrot in an mmo has existed throughout our history as a civilization. And remember: "not just in game, but also in this game". The proof? Well the genius evidence is that in 2.X (when the game had like 10x more people) people used to do xeno (who was at level 50) 16 man ... and now ... they don't. This is clearly the result of bolster being too high in pvp.

 

Remember that "Its human nature to want reward for your actions", and clearly there is absolutely no other possible reward in PvP other than something that gives you an advantage against players who came after you ... nope ... none at all.

 

If you truly want to understand them, just drink some bleach, don't read anything and just write about past civilizations, battle master gear, p2w (because literally everyone loves that) and anything else that has nothing to do with the topic of gear and bolster in pvp.

[Foambreaker]

No, no, no, you are just not understanding their arguments. You see according to them, pvp gear as a carrot in an mmo has existed throughout our history as a civilization. And remember: "not just in game, but also in this game". The proof? Well the genius evidence is that in 2.X (when the game had like 10x more people) people used to do xeno (who was at level 50) 16 man ... and now ... they don't. This is clearly the result of bolster being too high in pvp.

 

Remember that "Its human nature to want reward for your actions", and clearly there is absolutely no other possible reward in PvP other than something that gives you an advantage against players who came after you ... nope ... none at all.

 

If you truly want to understand them, just drink some bleach, don't read anything and just write about past civilizations, battle master gear, p2w (because literally everyone loves that) and anything else that has nothing to do with the topic of gear and bolster in pvp.

 

The thing is these amateurs do not understand the concepts of sandbox versus instanced MMOs:

• It is ok to have gear advantages in a TRUE SANDBOX because you have to PvP or risk PvP in Open World to get gear.
  
• It is not ok in instanced MMOs (aka SWTOR) because players can PvE to get gear, without ANY RISK and then have advantage over other players in PvP. That is just lame design and has been considered such since UO Renaissance added Trammel
  

[sithBracer]

Yet somehow, someway, you and Icy are smarter than EVERY major MMORPG developer with regard to PvP warzones and battlegrounds. (FYI, LoL, HotS, DotA, etc. are not MMORPGs).

 

Your question has been asked and answered: You just don't like the answer.

 

That is all,

 

Dasty

 

Every other huh (except of course the ones you don't want on the list because it doesn't suit your narative).

 

Ok, lets look at some of the other major ones in the last few years shall we?

 

Lets get the mountain out of the way first.

 

WoW-gear has been an issue in WoW for a long time. People have been complaining about the gap since the start and blizzard has been making it easier and easier to get gear from many different places. In warlords gear became much easier to get and you were able to buy some of the old gear. In Legion they created their own bolster called the "stat template". This puts everyone on a starting point, lowers certain specs stats and raises other stats regardless of what the gear is. The maximum difference between the highest end pvp gear and any garbage gear is 11%. This was roughly the difference before 5.0 and getting gear was very easy and quick as it is in WoW atm. People really like the new system, it was received very well and instanced pvp is one of the things bored players are doing while waiting for new content.

 

guild wars 2-There was never a gear gap in this game as you were given max stats and all abilities in instanced pvp. The only difference was there were some runes you couldn't get, but the advantage the runes gave you in pvp was not that much. Skill is what matters in this game and pvp is one of its most liked features. Class balance still a problem though.

 

final fantasy 14-pvp? lololololololololololololololololololololololololololol ... thats a good one.

 

black desert online-its just a ganking game, no instanced pvp. Aside from PKer trolls, I don't know of any serious pvp in this game.

 

blade and soul-It was popular a year ago especially for its pvp (it is still pretty popular but lack of updates hurt). Stats were equalized in instanced arena matches. Stats weren't equalized for world pvp. World pvp was very rare.

 

wild star-also a very popular game 2 years ago. PvP was a huge thing there, but the dungeon/raid bosses were its big thing. One of the issues in pvp was gear (it had A LOT of other issues though, bots being the biggest in low level pvp). People would reach 1800 get the best gear, then tank their rating to obliterate lower rated players. The gear imbalance was one of the reasons why the game died so quickly. And carbine's refusal to make it f2p and merge servers increased that imbalance as more players left. Today after fixing their issues wild star pve population has increased from "dead" to "on life support", pvp population never recovered. Too bad, this is a very good game.

 

Rift-This is definitely not the best example as this game has had very bad pvp balance overall, but long tiresome gear grind, pretty bad balance. Looking at the forums I saw a lot of people do not like it and the overall pvp health of the game shows as there is not a lot of it now nor has there been one for a long time.

 

eve online-no idea how their pvp works. Maybe someone else can fill us in.

 

Tera-Very long pvp gear grind (pretty standard with eastern mmo's). With many different tiers of gear people can be grinding for months and not get much. The PvP health of tera is pretty low atm and the grind is one of the reasons I see on the forums. PvE in tera is amazing though (or so I read). I never touched this one, so if anyone has more info please fill us in.

 

So far the only thing I have been able to establish is that long gear grinds hurts pvp and lots of content helps the overall game. None of the games I looked at does a long gear grind for PvP actually help pvp. At worst it is neutral.

[Foambreaker]

eve online-no idea how their pvp works. Maybe someone else can fill us in....

 

EVE is a pure sandbox with ship to ship PvP. If you lose your ship is destroyed and you have to buy a new ship. Fleet battles with as many as 1000 ships on each side. One server, no instances for any activity. Skill, not level based. There really is no comparison to instanced MMOs like SWTOR because the competition extends beyond just fighting to the accumulation of wealth. Average players on server runs from ~19k off hours to as many as 50k prime time.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Foambreaker

[sithBracer]

The thing is these amateurs do not understand the concepts of sandbox versus instanced MMOs:

• It is ok to have gear advantages in a TRUE SANDBOX because you have to PvP or risk PvP in Open World to get gear.
  
• It is not ok in instanced MMOs (aka SWTOR) because players can PvE to get gear, without ANY RISK and then have advantage over other players in PvP. That is just lame design and has been considered such since UO Renaissance added Trammel
  

 

They also do not understand the concept of PvE progression, which is why they keep trying to equate PvE progression to PvP-which are 2 completely different things.

[Jdast]

No, no, no, you are just not understanding their arguments. You see according to them, pvp gear as a carrot in an mmo has existed throughout our history as a civilization. And remember: "not just in game, but also in this game". The proof? Well the genius evidence is that in 2.X (when the game had like 10x more people) people used to do xeno (who was at level 50) 16 man ... and now ... they don't. This is clearly the result of bolster being too high in pvp.

 

Remember that "Its human nature to want reward for your actions", and clearly there is absolutely no other possible reward in PvP other than something that gives you an advantage against players who came after you ... nope ... none at all.

 

If you truly want to understand them, just drink some bleach, don't read anything and just write about past civilizations, battle master gear, p2w (because literally everyone loves that) and anything else that has nothing to do with the topic of gear and bolster in pvp.

 

Sith,

 

You so discredited yourself earlier in this thread when you failed to understand Olag's argument about equality and did not respond to my brilliant post crushing you. Frankly, you are not worth engaging.

 

As to others, you simply have a choice: The producers of this game have asked for assistance in how to make PvP-gearing better, something many of us (myself included) believe needs improvement. Note that Keith himself acknowledged this point.

 

So, you can continue tilting at windmills or you can work within the defined parameters, even though you disagree with those parameters.

 

That is all,

 

Dasty

[olagatonjedi]

The thing is these amateurs do not understand the concepts of sandbox versus instanced MMOs:

• It is ok to have gear advantages in a TRUE SANDBOX because you have to PvP or risk PvP in Open World to get gear.
  
• It is not ok in instanced MMOs (aka SWTOR) because players can PvE to get gear, without ANY RISK and then have advantage over other players in PvP. That is just lame design and has been considered such since UO Renaissance added Trammel
  

Yep, everyone can PvE to build their toon before engaging in pvp, so it is a systen built on how much you want to work to either build an advantage early on, or match your competition later in the progression of each expansion. Everyone gets to choose and live with the benefits or the consequences of their decision, not Biowares.

[sithBracer]

Yep, everyone can PvE to build their toon before engaging in pvp, so it is a systen built on how much you want to work to either build an advantage early on, or match your competition later in the progression of each expansion. Everyone gets to choose and live with the benefits or the consequences of their decision, not Biowares.

 

Yes everyone can. But as he said this is lame design and usually drives players away. A lot of people do not want to grind static boring PvE content that they already did many times with every update in order to play the more dynamic PvP content. That is the argument, not whether you can or cannot.

 

Also BW has every right to enforce this on their players as it is their game, but it usually drives players elsewhere when a game gives them pointless grinds that have little to nothing to do with the content they are trying to play.

Edited August 15, 2017 by sithBracer

[Jdast]

Every other huh (except of course the ones you don't want on the list because it doesn't suit your narative).

 

Ok, lets look at some of the other major ones in the last few years shall we?

 

Lets get the mountain out of the way first.

 

WoW-gear has been an issue in WoW for a long time. People have been complaining about the gap since the start and blizzard has been making it easier and easier to get gear from many different places. In warlords gear became much easier to get and you were able to buy some of the old gear. In Legion they created their own bolster called the "stat template". This puts everyone on a starting point, lowers certain specs stats and raises other stats regardless of what the gear is. The maximum difference between the highest end pvp gear and any garbage gear is 11%. This was roughly the difference before 5.0 and getting gear was very easy and quick as it is in WoW atm. People really like the new system, it was received very well and instanced pvp is one of the things bored players are doing while waiting for new content.

 

guild wars 2-There was never a gear gap in this game as you were given max stats and all abilities in instanced pvp. The only difference was there were some runes you couldn't get, but the advantage the runes gave you in pvp was not that much. Skill is what matters in this game and pvp is one of its most liked features. Class balance still a problem though.

 

final fantasy 14-pvp? lololololololololololololololololololololololololololol ... thats a good one.

 

black desert online-its just a ganking game, no instanced pvp. Aside from PKer trolls, I don't know of any serious pvp in this game.

 

blade and soul-It was popular a year ago especially for its pvp (it is still pretty popular but lack of updates hurt). Stats were equalized in instanced arena matches. Stats weren't equalized for world pvp. World pvp was very rare.

 

wild star-also a very popular game 2 years ago. PvP was a huge thing there, but the dungeon/raid bosses were its big thing. One of the issues in pvp was gear (it had A LOT of other issues though, bots being the biggest in low level pvp). People would reach 1800 get the best gear, then tank their rating to obliterate lower rated players. The gear imbalance was one of the reasons why the game died so quickly. And carbine's refusal to make it f2p and merge servers increased that imbalance as more players left. Today after fixing their issues wild star pve population has increased from "dead" to "on life support", pvp population never recovered. Too bad, this is a very good game.

 

Rift-This is definitely not the best example as this game has had very bad pvp balance overall, but long tiresome gear grind, pretty bad balance. Looking at the forums I saw a lot of people do not like it and the overall pvp health of the game shows as there is not a lot of it now nor has there been one for a long time.

 

eve online-no idea how their pvp works. Maybe someone else can fill us in.

 

Tera-Very long pvp gear grind (pretty standard with eastern mmo's). With many different tiers of gear people can be grinding for months and not get much. The PvP health of tera is pretty low atm and the grind is one of the reasons I see on the forums. PvE in tera is amazing though (or so I read). I never touched this one, so if anyone has more info please fill us in.

 

So far the only thing I have been able to establish is that long gear grinds hurts pvp and lots of content helps the overall game. None of the games I looked at does a long gear grind for PvP actually help pvp. At worst it is neutral.

 

Unlike your other posts, this one actually is not just good, but very good. But it establishes the point that some kind of gear grind is good. If you look at WoW, the behemoth, it is roughly a 10% gap. With respect, with bolster going to 242, that's about the same gap.

 

Do you want expertise gear reintroduced and have two sets of gear? My guess is probably not because I'm hoping you are wise enough to understand that absent an incentive for PvE-ers to to participate in PvP, your queues will increase exponentially.

 

Franky, though, your post reinforces not your narrative, but ours. You do understand that we are disagreeing about a few percentage points. Moreover, if PvE-ers do achieve BIS, they will almost certainly switch to an alt, to gear that one up (though, with UC becoming legacy wide at some point, that may change).

 

Dasty

[sithBracer]

Unlike your other posts, this one actually is not just good, but very good. But it establishes the point that some kind of gear grind is good. If you look at WoW, the behemoth, it is roughly a 10% gap. With respect, with bolster going to 242, that's about the same gap.

 

I actually said that 242 is fine. 25% stat difference is imo not fine. And yes I am aware that they are planning on maybe changing it in 5.5. Personally I would like it to be 250, but I am not militant about it. As long as gear does not give too much of an advantage, I am pretty flexible. Maybe then I'll try it out again at 5.5 and see the difference.

 

Do you want expertise gear reintroduced and have two sets of gear? My guess is probably not because I'm hoping you are wise enough to understand that absent an incentive for PvE-ers to to participate in PvP, your queues will increase exponentially.

 

If it is quick to get like in 4.X or like WoW is now, and everyone not geared in expertise gear is bolstered to a decent level, yes that is fine. Currently in WoW, PvP gear is BiS, but gives a relatively minor advantage. That is not exactly what I would like, but it is fine. 4.X had many issues, but pvp gearing was not one of them. In fact IMO, the overall gearing in 4.X was great.

 

Franky, though, your post reinforces not your narrative, but ours. You do understand that we are disagreeing about a few percentage points. Moreover, if PvE-ers do achieve BIS, they will almost certainly switch to an alt, to gear that one up (though, with UC becoming legacy wide at some point, that may change).

 

As I wrote above, I already wrote that I personally am fine with 242. For me as long as the gear advantage is not too high and/or the grind is not too long, it's all good. If I had complete control over the bolster, I would set it to 250, that is my ideal. But it is not an absolute for me to enjoy PvP more.

[olagatonjedi]

Yes everyone can. But as he said this is lame design and usually drives players away. A lot of people do not want to grind static boring PvE content that they already did many times with every update in order to play the more dynamic PvP content. That is the argument, not whether you can or cannot.

 

Also BW has every right to enforce this on their players as it is their game, but it usually drives players elsewhere when a game gives them pointless grinds that have little to nothing to do with the content they are trying to play.

If grinding new gear after each expansion drives players away, those players are likely not a fit for MMORPGS. Grinding to progress your toon is pretty much the bread and butter of MMO's.