What is the optimal stat balance for con-ops?

[Lundorff]

I usually just go Adept (power / crit) with everything, but perhaps that is not optimal? Do some of you mix in some alacrity mayhaps? Some hard numbers for general optimization would be neat Edited July 20, 2017 by Lundorff

[Kirpputori]

No idea about "optimal" but im doing good with ~1900crit and ~1700 alac. Not sure how big is stat pool, but basically i put everything in crit and alac, nothing else

 

but im trash so take that with a grain of salt

Edited July 20, 2017 by Kirpputori

[frosttj]

I usually just go Adept (power / crit) with everything, but perhaps that is not optimal? Do some of you mix in some alacrity mayhaps? Some hard numbers for general optimization would be neat

 

I haven't really kept up with the new caps, if there ever are with 5.0, so I'm not really sure where the diminishing returns start but I've been still operating as if 1800 is soft cap for crit. I get to 1800, and then I start pushing alacrity. My reasoning for this while playing concealment is because you get a few seconds off cooldowns, and just enough off of your global cool down timer that it snugs up the burst windows and doesn't feel as clunky to me. The argument for alacrity on burst specs has always been you don't have the uptime on target like you would pve so it's pointless, but for me personally, snugging up my volatile substance/veiled strike when auto crit/backstab is pretty helpful. Also throwing in the lolreflect if your taking the utility vs a merc who's raring up a tracer missle in the middle of a burst window is easier to do for a damn near global.

[Lundorff]

I haven't really kept up with the new caps, if there ever are with 5.0, so I'm not really sure where the diminishing returns start but I've been still operating as if 1800 is soft cap for crit. I get to 1800, and then I start pushing alacrity. My reasoning for this while playing concealment is because you get a few seconds off cooldowns, and just enough off of your global cool down timer that it snugs up the burst windows and doesn't feel as clunky to me. The argument for alacrity on burst specs has always been you don't have the uptime on target like you would pve so it's pointless, but for me personally, snugging up my volatile substance/veiled strike when auto crit/backstab is pretty helpful. Also throwing in the lolreflect if your taking the utility vs a merc who's raring up a tracer missle in the middle of a burst window is easier to do for a damn near global.

 

Do you still go Adept with implants and ear piece? And then use mods and augments to find the correct balance?

 

My current numbers are:

 

Power: 5239

Crit: 1492

Alacrity: 446

 

Time to lose some power heh.

[Hoppinswtor]

Most of this "uptime" stuff is true but somewhat overblown. If you have 10 percent alacrity, you would see full benefit from the alacrity after 10 GCDs; you're getting an extra GCD at that point, thus making the alacrity pay off. Thanks to defensive cooldowns, even the burstiest of burst specs won't kill a decent player in 10 GCDs or less.

 

Hell, I'd just go with Bant's min-max guide (substituting accuracy for power for sorcs and concealment ops). Seems to work fine.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=918622

 

With all the defensive cooldowns in this game, one could argue that speedy players would fare better than slower, harder hitting ones. Take 'em by surprise and don't give 'em time to react

Edited July 20, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

[frosttj]

Do you still go Adept with implants and ear piece? And then use mods and augments to find the correct balance?

 

My current numbers are:

 

Power: 5239

Crit: 1492

Alacrity: 446

 

Time to lose some power heh.

 

I dont have a specific way to gather my alacrity since command crates are random and all and I have multiple operative/scoundrels on different servers. I typically go with whatever the RNG crates give me, and peice it together from enhancements and augs from my other toons and with UC. But yeah, I'd say your power is way to high, and your lacking a bit in the crit department. Again, alacrity ultimately will come down to your personal preference, but I'd definitely say it's worth a go if you haven't done it before.

 

I wouldn't' expect huge number jumps or anything from switching to a higher alacrity build as an operative. It's a class much more reliant on the player rather than the gear.

[yellow_]

Most of this "uptime" stuff is true but somewhat overblown. If you have 10 percent alacrity, you would see full benefit from the alacrity after 10 GCDs; you're getting an extra GCD at that point, thus making the alacrity pay off. Thanks to defensive cooldowns, even the burstiest of burst specs won't kill a decent player in 10 GCDs or less.

 

Hell, I'd just go with Bant's min-max guide (substituting accuracy for power for sorcs and concealment ops). Seems to work fine.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=918622

 

With all the defensive cooldowns in this game, one could argue that speedy players would fare better than slower, harder hitting ones. Take 'em by surprise and don't give 'em time to react

Before I say anything, I'm going to point out that I don't dislike alacrity. I run a ton of it on some specs (carnage and mm are the biggies). However, I am fairly confident that it is a Dps loss more often than not. But I'm not especially concerned with raw dps when I am playing carnage. I'll take a small dps loss to get my burst windows, choke, and awe up more often.

 

As far as raw dps goes, I disagree that the uptime problem is overblown, especially if you're melee dps but fair enough because there is more to it than that. Not only do you need to maintain uptime, you need to maintain a perfect rotation in order to utilize the CD reduction fully. Realistically a good player playing against other good players will put this partially to use but certainly less efficiently than on a dummy.

 

Anyone who is aware of this, and you certainly are, ought next to look into just how much better is alacrity than mastery or power on a dummy? The math is out there but poorly disseminated, as it requires you to get someone like Bant or his replacement to run the numbers.

 

The answer is that even on a dummy with a perfect rotation is barely better than mastery or power. Less than 3%, usually about 2.5%.

 

I will leave it to anyone aware of this or reading this post to decide for themselves whether or not they think they can actually turn a 2.5% advantage into an advantage in the madness of the pvp moshpit. I personally don't.

 

As such I run alacrity if I think it will help me kill people for a given style (carnage) and don't run it for a style where I am just trying to get kills via overwhelming pressure (hatred).

 

Food for thought. Also, phone posting is cancer.

Edited July 20, 2017 by yellow_

[Foambreaker]

Alacrity starts to diminish ~1000. ~1000 is a ~10% GCD reduction.

 

To me that feels like the sweet spot, less than that I find my self pushing before GCD is up on my mara and my OP.

 

On my casters I like to go up to ~1500 and that is like 13.5%, maybe a bit more.

[Foambreaker]

...

 

As far as raw dps goes, I disagree that the uptime problem is overblown, especially if you're melee dps but fair enough because there is more to it than that. Not only do you need to maintain uptime, you need to maintain a perfect rotation in order to utilize the CD reduction fully. Realistically a good player playing against other good players will put this partially to use but certainly less efficiently than on a dummy.

....

 

For melee I think the opposite, the faster cooldown means I may get in two hits rather than one before having to re-adjust position.

 

In PvP I think it has a utilitarian value that can't be measured on a dummy.

[kissingaiur]

For melee I think the opposite, the faster cooldown means I may get in two hits rather than one before having to re-adjust position.

 

In PvP I think it has a utilitarian value that can't be measured on a dummy.

 

Dummy parsing? Theoretically you will NEVER even get close to amount of uptime you would get on a dummy in a dynamic PvP environment so that would make Alacrity as a DPS gain worse translating from PvE to PvP. You literally just proved his point correct.

Edited July 20, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Hoppinswtor]

Before I say anything, I'm going to point out that I don't dislike alacrity. I run a ton of it on some specs (carnage and mm are the biggies). However, I am fairly confident that it is a Dps loss more often than not. But I'm not especially concerned with raw dps when I am playing carnage. I'll take a small dps loss to get my burst windows, choke, and awe up more often.

 

As far as raw dps goes, I disagree that the uptime problem is overblown, especially if you're melee dps but fair enough because there is more to it than that. Not only do you need to maintain uptime, you need to maintain a perfect rotation in order to utilize the CD reduction fully. Realistically a good player playing against other good players will put this partially to use but certainly less efficiently than on a dummy.

 

Anyone who is aware of this, and you certainly are, ought next to look into just how much better is alacrity than mastery or power on a dummy? The math is out there but poorly disseminated, as it requires you to get someone like Bant or his replacement to run the numbers.

 

The answer is that even on a dummy with a perfect rotation is barely better than mastery or power. Less than 3%, usually about 2.5%.

 

I will leave it to anyone aware of this or reading this post to decide for themselves whether or not they think they can actually turn a 2.5% advantage into an advantage in the madness of the pvp moshpit. I personally don't.

 

As such I run alacrity if I think it will help me kill people for a given style (carnage) and don't run it for a style where I am just trying to get kills via overwhelming pressure (hatred).

 

Food for thought. Also, phone posting is cancer.

 

this is actually well said, and you bring up a good point. As a sorc, for instance, I am constantly tunneled due to the nature of my class (even if my positioning is perfect); I often have to disengage and heal. That's why I tend to run lower alacrity as that spec. When it comes to conc ops, they tend to rely more on "hit and run" tactics, so alacrity may not be as optimal.

[Kurj]

I've been running @ 11% alacrity on my scrapper since reading the other, recent thread on this topic (which contains loads of good info from veteran players of varying viewpoints that was very helpful for my knowledge in general). I'm not likely to set any DPS records regardless of my build, but I like how the extra alacrity feels. I can unload the core of my rotation comparatively faster than someone I'm up against, which seems to fit with the role of a sneaky, somewhat squishy DPS with lots of tricks up his sleeve. I also tell myself that the alacrity gives me an advantage in reaction time, but I realize that I have no meanigful way to measure that. As some have said, at the end of the day it may not really make an objective difference, so I am going with what feels good to me.

[tephlon]

As some have said, at the end of the day it may not really make an objective difference, so I am going with what feels good to me.

This, so much this. I respecced my Shield Specialist VG because it feels as if you attacked once a year. Now I try to keep Alacrity around 10% on all my characters, including Ops/Scoundrel, it does feel way more engaging.

[Lundorff]

I have now changed everything, and my 3 core numbers are now:

 

Power: ~ 4000

Crit: ~1850

Alacrity: ~1500

 

I am doing much, much better with this setup, than my previous power-build. I can almost rival other DPS classes in total amount of damage. Interesting I have also gone full in of the shield probe with utilities, and also added reflect on evasion. That means no healing on countermeasures and no DR/healing from Stim Boost. I think that works fine in normal warzones, as my shield probe is almost always active this way (25 sec CD and with 10 seconds activity), whereas stim boost has a 2 minutes CD.

 

For ranked I suspect Stim Boost is still must.

[frosttj]

I have now changed everything, and my 3 core numbers are now:

 

Power: ~ 4000

Crit: ~1850

Alacrity: ~1500

 

I am doing much, much better with this setup, than my previous power-build. I can almost rival other DPS classes in total amount of damage. Interesting I have also gone full in of the shield probe with utilities, and also added reflect on evasion. That means no healing on countermeasures and no DR/healing from Stim Boost. I think that works fine in normal warzones, as my shield probe is almost always active this way (25 sec CD and with 10 seconds activity), whereas stim boost has a 2 minutes CD.

 

For ranked I suspect Stim Boost is still must.

 

Curative Agent isn't really worth taking in any situation as DPS. I'd even argue it's limited usefulness as heal spec. I prefer taking sever tendon root, the lower CD on evasion, and then revitalizes over the shield probe buff in concealment. Typically, I try to save my revitalizers for a net and combo it with my damage reduction adrenaline. Seems a little less needed as of late, since mercs haven't been nearly as played as they were pre 5.3. But, again...lots of personal preference with the shield probe utilities over revitalizers/tendon root.

 

Reflect on evasion puts operative burst over the top if you line it up right. Absolutely able to melt a merc/pt and skank tanking sins. Works well on the fury/rage maras juggs too, but you only get that big reflect on raging burst usually.

[yellow_]

this is actually well said, and you bring up a good point. As a sorc, for instance, I am constantly tunneled due to the nature of my class (even if my positioning is perfect); I often have to disengage and heal. That's why I tend to run lower alacrity as that spec. When it comes to conc ops, they tend to rely more on "hit and run" tactics, so alacrity may not be as optimal.

I tend to agree about sorc DPS and if I played it much (I don't) I would probably approach gearing it in a similarly to how I do hatred.

 

That being said, I've thought about a couple potential caveats to madness in particular that I find interesting and I think you might as well. The first is that it seems to me alacrity ***may*** be less likely to take a dent in effectiveness in PVP for specs that have large amounts of low to moderate damage filler between their important damaging abilities. If a missed or delayed GCD was just going to be a force lightning (especially if you've got the stacks for demolish already) the impact of this on damage is probably going to be a lot lower than a missed or slow GCD in a spec with a much tighter rotation. I think carnage is likely to get some of this b̶e̶n̶e̶f̶i̶t̶ reduced inefficiency as well (I don't use it for that reason but it's an interesting thought). Also, I suspect the energy regen benefit of alacrity is more useful in madness than many of the specs for which running out of resources requires effort.

 

Even if I'm modeling this stuff correctly I personally doubt it's enough to overcome the issues with alacrity (again, strictly having raw dps in mind). Obviously a lot of hard stuns and other nonsense messing with you will not conveniently happen while you're spamming force lightning between dot applications and death fields. In those cases I think it actually hurts *even more* to be running alacrity because so much of your damage is dependent on a relatively small number of GCDs. Obviously if you get hardstunned at the same time you press your ferocity button your damage has been royally ****ed (and the stat spent on alacrity to get it up sooner for that cycle thoroughly wasted). And of course the LOSing you mentioned that is often necessary just to compete on the class has a big impact as well. But at the end of the day it's impossible to quantify this stuff unfortunately.

 

Regarding concealment I completely agree, way too much time spent rolling and running around, self healing, and other stuff that isn't your actual dps rotation to make alacrity a good stat for raw damage against good players. You'll have the same problem in dueling but I'm not sure raw DPS is especially useful for concealment in a duel...it may be more helpful to just get your volatile + stun combos up more often. You'd need to be on point about using those abilities during that extra window the alacrity created for you though, which is obviously easier said than done. Hard to say.

 

Reflect on evasion puts operative burst over the top if you line it up right. Absolutely able to melt a merc/pt and skank tanking sins. Works well on the fury/rage maras juggs too, but you only get that big reflect on raging burst usually.

I killed myself with a 30-something K raging burst through undying rage (blow for blow damage goes through it) in a solo once this season. Edited July 21, 2017 by yellow_