Sorc Heals 5.3 is terrible

[Qunarin]

The Sorc heals, have gotten hit too hard, this game is basically catering to the PVP community, which isn't bad, you can't blame them for being upset that sorc healing was a little unfair in PVP, HOWEVER this massive nerf wasn't called for, I played several warzones and yes the sorc healer is still perfectly fine in warzones, however.. I mainly run HM and sometimes NiM runs as a sorc healer, and with these numbers i'm pulling, i'll say it plain and clear. Sorcs aren't good in NiM, most lightning users aren't good enough and don't know the glitch, their madness buff was ****, and the healing was thrown into the dirt. Sorc is no longer a class that can be played with end-game content, and don't just believe me, i'm not a regular on a Nim team, however several sorc healers who are in Nim teams are upset over this, and here is why.

 

PVPers whined about sorcs being Op, they were in pvp at least. In Ops, they weren't so OP and Nims were very much so challenging, that's why barely anyone besides Harb guilds run them. SWTOR, the devs NEED to restore sorcs to 5.2 status, undo their buffs. For PVE ONLY. such a thing is not hard to do, and several successful MMOs do have stat caps for PVP. Simply because the level of healing needed for PVP and PVE are completely different, no one player in PVP is dishing out 40K damage per strike in an AOE area. The Devs need to take a page out of other MMO's books and simply make a stat cap for PVP so everything is nice and even at the end game PVP and so PVErs can still use viable classes for NiM, because we all know that 5.0 NO ONE attempts hateful and all these nerfs, are going to keep it that way. Raids will still be challenging and PVP is balanced, and they've already made stat caps, look at the planets, planetary level caps put a level 70 at 12K HP and reduce their damage and healing by a ton on some planets, so Swtor devs have shown they're able to do stat caps. Why they haven't is completely beyond me, but I just want my favorite class Viable for NiMs again.

[Thaladan]

wrong, again.

 

all actual changes in 5.3 are related to global dps and hps (mostly pve so)

 

and :

 

" In future balance patches, the other healers can expect to see changes to their healing capabilities as well to ensure they are in line with the target. "

 

you're the whiner here.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Thaladan

[Jake_Chambers]

Well ofc nerfs come from pvp. Which pver will complain about their class being super good in ops and carrying them? Lol. And sorc heals should put out less healing than others considering how easy they are to play decently

[Toraak]

wrong, again.

 

all actual changes in 5.3 are related to global dps and hps (mostly pve so)

 

and :

 

" In future balance patches, the other healers can expect to see changes to their healing capabilities as well to ensure they are in line with the target. "

 

you're the whiner here.

 

haha. I call BS. All of the classes that got Nerfed hardest, were all the classes people complained about the most for PvP. Sorc heals, mercs, and snipers were the 3 biggest complaints. Yes PvP'ers complained about the DCD's of the mercs, however BW nerfed all 3 for DPS instead. Definitely not PvE nerfs.

[HeBecTyJlKa]

And sorc heals should put out less healing than others considering how easy they are to play decently

I think you are missing Qunarin's point. Yes, maybe they are easier to "play decently", but Sorcs' healing just become nearly impossible to equal (not even mentioning to beat) Mercs' and Operatives' HPS AT HIGH SKILL LEVEL and to feel equally viable in end-game PvE content as the other two healer specs.

 

What we want is a chance to perform decently in HM/NiM Operations - increase cooldowns, swap around some utilities, increase Force cost (as a Sorc healer main, I'm glad that nerf was done, at least now it's more interesting and you have to keep an eye out to not run out of Force) but don't freakin' nerf all of our healing and shielding to the point where it's impossible to overperform, even if you have mastered the class... There are only so many GCDs you have in a fight...

[verfallen]

Well ofc nerfs come from pvp. Which pver will complain about their class being super good in ops and carrying them? Lol. And sorc heals should put out less healing than others considering how easy they are to play decently

 

I don't actually agree with your last point.

 

its fairly easy to play decently a sorc, but mastering one is just has hard as any class.

 

THere are some classes were you either are crap or beast, but balance needs to be accounting for the potential of a class, and not just the difficulty of using it. Mastering that class is its own reward for player that are looking for a challenge, and can say "hey look I'm one of the few that can rock this spec at peak".

 

Other specs like say Marksman, Arsenal or Lightning (altough I see so many people being crap at that one I'm wondering if its that simple, but I find it simple enough at its base) its fairly easy to get 90% of the potential down, but the last 5% are just as much fine tuning as the others.

 

As for PvErs, they actually do complain if their prefered class is not competitive, as they are being asked to re-roll by some ops lead. 5.3 mostly aims to adress their concern actually, even if most of them cry and blame PvP. The only PvP related nerf is sorc heal output, where it was the game mode were it was REALLY overtuned, and in PvE only slightly so.

 

Most the PvP community's complaints are linked not to raw output but to the unbalance between defensives of some classes, some being night on immortal and others barely having any survivability without a heal/tank support.

 

And other than the much needed tweak to DoT-AoE effect on node cap, the snare nerf of Plasma probe, and the slight reduction of arsenal merc's chaff flare defensive capabilities, not much changed for PvPers outside of the death of the domination of the sorc heals.

[Cupcakesforsatan]

I was ok with the Sorc corruption nerfs, for the most part with the exception of Revivifcation. They constantly nerf the **** out of this ability and at this point it's near-useless. A 10% nerf was seriously overkill for an already sub-par ability that was not even 7% of my parse.

[Robocles]

Well ofc nerfs come from pvp. Which pver will complain about their class being super good in ops and carrying them? Lol. And sorc heals should put out less healing than others considering how easy they are to play decently

 

Do you play one end game?

 

I play all 3 healers in various aspects... none are harder or easier.

 

So... **** unless you have something constructive to say.

[sumquy]

So... **** unless you have something constructive to say.

 

lol. the vast majority of them don't have anything constructive to say. for 5 years, since launch, bioware kept sorcs a level above the other classes. every fotm reroller ended up here. every bad looking for an advantage over other players ended up here. now that that is being taken away it's become the biggest pity party in swtor history. one giant non-stop whine fest. you can try to use facts to point out to them that sorc was overperforming. you can talk about how it was by far the preferred healer in both pve and pvp. you can link to starparse and show that more than half the operations healers are sorcs and the operations parses that show them outperforming the other two. none of it matters, because they don't want to hear it. they want their op back and are determined to *****, and moan, and cry about it until bw gives them what they demand. the good news is that bw seems to understand that they are full of ****.

[realleaftea]

I think you are missing Qunarin's point. Yes, maybe they are easier to "play decently", but Sorcs' healing just become nearly impossible to equal (not even mentioning to beat) Mercs' and Operatives' HPS AT HIGH SKILL LEVEL and to feel equally viable in end-game PvE content as the other two healer specs.

 

What we want is a chance to perform decently in HM/NiM Operations - increase cooldowns, swap around some utilities, increase Force cost (as a Sorc healer main, I'm glad that nerf was done, at least now it's more interesting and you have to keep an eye out to not run out of Force) but don't freakin' nerf all of our healing and shielding to the point where it's impossible to overperform, even if you have mastered the class... There are only so many GCDs you have in a fight...

As I've said multiple times now. Just because Force Armor / Static Barrier cast on different players won't boost your HPS score in StarParse doesn't mean BioWare should only care about this third party program.

 

Maybe it would be a smart move from BioWare, if they would alter the log file entries to include the Force Armor / Static Barrier results as well, but I hardly doubt that they're willing to spend a single cent on that. I even believe Keith, Eric & co. are mainly responsible for the last class balance, not some full-time developers.

Edited July 12, 2017 by realleaftea

[shyroman]

lol. the vast majority of them don't have anything constructive to say. for 5 years, since launch, bioware kept sorcs a level above the other classes. every fotm reroller ended up here. every bad looking for an advantage over other players ended up here. now that that is being taken away it's become the biggest pity party in swtor history. one giant non-stop whine fest. you can try to use facts to point out to them that sorc was overperforming. you can talk about how it was by far the preferred healer in both pve and pvp. you can link to starparse and show that more than half the operations healers are sorcs and the operations parses that show them outperforming the other two. none of it matters, because they don't want to hear it. they want their op back and are determined to *****, and moan, and cry about it until bw gives them what they demand. the good news is that bw seems to understand that they are full of ****.

 

Sorc healers haven't been the top healer for the entirety of the game, there were even long periods of time when they were at the bottom. Yes they were op now and deserved a nerf (although not quite as severe as they got), but exaggerating only weakens your argument.

[HeBecTyJlKa]

As I've said multiple times now. Just because Force Armor / Static Barrier cast on different players won't boost your HPS score in StarParse doesn't mean BioWare should only care about this third party program.

 

Maybe it would be a smart move from BioWare, if they would alter the log file entries to include the Force Armor / Static Barrier results as well, but I hardly doubt that they're willing to spend a single cent on that. I even believe Keith, Eric & co. are mainly responsible for the last class balance, not some full-time developers.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm really confused - where did I mention StarParse? Or do you simply believe that Ixale invented HPS as a term when he built it? Or maybe BioWare? Did you at least read Eric's explanation as to WHY the nerf is happening from their perspective (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=925537) before writing your reply? Please, elaborate!

[sumquy]

Sorc healers haven't been the top healer for the entirety of the game, there were even long periods of time when they were at the bottom. Yes they were op now and deserved a nerf (although not quite as severe as they got), but exaggerating only weakens your argument.

 

what game are you playing? sorcs have always been the preferred healer for high level operations. what patch era are you claiming they were worst? because to my memory there has never been such a time. as to the nerf they got, it is too soon to know where this will put them, given their utility, they may still be tops.

Edited July 12, 2017 by sumquy

[Twelfthnight]

Sorcs were not always the preferred healer. I'm not sure what patch it was but it was around season 1 and when NiM Dread Fortress and Dread Palace came out. Ops and mercs were the preferred healers during those times.

[shyroman]

what game are you playing? sorcs have always been the preferred healer for high level operations. what patch era are you claiming they were worst? because to my memory there has never been such a time. as to the nerf they got, it is too soon to know where this will put them, given their utility, they may still be tops.

 

2.0 they were at the bottom, even in 3.0 they were 2nd to mercs (in pve). I can't recall 1.0 enough since it was so long ago but the only reason why they were ever wanted in pvp was because of bubble stun which meant they weren't even in full heal spec. 2.0 was a bit over 1.5 years long and 3.0 lasted almost a year. So about half the game they definitely weren't the best healer while at other points mercs were still up there in hps they could do (even now, it's just that sorcs are easier).

[sumquy]

2.0 they were at the bottom, even in 3.0 they were 2nd to mercs (in pve). I can't recall 1.0 enough since it was so long ago but the only reason why they were ever wanted in pvp was because of bubble stun which meant they weren't even in full heal spec. 2.0 was a bit over 1.5 years long and 3.0 lasted almost a year. So about half the game they definitely weren't the best healer while at other points mercs were still up there in hps they could do (even now, it's just that sorcs are easier).

 

i know for a fact that you are at least half wrong because in 2.0 my merc healer was still my main. we had better burst healing than sorcs, but when 2.2 dropped nim tfb and snv, we were not even viable for them because we could not sustain the heals necessary without overheating. the forums were full of complaints about it, and arguments over whether or not the armor and 10% kolto missile heal buffs we had were sufficient compensation for our much lower healing numbers.

[shyroman]

i know for a fact that you are at least half wrong because in 2.0 my merc healer was still my main. we had better burst healing than sorcs, but when 2.2 dropped nim tfb and snv, we were not even viable for them because we could not sustain the heals necessary without overheating. the forums were full of complaints about it, and arguments over whether or not the armor and 10% kolto missile heal buffs we had were sufficient compensation for our much lower healing numbers.

 

Not even viable? Wut? World firsts for terror nim and styrak nim had mercs. Sorry but I'm not going to believe you about these things when you throw out claims like that.

Edited July 12, 2017 by shyroman

[sumquy]

Not even viable? Wut? World firsts for terror nim and styrak nim had mercs. Sorry but I'm not going to believe about these things when you throw out claims like that.

 

that is a particularly bad example because drop it like it's hoth, who got the world first dread guard, specifically switched from a merc to a sorc (without heal set bonus) to get that kill. to get the tfb kill death and taxes did dg on hm so they could skip and move on. maybe viable wasn't the best word to use there since the best players in game were able make do, but they were still not as good as sorcs. in the end believe whatever you want.

[RagnarAugustus]

lol. the vast majority of them don't have anything constructive to say. for 5 years, since launch, bioware kept sorcs a level above the other classes. {QUOTE]

 

This is pure malarky. Sorcs have not been kept above other classes, sorcs have been hit time and again massive nerfs to DPS, healing ability effectiveness, force consumption, duration of our AOE (both heals and DPS force storm) and this last nerf is just insane. Just because good sorc healers can adapt doesn't mean that we haven't been through the wringer time and again and most of the time due to PVP complaints making operations groups suffer. I too heal on all three classes and if any healer needed an adjustment it was Operatives needing a buff for their lack of a consistent burst heal. Sorcs\sages were fine in PVE. This needs to stop by BW finding a way to balance PVE and PVP completely separately.

[RagnarAugustus]

what game are you playing? sorcs have always been the preferred healer for high level operations. what patch era are you claiming they were worst? because to my memory there has never been such a time. as to the nerf they got, it is too soon to know where this will put them, given their utility, they may still be tops.

 

I've been an operations sorc healer main (also Merc and Operative heals too on alts) since 2.0 and there was the huge 4.0 nerf where many operations sorc healers that I know outright stopped playing the class in raids so there have been big nerfs of this caliber before and in recent memory. Sorcs are versatile which is why they have been at times a go to class for operations. Right now Mercs are just as much a go to healer as sorcs are in Operations. Heck when I run Pub sidegroup finder ops outside of guild runs I run into Commando healers more than Sages on Harbinger.

[sumquy]

This is pure malarky. Sorcs have not been kept above other classes, sorcs have been hit time and again massive nerfs to DPS, healing ability effectiveness, force consumption, duration of our AOE (both heals and DPS force storm) and this last nerf is just insane. Just because good sorc healers can adapt doesn't mean that we haven't been through the wringer time and again and most of the time due to PVP complaints making operations groups suffer. I too heal on all three classes and if any healer needed an adjustment it was Operatives needing a buff for their lack of a consistent burst heal. Sorcs\sages were fine in PVE. This needs to stop by BW finding a way to balance PVE and PVP completely separately.

 

one step forward, two steps back. get a nerf, get a god bubble. get another nerf, have a phase walk. it's telling itself that after every expansion, we need another sorc nerf come version X.3. also, i do not understand why you consider these pvp nerfs. if you are talking about total heals, then by definition, you are talking about pve where that can be accurately measured and gauged. not very many pvp'ers were complaining about sorc heals output. most of the complaints from pvp are about mobility and the impossibility of pinning one place long enough to kill them.

 

I've been an operations sorc healer main (also Merc and Operative heals too on alts) since 2.0 and there was the huge 4.0 nerf where many operations sorc healers that I know outright stopped playing the class in raids so there have been big nerfs of this caliber before and in recent memory. Sorcs are versatile which is why they have been at times a go to class for operations. Right now Mercs are just as much a go to healer as sorcs are in Operations. Heck when I run Pub sidegroup finder ops outside of guild runs I run into Commando healers more than Sages on Harbinger.

 

stats don't lie and players aren't stupid. they instinctively migrate to the most effective classes. your personal experience aside, sorc/sage healers make up more than half of all healers in every operation.

Edited July 13, 2017 by sumquy

[HeBecTyJlKa]

True, stats don't lie and these are from before the nerfs... Give it a few weeks to see the dip

 

And this is not even NiM lol

[realleaftea]

I'm sorry, but I'm really confused - where did I mention StarParse? Or do you simply believe that Ixale invented HPS as a term when he built it? Or maybe BioWare? Did you at least read Eric's explanation as to WHY the nerf is happening from their perspective (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=925537) before writing your reply? Please, elaborate!

You mentioned HPS values. Due to the fact that Static Barrier is not a heal, it might not be included in the final HPS score ... like the ones you see on StarParse. But in order to compare the effectiveness of Sorcerers to other healers - especially in regard of the HM/NIM operations you've mentioned, you have to calculate it in.

 

I focused my response not in direct response to the words you've chosen in your reply - and it's kind of presumptuous to assume that - but rather on your reply as a whole. And since you're so demanding in regard of my response, let me tell you that statements like "but Sorcs' healing just become nearly impossible to equal Mercs' and Operatives' HPS" are completely useless if you cannot prove your claim. So feel free to provide a reliable prove of your statement without referring to StarParse!

 

Because as it seems, BioWare's metric told them that Sorcerers were better than the other two healing specs, which then leads to this statement: The rest of the changes for Corruption Sorcerers / Seer Sages all have one singular goal: wrangling their HPS down to the healing target while maintaining the Corruption / Seer playstyle with which players have become familiar.

 

So both your statement about "nearly impossible" as well as this statement: "And sorc heals should put out less healing than others considering how easy they are to play decently" seem to be unfounded.

 

But wait, guess what: You use StarParse to prove your claim.

True, stats don't lie and these are from before the nerfs... Give it a few weeks to see the dip

 

Knowing that these numbers - as I've stated - don't include any damage absorption.

Edited July 12, 2017 by realleaftea

[HeBecTyJlKa]

@realleaftea First off, thank you for putting my words into weird context

 

I personally never said that I can prove anything without StarParse - that would be a stupid claim since I don't have access to SWTOR's databases, where (I assume) they are getting their data from. The only thing that players have access to, which is the closest to valid data, is the StarParse raking system. I personally hope that BioWare would maybe keep their word to be more proactive in the communication with us by getting us some insights on what they see on the backend after the patch was applied, then you will see the reality... However it will be at least a couple of months until that moment (if they do that) so that they can show some solid data.

 

In the mean time, I will be collecting data and will show it to you as soon as I have it, I just need to do a few more HM and NiM runs with Op/Merc as the other healer in the group (so far, I've been lagging behind when calculating HPS + APS cumulatively to an Operative with slightly worse gear than mine and about the same skill level as mine). And this is just on 8M, I don't even want to enter a 16M OP with the current awful state of AOE healing we have.

 

Second, I was truly confused by your claim that "BioWare should only care about this third party program", since that makes no sense at all... StarParse uses the Combat Logs from the game itself, which I am pretty sure BioWare utilize for their tests as well, so long story short: they are using the very same data which comes from the game itself, not from the 3rd party software.

 

Also, where did you read that BioWare included APS in their testing (Eric just mentions "HPS target"), as well as that Ixparse's page doesn't include APS in the Healing Ranking (might be a valid assumption, it does show "EHPS" if you hover your mouse, but I'd still like to see a confirmation)? Maybe this is where I am being wrong, as I don't see any proof for each one of these statements.

 

P.S. I also didn't say "Sorc heals should put out less healing than others considering how easy they are to play decently", I just quoted the guy who did, which I assume is what made you confuse me with him.

Edited July 12, 2017 by HeBecTyJlKa

[Severith]

The Sorc heals, have gotten hit too hard, this game is basically catering to the PVP community.

 

Except all of the nerfs in 5.3, the only class adjustments for the last 7 months, are based on the heals per second / damage per second goals of the dev team. Simple number adjustments like that are PVE based, not PVP.

 

Sorcs had unlimited resources, and compared to the other two healing specs, was incredibly easy to play even in end game ops. Now you have to manage your resources like any other class.

 

The title of this thread should be "Some Sorc Healers are terrible in 5.3." Some Sorc healers were terrible before that, but the class was such a big crutch no one noticed. Well, now you're noticing.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Severith