Death of the Lightning Sorc

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Ah battle rez, so usefull in PVP.

 

Totally useless, but PVP isn't the only part of the game.

 

Battle Rez matters a lot in PVE and like it or not what you do to class in one area of the game effects all the other areas of the game. You can't go about class balancing without considering it's effects on both PVE and PVP even if you may personally only care about one or the other. If it isn't fair to both, it's pointless to even bother trying.

[mmmbuddah]

The title says it all...

 

The methods described in the balance thread from Bio show that Lightning will always be one of those bottom feeder classes. The fact that they've even discounted putting it in the current balance round shows just how little they care about it. As the lowest performing class in both pvp and pve, it should have been at the top of the buff list.

 

With most other classes looking like they'll get buffs and the nerfs to others will be minimal because they are based on dps and not defences, Lightning Sorcs will be the joke of the pvp WZs.

"Look, a Lightning Sorc, lMAO, what an idiot, why would you bring one into pvp... quick kill them and show them why you don't"

 

FOR GODS SAKE! IT IS NOT THE LOWEST PERFORMING SPEC! Plasmatech / Pyro are the Kings / Queens of underperformance and have been for over 2 years now! At least lightning / tele has good self healing. Ffs. People.

[ViktorAres]

FOR GODS SAKE! IT IS NOT THE LOWEST PERFORMING SPEC! Plasmatech / Pyro are the Kings / Queens of underperformance and have been for over 2 years now! At least lightning / tele has good self healing. Ffs. People.

 

Based on single target DPS alone, Lightning Sorc is below Pyro PT. https://torcommunity.com/guides/miscellaneous/class-rankings

[Thaladan]

of course it's a little better in dps...it's a dot spec..

 

But we're in teh PvP section and pyrotech/plasmatech is by far the worst spec in dps and survivability.

 

lightning is clealry viable and can be really good in a team in term of dps.

 

of course this will change i hope in 5.3 because pyro is in the spec to buff and not lightning, but it's necessary for "Melee Sustained Damage Dealers (up to +5% of target DPS)" according to bioware.

 

but i am sure that lightning will have a buff OR all other spec in the same category will going to be nerfed (like arsenal mercs)

 

And for survivabilty srly? saying sorcs are weak in this aspect is wrong.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Thaladan

[Ottoattack]

I swear to all that is good that there is only 10 people in this entire game who can read more than a paragraph.

 

They said those were their TARGETS for people to be performing at. If people aren't performing or over-performing for their target numbers, they'll be being adjusted. For instance, Mercenary is FAR over-performing its' category and will be being nerfed. Sorceror lightning (in my opinion) is also obviously under performing in overall PvP and needs to be brought up but for now (in 5.3), they've decided to focus on the specs that are the most over-performing and under performing specs and work on fixing them closer to their target stats so its not so overwhelmingly bad.

 

Bioware's explanation of how they do balancing was clear and made sense. I could agree with not agreeing with how they do it, not accounting for certain things and especially how long it takes them to make changes but this thread was created just because you read the chart and immediately went on a full fledged rant about how arsenal mercs and lightning sorcs are supposed to be the same tier but yet they obviously are not. WHICH BIOWARE STATES IN THEIR POST IS WHY MERCS ARE GETTING NERFED.

 

But because none of you passed reading comprehension in English back in 12th grade, I can understand how this could be frustrating.

 

I read the post thoroughly. BW never used any reference point, just some hypothetical theories of "target dps". They lumped sorc, MM and arsenal in one category with complete disregard to survivability, mobility or utility. This group is supposedly 5% below target dps (which is still unknown). Yet if we use top parsers as reference point (which should be 5% above), lighting and MM are 10% below target dps (15% spread).

 

I presume BW is using lightning as the reference point, since arsenal dps is nerfed to be around the same level. If that is the case, that means every single dps spec with the exception of Hatred, veng and AP, is going to get a dps nerf. I find that to be unbelievable, and dumb considering that TTK, as balance currently stand, is way too long. And again, no mention of survivability, mobility or utility, which are much more relevant in PvP than 5-10% dps output.

 

It is not that we did not "read" or "understand." We did. We understand very well that BW devs are incompetent, arrogant and lazy. Been the case for years now. Nothing has changed and nothing well, unless vast majority of devs are.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Ottoattack

[mmmbuddah]

Ah battle rez, so usefull in PVP.

 

Actually you can use it in warzones. It always makes people look twice when I use it xD.

[mike_carton]

BW never used any reference point, just some hypothetical theories of "target dps".

...

I presume BW is using lightning as the reference point, since arsenal dps is nerfed to be around the same level. If that is the case, that means every single dps spec with the exception of Hatred, veng and AP, is going to get a dps nerf.

...

It is not that we did not "read" or "understand." We did.

 

Those who are supporting the changes or believe that the posters opposing the changes are uninformed should read the quoted part a few times and consider the implications.

 

Even in PvE, once the above described near-across-the-board DPS nerf goes through, players and groups will have difficulty doing some of the content they can now clear. A lot of PvE content will take longer to complete for many players and groups even when they're able to clear it. This includes the leveling activities as well; every single fight starting from level 1 will likely take longer for many Disciplines. This represents a widespread decrease in quality of the gaming experience for a significant portion of the players.

 

There is little to recommend this approach.

 

Equivalent balancing results can be obtained by buffing DPS Disciplines to be close to each other, splitting up some skills between PvP and PvE, and tackling Combat Proficiencies at the same time. That'd produce better outcomes overall.

Edited June 19, 2017 by mike_carton

[Icykill_]

the Death of Lightning Sorc...edited first post Edited June 23, 2017 by Icykill_

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

They went to far with Merc DPS, they went too far with corruption sorcs, they went too far with DPS sorc self heals.

 

And you know what? They're going to go too far on every class they touch. It might not by your class this time around, but it will be next time or the time after that. I think they are going to touch every single class and spec in the game and I think we're all going to be very unhappy when this "class balance" is all done. I have no faith in this. Not one ounce.

 

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. "

 

- Martin Niemöller

[merovejec]

And you know what? They're going to go too far on every class they touch.

 

Heh AND WHAT DID YOU EXPECT??

 

This is the typical PVP whining which makes it all go down the drain. Now PVE will be way off balance, will be hard to do bosses and NiMs, they will nerf damage and heals, tanks are fine the way they are. This will change nothing, just make the game encounters more annoying.

 

I have nothing against nerfing a class or spec which is overperforming, but for the past months I kept on saying that the class balance is fine! Some performed better, some worse, but ppl still parse well on Lightning Sorc for example! But remember this is where PVP whining gets us to!

[Bobby_McDonald]

They went to far with Merc DPS, they went too far with corruption sorcs, they went too far with DPS sorc self heals.

 

And you know what? They're going to go too far on every class they touch. It might not by your class this time around, but it will be next time or the time after that. I think they are going to touch every single class and spec in the game and I think we're all going to be very unhappy when this "class balance" is all done. I have no faith in this. Not one ounce.

 

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. "

 

- Martin Niemöller

 

They will go too far with merc dps and sorc hps but all of us are telling them.

 

They mostly ignore our feedback about unbalanced utilities, mobility, dcds and slows because its too difficult to tackle it.

 

Instead they go the easy way by just putting everything in a spreadsheet like Bant did and then let it calculate the % nerfs and buffs to reach a given dummy-dps / hps.

 

And thats what our complaints, or "whining" was actually about. No pvp-addicts complaint about mercs dps or sorcs hps. It was their survivabilty in comparison to other classes like PT dps or oper heal that we wanted to be nerfed (I would have been fine if they would have buffed all other classes to the same level though, I just dont want to have major disadvantages with specific classes in pvp, especially ranked).

 

Going for the pvp-communities complaints about dcds, mobility, slows and utilities would require hours of testing in actual warzones and multiple testers who know their classes in and out. You cannot calculate how slows, mobility and stunbreaks influence efficiency and survivability of a class.

 

For the spreadsheet for calculating nerfs and buffs to dps and hps you only need one developer.

 

So actual classbalance cost manpower and money, they dont want to spend on class balance. But there is no measureable output of classbalance. The only way we can make them measure it is to quit subbing and tell them we do it for lack of class balance.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Bobby_McDonald

[Yezzan]

Well, this is what happens when people whine too kiffing much.

 

The idea that Seer and Corruption are over-performing is to suggest that they are doing more HPS than Medicine and Bodyguard. This is not true in the case of Medicine Operatives. Bioware can spin whatever nonsense they want but they are making these changes because the same incompetent players flood the forums with their BS.

 

Sorcerers were doing more DPS than what was intended for the class? When and where?

So, you are reducing their damage, reducing their healing and reducing their defense (singular).... what exactly are people supposed to do with this class?

 

Bioware we are sick and tried of your foolishness.

 

The problem with Mercs that their DCD's make then too tanky, whether they were performing outside the target DPS ranged is not what people are concerned about. The pressing issue is DCD, but you are out here nerfing DPS like that is gonna fix anything.

 

Healing is over-tuned which means there is a problem with your target HPS. You needed to re-calibrate your target HPS then adjust the healing specs to meet the revised target. This cannot happen in a vacuum. You have to also, adjust MM FPs and OPS to meet this new HPS target.

 

You guys are just going around nerfing stuff while ignoring the relevant variables. What is the justification for nerfing Sorc HPS? Are you saying that Medicine Operatives and Bodyguards are performing within the target HPS but Corruption is over-performing?

[Exocor]

The problem with buffing Lightning-Sorc is the bug making Chain Lightning instant. When they buff the dps of lightning sorcs, they will be competible with the high-dps class + there advantages in movement and range. Currently, with the bug, the dps are on the same level with arsenal merc (pre nerf).

 

I don't now, how this does effect pvp, but from my perspective, Lightning Sorc was dead since launch of 4.0. Did I miss any resurrection?

[merovejec]

Its actually very funny, so now we have those PVPers who were whining for Nerfs who say they will stop playing cause nerfs are too stupid!!

 

GG People!!

 

So what you have done is forced Bioware to make nerfs (which they messed up as expected) and now you will leave the game, stop playing and well just be stuck with the nerfs you caused!!

 

THANK YOU!

[ViktorAres]

With the nerf to our healing and Static Barrier, and with no Lightning/TK changes announced in 5.3, the Devs put a final nail on the coffin of the Lightning Sorc.

[Lionflash]

https://tor.community/m9okfm

 

As long as you aren't sitting in a corner not casting you should have 30% or so dmg reduction with lightning sorc.

 

Unnatural Preservation > Expunge

 

Static Barrier > Cloud Mind

 

Force Speed > Force Barrier > Enduring Bastion > Force Speed > Resurgence

 

Phase Walk > Expunge > Resurgence > Dark Heal > Dark Heal > Dark Heal > Dark Heal

 

Lightning has 4 or so dcds while having force slow, electrocute, whirlwind, overload and healing.

 

 

Lightning Flash > Crushing Darkness > Affliction > Thundering Blast > Polarity Shift > Chain Lightning > Force Speed > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Flash > Thundering Blast > Chain Lightning > Crushing Darkness > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt >

[Icykill_]

They went to far with Merc DPS, they went too far with corruption sorcs, they went too far with DPS sorc self heals.

 

And you know what? They're going to go too far on every class they touch. It might not by your class this time around, but it will be next time or the time after that. I think they are going to touch every single class and spec in the game and I think we're all going to be very unhappy when this "class balance" is all done. I have no faith in this. Not one ounce.

 

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. "

 

- Martin Niemöller

 

Seriously, I've given it 12 hours to think about it and my finger is still figuratively hovering over the unsub click... any good will Keith has built up with me was wiped away in one foul swoop.

Im sick of waiting for these guys to actually listen.. the honey moon is over with these guys.. I stuck it out.. and even though they left Lightning off the 5.3 announcement a few weeks ago, I thought I'd still stick it out after all the communication they seemed to be having... just one last chance 🙄

But you have to draw the line somewhere... if I don't hear anything back by the end of next week that these changes are at least being looked at and reconsidered, then I'm going to go preferred and play two classes that aren't nerfed into the crapper... there is no point in paying for 89 toons when I'll only be able to use two of the ones I like playing.

I know missing out on my $15 a month won't mean much to them, but it will make me feel better knowing I'm not paying to destroy the game I love.

[Icykill_]

https://tor.community/m9okfm

 

As long as you aren't sitting in a corner not casting you should have 30% or so dmg reduction with lightning sorc.

 

Unnatural Preservation > Expunge

 

Static Barrier > Cloud Mind

 

Force Speed > Force Barrier > Enduring Bastion > Force Speed > Resurgence

 

Phase Walk > Expunge > Resurgence > Dark Heal > Dark Heal > Dark Heal > Dark Heal

 

Lightning has 4 or so dcds while having force slow, electrocute, whirlwind, overload and healing.

 

 

Lightning Flash > Crushing Darkness > Affliction > Thundering Blast > Polarity Shift > Chain Lightning > Force Speed > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Flash > Thundering Blast > Chain Lightning > Crushing Darkness > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt >

 

That was before he nerf... have a read of the nerf to the class that they are doing to mainly lower the healing spec Sorc.. you will see they are basically destroying Lightning Sorc survival

[stoopicus]

Seriously, I've given it 12 hours to think about it and my finger is still figuratively hovering over the unsub click... any good will Keith has built up with me was wiped away in one foul swoop.

Im sick of waiting for these guys to actually listen.. the honey moon is over with these guys.. I stuck it out.. and even though they left Lightning off the 5.3 announcement a few weeks ago, I thought I'd still stick it out after all the communication they seemed to be having... just one last chance 🙄

But you have to draw the line somewhere... if I don't hear anything back by the end of next week that these changes are at least being looked at and reconsidered, then I'm going to go preferred and play two classes that aren't nerfed into the crapper... there is no point in paying for 89 toons when I'll only be able to use two of the ones I like playing.

I know missing out on my $15 a month won't mean much to them, but it will make me feel better knowing I'm not paying to destroy the game I love.

 

I hear you, honestly just take a break, TMOT, feelsgood. This train wreck will still be going on when you want to come back.

[Icykill_]

I hear you, honestly just take a break, TMOT, feelsgood. This train wreck will still be going on when you want to come back.

 

I might have broken my addiction by then lol... if that happens I'll never be back because I'll have a new addiction somewhere else

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I posted this in the Sorc forum, thought I'd share it here too given the subject.

 

--------------

 

If any DPS spec in the game should have strong self heals it should be Sorcs. I'm not a big fan of DPS with strong self-heals, but in the case of Sorcs it makes a great deal more sense given their strong connection to the force. Far from nerfing them, they should have increased their self-heals.

 

 

Ohh yeah, where is it written that only Snipers should have 35' attack range among rDPS? Give Lighting 35' range [although not the DOTs, but the straight up attacks]. The only range limitation lightning strikes in real life have is the ground! Given the level of their DPS, that would at least give them some edge and probably in and of itself be something of a DPS buff. [5' more can give them targets they couldn't otherwise reach at range. ] A lot easier to kite when you are out of gap closer range. If the DPS was high I wouldn't advocate it, but, otherwise at their projected DPS values, I don't think it would be too much. Give them some edge at least.

 

 

*** I can see it now....a month from now I'll be getting my stupid Marauder *** lite up from Lightning strike, and won't be able to leap to the caster and I'll be kicking myself in the *** for suggesting it =p

[mike_carton]

I pulled my characters from two of my guild's Ops teams (1 Imp, 1 Pub) last week. Now I'm taking a week off from playing SWTOR to see if I can do it, to see if it'll kill me. Edited June 24, 2017 by mike_carton

[stoopicus]

I pulled my characters from two of my guild's Ops teams (1 Imp, 1 Pub) last week. Now I'm taking a week off from playing SWTOR to see if I can do it, to see if it'll kill me.

 

Legion is great. Just saying

[DocGamer]

Legion is great. Just saying

 

Yeah, they really backed Sorcs into a corner here. Lighting is poop, and now the nerf bat has smacked healers. You win Bioware... *Waves white flag* Let me take my 1,500 pennies a month somewhere else

[mike_carton]

Legion is great. Just saying

 

Will try that. I had started with "Best MMOs of 2017" kind of Internet searches.