Death of the Lightning Sorc

[Icykill_]

The title says it all...

 

The methods described in the balance thread from Bio show that Lightning will always be one of those bottom feeder classes. The fact that they've even discounted putting it in the current balance round shows just how little they care about it. As the lowest performing class in both pvp and pve, it should have been at the top of the buff list.

 

With most other classes looking like they'll get buffs and the nerfs to others will be minimal because they are based on dps and not defences, Lightning Sorcs will be the joke of the pvp WZs.

"Look, a Lightning Sorc, lMAO, what an idiot, why would you bring one into pvp... quick kill them and show them why you don't"

 

edit

 

I called it... the death of the Lightning Sorc... these latest changes to the whole of the classes healing abilities will make lightning unplayable

 

Hey folks,

 

Below you will find the upcoming changes for Corruption and Seer Disciplines coming in 5.3. YOU MISSED THE PART WHERE YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID WE ARE NERFING THE WHOLE CLASS

 

Sorcerer

Reduced the amount of healing done by Dark Heal by 4.86%

Increased the base Force cost of Resurgence from 40 to 50 and the amount of healing done by its initial heal by 10.59%, but reduced the amount of healing done by its heal-over-time by 14.29%

Reduced the amount of damage absorbed by Static Barrier by 5.3%

 

 

The only saving grace that has still allowed me to play it, was the survivability I had on it.

 

Those changes SHOULD NOT BE MADE TO THE CLASS... if you want to nerf healing spec, then nerf healing... DONT THROW THE OTHER SPECS UNDER THE BUS TOO...

 

Everytime you nerf Sorc, you nerf the whole class. Can't you just nerf a Spec? You have already destroyed the class to the bottom.

 

But you said you wanted a why and what would happen, so here you go -

When a lightning Sorc enters pvp they will be targeted first and destroyed... period... we will not have any ability to survive anymore. That's it... it's simple..

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by Icykill_

[RevorteX]

Yes,I feel your disappointment,I am disappointed as well,lightning sorc being my main character. I didn't get my hopes up for a big buff,but only for THE small changes it needs to be a competitive classs and still even no small changes are going to be made. It seems it will die out and people will stop choosing it at all at some point. I think the problems are pretty obvious at this discipline - damage is funny; survavibility is funny. No matter how skilled you are,if you are caught 1vs1 you just die. I think that this is the major complain of all players.

[merovejec]

Yeah Lightning Sorcs die, really fast when focused

[frosttj]

Lightning spec has always been a spec they just could never really nail down. It was either vastly unreliable or vastly over powered. There was a small window where it was good damage wise, but sorc defensives compared to everyone else put it over the top.

[Lotsanerv]

Lightning spec has always been a spec they just could never really nail down. It was either vastly unreliable or vastly over powered. There was a small window where it was good damage wise, but sorc defensives compared to everyone else put it over the top.

 

They've never had OP single target dps, yet, that's what BW nerfed. It was the crazy AOE spam/slow with the 25% increase utility. Pop recklessness, polarity shift and unlimited power and crit mobs to an oblivion while getting a proc to chain lightning. Any groups that stood together were melted while moving like slugs. Still, they were never that great in ranked. In Operations, tk/lightning were only awesome in certain fights, but for a lot of bosses, the pushback on the casts made their output awful. Despite that, they got the nerf bat treatment because of all the crying. I'm still pissed that my sage, who I mained from the second year of the game, sits around to do nothing but crafting because he does nothing but fluff damage in PvP. I can only 1v1 bads and other sages and sorcs.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Lotsanerv

[ViktorAres]

In the balance thread, Musco says Lightning Sorc is supposed to have the same DPS as an arsenal merc. Clearly they have a lot of work to do to make it happen.

 

Furthermore, they've acknowledged that Madness/Balance is underperforming, while we know Madness has a higher single-target dps than Lightning.

 

My guess is they chose Madness to be rebalanced first because more people are playing it.

Edited June 16, 2017 by ViktorAres

[Belpheghor]

The title says it all...

 

The methods described in the balance thread from Bio show that Lightning will always be one of those bottom feeder classes. The fact that they've even discounted putting it in the current balance round shows just how little they care about it. As the lowest performing class in both pvp and pve, it should have been at the top of the buff list.

 

With most other classes looking like they'll get buffs and the nerfs to others will be minimal because they are based on dps and not defences, Lightning Sorcs will be the joke of the pvp WZs.

"Look, a Lightning Sorc, lMAO, what an idiot, why would you bring one into pvp... quick kill them and show them why you don't"

 

In regs Lightning and Madness are both fine. I rarely die, but you have to be willing to hit n' run. Carefully choose your phase walk point for escapes when you get pounced. Take the utility for instant whirlwind to help keep toons off your back, etc.

 

I really enjoy both Sorc specs, try to think of Sorc as a dps support class. If you're trying to be a straight up duelist or play ranked, you're in for a world of pain. But if you think of both specs as dps support specs and stick with your team and dink and dunk, hit n' run, both specs are quite rewarding.

 

I do get Operatives and sometimes other classes that try to tunnel me and chase me all around the map, but staying alive through the chase is half the fun, especially when they can't nail you down and kill you and rage in chat about you lol.

 

Sorcs are still good at kiting if you know your stuff and have enough self heals to keep up unless you're horribly undergeared.

 

You wanna one on one play a Sin, Op, Mara, etc. They should buff both specs dps a little though so you CAN one on one if forced, because as is both specs are a LOT of work to duel with.

[JargoFett]

I swear to all that is good that there is only 10 people in this entire game who can read more than a paragraph.

 

They said those were their TARGETS for people to be performing at. If people aren't performing or over-performing for their target numbers, they'll be being adjusted. For instance, Mercenary is FAR over-performing its' category and will be being nerfed. Sorceror lightning (in my opinion) is also obviously under performing in overall PvP and needs to be brought up but for now (in 5.3), they've decided to focus on the specs that are the most over-performing and under performing specs and work on fixing them closer to their target stats so its not so overwhelmingly bad.

 

Bioware's explanation of how they do balancing was clear and made sense. I could agree with not agreeing with how they do it, not accounting for certain things and especially how long it takes them to make changes but this thread was created just because you read the chart and immediately went on a full fledged rant about how arsenal mercs and lightning sorcs are supposed to be the same tier but yet they obviously are not. WHICH BIOWARE STATES IN THEIR POST IS WHY MERCS ARE GETTING NERFED.

 

But because none of you passed reading comprehension in English back in 12th grade, I can understand how this could be frustrating.

Edited June 16, 2017 by JargoFett

[RevorteX]

Your argument sounds very logical and straightforward. I myself am having fun with the sorc even when the disbalance is very high. The problem which concerns most players plus myself is that the discipline won't get enough or any changes at all. It still needs some damage buff and survavibility buffs so it can last longer than a few seconds when 1v1 against any other class. We don't want it to be like a merc and go and kill 3-4 toons at a time,but stil to be able to survive and be used for objectives in warzones.

[Clanner]

Agreeing with Belphegor here.

 

While there might be issues with Lightning Sorc in rated areas, they are fine enough in regs.

 

I have been playing this game since start as main Sage in PvP. We had times of better DMG output and usefullness, but less fun. Remember the melee-train? That Jugg that would hunt you through the warzone... oh no, the two Juggs+the 2 Maras. 3 PTs in every second WZ and you just can't really kite them, while you can properly LoS snipers and mercs nowadays.

 

Even though we might be easy to kill, I feel less picked on and denied of my casts than in some times in the far past.

Playing Sage imo has seen more frustrating times than now. Maybe that is cause people don't only see the easy kill, but also the threat and we don't look like one at the moment.

We are still great to defend nodes, make good dmg and have a lot of useful tools: e.g. pull in huttball and with the utility as a quick help for somebody under focus. All the funny slows and root stuff, not to mention the bubble or bubble-stun. All the kiting and hide behind stuff in alderaan mid zerg, whirling out the right healer at the right moment, hard stun with dmg reduction afterwards, bubble stun in a pile of healers, while pressure is high.

 

If a mediocre player like me can have great fun in PvP, still be upper 20% in dmg output (without spamming AoE that is), not to mention offheals, playing this class as many would say "it should not be played" (I dont just stand in the backline, casting stuff, I usually sneak around on the level of enemy healers, cause enemy melee DDs suddenly start ignoring you there, using hard stuns, bubble and whirlwind on enemy healers), then it can't be that useless.

 

So no, it's not the death of lightning sorc... it's a phase and it's not even as frustrating as other phases have been. Never say die!

[Zolxtren]

Agreeing with Belphegor here.

 

While there might be issues with Lightning Sorc in rated areas, they are fine enough in regs.

 

I have been playing this game since start as main Sage in PvP. We had times of better DMG output and usefullness, but less fun. Remember the melee-train? That Jugg that would hunt you through the warzone... oh no, the two Juggs+the 2 Maras. 3 PTs in every second WZ and you just can't really kite them, while you can properly LoS snipers and mercs nowadays.

 

Even though we might be easy to kill, I feel less picked on and denied of my casts than in some times in the far past.

Playing Sage imo has seen more frustrating times than now. Maybe that is cause people don't only see the easy kill, but also the threat and we don't look like one at the moment.

We are still great to defend nodes, make good dmg and have a lot of useful tools: e.g. pull in huttball and with the utility as a quick help for somebody under focus. All the funny slows and root stuff, not to mention the bubble or bubble-stun. All the kiting and hide behind stuff in alderaan mid zerg, whirling out the right healer at the right moment, hard stun with dmg reduction afterwards, bubble stun in a pile of healers, while pressure is high.

 

If a mediocre player like me can have great fun in PvP, still be upper 20% in dmg output (without spamming AoE that is), not to mention offheals, playing this class as many would say "it should not be played" (I dont just stand in the backline, casting stuff, I usually sneak around on the level of enemy healers, cause enemy melee DDs suddenly start ignoring you there, using hard stuns, bubble and whirlwind on enemy healers), then it can't be that useless.

 

So no, it's not the death of lightning sorc... it's a phase and it's not even as frustrating as other phases have been. Never say die!

 

yeah all this possible IF your ignored meanwhile other classes can do all these while getting tunneled by 2 other class.

 

so no Sorc dps in PvP is trash tier and you only can do these stuff because everyone knows DPS sorcs suck balls so people let you freecast.

 

you know what happens if a Melee DPS with their superior Mobility superior CC superior def CDs and superior DPS decides to sit on a Sorc all match ? yeah that sorc will died all match 24/7.....

Edited June 16, 2017 by Zolxtren

[Clanner]

As I said, I main the freaking thing since ages. ^^

 

I know how it is to have those guys on you all time. You cannot change if one of them has a crush on you all match, but you can solve a lot by just not using the usual ranged-DD-positioning. Always be close to an LoS-object, avoid avoid avoid.

 

Cast-sage was never great to play, too easy to shut down, BUT as I pointed out, we had worse times than now.

[Zolxtren]

As I said, I main the freaking thing since ages. ^^

 

I know how it is to have those guys on you all time. You cannot change if one of them has a crush on you all match, but you can solve a lot by just not using the usual ranged-DD-positioning. Always be close to an LoS-object, avoid avoid avoid.

 

Cast-sage was never great to play, too easy to shut down, BUT as I pointed out, we had worse times than now.

 

I agree that we were in a worse time.... I remember when we not had these selfheals and tele or the bubble....

 

Sorcs were sitting ducks.... But back then lighting actualy was doing some realy nice dmg....

[ViktorAres]

As I said, I main the freaking thing since ages. ^^

 

I know how it is to have those guys on you all time. You cannot change if one of them has a crush on you all match, but you can solve a lot by just not using the usual ranged-DD-positioning. Always be close to an LoS-object, avoid avoid avoid.

 

Cast-sage was never great to play, too easy to shut down, BUT as I pointed out, we had worse times than now.

 

I don't think we had worse times and I played since pre-3.0. The class is the now the least fun to play due to the damage nerf. I really get tired of casting so many spells and doing so little damage in full 248 gear. Lightning hits like noodle soup.

Edited June 17, 2017 by ViktorAres

[ViktorAres]

What's funny is that Lighting Sorc is listed as a "burst" class, while Engi Sniper is listed as sustained DPS, LMAO.

Boom, explosive probe auto-crit and third of your health is gone. Burst this!

 

As for Lightning Sorc being seating ducks in pre-3.0, that was optional and could be easily fixed with a hydrid build. I remember allocating my points into Madness up to no-cooldown Force Lightning with Lightning Strike Proc, and the rest into Lightning. While I did not have Thundering Blast, I almost never hard casted an ability and was very mobile, with my high dps. Topped the charts in almost every match.

Edited June 17, 2017 by ViktorAres

[DenariusJay]

Dps numbers are all relative. A class is only seems OP when other classes are underperforming. If lightning/MM parses on avg 8k and arsenal is parsing on avg 9k (making up numbers right now), it doesn't matter what you do, you can tone down arsenal or buff the other two. The results are the same. I speculate they decided to tone down arsenal since its a hell a lot of less work to just adjust the 1 spec then to rework and adjust the other specs to make it onpar with arsenal.

[Zolxtren]

Dps numbers are all relative. A class is only seems OP when other classes are underperforming. If lightning/MM parses on avg 8k and arsenal is parsing on avg 9k (making up numbers right now), it doesn't matter what you do, you can tone down arsenal or buff the other two. The results are the same. I speculate they decided to tone down arsenal since its a hell a lot of less work to just adjust the 1 spec then to rework and adjust the other specs to make it onpar with arsenal.

 

Sorcs are not on par with anything anyone.

[However]

The only rational excuse for light armor is you are tops dps.

The only rational excuse for medium armor is you are in the middle of dps.

The only rational excuse for heavy armor is you are at the bottom of dps.

Anything else is propaganda.

 

Excuse one for warriors having top dps:

They are stuck fighting in the middle and front of conflicts.

Answer: the main healing is in the middle and front of conflicts in both pve and pvp. Warriors always run back to the middle for heals.

 

Excuse two for warriors having top dps:

Ranged are too far away to attack or pursue.

Answer: warriors have not only great pursuit abilities such as leaping and speed increases, but also have great slows and stuns to keep targets within range.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

The only rational excuse for light armor is you are tops dps.

The only rational excuse for medium armor is you are in the middle of dps.

The only rational excuse for heavy armor is you are at the bottom of dps.

Anything else is propaganda.

 

Excuse one for warriors having top dps:

They are stuck fighting in the middle and front of conflicts.

Answer: the main healing is in the middle and front of conflicts in both pve and pvp. Warriors always run back to the middle for heals.

 

Excuse two for warriors having top dps:

Ranged are too far away to attack or pursue.

Answer: warriors have not only great pursuit abilities such as leaping and speed increases, but also have great slows and stuns to keep targets within range.

 

 

Yeah, Warriors should do less damage than people who wear dresses.

 

Ya know, there is a lot of sympathy for DPS Sorcs, I'd say 3/4 of the people on the forums are in support of DPS sorcs getting some love, and I'm one of them.

 

Peice of advice, don't try and make your bones on the reputations and the names of others. It's a very good way of turning supporters and people who have been speaking out on your behalf into people who'll leave you to the sharks.

 

Sith Warriors aren't ranged DPS, they are not you competetors, nor, and most importantly are they OP or FOTM.

Many people know my stance on pure DPS classes, I think they should have the highest DPS [provided they don't have self heals]. That doesn't mean that the idea is to out DPS everyone else by a wide margin. The DPS margins between dps specs are far to wide, over a 1000 top to bottom, there seems to be very little reason why these margins should have to be so wide, 400-500 is the most is should be.

 

If you think that melee don't have it harder than ranged, you're wrong.

 

I'm all for DPS sorcs getting better DPS, you want make a case for them doing higher DPS than melee/warriors, I tend to think you will end up losing some of the support for DPS sorcs getting some love.

 

Don't step on people who aren't against you or that's exactly what you'll make them.

Edited June 18, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Clanner]

I don't think we had worse times and I played since pre-3.0. The class is the now the least fun to play due to the damage nerf. I really get tired of casting so many spells and doing so little damage in full 248 gear. Lightning hits like noodle soup.

 

Yeah, I guess the whole thing is also a matter of perspective. To me personally the melee-train felt much worse than sniper+merc ocean we are drowning in today, cause they can be LoSed, while the freaking Juggs+PTs, that would hunt you through the whole warzone, couldn't be avoided.

 

So I still enjoy playing it. Others don't seem to. Seems most mercs play bad anyway, cause I rarely get the e-net at the tricky times. I often get away unpunished, if there is no premade using it at the right times. And as somebody mentioned before... the whole phasewalk thingy. We didn't have it in melee-train times. So I indeed feel better these days than back then. You surely also have to adapt your choice of utilities. Stun-bubble and rooting isn't that important anymore, while you surely need the root-breaker for sprinting out, else every sniper gets you pants down.

I know at least one good sage that doesn't use the utility for turbulence casting while walking, cause practically you don't need it as much as in the past. That frees one slot for other interesting stuff.

 

As I previously said, I see myself not as a very good player and I manage to have fun and be good in DPS output and I am not totally useless when it comes to kills, not to mention defending objectives. So if I can be ok, a skilled player that is more familiar with other classes and stuff, should be able to make a difference in 8-player-WZs. Rated is another area, I am only talking about 8-player-WZs.

[Zolxtren]

Yeah, I guess the whole thing is also a matter of perspective. To me personally the melee-train felt much worse than sniper+merc ocean we are drowning in today, cause they can be LoSed, while the freaking Juggs+PTs, that would hunt you through the whole warzone, couldn't be avoided.

 

So I still enjoy playing it. Others don't seem to. Seems most mercs play bad anyway, cause I rarely get the e-net at the tricky times. I often get away unpunished, if there is no premade using it at the right times. And as somebody mentioned before... the whole phasewalk thingy. We didn't have it in melee-train times. So I indeed feel better these days than back then. You surely also have to adapt your choice of utilities. Stun-bubble and rooting isn't that important anymore, while you surely need the root-breaker for sprinting out, else every sniper gets you pants down.

I know at least one good sage that doesn't use the utility for turbulence casting while walking, cause practically you don't need it as much as in the past. That frees one slot for other interesting stuff.

 

As I previously said, I see myself not as a very good player and I manage to have fun and be good in DPS output and I am not totally useless when it comes to kills, not to mention defending objectives. So if I can be ok, a skilled player that is more familiar with other classes and stuff, should be able to make a difference in 8-player-WZs. Rated is another area, I am only talking about 8-player-WZs.

 

and those people would do waaaaay better on any other class......

 

DPS sorcs needs a real Def CD + dmg buffs.....

[Icykill_]

and those people would do waaaaay better on any other class......

 

DPS sorcs needs a real Def CD + dmg buffs.....

 

Really?

 

I consider myself unlucky if I die in a reg match. It's dps that's the issue, not survivability.

[ViktorAres]

Really?

 

I consider myself unlucky if I die in a reg match. It's dps that's the issue, not survivability.

 

In regs, sorcs survivability is okay because of other 7 people on your team. You can free cast at 35 meters, and Force Speed / Phase Walk when attacked. In ranked, sorc's survivability is not enough. Sorcs DCDs are inferior to those of mercs and snipers, in addition to sorcs' light armor and lowest single target dps. Sorcs' casts also get pushed back and interrupted, unlike the powerful attacks of mercs and engi snipers.

Edited June 18, 2017 by ViktorAres

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

In regs, sorcs survivability is okay because of other 7 people on your team. You can free cast at 35 meters, and Force Speed / Phase Walk when attacked. In ranked, sorc's survivability is not enough. Sorcs DCDs are inferior to those of mercs and snipers, in addition to sorcs' light armor and lowest single target dps. Sorcs' casts also get pushed back and interrupted, unlike the powerful attacks of mercs and engi snipers.

 

Mercs and Snipers have the edge on everyone at the moment, and while there is no doubt that Sorcs are more outclasses than some others, Merc and Snipers have more and better DCDS than pretty much everyone.

 

Regaring Sorc defenses, in regs, I don't think they're in need of defensive improvement, everytime you crit on one of them you get stunned which is ridiculous and I don't think that a small point, that in and of itself is a defensive because it stops an attackers damage dead in it's tracks. Given the frequency of that effect, their ability to teleport to a safe distance un-impinged [usually to a safe hiding place], their invulnerability bubble, and their abilities to self heal, and that they are ranged, I don't see their survivability as needing improvement [Ranked performance cannot be the standard used for class balancing, that would be a ridiculous point of reference given the tiny percentage of players who even engage in ranked play]. Also, as a point of reference, the following is an excerpt from the Sorc class guide on dulfy regarding survivability [not that this should be taken as law of course, but it has some evidentiary value -

 

"Even the Sorcs have Light Armor, we are not as squishy as one would think. We have a bubble that lasts for 30s that is refreshable every 15s, a passive that allows us to have 9% additional damage reduction, and we have another shield that gives us invulnerability for 8s. Additionally we have utilities that make our bubbles stronger and our threat dump and large self heal grant damage reduction as well. All of this combined with our ability to heal ourselves in a pinch, allows us to survive well in fights."

 

Some buff to DPS is in order, no doubt about it, but within reason, as Sorc is something of a support class [by that I mean group utility], though not entirely by any means [like Captains/Minstrels in LOTRO, like Engineers in STO, like Druids in DDO, like Bards and Enchanters in EQ, like Clerics in Rift, like The Chanter AION, ect.]. If DPS is really all you care about [and I don't behove anyone for feeling that way, I sure as hell do!!], a class that also doubled as support class probably isn't the best choice because people will look to you for usage of you're supportive abilities at times. Given that their lightsabers aren't much more than stat sticks gives some impression of this dual nature.

 

Some aspects of their partial support role nature [group utility] include:

 

* Sorc pull

* Battle rez

* Cleanse

* Raid buff, force and AoEdebuffs

* Self and off heals

* Bubble which allows them to completely mitigate some mechanics with Force Bubble.

 

I don't ever regret the presence of a DPS sorc on my team in PVP, I may not be relying on their DPS so much, but I can't count the amount of times a sorc has turned a bad situation around by strategical means by use off their non dps abilities.

 

It's important for class balancing purposes that all the abilities a class has be taken into account and considered in determining where they should fit in terms of DPS output compared to other classes. Secondary effects not only provide aid in many aspects of the game that are not directly combat related but are nonetheless important in overall success in group content, but in and of themselves at times serve to effect and improve DPS indirectly [i.e. You can't DPS when you are dead, so self heals which effect survivability should be taken into account as well].

 

I am personally of the notion [this is just an opinion mind you] that there should be a direct self-heal to DPS ratio applied to all classes wherein the more self healing a class has the option of producing the less DPS output it should be capable of. The very reason that makes Mercs and Snipers so OP is that they have both possess high survivability [in large part from their self heals, but not exclusively] and high levels of damage. The longer you live the more damage you can do [death is always a DPS loss].

 

If a merc can do as much damage as another DPSer, and they have a second life due to H2F and another DPSer doing the same damage does not have a second life, you have right there an imbalance, you have one class that will perform notably better than the other [assuming equal levels of skill] and you have just made a very good reason why you should not take the DPSer with only one life into a HM/NiM operation or Ranked PVP. Which is where you find Sorcs currently.

 

Merc is a great example to compare to Sorc DPS currently, in 4.0 it was believed they did not possess adequate survivability compared to other classes in PVP [whether that's actually true or not] so they buffed them. Even if they needed a buff, they were given too much of a buff. So even if a class is lagging behind and underperforming, that doesn't entitle them to buffs that will make them over perform. Look at the merc/sniper hatred currently, people are going to be hunting them down like dogs when they get nerfed.

 

People haven't forgotten when Sorcs ruled supreme, it wasn't even that long ago [early part of 4.0]. No one wants a new OP class running around. It would only result in them getting ripped down at a later date. Better to make appropriate changes that bring balance, than to have a temporary advantage that will result in a severe nerf later on all over again.

Edited June 18, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[ViktorAres]

Ah battle rez, so usefull in PVP.