Weak Protagonist? (Kinda All Over The Place)

[OMGitsDrako]

I know this has been thrown around the forums a lot but I truly feel like force-sensitives in this game are dumbed down and weakened, let me explain. At the start of the game you are a gifted young padawan/acolyte hoping to impress your master accordingly right? Yet, during the middle of the game when you being leveling up, the legendary force manipulating jedi/sith "Outlander" still feels like the same trainee as when you started, albeit with some new toys. Some basic enemies in the game can just bench press you at higher levels and can completely ignore your force abilities. And the same basic droids not only take several swipes from a lightsaber but also can ignore the fact you can crush them with your mind. Why cant I toss a repair droid 800mph into a wall? Instead I have the option to force choke it for 15 damage at level 70 WOAHHH. The legacy choke is much better but is also on a 10 minute leash.

 

Another thing is in KotET in game and in cinematics alike you are assaulted over and over again like some weak trainee yet AGAIN, being thrown around and being helpless against more powerful people such as Arcann and his sister. And while you are no doubt weaker than them seeing as you were just thawed out recently and they are decedents of one of the most powerful force users ever, they all make you look laughably child-like with the skytroopers included. The legendary Outlander fabled and deadly gets bullied by some basic skytroopers? Yet you see every single one of the characters besides you literally one shot them and move on to other things in the cutscenes.

 

Now I do understand do to balance reasons why you cant be an all powerful force god, but why are your companions killing things faster than you are if you are so feared? And that goes for every force sensitive class in the game. I WISH I could even slightly rival Arcanns power towards the end but instead im left attacking him with a dinky lightsaber and picking up a ****** shield to defend from his oh so powerful force powers. And the same damn skytroopers keep spamming down from the sky and I cant seem to destroy them quite like my R2-D2 companion thing. And like I said I understand why we cant be super strong due to balance issues and difficulty reasons but I feel like you cut off too much. Instead of me feeling like a balanced well trained Sith Lord/Darth or Jedi Master I feel considerably weaker than even the most basic enemies. And I am not just talking about gameplay here seeing as I am well geared and rarely die thanks to all of my companions having PHDs but I feel like in terms of the cinematics and lore the force sensitive Protagonist in this game regardless of faction and class is just a pushover in comparison to some of the NPCs and companions you get and some of the enemies you face.

 

I also understand that this may be hard to follow but i'm tired and was thinking so my bad.

 

TL : DR

Jedi/Sith force protagonist feels expendable and weak while your companions and enemies live up to their reputation. And you never get the satisfaction of living up to your true potential as a Lord or Master when you reach that point.

Edited May 19, 2017 by OMGitsDrako

[MrMcmadness]

The more overpowered force users get the less I care.

[Elemutation]

I honestly think the biggest offender of dumbing force-users down is Arcann. I get that he's supposed to be super strong in his own right, but we've been doing our thing for years (in-game time), so we should at least be able to match him. I can understand those who can't use the force being outmatched, and I'm even willing to admit that maybe he was able to overpower us during our first fight with Arcann, but by the time the second bout comes around we should be able to match or surpass him without the need of environmental items the fight forces you to use. Stop making us inferior to the antagonist for the sake of dragging things out, just make them elusive or something.

[SourOrange]

The problem arises from the story direction, and Bioware made the same mistake as almost every other MMO developer in that they hit their ceiling before they were ready to stop producing story content.

 

In order to pose any threat to the player character, they think each villain has to be increasingly stronger (which isn't true, since our victories in the past came with a lot of hard work attached). There comes a point when they've done this so many times that the entire story has to jump the shark to maintain its direction. Each new villain is ridiculously more powerful and in the end, it only damages our suspension of disbelief.

 

It's not that your character is weak, it's a problem with Bioware's storytelling direction.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not too bothered by Arcann or Vaylin, because they're effectively demigods, the children of the closest thing to a god the TOR universe has. Them having more Force power than the protagonist isn't that surprising.

[SithKoriandr]

I'm not too bothered by Arcann or Vaylin, because they're effectively demigods, the children of the closest thing to a god the TOR universe has. Them having more Force power than the protagonist isn't that surprising.

 

True, however we had a Knight who dealt with something akin to that already.

 

Not only that, Senya isn't one, and she tosses you around like a rag doll.

 

Then there's just the feats, they don't let you handle anymore. Doors to tough to open. Lift a whole chunk of ship on Taris with my Consular, ripped security doors open and now...stuck.

[Kolthan]

or how about the Outlander who *Isn't* a force user? My agent is supposed to be big and bad, but couldn't hurt Darth Jadus, cause he's *second in power from the Emperor* but then in Fallen Empire and KOTET, my agent who suddenly becomes the Alliance commander is all powerful and kicks the crap out of Arcann, Vaylin and then Valkorion. How does one explain that? I mean. Darth Jadus was the second most powerful Sith in the galaxy, buuut then my agent takes out Valkorion in a stunning finish. Wut? How? How can one explain the "mysteries of Light and Dark and being more "balanced" when your....not a force user...idk man.

 

[Xilizhra]

True, however we had a Knight who dealt with something akin to that already.

 

Not only that, Senya isn't one, and she tosses you around like a rag doll.

 

Then there's just the feats, they don't let you handle anymore. Doors to tough to open. Lift a whole chunk of ship on Taris with my Consular, ripped security doors open and now...stuck.

I'm not sure how hard the Emperor was trying in that fight, or if the Voice can channel his full power (also, IIRC, he'd been weakened by Sel-Makor). As for Senya, it was only once, and other people can fling you around in the class stories too... and the door issue happened immediately after you'd been released from poisoned carbonite, so I don't know if that counts. Either way, it doesn't bother me much.

[Yezzan]

I get what the OP is saying. All the force-users are powerful:

The Consular was more powerful than her masters (according to Yuon)

The Knight is the most powerful the Jedi Order has seen in years (according to Satele)

The Warrior is powerful and hence, was allowed to by=pass some of the things low acolytes had to do (according to Tremel).

The inquisitor was powerful and the only force user to have killed a Darth by the end of the Prologue; and remember even a Jedi Master would be hard-pressed to kill a Sith Lord, let alone a Darth( according to Zash).

 

But, as the OP has stated, your power remains the same through the entire story. I mean, they could have shown your power in the cutscences. take that scene with Senya and the Knights, see totally just wiped the floor with then and she beat Vaylin. And again , Lana took on three knights, and she pretty much kept you alive on the throne from a sea of droids. But, you just keep getting beat up left right and center.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Yezzan

[JediAkemi]

KotFE and KotET suffer from "One size fits none" storytelling - they tried to pull the regulars and the Force Users so they met in the middle and it just comes across as weird and clunky after you reach Odessan.

 

They should've made it so classes could play to their strengths or at the very least had a version of Chapter XII for normal people to actually go on the mission with Jorgan & Kaliyo instead of forcing them to deal with all the "new way to use the Force" stuff that wouldn't mean anything to them.

[EzioMessi]

KotFE and KotET suffer from "One size fits none" storytelling - they tried to pull the regulars and the Force Users so they met in the middle and it just comes across as weird and clunky after you reach Odessan.

 

They should've made it so classes could play to their strengths or at the very least had a version of Chapter XII for normal people to actually go on the mission with Jorgan & Kaliyo instead of forcing them to deal with all the "new way to use the Force" stuff that wouldn't mean anything to them.

 

They should not have merged the stories into one class at all. They should have left all 8 classes unique to play a role against the Eternal Empire; Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior should have taken on Arcann, Consular/Inquisitor should have taken on Vaylin, Smugger/IA should have helped Indo Zal form a rebellion, Trooper/BH should have commanded troops into open battes such as Odessen, Darvannis, etc.

 

Instead we got this idiotic midde ground. I like the KotFE story, and I like the KotET story, but it just feels so cookie cutter to repeat. It made sense for my Jedi Knight to get tossed around by Arcann, and strike him down with a lightsaber attack. But my Sith Inquisitor shouldn't even try to engage Arcann in a lightsaber duel, she should fry him to a crisp without any effort after he's been weakened.

 

To OP (and others): out of curiosity, what makes you say that the protagonist feels weak in gameplay too? I do get where you're coming from when saying that the cutscenes make you feel weak, but in gameplay you can just mow down entire legions of skytroopers and Knights of Zakuul in seconds. In fact I found it awkward when Lana stayed back and fought 4 knights and my character said "these better not be last words I'm hearing", because in the amount of time it takes me to say that, I'd have killed those 4 knights anyways.

 

Imo it does make sense to make Arcann, Vaylin, the Emperor, and other such bosses feel like a challenge. Maybe they could have done a bit better than make us pick up a MacGuffin to block Arcann's attacks. Maybe force-users should have gotten a "force barrier" conditional akin to how we got changed force-attacks from the holocrons when fighting Valkorion. But other than in boss fights, we literally tear anyone and everyone apart, even other Jedi and Sith.

Edited May 23, 2017 by EzioMessi

[casirabit]

Regarding the game play issue:

 

I don't feel that my companions are stronger than my character. In fact there been times I haven't even used them and was able to do quite well without them attacking or healing, so in game play being weaker, nope.

Edited May 23, 2017 by casirabit

[EzioMessi]

Regarding the game play issue:

 

I don't feel that my companions are stronger than my character. In fact there been times I haven't even used them and was able to do quite well without them attacking or healing, so in game play being weaker, nope.

 

I kinda feel that way if I set my companion to DPS and am doing low level content. The "normalized" companions kill things far faster than before, especially if you have any kind of presence or influence. The effect goes away by the time we enter KotFE tho, so idk.

[OMGitsDrako]

They should not have merged the stories into one class at all. They should have left all 8 classes unique to play a role against the Eternal Empire; Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior should have taken on Arcann, Consular/Inquisitor should have taken on Vaylin, Smugger/IA should have helped Indo Zal form a rebellion, Trooper/BH should have commanded troops into open battes such as Odessen, Darvannis, etc.

 

Instead we got this idiotic midde ground. I like the KotFE story, and I like the KotET story, but it just feels so cookie cutter to repeat. It made sense for my Jedi Knight to get tossed around by Arcann, and strike him down with a lightsaber attack. But my Sith Inquisitor shouldn't even try to engage Arcann in a lightsaber duel, she should fry him to a crisp without any effort after he's been weakened.

 

To OP (and others): out of curiosity, what makes you say that the protagonist feels weak in gameplay too? I do get where you're coming from when saying that the cutscenes make you feel weak, but in gameplay you can just mow down entire legions of skytroopers and Knights of Zakuul in seconds. In fact I found it awkward when Lana stayed back and fought 4 knights and my character said "these better not be last words I'm hearing", because in the amount of time it takes me to say that, I'd have killed those 4 knights anyways.

 

Imo it does make sense to make Arcann, Vaylin, the Emperor, and other such bosses feel like a challenge. Maybe they could have done a bit better than make us pick up a MacGuffin to block Arcann's attacks. Maybe force-users should have gotten a "force barrier" conditional akin to how we got changed force-attacks from the holocrons when fighting Valkorion. But other than in boss fights, we literally tear anyone and everyone apart, even other Jedi and Sith.

 

It isn't that you aren't strong in the gameplay its that it doesn't make you feel strong, do you see where i'm coming from? In the gameplay you can die just as easily from some basic skytroopers and knights as you can from Vaylin and Arcann (A little exaggeration).

 

When in reality a Legendary Jedi or Sith such as oneself should effortlessly cleave/crisp through hordes of the same baddies just as easily as your companions can in the cinematics. When instead you are sat there buttonmashing and roflstomping, killing enemies by waving a lightsaber around instead of force pulling/pushing them off ledges by the hundreds or more likely leaping over the head of your enemies and striking a coup de grace with a deadly flourish as someone like a Jedi Knight or their Sith counterpart.

 

So as to reiterate; in the game, the combat is done well to a point however it doesn't seem to itch that power fantasy of mine where some simple "roger rogers" get tossed around like a football with a stepdad. And the force choke and crush that is to be feared from the Sith cannot even kill a measly droid outright despite your astonishing rank and skill. But that is more of a nitpick than a serious point I was trying to make. The combat is fine as it comes with the type of mmorpg that SWTOR is. But how ****** would it be to prove to Arcann and Vaylin as well as your companions that you are to be feared and respected and that Darth or Master isnt just a title.

[dcaleb]

They should not have merged the stories into one class at all. They should have left all 8 classes unique to play a role against the Eternal Empire; Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior should have taken on Arcann, Consular/Inquisitor should have taken on Vaylin, Smugger/IA should have helped Indo Zal form a rebellion, Trooper/BH should have commanded troops into open battes such as Odessen, Darvannis, etc.

 

Instead we got this idiotic midde ground. I like the KotFE story, and I like the KotET story, but it just feels so cookie cutter to repeat. It made sense for my Jedi Knight to get tossed around by Arcann, and strike him down with a lightsaber attack. But my Sith Inquisitor shouldn't even try to engage Arcann in a lightsaber duel, she should fry him to a crisp without any effort after he's been weakened.

 

To OP (and others): out of curiosity, what makes you say that the protagonist feels weak in gameplay too? I do get where you're coming from when saying that the cutscenes make you feel weak, but in gameplay you can just mow down entire legions of skytroopers and Knights of Zakuul in seconds. In fact I found it awkward when Lana stayed back and fought 4 knights and my character said "these better not be last words I'm hearing", because in the amount of time it takes me to say that, I'd have killed those 4 knights anyways.

 

Imo it does make sense to make Arcann, Vaylin, the Emperor, and other such bosses feel like a challenge. Maybe they could have done a bit better than make us pick up a MacGuffin to block Arcann's attacks. Maybe force-users should have gotten a "force barrier" conditional akin to how we got changed force-attacks from the holocrons when fighting Valkorion. But other than in boss fights, we literally tear anyone and everyone apart, even other Jedi and Sith.

 

The sad fact of the matter is that somewhere along the line it was decided that boosting profit by cutting down development with a single mashed together frankenstory was the way to go. Thats why we also get things like Koth randomly installing a super nuke on your ship without permission even if he stuck around just like a Koth trying to protect the ship from you after stealing it (and why every companion it is possible to kill is never going to get any significance again, why waste time on characters that might not even be around).

[internaty]

I know the feeling.

 

My jedi sage:

Member of the jedi council.

Healer of the sith plague.

All around epic healer who can keep entire armies alive?

Smarted charater in the game.

 

Doesnt heal himself or help lena blast open the door.

Doesnt use the force to sheild himself when acran tries to hit him.

Doesnt use lift and force push vaylin off a building.

 

Etc.

 

So many times i was asking myself: why dont i just use this and win.

And the answer:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutsceneIncompetence

 

If our charaters where allowed to accauly do smart things.

The game would only last a hour.

 

Personaly:

I would have had the empire and republic war last for hunderds of years.

There is so many thing's that could have been done.

Imperials level a planet.

Republic rebuild it.

Republic steals planes for a new sith ship.

Sith use said ship prototype to cripple/destroy an republic ship yard.

 

We could have cutesence where our enemies flee from us or have our charaters have there own way to breat down the door.

 

I honestly cant wrape my head around how they when from eatch class is different to one size fits all.

Edited May 28, 2017 by internaty

[Yezzan]

They could have written one story and then decide the role that each class would play in that story. So, you would have to play all classes in order to see the full story fleshed out. But at least we would not have the one-size-fits-all foolishness that we have now.

 

There should be one outlander; the Jedi Knight -- he's the only one with a vested interested in destroying the Emperor.

 

The events of the Zakullan invasion is where the other classes would come in. Imperious would ascend to the position of Emperor.

the Wrath defends the Empire aginst he Hands and the Imperial Guards

 

Tropper fight war.

 

Smuggler get behind blocakades

 

Agent infiltrate Zakuul ( like Kaliyo did)

 

Counselor became Grandmaster after Satele exiled herself.

 

Hunter help mandalore.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Yezzan