Help me with Critical Rating vs Power

[Seterade]

>people *still* believe this myth that alacrity is better for dot specs than burst

 

I main Hatred sin, and in full 242 with 248 main hand an offhand, and I wouldn't run anything under 14% alacrity on it, I have parsed both full power augs and full alacrity augs the there in no dps loss in alacrity build, I would say it adds dps, but I no longer have the combat log clarify it. I also don't want to spend the credits to re aug my main just to report the difference between alacrity augs and power augs.

[yellow_]

I main Hatred sin, and in full 242 with 248 main hand an offhand, and I wouldn't run anything under 14% alacrity on it, I have parsed both full power augs and full alacrity augs the there in no dps loss in alacrity build, I would say it adds dps, but I no longer have the combat log clarify it. I also don't want to spend the credits to re aug my main just to report the difference between alacrity augs and power augs.

the value of alacrity per se is a completely different debate

 

I'm specifically talking about this idea that it is somehow especially helpful for dot specs versus burst specs. It is equally good, atrocious, meh, god-tier, or ****-tier (whatever your feelings are) for both

[DavidAtkinson]

I don't think you should go hard into either power, mastery nor crit tbh. I run 13% alacrity in deception right now and it works extremely well.

 

Sure, my attacks themselves don't hit as hard.

But I hit 13% faster. My cooldowns are more readily available and I have more control through reduced CC cooldowns.

 

All in all, with stat pools as big as they are now.. I'd advise all sins to at least get SOME alacrity.

And most definitely get 105% or slightly higher Accuracy.

 

 

I think in the end it all comes down personal style.. I prefer to hit harder than 13% faster.. I dunno. It's just me.

 

Believe me. I tried Alacrity on deception before switching to hatred and I really didnt enjoy the fact that my hits weren't hard enough but faster.

[teclado]

Regarding alacrity, the way I look at it is this: what is your spec and what are you trying to accomplish? Bant's computations show that for maximizing sustained damage, you definitely need a good amount of alacrity for all specs - not just DoT specs. That assumes you are sitting on a target for a sustained period of time (such as an operation boss fight).

 

However, we all know that PvP generally does not involve sitting on a target for a sustained period of time - unless e.g. you are sitting on a guarded healer and not really killing them. If that is the case, you can go with Bant's optimal numbers to maximize your sustained dps and hope to wear down the target over time, or you could throw alacrity out the window and hope to burst down your target quickly (sacrificing sustained damage in favor of higher damage in a short burst).

 

I think Carnage vs Fury vs Annihilation is a good comparison here. Annihilation is a DoT spec and is never going to have great burst damage. So in order to maximize the strength of the spec (sustained damage), I would gear accordingly and go with something close to Bant's optimized numbers. You are not going to burst that healer down, but instead you will wear them down (especially given some DoT spread - put them in a bind where they can't heal everybody at once, they have to choose who lives and who dies).

 

Carnage is a burst spec, but it also has pretty good sustained damage. The Frenzy (formerly Gore) window changes things a bit. You need enough alacrity to fit your abilities into that Frenzy window in order to maximize your burst, which also benefits your sustained damage at the same time. Therefore, I would go with just enough alacrity to fit what you need into your Frenzy window, with added consideration for if you want to fit maybe a fourth hit into the Frenzy window with Berserk active (if possible given your stat pool size).

 

Fury has bad sustained damage and is all about burst. Therefore, don't waste points in alacrity trying to slightly improve a weakness - you would just end up with a watered-down spec that is not particularly good at anything. Instead, maximize your Mastery / Power (i'll stay out of that debate) in order to maximize your strength (burst damage). I would go with zero alacrity.

[saberscreen]

For the spirit of science, will you go to this thread and explain to them why they're wrong?

 

I'm going to ask you to quote my previous post containing the numbers and point out where exactly those equations are incorrect.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

The reason mastery is selected over power is its buff th crit chance, no? With crit already satisfied I'd feel ok to aug power myself.

 

I would aim for ~1800 crit max, put the rest into mastery or power then alacrity. YMMV.

 

I'd have to agree, once you start getting critical chance as high as OP has it [even before than as he has so much] the value of mastery diminishes, the small increase to crit chance is ineffectual in any meaningful way at that point and power will add more bonus damage than mastery. I run with a few power augs myself and i find it a bit better going that route. It's not a big difference in bonus damage of course but it's better than not having some extra damage if your not going to be able to make any real gains into crit at that point because of DR.

 

Regarding alacrity, while it is better for some specs more than others, it is nonetheless good for everyone. Dot specs it makes your DoTs tick faster which is some measure of a DPS increase [DPS - Damage per second] and applies to any attack for that matter, faster you get them off the less time you have for DPS value to start dropping. Makes channels go faster and speeds up all cooldowns. Anyone who has zero alacrity is diminishing their capability to some degree.

[Evolixe]

I think in the end it all comes down personal style.. I prefer to hit harder than 13% faster.. I dunno. It's just me.

 

Believe me. I tried Alacrity on deception before switching to hatred and I really didnt enjoy the fact that my hits weren't hard enough but faster.

 

It's just in your head. I can kill just as effectively as a full crit sin, if not more effectively.

 

People just have to get over the idea that when a stat doesn't increase your highest hitters damage it must be ****.

Because it clearly isn't ****.

[Evolixe]

However, we all know that PvP generally does not involve sitting on a target for a sustained period of time - unless e.g. you are sitting on a guarded healer and not really killing them. If that is the case, you can go with Bant's optimal numbers to maximize your sustained dps and hope to wear down the target over time, or you could throw alacrity out the window and hope to burst down your target quickly (sacrificing sustained damage in favor of higher damage in a short burst).

 

That's just the thing though. With more Alacrity your burst window does more damage in less time, it just doesn't last as long in comparison. The whole notion that your burst is taking a huge hit because you don't pick up stats that directly increase the numbers on your screen is plain and flat out wrong.

 

But to put it in simple perspective;

 

Go and put a mixstat sin vs a full crit sin and let them go ham with their burst. Stop the timer when the burst is over.

Mixstat sin will do x damage in 8.8 seconds

Crit sin with do less damage in 8.8 seconds, but x + something in 10 seconds.

 

 

How often do you really use the entirety of your burst window when you hardswap on someone?

Alacrity is the better stat after a certain crit threshold has passed, imo.

[merovejec]

Its useful for both, but crucial for dot specs. =)

 

Yeah listen to the lady

[teclado]

I'm going to ask you to quote my previous post containing the numbers and point out where exactly those equations are incorrect.

I think your equations are too simple and your numbers are arbitrary. Where do you get 100 damage with 80% surge, 110 damage with 70% surge, 120 damage with 60% surge? I think you made those up. Are those real? What amounts of Cirt / Mastery / Power would give you those numbers? I could just as easily ask you to compare 100 damage with 80% surge, 101 damage with 70% surge, 102 damage with 60% surge. Does the surge decrease linearly with Crit as in your example (I didn't see Crit / Power / Mastery numbers, so I can only guess that is what you were going for given the even 10% decrease in surge at every step)? I don't think it does.

 

Are you going for sustained damage? Did you factor in Super Crit, Crit chance (you only showed surge)? How much surge and crit chance is gained for one point of Crit? How much damage is gained for one point of Power or Mastery? What is the size of your stat pool? How much alacrity are you working with? What is your rotation? What is your set bonus? All of these things (and more) factor into sustained damage over time. Bant went through all of this, painstakingly. You did not even mention them. Your equations are arbitrary with made-up numbers and they don't take most things into account.

[Xertasian]

It's just in your head. I can kill just as effectively as a full crit sin, if not more effectively.

 

People just have to get over the idea that when a stat doesn't increase your highest hitters damage it must be ****.

Because it clearly isn't ****.

 

Evo i'm a man of reason..i will give this a try..i'm guessing mix stat.u mean 7 alacrity augs and 7 power or mastery augs..huh..if i see a better improvement over me running full power augs..then i be 1st to come and say you was correct..

[Evolixe]

Evo i'm a man of reason..i will give this a try..i'm guessing mix stat.u mean 7 alacrity augs and 7 power or mastery augs..huh..if i see a better improvement over me running full power augs..then i be 1st to come and say you was correct..

 

http://i.imgur.com/xzx0tOi.png

 

How you get these stats is hardly important. But for your reference, I'm using the following:

 

Enhancements

1 Accuracy

1 Alacrity

5 Crit

 

Augments

1 Crit

3 Power

10 Alacrity

 

1 Alacrity Implant and 1 Alacrity Earpiece

1 Crit Implant

[Seterade]

Because I enjoy experimenting way too much I did it anyway.

 

first round 1.5m hp dummy.

stat values in spoiler.

 

Mastery 6667

end 8585

pow 5064

crit 1541

alacrity 448

acc 766

 

Force values

 

Bonus dmg: 3785.2

Bonus healing: 2743.0

Accuracy: 110.30%

Critical: 40.97%

Critical multiplier: 69:20%

force regen rate: 8.4

Alacrity: 4.76

 

 

7.2 dps (rounded down) Please keep parse responces civil, not trying to break any records just pointing out alacrity vs pow on dot spec.

 

second round 1.5m hp dummy

 

 

mastery 6667

end 8585

pow 3816

crit 1541

alacrity 1694

accuracy 766

 

force stats

bonus dmg 3483.8

bonus healing 2520.2

accuracy 110.30%

crit 40.97%

Crit mult 69.20%

force regen 9.2

alacrity 14.44

 

 

7.2 dps.

 

so basically, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, just preference.

 

again, keep in mind, I'm average, wasn't trying to break any record, pls be civil about parse comments.

[kissingaiur]

Because I enjoy experimenting way too much I did it anyway.

 

first round 1.5m hp dummy.

stat values in spoiler.

 

Mastery 6667

end 8585

pow 5064

crit 1541

alacrity 448

acc 766

 

Force values

 

Bonus dmg: 3785.2

Bonus healing: 2743.0

Accuracy: 110.30%

Critical: 40.97%

Critical multiplier: 69:20%

force regen rate: 8.4

Alacrity: 4.76

 

 

7.2 dps (rounded down) Please keep parse responces civil, not trying to break any records just pointing out alacrity vs pow on dot spec.

 

second round 1.5m hp dummy

 

 

mastery 6667

end 8585

pow 3816

crit 1541

alacrity 1694

accuracy 766

 

force stats

bonus dmg 3483.8

bonus healing 2520.2

accuracy 110.30%

crit 40.97%

Crit mult 69.20%

force regen 9.2

alacrity 14.44

 

 

7.2 dps.

 

so basically, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, just preference.

 

again, keep in mind, I'm average, wasn't trying to break any record, pls be civil about parse comments.

 

How long were your parses? From my understanding to test two sets of gear with different stats you need to be parsing for at least 45 minutes doing the same PERFECT rotation in each set to remove all chances of RNG for the result to be accurate.

Edited May 12, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Evolixe]

I don't really see what you're trying to get at?

 

If I go in an Alacrityless build for Deception, I do 15 to 20 percent less damage than with Alacrity in there.

Just posting logs doesn't prove anything. Especially if you are not that great at what you're doing. No offense.

[Evolixe]

How long were your parses? From my understanding to test two sets of gear with different stats you need to be parsing for at least 45 minutes doing the same PERFECT rotation in each set to remove all chances of RNG for the result to be accurate.

 

You could just do 100 parses in each set of gear instead and take the median. That would also work.

 

I've already done that for Deception by working my way through gearing for PvE.

I'm not going to bother doing 200 parses just to prove it.

[kissingaiur]

You could just do 100 parses in each set of gear instead and take the median. That would also work.

 

I've already done that for Deception by working my way through gearing for PvE.

I'm not going to bother doing 200 parses just to prove it.

 

My comment wasn't directed at you love. I just want to make sure if someone posts parse results they are actually done correctly.

[Evolixe]

My comment wasn't directed at you love. I just want to make sure if someone posts parse results they are actually done correctly.

 

I know. Quote was just on topic

[saberscreen]

I think your equations are too simple and your numbers are arbitrary.

 

I think Operation Dummies and Combat Training Dummies don't tell you much about your actual damage output in the ''real'' world of SWTOR, but that's just my silly opinion.

 

I mean, have you ever seen a Dummy Shield Itself? Ever seen a Dummy use Predation or Cover? Ever seen a Dummy with 30% Defense rating? Ever seen a Dummy with 16% Internal Resistance? Ever seen a Dummy use Pacify or Obfuscate on you? Ever seen a Dummy with 75% Tech Resistance? You can parse all you like, but different opponents require different tactics. So adding Critical isn't always the best thing to do. Some builds are actually better off without it. Let's just agree to disagree here? You can think I'm a fool if that makes you feel any better.

 

But I'll say this much: Ataru Sentinels/Marauders are definitely better off with Accuracy. More off-hand strikes mean more Ataru strikes, which give more benefits and proc/execute other abilities. 30% off-hand bonus. Hello! What good is that bonus if it misses 33% of the time? No, you want to maximize your off-hand all the way to increase your number of Ataru strikes.

 

Juyo Sentinels/Marauders are better off with Critical Rating because of their increased Critical chance with burns and the 6 Auto-Criticals they receive from using Zen/Berserk. These Criticals also give more benefits and proc/execute other abilities.

 

It's not as black and white as parsing may have you believe.

[Seterade]

I don't really see what you're trying to get at?

 

If I go in an Alacrityless build for Deception, I do 15 to 20 percent less damage than with Alacrity in there.

Just posting logs doesn't prove anything. Especially if you are not that great at what you're doing. No offense.

 

I thought OP asked about hatred? I'm sorry.

 

the parses took hold on..... 3.5 minutes. exact numbers are power augs, 7215 dps, alacrity augs, 7198 dps.

 

the gear was the same both parses, I switched out 13 power augs for 13 alacrity augs to power the difference in parse. I carry one accuracy aug to make 110% because if I don't the dummy resists some atts.

 

I hope this answered your question. Also I ran a few parses, and tried putting the "higher dps" utilitys, reaper rush and 3 reckless, plus 5% spike, it didn't change much.

 

on a side note, that armor hits 8.7 dps deception with the power augs, however with alacrity it loses about 700 dps.

 

Edit: added gear quality for further info

 

 

242 assassin set bonus helm

242 assassin set bonus chest

242 assassin set bonus gloves

242 assassin set bonus belt

242 assassin set bonus legs

248 assassin set bonus boots

248 assassin offhand

248 assassin mainhand

242 mastery relic

242 power relic

242 assassin set bracers

242 crit implant

242 crit implant

248 crit earpiece.

 

 

all augments are 228

Edited May 12, 2017 by Seterade

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I think your equations are too simple and your numbers are arbitrary. Where do you get 100 damage with 80% surge, 110 damage with 70% surge, 120 damage with 60% surge? I think you made those up. Are those real? What amounts of Cirt / Mastery / Power would give you those numbers? I could just as easily ask you to compare 100 damage with 80% surge, 101 damage with 70% surge, 102 damage with 60% surge. Does the surge decrease linearly with Crit as in your example (I didn't see Crit / Power / Mastery numbers, so I can only guess that is what you were going for given the even 10% decrease in surge at every step)? I don't think it does.

 

Are you going for sustained damage? Did you factor in Super Crit, Crit chance (you only showed surge)? How much surge and crit chance is gained for one point of Crit? How much damage is gained for one point of Power or Mastery? What is the size of your stat pool? How much alacrity are you working with? What is your rotation? What is your set bonus? All of these things (and more) factor into sustained damage over time. Bant went through all of this, painstakingly. You did not even mention them. Your equations are arbitrary with made-up numbers and they don't take most things into account.

 

 

I think it's important to bare in mind when discussing values of different stats that those stats that add to your bonus damage are notstacked on to the weapon damage. Power or Mastery will add to your bonus damagerange. it is not cumulative added damage. For example -

 

Your weapon damage bonus is 3630-3875 lets say. You add on two power augments which 24 points of damage to your damage bonus each so your new weapon bonus damage becomes 3678-3923.

 

You can end up doing the same amount of damage before and after you add the power augment depending on the RNG damage roll.

 

If before you added the power augments your damage roll could have resulted in doing 3750 from the damage bonus, even after you add the power augments you can still end up getting the same damage roll. It does not add damage to the roll it adds to the potential range of the bonus damage. It could end up resulting in greater damage with the power augments if your RNG rolls high enough, but it is not making you do an extra 48 points of damage [from the power augments] on every hit now. It is not guaranteed extra damage.

 

That said, however, while it doesn't guarantee higher damage on every hit [depending on RNG damage roll] it does guarantee that your minimum damage done will be higher. Where your old minimum damage bonus was 3630 and this that was a possible outcome from the roll it is no longer possible that you will do 3630 damage on the lowest possible damage roll, you will do at least 3678 damage on the same lowest possible damage roll. Your maximum potential bonus damage roll becomes higher but is not guaranteed, your minimum potential bonus damage roll is guaranteed to be higher however.

 

This is why there can be greater value to the tertiary stat bonus' because those bonus are guaranteed. If you have an alacrity bonus of 10%, that will always be in effect and effect your channels, and cooldown times, and the speed of your attacks. If you have a 40% crit chance, you will always have a 40% chance to land a crit [that roll for a crit might not fall within the 40% chance on a given attack but you will always have that chance. Your crit damage multiplier will always augment your crit damage by that amount, if it was 70% and your raise it to 71% you will always do 1 percent more critical damage on a successful crit than you would have had you not raised your crit multiplier.

 

If you play a class/spec that has 'windows' for added effects during the time the window is active [i.e. Carnage and Fury] the alacrity bonus can help you to maximize that time and better able to ensure you are able to use abilities/attacks within the span of time the window is active your DPS is increased .[this is of huge importance to Carnage and why alacrity is so important for that spec. Certain other specs do have this short of dynamic as well].

 

So much of fighting is based on RNG [damage rolls, crit chance, miss chance, defense chance, etc] so there are never guarantees, but obviously you want to give as great a chance as possible that the chance goes in your favor by increasing chance stats.

 

There's nothing wrong with adding to your damage bonus range, you want to add as much as you possibly can to it but before that can be maxed out you need to insure that your tertiary stats meet recommended values first so your not gimping yourself in any one area. You will do more damage with alacrity with a somewhat lower bonus damage that you will with a higher bonus damage without alacrity. It's very easy to see that by dummy parsing. When you start exceeding stats values that result in DR at the expense of other important stats your overall performance is effected negatively.

[kissingaiur]

Snip.

 

The point of teclado's post to address that all this information we are discussing has already been tested and retested literally 8000 times over and can be found in Bant's posts. Bant already addressed every single thing you can think of when crushing out this numbers or HPS/DPS. The fact that people are still pulling numbers out of thin air without any backbone means nothing at this point.

Edited May 12, 2017 by kissingaiur

[kissingaiur]

I think Operation Dummies and Combat Training Dummies don't tell you much about your actual damage output in the ''real'' world of SWTOR, but that's just my silly opinion.

 

 

So in other words: "Everyone is wrong but me because they can't comprehend the "real reality" of SWTOR". I guess in this alternate reality your math is the only math that works right?

 

I think that is the funniest comment I heard all day. Makes me chuckle.

Edited May 12, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Seterade]

Dummies aren't used accurate dmg pulls, their used for max dmg outputs. for an eample, my sin in deception pulls 8.7 dps. Now. I know that at max with free cast and a person out of dcds will get hit with 8.7... hopefully.

 

the point is only to know how much you are capable of, and how much your burst is vs another classes free cast. Its not pointless its usefull for gearing and class comparision.

 

now ingame, I was in a ranked and on my deception I pulled 4.6 dps on a guarded sorc hlr that went to acid. or once I pulled 7.8 dps in hatred in ranked with cleave, but this is not a dummy parse, its real application and a marker for my skill lvl. dummys are for other purposes, imo dummys are not a talent tool, they are a guide measure.

[yellow_]

the only stat that does not translate from a dummy to real play is alacrity because of the unique way that it works

 

if mastery does more damage than power on a dummy, it does more damage than power in pvp

 

it is totally worthwhile to be aware of the limits of dummy parse numbers but if you're going to use that gap to argue that crit is worthless, or that power does more dps than mastery then you fundamentally don't understand how the math here works (those are precisely the sort of determinations that dummy parse scripts are good for)

Edited May 12, 2017 by yellow_