KotFE for non-force characters? (no spoilers)

[Mashugana]

Does the KotFE story work for non-force users? I have not played it yet, but I have watched some of the videos to get an idea of the story. It seems that KotFE is pretty focused on my character using the force.

 

I have an agent - does the story work? Or is KotFE more fun the first time through with a Jedi/Sith?

 

Thanks

[perotta]

In my opinion - no, it doesn't. The story ups your non-force character power level (story-wise, there aren't any gameplay changes) to make sure your Outlander can handle all the challenges that Force users can. There is a technical explanation in-story for this but for me it's just an example of a very lazy writing. It's something one could find in a bad fanfic; the power discrepancy between Force users and non-forcers is huge in this universe and cannot be handwaved, thus the way KotFE handles it to make sure the story fits all classes is really clumsy.

 

It's like trying to fit a monkey, a dog and a mice in human-sized sweaters. It will look amusing for total 5 minutes, then it becomes awkward.

 

I feel like the Jedi Knight makes the most sense story-wise; KotFE feels like a sequel to your class storyline. The Warrior's is good as well. These two classes, due to their connection to the Emperor, make the story feel more personal and organic. Consular and Inquisitor don't require much handwaving, though in my opinion the story doesn't feel as good as for the Knight and the Warrior. The non-forcers? Sadly, no.

 

The only thing that could be said about the Agent's storyline in KotFE/ET is that in KotET there is a certain point at which you could reminisce about your own misadventures way back in the class storyline, maybe even feel for a certain character more than the other classes. But that's about it.

[JLazarillo]

I play almost everything. In terms of play, it's all about fun, and I can enjoy both. But I've said it before, I'll say it again, as many times as I need to, until people get the danged point: In terms of story, I actually think the Tech classes, if anything, are the better choice. I see three main arguments against the Tech classes, on these boards in general, and I honestly disagree with all three...heck, to some extent, I think some of them are even backwards and more justification for the Tech approach than the Force approach altogether.

 

POINT 1: POWER:

 

Frequently, people cite that a Trooper/Smuggler/Hunter/Agent shouldn't be able to physically compete with a Force-user. Now, I'm not an expert on the Star Wars EU, so I can't say how things apply there (I would imagine "inconsistently" given the wide number of people with differing opinions who are all involved), but looking at the movies, and looking at this game, there's not really much justification for it.

 

In the movies, Vader was able to no-sell Han in the movies, but that was during what was essentially an ambush (and in the previous movie, Han ambushed Vader, and somehow, the supposed combat-foresight and sense for maneuverability that the Force is claimed to give didn't do much for him when the tables were turned). We twice see Obi-Wan fight against people who don't use the Force in the prequels: against Jango (mostly a tie), and against Grevious (a more distinct notch in Obi-Wan's favor...but not one for the various Jedi Grevious claimed those sabers from...). So I don't see it there.

 

And in this game, it's even more clear that the Force allows for certain talents, to be certain, but is not an automatic problem solver. Even putting aside the various planetary stories, all of the Tech classes take down Jedi and/or Sith during their various class stories. Furthermore, the Force-using classes come up against bosses that they can't handle alone, despite them not having the Force. One of the strongest bosses you meet in the Knight story, for example, is Executor Krannis, who is just an exemplary-trained soldier. And it'll take multiple heroes of all types to take down, say, the two bounty hunters in Karagga's Palace. So while you might be able to call the game as a whole inconsistent with regards to the rest of the EU (which, again, I can't and won't speak for), if you make it all the way to KotFE Chapter XVI and only then say "wait, it makes no sense for my Smuggler to be able to face down Arcann!", then you don't seem to have been paying attention up until that point.

 

 

POINT 2: POTENTIAL:

 

"Only you have been worth my time", says Valkorion to the player character. He's an immortal Sith abomination, why would he have any interest in some grunt soldier, I see people ask. However, this is the one where it seems to me like people have it backwards. Looking at it from his perspective, he already has power, he already has an Empire, he has eternal life, he has no further need for pawns. Instead, he is looking for someone who piques his interest.

 

A Hunter, for example, has faced down and executed the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, and reshaped the very face of the galaxy by indirectly putting Saresh into power, sending the Empire reeling from an actually-aggressive Republic military effort. That's pretty amazing for someone who started out as a wannabe gunslinger on some backwater planet. On the other hand, a Knight tried to defeat Vitiate already twice, and failed both times. To Valkorion, both are ants. The Hunter might be a small sugar ant, but has still built an extremely elaborate underground anthill. The Knight might be one of those big stingy ones, but it spends its time just sort of ambling around, trying to sting through steel-toed boots. If you were Valkorion in this analogy and going to try to learn the secret of one or the other, which would be more interesting to you?

 

 

POINT 3: MYSTICISM:

 

The final point is the one I see least often made, but which I still don't think brings down Tech users either. Particularly, in KotFE Chapter XII, there's a whole "Dagobah" segment where the Outlander runs around the forest listening to various people talk about the Force and such. And I see people say that it doesn't make much sense for that to be relevant to, say, a Smuggler, who's just gonna shoot stuff. Or that same said Smuggler could walk away from the experience with a Magic Gun+3 of Arcann Slaying. Still, I don't think there's anything to unfitting there. Why shouldn't someone who has no experience with the Force lend an ear to people explaining how it connects to the conflict? A Consular in Chapter XI will listen to Jorgan and the exiles about tactical plans for the base assault, right? Saying the Smuggler can't regard what others say about the Force is saying like the Consular should just "use the Force" to ignore all the Skytroopers. Both are relevant, and both groups have important things to say, so class shouldn't impact your ability to regard them. Similarly, with regard to the weapon, a lightsaber is nothing more than a highly focused plasma torch...if it can be magical, there's no reason a Sniper Rifle couldn't be, too.

 

Now, I also see people claim, especially for this point "but my Agent wouldn't be interested in all that!", and that's fair, but I don't think it really makes for a reasonable argument for the game in general. There are plenty of choices and characterizations that don't make sense within the context of the story (heck, some of the ones you can actually make, especially several of the Dark Side choices, defy almost all reasonable logic). That a player does not want to yield their idea of characterization to the story is really a problem on the player end, not a problem with the story itself as it's presented. I could claim my Smuggler's a criminal who wouldn't care about his ship getting stolen, because he's a criminal anyway and he could just steal someone else's at the spaceport. I'd be pretty disappointed when the story made me go after "my" ship instead, huh? Couldn't even make it five minutes through the game.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by JLazarillo

[perotta]

(snip)

 

Allow me to argue with you a bit. There are many examples of non-forcers beating Force users in EU and in the game proper, but there are two issues I have with this. First, in my opinion, original class storylines had Techs going against Force users and winning too many times that it made no sense even back then. Not just because of power discrepancy between Force/non-Force users, but because of simple difference in experience. BH, for example, goes against a Battlemaster, and potentially a Darth, and wins both times... however said opponents are battle-hardened veterans who previously went against enemies far more powerful than your character and yet they somehow lose to you? It's not just that they are Force users, but they have to be older and more experienced than your character.

 

This ties to my second point which is: non-Forcers who go against Force-users have to rely on their skills, but also subterfuge, ambushes, underhanded tactics, and finally their tech. Think Smuggler on Tatooine: you are basically siccing the Jedi and the Sith on each other, instead of fighting them in a fair duel (like a Force-user might). Or better yet, Agent: at the end of Chapter 2 you can go against a Force user. How do you win? By forcing him to step back during the fight and locking him in a chamber with two turrets.

 

Tech classes don't need the Force to win, but they still need to work to achieve victory, just in a different way than say a Jedi Knight or a Sith Warrior. Which is exactly the problem with how KotFE handles them. It's plausible to assume that a Jedi or a Sith wouldn't need to adjust their tactics much when going against Arcann or one of the Zakuul Knights. But Tech classes would have to (especially in KotET). Yet as we see in story, they don't. Tech classes don't win due to their skill or wit or tactics. They win because of a convenient plot device.

[JLazarillo]

If your take on it is that the game has always made the Force less of an advantage than it "should" be then I can't really argue with you. That's your prerogative. To me, nothing in the portrayal of Force vs. Tech was really particularly immersion breaking or seemed to particularly contradict the portrayal of it in the original movies. The story is consistent throughout the game, and, thus, there's no reason an Agent or a Smuggler can't get just as much out of the story as a Knight or Inquisitor. That, I suppose, is our difference: "consistency" versus "accuracy". The former is more objective, whereas the latter is more about opinion, and everyone's entitled to theirs.

[SithKoriandr]

Let's not forget it's outright stated that Smuggler and Agent are no match for force users, and even said by the characters. Agent can't even kill the Darth at the end of Chapter 1, like all Force Users tend to do

[JLazarillo]

Let's not forget it's outright stated that Smuggler and Agent are no match for force users, and even said by the characters. Agent can't even kill the Darth at the end of Chapter 1, like all Force Users tend to do

Smuggler takes on two at a time after Voss (granted, s/he also has Rogun for backup, but it's not like he can use the Force either). And the Agent takes on the second strongest Sith in the setting at the end up chatper 1...not exactly at full potential. And they can choose to fight a lesser Darth instead, and have no problem killing her, that I can recall...

[Joluka]

Smuggler takes on two at a time after Voss (granted, s/he also has Rogun for backup, but it's not like he can use the Force either). And the Agent takes on the second strongest Sith in the setting at the end up chatper 1...not exactly at full potential. And they can choose to fight a lesser Darth instead, and have no problem killing her, that I can recall...

 

Yeah, this guy just rekt the "Force users don't make sense in KOTFE/ET" argument. Well done, you've made a believer out of me. I won't feel weird for running my beloved smuggler through the expacs now.

[JLazarillo]

Yeah, this guy just rekt the "Force users don't make sense in KOTFE/ET" argument. Well done, you've made a believer out of me. I won't feel weird for running my beloved smuggler through the expacs now.

Happy to be of service.

[casirabit]

I play almost everything. In terms of play, it's all about fun, and I can enjoy both. But I've said it before, I'll say it again, as many times as I need to, until people get the danged point: In terms of story, I actually think the Tech classes, if anything, are the better choice. I see three main arguments against the Tech classes, on these boards in general, and I honestly disagree with all three...heck, to some extent, I think some of them are even backwards and more justification for the Tech approach than the Force approach altogether.

 

POINT 1: POWER:

 

Frequently, people cite that a Trooper/Smuggler/Hunter/Agent shouldn't be able to physically compete with a Force-user. Now, I'm not an expert on the Star Wars EU, so I can't say how things apply there (I would imagine "inconsistently" given the wide number of people with differing opinions who are all involved), but looking at the movies, and looking at this game, there's not really much justification for it.

 

In the movies, Vader was able to no-sell Han in the movies, but that was during what was essentially an ambush (and in the previous movie, Han ambushed Vader, and somehow, the supposed combat-foresight and sense for maneuverability that the Force is claimed to give didn't do much for him when the tables were turned). We twice see Obi-Wan fight against people who don't use the Force in the prequels: against Jango (mostly a tie), and against Grevious (a more distinct notch in Obi-Wan's favor...but not one for the various Jedi Grevious claimed those sabers from...). So I don't see it there.

 

And in this game, it's even more clear that the Force allows for certain talents, to be certain, but is not an automatic problem solver. Even putting aside the various planetary stories, all of the Tech classes take down Jedi and/or Sith during their various class stories. Furthermore, the Force-using classes come up against bosses that they can't handle alone, despite them not having the Force. One of the strongest bosses you meet in the Knight story, for example, is Executor Krannis, who is just an exemplary-trained soldier. And it'll take multiple heroes of all types to take down, say, the two bounty hunters in Karagga's Palace. So while you might be able to call the game as a whole inconsistent with regards to the rest of the EU (which, again, I can't and won't speak for), if you make it all the way to KotFE Chapter XVI and only then say "wait, it makes no sense for my Smuggler to be able to face down Arcann!", then you don't seem to have been paying attention up until that point.

 

 

POINT 2: POTENTIAL:

 

"Only you have been worth my time", says Valkorion to the player character. He's an immortal Sith abomination, why would he have any interest in some grunt soldier, I see people ask. However, this is the one where it seems to me like people have it backwards. Looking at it from his perspective, he already has power, he already has an Empire, he has eternal life, he has no further need for pawns. Instead, he is looking for someone who piques his interest.

 

A Hunter, for example, has faced down and executed the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, and reshaped the very face of the galaxy by indirectly putting Saresh into power, sending the Empire reeling from an actually-aggressive Republic military effort. That's pretty amazing for someone who started out as a wannabe gunslinger on some backwater planet. On the other hand, a Knight tried to defeat Vitiate already twice, and failed both times. To Valkorion, both are ants. The Hunter might be a small sugar ant, but has still built an extremely elaborate underground anthill. The Knight might be one of those big stingy ones, but it spends its time just sort of ambling around, trying to sting through steel-toed boots. If you were Valkorion in this analogy and going to try to learn the secret of one or the other, which would be more interesting to you?

 

 

POINT 3: MYSTICISM:

 

The final point is the one I see least often made, but which I still don't think brings down Tech users either. Particularly, in KotFE Chapter XII, there's a whole "Dagobah" segment where the Outlander runs around the forest listening to various people talk about the Force and such. And I see people say that it doesn't make much sense for that to be relevant to, say, a Smuggler, who's just gonna shoot stuff. Or that same said Smuggler could walk away from the experience with a Magic Gun+3 of Arcann Slaying. Still, I don't think there's anything to unfitting there. Why shouldn't someone who has no experience with the Force lend an ear to people explaining how it connects to the conflict? A Consular in Chapter XI will listen to Jorgan and the exiles about tactical plans for the base assault, right? Saying the Smuggler can't regard what others say about the Force is saying like the Consular should just "use the Force" to ignore all the Skytroopers. Both are relevant, and both groups have important things to say, so class shouldn't impact your ability to regard them. Similarly, with regard to the weapon, a lightsaber is nothing more than a highly focused plasma torch...if it can be magical, there's no reason a Sniper Rifle couldn't be, too.

 

Now, I also see people claim, especially for this point "but my Agent wouldn't be interested in all that!", and that's fair, but I don't think it really makes for a reasonable argument for the game in general. There are plenty of choices and characterizations that don't make sense within the context of the story (heck, some of the ones you can actually make, especially several of the Dark Side choices, defy almost all reasonable logic). That a player does not want to yield their idea of characterization to the story is really a problem on the player end, not a problem with the story itself as it's presented. I could claim my Smuggler's a criminal who wouldn't care about his ship getting stolen, because he's a criminal anyway and he could just steal someone else's at the spaceport. I'd be pretty disappointed when the story made me go after "my" ship instead, huh? Couldn't even make it five minutes through the game.

 

 

Thank you. You made a better post than I can. One of my first characters that has completely finished both of the expansions was my main, a scoundrel healer.

[TalonVII]

Personally they should had 2 versions of KOTFE and KOTET, Force user and non force user. Cause this 1 story fits all crap really doesn't work.

[SithKoriandr]

Smuggler takes on two at a time after Voss (granted, s/he also has Rogun for backup, but it's not like he can use the Force either). And the Agent takes on the second strongest Sith in the setting at the end up chatper 1...not exactly at full potential. And they can choose to fight a lesser Darth instead, and have no problem killing her, that I can recall...

 

The Agent doesn't defeat the Darth in a fight. The Agent can't even kill the Darth. Agent has to trick them.

 

No one said, the force users couldn't be tricked.

 

Han had to take Darth Vader from a distance, by first warping in and then blasting him while he was focused on the force user.

[JLazarillo]

The Agent doesn't defeat the Darth in a fight. The Agent can't even kill the Darth. Agent has to trick them.

Nope Agent handles it pretty directly:

https://youtu.be/oqMwkaVCSMo?t=8m37s

[TalonVII]

The Agent doesn't defeat the Darth in a fight. The Agent can't even kill the Darth. Agent has to trick them.

 

No one said, the force users couldn't be tricked.

 

Han had to take Darth Vader from a distance, by first warping in and then blasting him while he was focused on the force user.

 

So the Agent doesn't get into a fight with Jadus then even with the tricking? And the Agent had to be brainwashed, why for craps and giggles? No cause even Keeper said "had to be brainwashed because it frightened the Dark Council that a cypher could take down a council member."